Bay Tree

[Nick Odell]

Hello! Anybody reading the subject line will know exactly what the problem is: it's grown way too big and it's smothering the neighbouring trees. I like to pop out into the back garden from time to time and pick a few, fresh leaves for cooking so I don't want to get rid of it completely but it just can't go on the way it is.

It stands over five metres tall - two metres of which are plain trunk before the foliage begins. My thoughts are either to take it right down to ground level and see if I can train the suckers around the roots into some sort of shrub-like appearance or alternatively to get rid of the suckers and cut it down until I have a stump to pollard.

Will a bay tree pollard? I really don't know - which is why I'm asking uk.rec.gardening for advice. Should I train the suckers or pollard the stump? Or would I be better off doing something completely different?

Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

Thanks,

Nick
nicko...@yahoo.ca

[Jeff Layman]

Mine was about the same height as yours when I had it cut down to about
2 metres. It did, however, have low branches and no plain trunk.

I would be surprised if yours couldn't be pollarded in the same way as
mine, or even coppiced to a low stool/stump. In any case, have a look
round and I'm sure you'll find umpteen bay seedlings growing nearby. Why
not pot up a few to act as a reserve if whatever you do to your bay tree
kills it?

--

Jeff

[N_Cook]

On 17/07/2023 20:03, Nick Odell wrote:

After finding the local sewer pipe run, I realised a bay tree was
growing right on top, so had to go.
I cut it down to a stump, but it survived loads of copper nails I
hammered in the core wood and periphry of the stump.
Despite the copper the multiple shoots that have grown over the years,
is managable by less than saw.

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

[Chris Green]

We wish ours was that desperate to grow! :-)

However they are quite difficult to kill off, we thought ours was
quite dead when we moved it from a (huge) pot to the ground but it has
produced new leaves and looks OK, but it's still only 2ft tall after
many years.

--
Chris Green
·

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <csrhoj-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
>>
>We wish ours was that desperate to grow! :-)
>
>However they are quite difficult to kill off, we thought ours was
>quite dead when we moved it from a (huge) pot to the ground but it has
>produced new leaves and looks OK, but it's still only 2ft tall after
>many years.

Odd. They take a little while to gest established, but normally
they grow pretty rapidly.

As others have said, you can pollard, coppice, clip and otherwise
mutilate a bay tree, and it will regrow with vigour (with the usual
rare exception). They make a good hedge for that reason.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Jeff Layman]

I was going to ask about that. There are lots of recommendations for
hedges of Prunus laurocerasus or lusitanica (Cherry or Portuguese
laurel), but I've never seen Prunus nobilis (Bay laurel) proposed. I
see, though, that many hedging suppliers list it.

I don't remember ever seeing a hedge of Bay laurel, but might have
assumed it's one of the others (even though the leaves are darker with
pointed ends, and not as shiny). Do any of the bigger country houses or
gardens have one?

As you say, they grow pretty quickly. I had one plant about 1.5 metres
high which had been in a 30cm pot for years. When I put it in the ground
it reached 5 metres within 4 years, and was 3m wide! I hack it back
every couple of years to around 3x2 metres. I used to put the pruned
branches outside for anyone to take instead of them having to buy silly
little packets of leaves. But nobody ever took any, so I don't bother
now and just shred them.

--

Jeff

[RustyHinge]

On 17/07/2023 20:03, Nick Odell wrote:

> Hello! Anybody reading the subject line will know exactly what the problem is: it's grown way too big and it's smothering the neighbouring trees. I like to pop out into the back garden from time to time and pick a few, fresh leaves for cooking so I don't want to get rid of it completely but it just can't go on the way it is.
>

> It stands over five metres tall - two metres of which are plain trunk before the foliage begins. My thoughts are either to take it right down to ground level and see if I can train the suckers around the roots into some sort of shrub-like appearance or alternatively to get rid of the suckers and cut it down until I have a stump to pollardb.

