Ballasting

[Chris King]

Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
Glue and water?
Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
is correct?

I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.

Chris

--
Chris King
(remove nospam to email direct)

[Adrian]

In message <2012020921280714747-chris@nospamckingfreeonlinecouk>, Chris
King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> writes

>Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
>model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
>Glue and water?
>Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
>How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
>is correct?
>
>I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
>work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>

I mix mine by eye, but if you are using this method, remember to add a
few drops of washing up liquid to break down the surface tension.


Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

[Wolf K]

On 09/02/2012 4:28 PM, Chris King wrote:
> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> Glue and water?
> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy is
> correct?
>
> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>
> Chris

No need to measure if you use a 250ml glass jar: make a mark near the
top for "full", and a mark 1/2 way down for "1/2 full". Make more marks
(evenly spaced) if you want to make variable amounts of the mix. Then
just pour PVA in first, add water, and mix. Stretch clear plastic film
over the mouth of the jar before screwing on the lid, that will help
extend the life of the mix.

You'll be surprised how much glue the ballast soaks up. Basically, you
should add enough glue that the ballast appears to be swimming in it.
Some people spray the dry ballast with rubbing alcohol first, this
should make the glue wick into the ballast better. I've not tried that,
so I can't say.

Have fun.... ;-)

Wolf K.

[simon]

"Wolf K" <wek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:byXYq.29615$J12....@unlimited.newshosting.com...

Wood glue - that another name for PVA, cos its PVA you want.

Cheers,
Simon

[Chris Wilson]

On 9-Feb-2012, Adrian <bul...@ffoil.org.uk> wrote:

> I mix mine by eye, but if you are using this method, remember to add a
> few drops of washing up liquid to break down the surface tension.

Yup, only a drop or two is needed but it's vital. I have found though that a
mix of 20% PVA to 80% water works quite satisfactorily (using granite
chippings as ballast) - at least for my purposes, and of course it you
change your mind using a wallpaper stripper/scraper it's a lot, lot easier
to get off and return your baseboard to a useable form.

--

All the best,

Chris

[Chris King]

not sure I want to make it up in as large a quantity as that? (250ml)
I have a ballast spreading device where you pour the ballast in the
hopper then run it along the track to spread the ballast on both inside
and outside edges, after which you then apply the glue with a
dropper/or other applicator. I would prefer to do each track / oval /
section as I go along, and do it in small sections, so say I do all the
sidings/outer track first, then the inner or something. What do you use
to mix the solution/water in for a dropper etc? and if a small jar, how
do you get the ratio right, do I need to measure out xx ml of PVA and
xx ml of water then mix it? is it 50/50?

[simon]

"Chris King" <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2012020923322677209-chris@nospamckingfreeonlinecouk...

I use an old 250ml PVA bottle that has a dropper lid. Pour half to 2/3 rds
of contents into other container - or use for other things. Add couple of
drops washing liquid, add some water, give good shake. add some more water,
shake etc till bottle almost full.
Using seperate dropper would take ages. Tisnt an exact science, wap plenty
on as Wolf says and don't be suprised if you get through lots of it.

Cheers,
Simon

[Arthur Figgis]

On 09/02/2012 23:32, Chris King wrote:


What do you use to mix the
> solution/water in for a dropper etc?

Any random container to hand.

> and if a small jar, how do you get
> the ratio right, do I need to measure out xx ml of PVA and xx ml of
> water then mix it? is it 50/50?

Just chuck it so it looks about right. There is no need for precision
accuracy.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

[Matt]

I use 20% glue / 80% water - more or less. As others have said, ratio
really isn't that important. I just use an old Elmer's glue bottle
(white PVA glue), add water to an inch or so of glue, shake it up. It
lasts in the bottle until it's used up - in fact, I always keep a small
bottle of it mixed up. I don't bother with the dishwashing liquid - I
use an eyedropper to soak the ballast first with rubbing alcohol - do a
couple of feet, then come back and do the same two feet with the
glue/water mixture.

Matt

[Wolf K]

On 09/02/2012 6:32 PM, Chris King wrote:
[...]

