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Growing echiums from seed, any advice?
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N_Cook
Oct 4, 2022, 11:41:47 AM10/4/22
to
aka Viper's Bugloss, weeds of likes of Brazil and Canary Isles but the
18 foot Echium Pinanana vriety grow wild in Ventnor/Steephill of south
Isle of Wight and 15 foot or so ones in gardens of south Hampshire.
I admire the way they look as though they were made by an alien
mathematician, precisely graduated and disported leaves and flowers and
monster height, but at the same time always look drunk, flailing about.
I've been allowed to lay a sheet on the ground, rattle the stalk of
seed-set spikes in a few gardens , so have hundreds of seeds to play with.
Viability sowings late this summer seem to be about 1 in 4. The
successful ones I potted-on at about the second or third true hairy leaf
stage.
But after a few days the healthy green fades to grey green, shrivel and
die.
Adding Cheshunt compound to the watering makes no difference, being very
sparing on watering to drooping leaves before watering, makes no
difference. Wrong time of year? or any other advice?
I'm determined to get one plant at least to flowering stage.
The first year , a plant from Ventnor botanic gardens , got thru the
winter frosts with a bit of protection,no trouble, grew a handsome leaf
stem, about 1.5 inches diameter and keeled over in the next spring, I
assumed a frost had got to it. The next year a kindly gardener gave me a
plant, again got through the winter frosts and then in growth spurt
keeled over. This time I took a closer look and slugs had "ring-barked"
the stem , so perhaps the same as the prevous year. Such fearsome
hairs/spines to humans , I'd have thought slugs would be deterred , but
no. This year attempt , currently very healthy looking plants with no
slug damage at all , because of over the top slug prevention measures. A
pair of fine mesh foot-high wire mesh waste paper baskets encircling
each , cut vertically and wired back in place so easy to remove if
required next year, chopped dried bramble stems and broken egg shell on
the soil inside the baskets . When the odd leaf, all very healthy
currently , has grown enough to touch the ground then a large square of
wet and dry "sandpaper " anti-slug side up, under the leaf tip.
--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>
18 foot Echium Pinanana vriety grow wild in Ventnor/Steephill of south
Isle of Wight and 15 foot or so ones in gardens of south Hampshire.
I admire the way they look as though they were made by an alien
mathematician, precisely graduated and disported leaves and flowers and
monster height, but at the same time always look drunk, flailing about.
I've been allowed to lay a sheet on the ground, rattle the stalk of
seed-set spikes in a few gardens , so have hundreds of seeds to play with.
Viability sowings late this summer seem to be about 1 in 4. The
successful ones I potted-on at about the second or third true hairy leaf
stage.
But after a few days the healthy green fades to grey green, shrivel and
die.
Adding Cheshunt compound to the watering makes no difference, being very
sparing on watering to drooping leaves before watering, makes no
difference. Wrong time of year? or any other advice?
I'm determined to get one plant at least to flowering stage.
The first year , a plant from Ventnor botanic gardens , got thru the
winter frosts with a bit of protection,no trouble, grew a handsome leaf
stem, about 1.5 inches diameter and keeled over in the next spring, I
assumed a frost had got to it. The next year a kindly gardener gave me a
plant, again got through the winter frosts and then in growth spurt
keeled over. This time I took a closer look and slugs had "ring-barked"
the stem , so perhaps the same as the prevous year. Such fearsome
hairs/spines to humans , I'd have thought slugs would be deterred , but
no. This year attempt , currently very healthy looking plants with no
slug damage at all , because of over the top slug prevention measures. A
pair of fine mesh foot-high wire mesh waste paper baskets encircling
each , cut vertically and wired back in place so easy to remove if
required next year, chopped dried bramble stems and broken egg shell on
the soil inside the baskets . When the odd leaf, all very healthy
currently , has grown enough to touch the ground then a large square of
wet and dry "sandpaper " anti-slug side up, under the leaf tip.
--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>
Jeff Layman
Oct 4, 2022, 2:07:42 PM10/4/22
to
It was probably the wire mesh baskets which did the job. Other stuff put
on the ground around the plants is usually pointless. See here:
<https://www.slughelp.com/mulch-to-deter-slugs-and-snails-tested/>. NB
snails need calcium for their shells, so might actually be attracted to
eggshells! And as slugs are "snails of NFA", why would they be dissuaded
from crawling over eggshells? I assume you're into organic gardening to
avoid the use of slug pellets, even though ferric phosphate is
considered ok to use. I find it reasonable successful, though not foolproof.
I would cut off any leaf to stop it touching the ground, and being a
launching platform for slugs to reach the main stem.