>
> Will a bay tree pollard? I really don't know - which is why I'm asking uk.rec.gardening for advice. Should I train the suckers or pollard the stump? Or would I be better off doing something completely different?
>
> Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

My experience of bay is that whatever you do to it, it will try and
re-try to return as a compact thicket of nice straight(ish) suckers
surrounding a trunk (assuming you haven't removed the main lump).

I bought a whip some years ago but a hard frost killed it - but only
above the ground.

The following year several suckers marched forth and have grown to be in
danger of interfering with the telephone wires. I shall poll it, making
a rather high pollard - but only to a) not interfere with BT's wires and
b) grow stout enough at height to carve into a nice strait,fragrant stick.

Bay is one of the most pliable and biddable of trees/shrubs/etc -
all-round good thing.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

[RustyHinge]

Don't blink...

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 17/07/2023 20:03, Nick Odell wrote:

I never let mine get above above 2 meters, but I hacked it severely and
it didnt miss a beat.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/07/2023 08:34, Chris Green wrote:

I had a similar experience with a chestnut tree. Friend gave me two in
pots many years ago.. One is now 4 meters high but the other has stuck
at two. I think if the roots get too bound that's it, forever

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <u95nea$1jfbg$2...@dont-email.me>,

Jeff Layman <Je...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> As others have said, you can pollard, coppice, clip and otherwise
>> mutilate a bay tree, and it will regrow with vigour (with the usual
>> rare exception). They make a good hedge for that reason.
>
>I was going to ask about that. There are lots of recommendations for
>hedges of Prunus laurocerasus or lusitanica (Cherry or Portuguese
>laurel), but I've never seen Prunus nobilis (Bay laurel) proposed. I
>see, though, that many hedging suppliers list it.
>
>I don't remember ever seeing a hedge of Bay laurel, but might have
>assumed it's one of the others (even though the leaves are darker with
>pointed ends, and not as shiny). Do any of the bigger country houses or
>gardens have one?

The only one I have seen was in Brittany, and I thought "That's a neat
idea." Obviously, it is like the laurels, and looks better if hand
prined rather than clipped.

A minor correction: Laurus nobilis, not Prunus.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Nick Odell]

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions. It looks as if the bay is pretty foolproof - but then you haven't seen this fool in action in the garden.

I plan to take it down from the top - far too risky IMO to chop it down lumberjack-style - and stop when I think I've taken off enough. Or when I reach the ground, whichever comes first.

And just in case Sod's law says my bay will be that one which commits suicide on the gardener, I'll pot up a couple of seedlings first.

From what I've been reading it seems this is the time of year for taking such drastic steps so once the rain clears I'll get on with it

Thanks again,

Nick

[Jeff Layman]

Of course! Careless of me...

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.

--

Jeff

[The Natural Philosopher]

A friend who just died had one partially of bay, and I have a bay which
is part of a hedge too.
I think the issue is it doesn't look as nice as some very similar
laurels, so why bother?

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

[alan_m]

On 18/07/2023 10:33, Nick Maclaren wrote:

> As others have said, you can pollard, coppice, clip and otherwise
> mutilate a bay tree, and it will regrow with vigour (with the usual
> rare exception). They make a good hedge for that reason.

I'm not sure which variety of bay I have but I hack it regularly at any
time of the year and it keeps growing. It also shoots from the base of
the trunk which I also hack back.

Part of my garden is overlooked and my two bay trees are kept at around
3m height and I hack off any growth that starts growing over the fence line.

If kept in check any (soft) wood branches and leaves are easily shredded
with my spinning blade petrol lawn mower. :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[N_Cook]

On 18/07/2023 22:09, Jeff Layman wrote:

> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.