> not sure I want to make it up in as large a quantity as that? (250ml)
> I have a ballast spreading device where you pour the ballast in the
> hopper then run it along the track to spread the ballast on both inside
> and outside edges, after which you then apply the glue with a dropper/or
> other applicator. I would prefer to do each track / oval / section as I
> go along, and do it in small sections, so say I do all the sidings/outer
> track first, then the inner or something. What do you use to mix the
> solution/water in for a dropper etc? and if a small jar, how do you get
> the ratio right, do I need to measure out xx ml of PVA and xx ml of
> water then mix it? is it 50/50?

Pour the PVA into the mixing container first, then add water, then stir.
I use a bamboo kitchen skewer, and rinse it under the tap after use.
Anyhow, the proportions aren't critical. If in doubt, add more water, a
more watery solution is better. The mix should be about the consistency
of whole milk, ie, slightly thicker than plain water. Cheap PVA is kinda
watery, so you use less water, the better stuff is quite thick, so you
use more water.

The detergent drops are essential, I should've mentioned them, thanks to
Simon et al for emphasising this.

Use whatever size jar is handy (ie, one that the missus won't miss).
250ml isn't that much. Really. As I said, it's amazing how much mixed
glue it takes. Add enough glue to the ballast that it comes slightly
above the top of the ballast layer.

But if you don't want to make that much at a time, just make the "full"
mark lower down the side of the jar. Or make four marks, at full, 3/4,
1/2, and 1/4. Then make only half a jar at a time. I recommend a glass
jar because it's easy to see how much you've poured into it. If you use
an opaque container, such as a margarine tub, make marks on the
stir-stick. The mix can be poured into a smaller container (the small
yogourt tubs are good for this) for working on the layout.You can store
the mix for quite a long time,e specially if you ue palstic wrap between
the jar and the cap.

HTH,
Wolf K.

[Larry Blanchard]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King wrote:

> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> Glue and water?

Some folks do use wood (white) glue, others use matte medium. Both will
defend their choice to the death :-).

Both work. I just wanted to make you aware that an alternative existed
if you didn't already know. Should you decide to use matte medium, Mod
Podge (Walmart and elsewhere) is the same stuff and a lot cheaper.
Either one is usually mixed 2-4 parts water to one of MM/MP.

Adding a little detergent as suggested is a good idea. I've had better
luck saturating the ballast with rubbing alcohol first and then dribbling
on the MM/MP/WG. Do a couple of inches at a time so the alcohol doesn't
evaporate.

Have fun.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

[Robert Heller]

At Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000 Chris King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> Glue and water?

White Glue (eg your basic Elmers Glue All). Not the *yellow* wood glue.

> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
> is correct?

It is not terribly critical. I bought a gallon of Elmers at an art
supply store (Michael's) and have a pile of old smaller Elmers bottles.
I pour one (little) bottle about 1/2 full and then fill the bottle the
rest of the way with watter. Add a drop or two of dish soap. Close the
cap and shake well. So long as the cap is well closed, it will keep
almost indefinatly.

>
> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.

Don't sweat it. It is not really that critical.

>
> Chris
>

--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System
http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows
hel...@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 9, 10:34 pm, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Wolf K" <weki...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

Errm PVA will certainly glue wood but wood glue is not, by any means,
always PVA.

MBQ

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 10, 12:53 am, Larry Blanchard <lbla...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King wrote:
> > Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> > model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> > Glue and water?
>
> Some folks do use wood (white) glue, others use matte medium.  Both will
> defend their choice to the death :-).

And Copydex and water is another.

MBQ

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 9, 9:28 pm, Chris King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk>
wrote:

> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> Glue and water?
> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
> is correct?
>
> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.

No need to be too anal about it. There is no correct recipe.

I would test some hidden sections first to get the hang of it and
check what colour the ballast turns when coated in glue. If you intend
to paint it then that's not too much of a problem.

Add a tiny drop of washing up liquid to help it wet. I also use a
plant sprayer after applying the ballast to damp everything down with
plain water. This is a further aid to wetting and helps stop the top
layer of ballast from floating away.