I think the drought in the south and east has done much this year to
protect plants against slug damage; I haven't seen a slug for months.
As to keeping seedlings going, I think that ventilation is key. I used
to have a lot of trouble with botrytis in the greenhouse, not just on
seedlings, but on many plants, but haven't had any for years. The reason
is that I had a small oscillating fan going 24/365. I reckon it was
enough to stop fungal spores settling. The cost in electricity was about
£35 a year, but now it's just about doubled (fan rated at 20W). You may
find that keeping a small computer cooling fan going on the seedlings
for a couple of months will help them get past the "damping off" stage.
--
Jeff
N_Cook
Oct 4, 2022, 3:43:04 PM10/4/22
to
N_Cook
Oct 4, 2022, 3:58:31 PM10/4/22
to
On 04/10/2022 19:44, Chris Hogg wrote:
> They grow like weeds on Tresco (which will be of no comfort to you)!
>
> I'll second Jeff on using the modern phosphate-based S&S killer;
> apparently much kinder to other wildlife than the old metaldehyde-base
> stuff. I don't think you can get that old stuff any more, anyway.
>
> If you prefer to avoid any sort of chemicals, have you tried copper
> wire or tape. Never tried it myself, but people seem to have success
> with it. https://tinyurl.com/2fb3zhth and https://tinyurl.com/2fb3zhth
>
Copper wire and Cu tape was what I was going to try on launching them
into slug space in the garden. Lidl had packs of copper wire mesh as
slug defense for 5 or 6 squid, seemed like quite a weight of copper. It
is woven as sock/stocking weave so a tube of interlocking loops of mesh,
perhaps surplus from some massive co-ax cable making process.
Along the way I discovered that traditional scouring pads are made of a
similar material but ribbons of steel rather than round Cu wire, folded
in onto itself to form pads.
The other such defence , all not tried yet, will be bandoliers of
bramble stem. Laying 4 inch cut lengths of bramble on a surface, close
to each other, wide enough for a final circumference of 2 inch diameter
snipping off any upwards pointing thorns. Then running got melt glue
"string" straight from the gun in a few runs joining them all into a
bandolier. Then wrap around the young echium stems ,glue strips on the
inside,
and hold in place , loosely, by a few turns of copper wire , but the
ends not twisted or tied together, to let the bndolier unfurl with growth
I remembered another wild site of echiums is next to the railway
embankment near Cosham/Hilsea in the north of Portsmouth on some
derelict land or overgrown/fenced off disused pedestrian house access path
>
> I'll second Jeff on using the modern phosphate-based S&S killer;
> apparently much kinder to other wildlife than the old metaldehyde-base
> stuff. I don't think you can get that old stuff any more, anyway.
>
> If you prefer to avoid any sort of chemicals, have you tried copper
> wire or tape. Never tried it myself, but people seem to have success
> with it. https://tinyurl.com/2fb3zhth and https://tinyurl.com/2fb3zhth
>
Copper wire and Cu tape was what I was going to try on launching them
into slug space in the garden. Lidl had packs of copper wire mesh as
slug defense for 5 or 6 squid, seemed like quite a weight of copper. It
is woven as sock/stocking weave so a tube of interlocking loops of mesh,
perhaps surplus from some massive co-ax cable making process.
Along the way I discovered that traditional scouring pads are made of a
similar material but ribbons of steel rather than round Cu wire, folded
in onto itself to form pads.
The other such defence , all not tried yet, will be bandoliers of
bramble stem. Laying 4 inch cut lengths of bramble on a surface, close
to each other, wide enough for a final circumference of 2 inch diameter
snipping off any upwards pointing thorns. Then running got melt glue
"string" straight from the gun in a few runs joining them all into a
bandolier. Then wrap around the young echium stems ,glue strips on the
inside,
and hold in place , loosely, by a few turns of copper wire , but the
ends not twisted or tied together, to let the bndolier unfurl with growth
I remembered another wild site of echiums is next to the railway
embankment near Cosham/Hilsea in the north of Portsmouth on some
derelict land or overgrown/fenced off disused pedestrian house access path
N_Cook
Oct 7, 2022, 4:31:24 AM10/7/22
to
On 04/10/2022 19:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I would cut off any leaf to stop it touching the ground, and being a
> launching platform for slugs to reach the main stem.
I couldn't be so cruel. I decided to extend the tops of the wire
> launching platform for slugs to reach the main stem.
baskets. A near horizontal crinolin of that black mesh plastic used to
stop starlings clog dancing at 4 in the morning in roof guttering, wired
the joined segment ends together and inner circle edge wired to the
top of the basket.
