Laburnum tree and pond fish

[Spider]

My pond is a smallish cascade affair. About 10yrs ago I kept fish
(Golden Orfe) in it. However, the local heron scoffed the lot, so many
years passed without fish. Because of this (and perhaps foolishly) I
planted a laburnum tree a few feet away.

A couple of Springs ago, a friend rescued some fish (poss. small Koi,
definitely carp) and asked if I'd keep them in my pond. I did so and
they survived very well, right through last winter despite the pond
icing over. Indeed, when we cleaned out the pond in summer, we found
lots of baby carp, so assumed they were doing well. This winter,
however, has seen several losses. Indeed, about a week ago I removed 4
dead fish floating on the surface.

Since the fish survived one hard winter, I find it hard to believe
they've succumbed to cold this year. There is a bubbling spout to
aerate the water, so that's not the problem. So now my dread thought is
that the Laburnum tree is poisoning them (due to leaf and seed fall),
even though there were no ill effects last year.

The Laburnum tree (which came pot-grown from the same friend) has been
in place several years. The circumference is 11", so about 4" diameter.
Moving it would be a huge job for me, but one I'm having to consider
all the same. I know this friend would be very upset if I lost the
tree, so chopping it down isn't an option, but it puts increased
pressure on me should I move it. I know that, ideally, I should trench
and root prune it this year, making the rootball smaller and keener to
grow away. Alas, I'm feeling the need to move it urgently, so may not
have this option.

I would be grateful for any input regarding the fish/poisoning/other
cause of demise and the chances of moving this tree successfully. The
tree was fairly big in its pot before I received it, so it may have had
a slow start in life due to a limited rootball. I'm hoping this is the
case, but fear it may have established a strong tap root and made itself
at home. Help, please!!


--
Spider
from high ground in SE London
gardening on clay

[Bob Hobden]

"Spider" wrote

Do you feed the fish during late autumn to early spring, i.e over winter?
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

[Emery Davis]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 15:42:48 +0000, Spider wrote:

> The Laburnum tree (which came pot-grown from the same friend) has been
> in place several years. The circumference is 11", so about 4" diameter.
> Moving it would be a huge job for me, but one I'm having to consider
> all the same. I know this friend would be very upset if I lost the
> tree,
> so chopping it down isn't an option, but it puts increased pressure on
> me

They're quite easy to root from cuttings, maybe it would solve the
problem if you potted up a few, then removed the larger tree once it was
clear they'd struck?



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

[Mike]

and announced it to your friend as 'Son of'
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
OK OK OK or 'Daughter of'
.
.
.



"Emery Davis" wrote in message news:aq3s9h...@mid.individual.net...

[Spider]

No. I stop when it gets cold.

[Spider]

That's a thought. I think my friend will still be horrified, but as far
as I'm concerned it's an option. Thank you. I'll dicuss it with her first.

[Spider]

On 10/03/2013 16:58, 'Mike' wrote:
> and announced it to your friend as 'Son of'
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> OK OK OK or 'Daughter of'
> .

I think it's the fact that it would be an orphan that would be the
problem. She's extremely soft hearted.

> .
> .
>
>
>
> "Emery Davis" wrote in message news:aq3s9h...@mid.individual.net...
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 15:42:48 +0000, Spider wrote:
>
>> The Laburnum tree (which came pot-grown from the same friend) has been
>> in place several years. The circumference is 11", so about 4" diameter.
>> Moving it would be a huge job for me, but one I'm having to consider
>> all the same. I know this friend would be very upset if I lost the
>> tree,
>> so chopping it down isn't an option, but it puts increased pressure on
>> me
>
> They're quite easy to root from cuttings, maybe it would solve the
> problem if you potted up a few, then removed the larger tree once it was
> clear they'd struck?
>
>
>


--

[David Hill]

Or move the pond.

[Spider]

Obviously, you haven't seen the foundations of this pond!;~). It is not
going anywhere. It will be where it is for all eternity.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 15:42:48 +0000, Spider wrote:

> Since the fish survived one hard winter, I find it hard to believe
> they've succumbed to cold this year. There is a bubbling spout to
> aerate the water, so that's not the problem.

It might be. Water is funny stuff it's maximum density is at about 4C.
Water at this temperature sinks to the bottom and stays there. The
surface can cool further and freeze but is less dense so stays at the
surface. The bubbles will tend to make the water circulate and thus the
whole body of the of the pond water can get cooled below 4C. The fish may
well object to temps below 4C...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Original Jake]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:51:39 +0000, Spider <spi...@invalid.com> wrote:

>
>Obviously, you haven't seen the foundations of this pond!;~). It is not
>going anywhere. It will be where it is for all eternity.

I think it's the tree or the pond or the fish! See:

http://www.koimag.co.uk/advice/what-plants-are-poisonous-koi-are-there-any-you-should-absolutely-avoid-around-or-near-koi-po

(The link ends with "po" but if it wraps you may need to edit the
middle.)

Cheers, Jake
=======================================
Urgling from the East end of Swansea Bay
in between feeding half the UK bird population!

[Pete C]

"Spider" <spi...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:aq3nvp...@mid.individual.net...

> My pond is a smallish cascade affair. About 10yrs ago I kept fish (Golden
> Orfe) in it. However, the local heron scoffed the lot, so many years
> passed without fish. Because of this (and perhaps foolishly) I planted a
> laburnum tree a few feet away.

Pure guess......might be a build up of poisen from the tree. Not something
I'd normally suggest at this time of year, but a major water change may give
a temporary respite.Use temp matched dechlorinated water. Long term, I'd say
either the fish or the tree have to go :(
--
Pete C

[Spider]

Thanks, Jake, I was able to see it. It's what I dreaded and more, so it
looks like the tree will have to be moved. I have so many of those
poisonous plants in my garden, although only the Laburnum near enough to
the pond to be troublesome. Groan! I'd better start building up my
muscles.