MBQ

[Robert Heller]

At Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:26:33 -0800 (PST) "manat...@hotmail.com" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 9, 9:28=A0pm, Chris King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk>

> wrote:
> > Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> > model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> > Glue and water?
> > Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> > How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
> > is correct?
> >
> > I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> > work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>
> No need to be too anal about it. There is no correct recipe.
>
> I would test some hidden sections first to get the hang of it and
> check what colour the ballast turns when coated in glue. If you intend
> to paint it then that's not too much of a problem.

Elmers (white) glue dries clear.

>
> Add a tiny drop of washing up liquid to help it wet. I also use a
> plant sprayer after applying the ballast to damp everything down with
> plain water. This is a further aid to wetting and helps stop the top
> layer of ballast from floating away.
>
> MBQ
>
>

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 10, 1:04 pm, Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:

> At Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:26:33 -0800 (PST) "manatba...@hotmail.com" <manatba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 9, 9:28=A0pm, Chris King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> > > model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> > > Glue and water?
> > > Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> > > How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
> > > is correct?
>
> > > I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> > > work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>
> > No need to be too anal about it. There is no correct recipe.
>
> > I would test some hidden sections first to get the hang of it and
> > check what colour the ballast turns when coated in glue. If you intend
> > to paint it then that's not too much of a problem.
>
> Elmers (white) glue dries clear.

Irrelevant.

Some of the granite(?) based ballast materials take on a decided green
cast when gluled down.

MBQ

[David Littlewood]

In article
<68efb713-6abb-4bc3...@n8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
"manat...@hotmail.com" <manat...@hotmail.com> writes

When I made an N gauge layout (rather more years ago than I care to
remember) I mixed the fine ballast chips with Cascamite wood glue (about
3 parts ballast to one of adhesive, may even have been weaker, you'll
have to experiment). This is a powdered glue, just add water. When the
ballast has been coaxed into shape, just drop or spray water containing
a drop or two of detergent on to the ballast.

The advantage of this is that the water spray is less likely to disturb
the neat ballast shoulders. The disadvantage is that Cascamite (which
IIRC is a urea/formaldehyde, or resorcinol/formaldehyde glue) is more
expensive than PVA. Not even sure if it's still available, but I'm sure
some powdered wood glue will be.

David
--
David Littlewood

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 10, 1:53 pm, David Littlewood <da...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <68efb713-6abb-4bc3-b747-05400790e...@n8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

http://www.axminster.co.uk/cascamite-powdered-resin-wood-glue-prod21688/

MBQ

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:01:07 -0800, manat...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> Elmers (white) glue dries clear.
>
> Irrelevant.
>

Some have reported that using white glue made the ballast shiny. It is
purported that the reason is insufficient dilution.

> Some of the granite(?) based ballast materials take on a decided green
> cast when gluled down.

Be sure not to glul your ballast!

[Chris Wilson]

On 10-Feb-2012, "manat...@hotmail.com" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Elmers (white) glue dries clear.

Just for claritys sake I'm pretty sure that this is an American formulation
of PVA (the thread has been posted to both groups)

> Irrelevant.
>
> Some of the granite(?) based ballast materials take on a decided green
> cast when gluled down.

You're quite correct but that's why god invented airbrushes, my decidedly
green granite soon turned muddy brown and mouldy green on demand :-)

I have to say though that using granite does nothing to lower noise levels,
I may try something else for my next layout.

[simon]

"Chris Wilson" <cwi...@britwar.couk> wrote in message
news:9pl2l...@mid.individual.net...

Wondered about that, suspect its cos track in contact with ballast makes
good sound board. If could keep them seperate in some way - no dont know
how, then vibration of track might not carry.

Real granite is to coarse grained for correct texture, average crystal size
> 1mm, so would appear as large stones of one mineral (ignore pegmatites as
rare used as ballast). Need the medium to fine grained equivalent, without
checking texts would be somewhere between dolerite and rhyolite. Colours can
be black and white, or nice red/pink granite from Shap :-)

Cheers,
Simon

[Chris Wilson]

On 10-Feb-2012, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:

> Wondered about that, suspect its cos track in contact with ballast makes
> good sound board. If could keep them seperate in some way - no dont know
> how, then vibration of track might not carry.