N_Cook
Feb 7, 2023, 4:46:41 AM2/7/23
to
bubble-wrap and just "plastic" hessian for minor frosts , all removed in
the mornings.
From a 05 Jan seed sowing on the kitchen window sill , the first signs
of green today. Not gone with a fan so far. Not covering with glass and
placing the tray at a slope to avoid pooling of air.
Now whether the plantlets go from bright green ,currently, to greyer and
greyer again
Janet
Feb 7, 2023, 6:46:07 AM2/7/23
to
In article <trt6lv$3h7dn$1...@dont-email.me>,
div...@tcp.co.uk says...
I've used circles of fine dry woodash (from stove) as
a slug barrier, and also, circles of fresh comfrey leaves
(which are rough and scratchy). Slugs hate to crawl over
either.
Janet
div...@tcp.co.uk says...
a slug barrier, and also, circles of fresh comfrey leaves
(which are rough and scratchy). Slugs hate to crawl over
either.
Janet
N_Cook
Feb 23, 2023, 4:28:18 AM2/23/23
to
In case of any use to others.
None of this years seedlings have greyed, so perhaps it got too cold on
the window sill to survive end of last year, plus using glass over the
seed tray trapping mold.
So this year 33 days to first germination with minimum overnight temps 6
to 12 deg C sown 05 Jan
15 days to first from 07 Feb sowing, overnight mins 8 to 13.
No glass over this time and having the trays sloping intercepts more
sunlight and perhaps would assist in the soggy feet aversion of echiums
None of this years seedlings have greyed, so perhaps it got too cold on
the window sill to survive end of last year, plus using glass over the
seed tray trapping mold.
So this year 33 days to first germination with minimum overnight temps 6
to 12 deg C sown 05 Jan
15 days to first from 07 Feb sowing, overnight mins 8 to 13.
No glass over this time and having the trays sloping intercepts more
sunlight and perhaps would assist in the soggy feet aversion of echiums
N_Cook
Mar 10, 2023, 11:06:18 AM3/10/23
to
On 04/10/2022 16:41, N_Cook wrote:
I was waiting for the first true leaves to appear
before potting up. This week I potted on some although only 2
cotelydons. Only 2 leaves but already extensive roots particularly
downwards, easily 3 times the above soil stem length so touching bottom
of the tray. Perhaps they go into a bonsaing mode , don't start true
leaves , and go grey with old age, wither and die if too shallow.
N_Cook
Apr 9, 2023, 7:43:40 AM4/9/23
to
On other peoples established echium stands on the south coast.
IoW loads around Bonchurch, Steephill, Ventnor especially the Botanic
Gardens of course.
Hastings , main council car park, centre of old Hastings
Portsmouth/Southsea, Historic Dockyard -Porters Garden (get a pass from
the visitors entrance)
St Judes church, Southsea
Southsea Rock gardens and also NE of the main rose garden by the remnant
of Lumps Fort.
Large stand at The Friary between Waitrose and multistory carpark
Marmion Rd Southsea.
John Ponds site in old Pompey High St.
A site on the west side of the railway between Hilsea and Fratton, not
localised better, taken over a footway access behind houses.
From someone else , not seen, Copnor Rd behind a house ,seen from
garages access track, so probably Calcot to Chichester Rd side roads.
Southampton
52 Belmont Rd and also corner with St Denys Rd
Portswood Rd corner with Brickfield Rd.
Adelaide rd near the level crossing
University "secret" garden, Valley Gardens, Highfield
Ascupart Rd , off St Marys St
IoW loads around Bonchurch, Steephill, Ventnor especially the Botanic
Gardens of course.
Hastings , main council car park, centre of old Hastings
Portsmouth/Southsea, Historic Dockyard -Porters Garden (get a pass from
the visitors entrance)
St Judes church, Southsea
Southsea Rock gardens and also NE of the main rose garden by the remnant
of Lumps Fort.
Large stand at The Friary between Waitrose and multistory carpark
Marmion Rd Southsea.
John Ponds site in old Pompey High St.
A site on the west side of the railway between Hilsea and Fratton, not
localised better, taken over a footway access behind houses.
From someone else , not seen, Copnor Rd behind a house ,seen from
garages access track, so probably Calcot to Chichester Rd side roads.
Southampton
52 Belmont Rd and also corner with St Denys Rd
Portswood Rd corner with Brickfield Rd.
Adelaide rd near the level crossing
University "secret" garden, Valley Gardens, Highfield
Ascupart Rd , off St Marys St
N_Cook
Apr 11, 2023, 4:17:51 AM4/11/23
to
On other peoples established echium stands on the south coast.
plus Mayfield Gardens, Weston Lane, Sholing, Southampton
IoW loads around Bonchurch, Steephill, Ventnor especially the Botanic
Gardens of course.