I recently came across a type of hedge I've never seen in England, a box
box hedge. About 10 foot by 10 foot by 10 foot box hiding wheelie bins.
All sides (except presumably one) perfectly flat , vertical and
horizontal with no holes, quite impressive uniform green

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/07/2023 09:15, N_Cook wrote:
> On 18/07/2023 22:09, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
>> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
>> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.
>
> I recently came across a type of hedge I've never seen in England, a box
> box hedge. About 10 foot by 10 foot by 10 foot box hiding wheelie bins.
> All sides (except presumably one) perfectly flat , vertical and
> horizontal with no holes, quite impressive uniform green
>

Box does that. I am growing box hedges. you can sculpt them any shape.
The two downsides are the incredibly slow growth rate, and the
propensity to simply die if they don't get water constantly, especially
when young with under developed root systems.
Oh, and the smell. Box smells of cat's piss. And attracts cats who piss
on it, killing it. When young anyway.

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <u97q74$20v1n$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
>> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
>> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.
>>
>A friend who just died had one partially of bay, and I have a bay which
>is part of a hedge too.
>I think the issue is it doesn't look as nice as some very similar
>laurels, so why bother?

Cooking with laurel needs care - you can poison yourself :-)

Actually, I think that it does look as good as Portugal laurel and
better tham common laurel or privet. Not as good as box or yew,
though.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Jeff Layman]

On 19/07/2023 10:04, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <u97q74$20v1n$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
>>> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
>>> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.
>>>
>> A friend who just died had one partially of bay, and I have a bay which
>> is part of a hedge too.
>> I think the issue is it doesn't look as nice as some very similar
>> laurels, so why bother?
>
> Cooking with laurel needs care - you can poison yourself :-)

Not bay laurel; it's not toxic - and its smoke is great for BBQs. The
others (Cherry and Portuguese) have rather too much cyanide for my liking.

> Actually, I think that it does look as good as Portugal laurel and
> better tham common laurel or privet. Not as good as box or yew,
> though.

And infinitely better than half-bald conifer hedges! Although Portuguese
laurel is ok, there seems to be some suggestion that cherry laurel
produces suckers.

--

Jeff

[RustyHinge]

HCN is thermolabile so cooking with laurel(s) is perfectly safe.
Likewise Merasmius oreades, for the small amount *they* contain.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <u9900u$275ga$1...@dont-email.me>,

RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
>On 19/07/2023 10:52, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
>>>>> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
>>>>> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.
>>>>>
>>>> A friend who just died had one partially of bay, and I have a bay which
>>>> is part of a hedge too.
>>>> I think the issue is it doesn't look as nice as some very similar
>>>> laurels, so why bother?
>>>
>>> Cooking with laurel needs care - you can poison yourself :-)
>>
>> Not bay laurel; it's not toxic - and its smoke is great for BBQs. The
>> others (Cherry and Portuguese) have rather too much cyanide for my liking.
>>
>>> Actually, I think that it does look as good as Portugal laurel and
>>> better tham common laurel or privet.  Not as good as box or yew,
>>> though.
>>
>> And infinitely better than half-bald conifer hedges! Although Portuguese
>> laurel is ok, there seems to be some suggestion that cherry laurel
>> produces suckers.
>>
>HCN is thermolabile so cooking with laurel(s) is perfectly safe.

Actually, it's not in that form, so you CAN poison yourself even after
it is cooked. My joke was that bay is commonly used in cooking, and
would taste disgusting long before it is poisonous, but that some old
recipes DO use laurel (not bay) leaves to give a bitter almond taste,
and you really don't want to overdo it. Nor when using Prunus kernels
in the same way and for the same reason.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I am confused. Bay *IS* laurel. Laurel nobilis, and it is not poisonous
at all, cooked or uncooked.

Only reference I can find to poison is the cherry laurel and mountain
laurel. And possibly portugese laurel.

Not the bay laurel.