Well the last time I laid ballast it was on 1/8th inch cork over a 3/4 inch
MDF board with conventional open 2x1 and 2x2 inch framing supported every 12
inches 44 inches from a concrete garage floor ... running a long train could
sound like a bloody machine gun at times.

> Real granite is to coarse grained for correct texture, average crystal
> size
> > 1mm, so would appear as large stones of one mineral (ignore pegmatites
> > as
> rare used as ballast). Need the medium to fine grained equivalent, without
>
> checking texts would be somewhere between dolerite and rhyolite. Colours
> can
> be black and white, or nice red/pink granite from Shap :-)

I used a combination of stuff nominally scalled for OO and N, the N looked a
lot better on a OO layout and looked a lot closer to scale but of course
although I do confess to owning several micrometers I do tend to ajust
things with a big hammer :-)

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:32:37 +0000, Chris Wilson wrote:

> I have to say though that using granite does nothing to lower noise
> levels, I may try something else for my next layout.

Supposedly, matte medium is quieter than white glue because it doesn't
dry as rigid, but I've never done a comparison test so it may or may not
be so. I can't think the difference would be major.

[Chris Wilson]

On 11-Feb-2012, Larry Blanchard <lbl...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> > I have to say though that using granite does nothing to lower noise
> > levels, I may try something else for my next layout.
>
> Supposedly, matte medium is quieter than white glue because it doesn't
> dry as rigid, but I've never done a comparison test so it may or may not
> be so. I can't think the difference would be major.

I'd heard that to, copydex as well remains elastic (but smelling of cats)
but I was thinking of using something else for my next layout instead of
granite, somthing softer.

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:52:33 +0000, Chris Wilson wrote:

>> Supposedly, matte medium is quieter than white glue because it doesn't
>> dry as rigid, but I've never done a comparison test so it may or may
>> not be so. I can't think the difference would be major.
>
> I'd heard that to, copydex as well remains elastic (but smelling of
> cats) but I was thinking of using something else for my next layout
> instead of granite, somthing softer.

IIRC, there was quite a discussion a while back on noise control. I
don't remember if it was here or on one of the Yahoo groups like layout
construction.

Seems the main conclusion reached was that the track/roadbed needed to be
decoupled from the benchwork. But I don't think anyone came up with a
satisfactory way to do that.

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 10, 11:13 pm, "Chris Wilson" <cwil...@britwar.couk> wrote:
> On 10-Feb-2012, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Wondered about that, suspect its cos track in contact with ballast makes
> > good sound board. If could keep them seperate in some way - no dont know
> > how, then vibration of track might not carry.
>
> Well the last time I laid ballast it was on 1/8th inch cork over a 3/4 inch
> MDF board with conventional open 2x1 and 2x2 inch framing supported every 12
> inches 44 inches from a concrete garage floor ... running a long train could
> sound like a bloody machine gun at times.

Iain Rice's track building book described a scheme for "floating"
track.

MBQ

[Wolf K]

On 11/02/2012 1:31 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:52:33 +0000, Chris Wilson wrote:
>
>>> Supposedly, matte medium is quieter than white glue because it doesn't
>>> dry as rigid, but I've never done a comparison test so it may or may
>>> not be so. I can't think the difference would be major.
>>
>> I'd heard that to, copydex as well remains elastic (but smelling of
>> cats) but I was thinking of using something else for my next layout
>> instead of granite, somthing softer.
>
> IIRC, there was quite a discussion a while back on noise control. I
> don't remember if it was here or on one of the Yahoo groups like layout
> construction.