Portsmouth/Southsea, Historic Dockyard -Porters Garden (get a pass from
the visitors entrance)
St Judes church, Southsea
Southsea Rock gardens and also NE of the main rose garden by the remnant
of Lumps Fort.
Large stand at The Friary between Waitrose and multistory carpark
Marmion Rd Southsea.
John Ponds site in old Pompey High St.
A site on the west side of the railway between Hilsea and Fratton, not
localised better, taken over a footway access behind houses.
From someone else , not seen, Copnor Rd behind a house ,seen from
garages access track, so probably Calcot to Chichester Rd side roads.
Southampton
52 Belmont Rd and also corner with St Denys Rd
Portswood Rd corner with Brickfield Rd.
Adelaide rd near the level crossing
University "secret" garden, Valley Gardens, Highfield
Ascupart Rd , off St Marys St
the visitors entrance)
St Judes church, Southsea
Southsea Rock gardens and also NE of the main rose garden by the remnant
of Lumps Fort.
Large stand at The Friary between Waitrose and multistory carpark
Marmion Rd Southsea.
John Ponds site in old Pompey High St.
A site on the west side of the railway between Hilsea and Fratton, not
localised better, taken over a footway access behind houses.
From someone else , not seen, Copnor Rd behind a house ,seen from
garages access track, so probably Calcot to Chichester Rd side roads.
Southampton
52 Belmont Rd and also corner with St Denys Rd
Portswood Rd corner with Brickfield Rd.
Adelaide rd near the level crossing
University "secret" garden, Valley Gardens, Highfield
Ascupart Rd , off St Marys St
Jeff Layman
Apr 11, 2023, 6:01:11 AM4/11/23
to
couple of dozen shrubs of various genera such as callistemon, grevillea,
hebe, and clianthus which had survived the previous six winters without
damage. They are generally listed as being of USA zone 7 and 8
hardiness. I'm still expecting others to have been killed when they try
to start growing again. I'm in south central Hampshire, and this winter
we had almost 500 hours below zero, with 90 hours below -5°C.
--
Jeff
N_Cook
Apr 11, 2023, 10:44:00 AM4/11/23
to
Ascupart St, because of frost damage. I visited Southsea last week and
they showed very little frost blackening from the winter and romping
away bright green leaf spreads for flowering in this summer presumably,
I'll post a few pics on the www below sometime today or tomorrow.
N_Cook
Apr 11, 2023, 2:27:04 PM4/11/23
to
http://diverse.4mg.com/echiums_southsea1.jpg
Pic 1 is the Rock Gardens with Pyramids Centre, not a greenhouse, on the
left of the image, about 5 foot high already.
http://diverse.4mg.com/echiums_southsea2.jpg
Pic 2 effectively in Waitrose carpark , Marmion Rd, The Friarys,
hundreds or thousands of plants from this year and last, right hand
frond about 4 foot high already.
Jeff Layman
Apr 12, 2023, 3:13:08 AM4/12/23
to
reasonable chance of survival. I could be wrong, but I thought that some
years ago I'd seen echiums growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly
along a wall by Park Walk. There were quite a few interesting and
perhaps somewhat tender plants growing in the main Southampton parks. I
wonder how they got on this winter.
--
Jeff
N_Cook
Apr 12, 2023, 4:11:59 AM4/12/23
to
On 12/04/2023 08:13, Jeff Layman wrote:
> They look good. If well inside the "built-up" areas I would expect a
> reasonable chance of survival. I could be wrong, but I thought that some
> years ago I'd seen echiums growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly
> along a wall by Park Walk. There were quite a few interesting and
> perhaps somewhat tender plants growing in the main Southampton parks. I
> wonder how they got on this winter.
I don't remember seeing any in the central parks. The council run
> They look good. If well inside the "built-up" areas I would expect a
> reasonable chance of survival. I could be wrong, but I thought that some
> years ago I'd seen echiums growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly
> along a wall by Park Walk. There were quite a few interesting and
> perhaps somewhat tender plants growing in the main Southampton parks. I
> wonder how they got on this winter.
Mayfield Park at Sholing a month back ,the decades long echium stand
looked devastated, totally black. Right up against the south side high
brick wall of the original Radstock House walled garden, no green from
the stools of last year, and only a few this year seedlings.
Perhaps Southsea had different sorts of frosts last winter.