>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

[RustyHinge]

On 20/07/2023 10:05, Nick Maclaren wrote:

> In article <u9900u$275ga$1...@dont-email.me>,
> RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/07/2023 10:52, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a bay hedge in Britain.
>>>>>> The climate in southern England isn't too far removed from that in
>>>>>> Brittany, so a decent hedge should be attainable.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A friend who just died had one partially of bay, and I have a bay which
>>>>> is part of a hedge too.
>>>>> I think the issue is it doesn't look as nice as some very similar
>>>>> laurels, so why bother?
>>>>
>>>> Cooking with laurel needs care - you can poison yourself :-)
>>>
>>> Not bay laurel; it's not toxic - and its smoke is great for BBQs. The
>>> others (Cherry and Portuguese) have rather too much cyanide for my liking.
>>>
>>>> Actually, I think that it does look as good as Portugal laurel and

>>>> better tham common laurel or privet.  Not as good as box or yew,

>>>> though.
>>>
>>> And infinitely better than half-bald conifer hedges! Although Portuguese
>>> laurel is ok, there seems to be some suggestion that cherry laurel
>>> produces suckers.
>>>
>> HCN is thermolabile so cooking with laurel(s) is perfectly safe.
>
> Actually, it's not in that form, so you CAN poison yourself even after
> it is cooked. My joke was that bay is commonly used in cooking, and
> would taste disgusting long before it is poisonous, but that some old
> recipes DO use laurel (not bay) leaves to give a bitter almond taste,
> and you really don't want to overdo it. Nor when using Prunus kernels
> in the same way and for the same reason.

Yebbut when prunus kernels are cooked, the CN bit is destroyed. Some
jams, apricot in particular are sold with the stones' kernels in the
jar, presumably just for the bitter almond taste.

There's not a lot in a kernel anyway

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <u9avos$2l9n6$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>

>I am confused. Bay *IS* laurel. Laurel nobilis, and it is not poisonous
>at all, cooked or uncooked.

We don't speak Latin any more, you know! When most people in Britain
speak about laurel, they are talking about Prunus lauracerasus, or
sometimes P. lusitanica; also called the cherry and Portugal laurels.
Laurus nobilis is normally called just bay, though it was originally
called bay-tree, and is sometimes called sweet bay or bay laurel.
Yes, it was the laurel of Roman wreaths, but why the Victorians
started to call it the bay laurel escapes me.

>Only reference I can find to poison is the cherry laurel and mountain
>laurel. And possibly portugese laurel.
>
>Not the bay laurel.

Essentially ALL herbs and spices are toxic in large doses, and I
doubt very much that bay is an exception. But, as I said, you
would never eat tham amount :-)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339980532_Laurus_nobilis_L_assessment_of_the_cytotoxic_and_genotoxic_potential_of_aqueous_extracts_by_micronucleus_and_Allium_cepa_assays


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <u9bop9$2q0kd$1...@dont-email.me>,

Nick Maclaren <nm.ma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <u9avos$2l9n6$1...@dont-email.me>,
>The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>I am confused. Bay *IS* laurel. Laurel nobilis, and it is not poisonous
>>at all, cooked or uncooked.
>
>We don't speak Latin any more, you know! When most people in Britain
>speak about laurel, they are talking about Prunus lauracerasus, or
>sometimes P. lusitanica; also called the cherry and Portugal laurels.
>Laurus nobilis is normally called just bay, though it was originally
>called bay-tree, and is sometimes called sweet bay or bay laurel.
>Yes, it was the laurel of Roman wreaths, but why the Victorians
>started to call it the bay laurel escapes me.

Perhaps I should say that the word 'laurel' was used for the bay
before Victorian times, but ONLY in the sense of crowned with bay,
greenness or in medicinal texts (i.e. poetic or latinate). In
culinary uses, it was always bay-tree or bay. And, as the OED says,
the use of 'laurel' to mean 'bay' is now rare.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[RustyHinge]

The OED has an old-fashioned predeliction for spelling words with a 'z'
where the rest of the world uses 's', so they ought to be quite OK with
it innit.