There were many attempts to reduce noise back in the 60s and 70s,
reported both in the commercial press, and in the NMRA Bulletin. My main
conclusion: sound is amplified when surfaces are free to move. Thus:

a) Solid-top baseboards are like sounding boards --> use open grid bases.
b) Track nails and the like can couple ballast strip and sectional or
flex track to the sub-roadbed/baseboard --> glue ballast strip to
sub-roadbed, and track to ballast strip, using pins merely to hold it
while the glue sets.
c) The mass of the track structure affects its ability to act as a
sounding board --> use 1/2" or heavier sub-roadbed. Fasten solidly to
grid at frequent intervals, thus making the grid part of the mass that
the sound generator (the motor in the engine) must move.

I've also noticed that as scenery is added to a layout, it tends to
become quieter.

>> Seems the main conclusion reached was that the track/roadbed needed to be
>> decoupled from the benchwork. But I don't think anyone came up with a
>> satisfactory way to do that.

What's needed an inefficient sound transmitter linking track to base.
That means both soft materials, such as cork, and flexible glues, such a
silicone bathroom caulking.

HTH
Wolf K.

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King
<ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

>Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
>model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
>Glue and water?

>Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
>How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
>is correct?
>
>I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
>work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.

I use an 8:1 mix of PVA bought by the gallon from a builders'
merchant, and water. The obligatory British Standard Drop of washing
up liquid is added off course. I make up stock, 0.5l at a time, it
lasts a couple of months without settling out if kept in a closed
container (I use a plastic milk bottle).

Before adding glue, I recommend spraying the dry ballast with a mist
of "wet water" (water plus a drop of washing up liquid). I bought an
atomising spray from Hobbycraft which is good for this, it holds 125ml
of water, you pump it with the lid, and then spray. A squirter of the
type used for spraying domestic cleaners and such won't be much good,
the drops are too big and disturb the ballast. You need a fine mist.

I then use a dropper or for longer runs (which most of mine are, given
the size of my layout) a bottle with a very fine tip. Drop close to
the rails, again to avoid disturbing the ballast. You can fix minor
dislodged bits with a stainless clay moulding tool dipped in water.

Actually the way I do it starts by painting the baseboard with black
Gesso, then PVA, add a thin layer of ballast well pressed down, apply
wet water and thinned down glue and allow to dry. This base layer of
ballast stops the dry ballast from flowing away from the tracks as you
place it.

Then I add the main ballast, and use a children's sponge paintbrush to
brush off the sleepers, and a stiff stippling brush to clear it away
from the chairs. The result is usually pretty good. It took me a while
to get to this technique, with some of the older bits it took ages to
get the ballast off the sleepers.

Guy
--
Guy Chapman, http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
The usenet price promise: all opinions are guaranteed
to be worth at least what you paid for them.

[Chris Wilson]

On 11-Feb-2012, "manat...@hotmail.com" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Well the last time I laid ballast it was on 1/8th inch cork over a 3/4
> > inch
> > MDF board with conventional open 2x1 and 2x2 inch framing supported
> > every 12
> > inches 44 inches from a concrete garage floor ... running a long train
> > could
> > sound like a bloody machine gun at times.
>
> Iain Rice's track building book described a scheme for "floating"
> track.

My last layout had to be stong enough to stand on in order to reach shelves
above it :-)

[Robert Heller]

2" rigid foam insulation is pretty strong stuff.

[Robert Heller]

Rigid foam insulation rather than wood under the roadbed... Eg replace
the 'traditional' sheet of plywood (which is an excelent sounding
board) with a sheet of foam insulation (which "sucks" as a sounding board).

>
> HTH
> Wolf K.

[Chris King]

On 2012-02-11 22:46:25 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? said:

> On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King
> <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
>> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
>> Glue and water?
>> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
>> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
>> is correct?
>>
>> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
>> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>
>

Thanks all for the tips on PVA glue and mixture, starting to get the
hang of it.

Now I am deep into PVA and ballast, whats the easiest/cleanest way to
remove the PVA from the rails after its dry? I know you can use emery
paper (fine), any other solvents/solutions or mixtures you recommend or
suggest?