[Spider]

Thanks, Dave. I think I sort of knew most of this already, although in
less tech-speak. However, the fact that they survived an even worse
winter than this - and bred - makes me wonder if this is the problem.

[Spider]

Thanks for that. Yes, I think a water change may well come into it
until I can clear enough room around the tree to move it. I am hoping
that there is sufficient rainwater in the waterbutt to give me a good
start. Can't say I'm looking forward to any of it. I thought all the
big jobs were done. Oh well ...

[Pete C]

"

>
> Thanks for that. Yes, I think a water change may well come into it until
> I can clear enough room around the tree to move it. I am hoping that
> there is sufficient rainwater in the waterbutt to give me a good start.
> Can't say I'm looking forward to any of it. I thought all the big jobs
> were done. Oh well ...
>

Don't forget that butt water can contain all sorts of nasties. Better to
declorinate tap water. I see you are in SE London, I'm in Thamesmead with
time on my hands if I can be of any help.
--
Pete C

[Spider]

On 10/03/2013 23:15, Pete C wrote:
> "
>
>>
>> Thanks for that. Yes, I think a water change may well come into it until
>> I can clear enough room around the tree to move it. I am hoping that
>> there is sufficient rainwater in the waterbutt to give me a good start.
>> Can't say I'm looking forward to any of it. I thought all the big jobs
>> were done. Oh well ...
>>
> Don't forget that butt water can contain all sorts of nasties. Better to
> declorinate tap water.

I had let that slip my mind;~). I will do as you suggest.

I see you are in SE London, I'm in Thamesmead with
> time on my hands if I can be of any help.

Oh, bless you, Pete! That's really kind of you. For the time being
though, I'm having to put the job off since I'm recovering from a nasty
chest infection, plus we have snow falling as I type:~((. In fact, RG
has offered to give me a hand. He favours chopping down the tree after
taking a cutting (as Emery suggested), which would make the work a lot
less arduous. First, I've got to break the news to my friend, which
won't be easy. I confess I feel bad about it, but am inclined to put
the fish before the tree. Nevertheless, I'm truly grateful for your
offer. Thank you.

[David Hill]

If you are going to get rid of the tree, then take your cuttings ASAP
then let the tree flower for one last time then remove it before it sets
seed.
I don't know if you can coppice a laburnum

[Spider]

That's a good idea, David! It also happens to be a good excuse to put
the job off until I'm fully recovered:~). I will take some cuttings
later this week, subject to my RHS Prop Guide.
Coppicing is a good idea, since it means I won't have to move it or axe
it. I'm wondering, though, if it will flower as a coppiced tree, since
this is a huge part of its attraction. I may just coppice it (subject
to friend's anguish) and see what happens. If it flowers in a year or
two, that's fine. If not, I'll have another chance at using cuttings
material if the first lot fail.

This delaying strategy means I will have to clean up the pond water so
it is halfway fit for the poor fish for a few more months.

[Pete C]

"Spider" <spi...@invalid.com> wrote in message

news:aq6esl...@mid.individual.net...

> On 10/03/2013 23:15, Pete C wrote:

snippy

He favours chopping down the tree after
> taking a cutting (as Emery suggested), which would make the work a lot
> less arduous. First, I've got to break the news to my friend, which won't
> be easy. I confess I feel bad about it, but am inclined to put the fish
> before the tree. Nevertheless, I'm truly grateful for your offer. Thank
> you.

My reply to is valid should you need it.
--
Pete C

[Spider]

Thank you. I do appreciate it. Nice to know you're not far away.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:15:35 -0000, Pete C wrote:

> Don't forget that butt water can contain all sorts of nasties.

Any more than the the pond water? Our water butt water is pretty clean,
just a bit of detritus at the bottom populated by blood worms last time I
had to empty it. The fish would no doubt like those...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:15:33 +0000, Spider wrote:

> Thanks, Dave. I think I sort of knew most of this already, although in
> less tech-speak. However, the fact that they survived an even worse
> winter than this - and bred - makes me wonder if this is the problem.

Was the aerator running in the previous winter? If it was was it always
running or switched off overnight for example?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Spider]

The aerator is a bubbling spout, rather than the kind of aerating stone
I used to use in our indoor aquarium. It is always *intended* to be
running (the power is never turned off). Very occasionally it fails due
to blockage, but I check it every day. If it's failed, I turn the
pressure up so the the blockage is freed due to a stronger jet of water,
then reset it to its normal bubbling state. It certainly seems to be
adequate for the few fish in there. During a brief failure, the fish
hover near the water's surface in order to get air. Most of the time,
the fish are deeper or even unseen, so I assume they are comfortable.

[Spider]

Mmm ... this is why I thought it would be safe to use, but I don't need
to be taking any more risks. Until I can coppice or move the tree, I
don't want to harm the fish any more than they are, perhaps, already. I
have seen two good-looking fish since the other four died, and there may
still be some of last years young surviving, so I'm keeping a close eye
on them.

One of the things that concerns me is that the dead fish may have
lingered out of sight and fouled the water before they floated on the
surface and became visible to me. I just hope there are no more bodies
in there. Since light levels have increased, I can no longer see into
the pond to check.

Incidentally, during the summer when blood worms are more plentiful, I
leave various shallow tubs with rainwater in to breed blood worms, which
I subsequently feed to the fish. This seems to me to be healthier than
adding dried food which isn't always eaten. If the fish don't eat the
bloodworms, the worms will simply wait to be eaten .. and breed more of
themselves in the meantime :~).