--
Chris King
(remove nospam to email direct)

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:53:55 +0000, Chris King

<ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

>On 2012-02-11 22:46:25 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? said:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King
>> <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
>>> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
>>> Glue and water?
>>> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
>>> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
>>> is correct?
>>>
>>> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
>>> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>>
>>
>
>Thanks all for the tips on PVA glue and mixture, starting to get the
>hang of it.
>
>Now I am deep into PVA and ballast, whats the easiest/cleanest way to
>remove the PVA from the rails after its dry? I know you can use emery
>paper (fine), any other solvents/solutions or mixtures you recommend or
>suggest?

First up, do it before it dries! A damp cloth wound round the fingers
so it doesn't dangle and brush the ballast away, rubbed along the rail
heads, keeps them clean.

If it has dried on the rails I use a Stanley knife blade or a scalpel
to slice it off.

A bit on the rail sides is not such a problem as long as the glue was
well dilutes - if it is blobby then pick it off with tweezers, but a
thin layer of thinned white glue on the sides will just make
weathering easier.

[Wolf K]

On 22/02/2012 5:24 PM, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:53:55 +0000, Chris King

[...]

>> Thanks all for the tips on PVA glue and mixture, starting to get the
>> hang of it.
>>
>> Now I am deep into PVA and ballast, whats the easiest/cleanest way to
>> remove the PVA from the rails after its dry? I know you can use emery
>> paper (fine), any other solvents/solutions or mixtures you recommend or
>> suggest?
>
> First up, do it before it dries! A damp cloth wound round the fingers
> so it doesn't dangle and brush the ballast away, rubbed along the rail
> heads, keeps them clean.

A piece of soft pine rubbed/slid along the rails will sorta peel off the
semi-dried stuff. Hold it at an angle. "Sharpen" it once in a while.

[....]

HTH
Wolf K.

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 22, 9:53 pm, Chris King <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 2012-02-11 22:46:25 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? said:
>
> > On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:28:07 +0000, Chris King
> > <ch...@nospam.cking.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Just about to start doing the ballasting on my now pinned down/laid
> >> model railway, I understand from research you need to mix 50/50 of Wood
> >> Glue and water?
> >> Whats the best way to mix this? I dont want to make too much..
> >> How do you measure it correctly etc etc, to make sure the consistancy
> >> is correct?
>
> >> I have a dropper to apply the mixture when done, but I was trying to
> >> work out how to measure the correct fluid-ounces etc.
>
> Thanks all for the tips on PVA glue and mixture, starting to get the
> hang of it.
>
> Now I am deep into PVA and ballast, whats the easiest/cleanest way to
> remove the PVA from the rails after its dry? I know you can use emery

Noooooooooo! Never use anything abrasive to clean the rails, despite
what Peco will sell you.

Don't let it happen in the first place. If that's difficult then use
artist's masking fluid.

MBQ

[simon]

<manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0795a75-efe7-4634...@m24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

==================================
As many opinions as replies, this being another of the great debates.
Peco rail cleaner myself, followed by kitchen roll - thats after you've
removed the blobs. Continue to use as and when.

Cheers,
Simon

[Keith Patrick]

Have seen it somewhere that a very light coat of oil, sort you would use to
oil a bike or similar, smeared onto the railtop with a cloth, will prevent
anything adhering to the rail top. Also useful prior to adding a rust effect
to the rail sides, as the paint will not adhere.
"simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:J8WdnUJmMaQgCNvS...@bt.com...

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:07:46 -0500, Wolf K <wek...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

I have also in the past used a rectangle of offcut Sundeala soaked in
Carr's railclean and rubbed firmly up and down the rails.

[simon]

"Keith Patrick" <patrick...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:BcidncpEscGSCtvS...@bt.com...

> Have seen it somewhere that a very light coat of oil, sort you would use
> to oil a bike or similar, smeared onto the railtop with a cloth, will
> prevent anything adhering to the rail top. Also useful prior to adding a
> rust effect to the rail sides, as the paint will not adhere.

Don't think thats a good idea, that sort of oil should be kept away from
anything to do with model railways. Will also get your tracks/wheels to hold
on to every bit of dust available. Dust giving poor conduction, sparks,
carbon etc etc.

Cheers,
Simon

[Chris King]

Dont worry I havent used anything abrasive, I just mentioned it as
'what I read/hear' I would prefer 'rag' wipe solution something like
that.. been using a track rubber to get some of it off :)

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 23, 10:06 pm, "simon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Keith Patrick" <patrickinpo...@btinternet.com> wrote in message

I *hope* the intended advice ws to clean it off afterwards :-)

Having said that, Railzip, anyone? That's just some kind of oil, isn't
it?

MBQ

[simon]

<manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ae9f55d-9025-42d5...@z7g2000pbr.googlegroups.com...

==================

Hopefully it would only take several months or years to get rid of it -
washing up liquid perhaps except that leaves its own film - reminds of
swallowing spider to catch a fly ..
But why put it on in the first place. Quick wipe with kitchen roll removes
most paint, rest with normal cleaning (track rubber).

Cheers,
Simon

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:31:54 +0000, simon wrote:

> Having said that, Railzip, anyone? That's just some kind of oil, isn't
> it?
>
> MBQ
>
> ==================
>
> Hopefully it would only take several months or years to get rid of it -

Maybe it didn't make it to your side of the pond, but quite a few years
ago there was a big brouhaha about Wahl Clipper Oil on the rails. Some
swore by it, some swore at it.

But more recently, there was an article in MR (IIRC) that suggested MAAS
polishing cream to prevent rail corrosion. I haven't tried it yet, but
intend to. It might prevent paint from sticking.

[Ezra Kowadlo]

A friend just came back from the US and brought back No-Ox.

Stops corrosion and oxidation of Nickel Silver model railway rails.

http://sanchem.com/

http://www.sanchem.com/ox.html

[Jane Sullivan]

Sounds like this is ideal for my garden railway.

--
Jane

[Larry Blanchard]

Hi Ezra, fancy meeting you here :-).

I looked at the website and it doesn't say anything about conductivity
for the standard product. They do have a special product for electrical
contacts, but it's a grease. Or a wax, they can't seem to make up their
minds :-). Here's what the website says:

"NO-OX-ID A-Special is a soft, wax based rust preventative and lubricant
that contains an active rust inhibitor and small amount of solvent for
ease of application. This corrosion resistant coating can be applied by
spray or brush application. NO-OX-ID controls corrosion by leaving a
thick, semi-transparent, non-drying barrier coating that retains its anti
rust properties indefinitely.

A-Special Electrical Grade

NO-OX-ID "A-SPECIAL" is the electrical contact grease of choice in new
electrical installations and maintenance because of its excellent
performance in keeping metals free from corrosion."

Is the special what your friend bought? Has he tried it yet?

[Ezra Kowadlo]

Larry,

I will ask him.

See ya round.

Ezra

[Ezra Kowadlo]

Here is my friends response. He has tried some and found it works well.

"It is the last one – NO-OX ID A Special. You clean track and wheels
thoroughly first, place a small amount on a section of track and run
your locos all over the layout. Then let it dry for 24 hours, then wipe
the rails thoroughly to remove any excess".

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:48:56 +1100, Ezra Kowadlo wrote:

> Here is my friends response. He has tried some and found it works well.
>
> "It is the last one – NO-OX ID A Special. You clean track and wheels
> thoroughly first, place a small amount on a section of track and run
> your locos all over the layout. Then let it dry for 24 hours, then wipe
> the rails thoroughly to remove any excess".

OK, so that gives us two known corrosion preventers. The NO-OX and the
MAAS. I'll try MAAS shortly and report back.

Funny, since NO-OX is a grease, and even wiping leaves a thin film, it
would seem that the proponents of Wahl Clipper Oil might have been
correct :-).

I'm going to post the info in rec.models.railroad and in one or two of
the Yahoo forums. Always nice to find new ways to solve old problems.

[MartinS]

Larry Blanchard <lbl...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Ezra Kowadlo wrote:
>
>> Here is my friends response. He has tried some and found it works
>> well.
>>

>> "It is the last one 鈥" NO-OX ID A Special. You clean track and

>> wheels thoroughly first, place a small amount on a section of track
>> and run your locos all over the layout. Then let it dry for 24 hours,
>> then wipe the rails thoroughly to remove any excess".
>
> OK, so that gives us two known corrosion preventers. The NO-OX and
> the MAAS. I'll try MAAS shortly and report back.
>
> Funny, since NO-OX is a grease, and even wiping leaves a thin film, it
> would seem that the proponents of Wahl Clipper Oil might have been
> correct :-).
>
> I'm going to post the info in rec.models.railroad and in one or two of
> the Yahoo forums. Always nice to find new ways to solve old problems.

Another recommended product is LPS-1, a lightweight greaseless spray
lubricant that resists oil and dust build-up, cleans and displaces
moisture, and is a fast-acting penetrant. It's made in the USA; I found
it in Canada at TSC Hardware. It's available in the UK from
http://www.cromwell.co.uk. See also:

http://www.lpslabs.com/product_pg/lubricants_pg/LPS1.html

http://users.frii.com/gbooth/Trains/ColoradoAndSouthern/Tips/TrackCleaning/lps1.htm

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/2726?page=1
- a discussion that mentions both NO-OX and LPS-1.

--
Martin S.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:01:11 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<lbl...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:48:56 +1100, Ezra Kowadlo wrote:
>
>> Here is my friends response. He has tried some and found it works well.
>>
>> "It is the last one – NO-OX ID A Special. You clean track and wheels
>> thoroughly first, place a small amount on a section of track and run
>> your locos all over the layout. Then let it dry for 24 hours, then wipe
>> the rails thoroughly to remove any excess".
>
>OK, so that gives us two known corrosion preventers. The NO-OX and the
>MAAS. I'll try MAAS shortly and report back.
>
>Funny, since NO-OX is a grease, and even wiping leaves a thin film, it
>would seem that the proponents of Wahl Clipper Oil might have been
>correct :-).

Peco market Electrolube (now Powerlube) which I think is the same as
Wahl Clipper oil.

I think the original supplier is a company called Electrolube, whose
site says...

Contact lubricants are specially formulated greases and oils that
reduce friction and enhance the electrical performance of current
carrying metal interfaces in switches and connectors. Electrolube
products are electrically insulative in thick films, preventing
tracking. In ultra thin films, i.e. between closed metal contacts,
they allow the current flow, owing to the ‘Quantum Tunnelling Effect’.
They also exhibit a neutral pH thereby avoiding surface corrosion.

The effectiveness of even perfectly designed switches can be improved
by contact lubricants and, when considered at design stage,
significant production cost savings can be achieved by the use of less
expensive plastics and contact metals.

Tests have shown that contact lubrication can extend the lifetime of
switches by more than 300%, producing excellent performance under all
circumstances and preventing the need for expensive maintenance.

[MartinS]

Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

I use Peco Electrolube on gears and bearings, but I don't know if it
would help on the rails or wheel treads.

--
Martin S.

[manat...@hotmail.com]

On Feb 27, 6:54 pm, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:01:11 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <lbla...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:48:56 +1100, Ezra Kowadlo wrote:
>
> >> Here is my friends response. He has tried some and found it works well.
>
> >> "It is the last one – NO-OX ID A Special. You clean track and wheels
> >> thoroughly first, place a small amount on a section of track and run
> >> your locos all over the layout. Then let it dry for 24 hours, then wipe
> >> the rails thoroughly to remove any excess".
>
> >OK, so that gives us two known corrosion preventers.  The NO-OX and the
> >MAAS.  I'll try MAAS shortly and report back.
>
> >Funny, since NO-OX is a grease, and even wiping leaves a thin film, it
> >would seem that the proponents of Wahl Clipper Oil might have been
> >correct :-).
>
> Peco market Electrolube (now Powerlube) which I think is the same as
> Wahl Clipper oil.

I don't think so. Clipper oil is just a white mineral oil. Wahl is
just a popular brand. Every electric razor I have bough comes with a
small bottle of oil. I currently use Braun oil to lubricate locos, but
not as a contact cleaner/enhancer nor as a track cleaner.

MBQ