N_Cook
Apr 14, 2023, 7:26:57 AM4/14/23
to
I've decided frosts are over for S Hampshire and planted out the first
echium seedlings. I know they like vertical S facing vertical surfaces
to grow in. Some rock stabilised vertical soil next to a path looked
ideal, if I could plant horizontally and they would quickly turn
skywards, not out over the path. This they did , within an inch of the soil.
The other later seedlings are also outside, on large plastic trays, but
with all the rain, I've propped up with more bricks at one end, so they
don't drown.
So far enquiring at nursuries only a dwarf cultivar seen.
But yesterday on enquiring at another nursery, the owner said just that
morning she had ordered pipes for them, for potting on.
So presumably she knows , unlike Ventnor Botanic Gardens shop, that
Echium Pinyana grow a very long tap root even when only at 2 cotyledon
stage, easily 3 times longer than the stem , so narrow and long cylinder
specialised pots make sense.
echium seedlings. I know they like vertical S facing vertical surfaces
to grow in. Some rock stabilised vertical soil next to a path looked
ideal, if I could plant horizontally and they would quickly turn
skywards, not out over the path. This they did , within an inch of the soil.
The other later seedlings are also outside, on large plastic trays, but
with all the rain, I've propped up with more bricks at one end, so they
don't drown.
So far enquiring at nursuries only a dwarf cultivar seen.
But yesterday on enquiring at another nursery, the owner said just that
morning she had ordered pipes for them, for potting on.
So presumably she knows , unlike Ventnor Botanic Gardens shop, that
Echium Pinyana grow a very long tap root even when only at 2 cotyledon
stage, easily 3 times longer than the stem , so narrow and long cylinder
specialised pots make sense.
N_Cook
Apr 14, 2023, 7:40:50 AM4/14/23
to
On 14/04/2023 12:27, N_Cook wrote:
> I've decided frosts are over for S Hampshire and planted out the first
> echium seedlings. I know they like vertical S facing vertical surfaces
> to grow in. Some rock stabilised vertical soil next to a path looked
> ideal, if I could plant horizontally and they would quickly turn
> skywards, not out over the path. This they did , within an inch of the
> soil.
> The other later seedlings are also outside, on large plastic trays, but
> with all the rain, I've propped up with more bricks at one end, so they
> don't drown.
> So far enquiring at nursuries only a dwarf cultivar seen.
> But yesterday on enquiring at another nursery, the owner said just that
> morning she had ordered pipes for them, for potting on.
> So presumably she knows , unlike Ventnor Botanic Gardens shop, that
> Echium Pinyana grow a very long tap root even when only at 2 cotyledon
> stage, easily 3 times longer than the stem , so narrow and long cylinder
> specialised pots make sense.
>
Googling around , if I do this again , then sweet pea pots look the bis
> I've decided frosts are over for S Hampshire and planted out the first
> echium seedlings. I know they like vertical S facing vertical surfaces
> to grow in. Some rock stabilised vertical soil next to a path looked
> ideal, if I could plant horizontally and they would quickly turn
> skywards, not out over the path. This they did , within an inch of the
> soil.
> The other later seedlings are also outside, on large plastic trays, but
> with all the rain, I've propped up with more bricks at one end, so they
> don't drown.
> So far enquiring at nursuries only a dwarf cultivar seen.
> But yesterday on enquiring at another nursery, the owner said just that
> morning she had ordered pipes for them, for potting on.
> So presumably she knows , unlike Ventnor Botanic Gardens shop, that
> Echium Pinyana grow a very long tap root even when only at 2 cotyledon
> stage, easily 3 times longer than the stem , so narrow and long cylinder
> specialised pots make sense.
>
eg
https://elixirgardensupplies.co.uk/product/grow-tubes-deep-tap-root-trainers-sweet-pea-beans-onion-leek-carrot/
N_Cook
Apr 15, 2023, 10:15:54 AM4/15/23
to
For the late developer seedlings I've made some long cone pots.
I'd a part roll of bricklayers plastic DPC, 11cm wide, cut into 10&12cm
long side trapeziums. Formed into part cones with 3 different size
temporary O rings, and a run of hot melt glue along the join , and 4
blobs at the bottom.
To weakly retain a wad of ,trying out, cotton wool balls and also bits
of hessian sack. That way I can reuse with new wads, if necessary.
I'll also try one of these long pots for a new sowing , with seeds only
5mm apart , to see how long the tap roots grow, before true leaves form.
I'd a part roll of bricklayers plastic DPC, 11cm wide, cut into 10&12cm
long side trapeziums. Formed into part cones with 3 different size
temporary O rings, and a run of hot melt glue along the join , and 4
blobs at the bottom.
To weakly retain a wad of ,trying out, cotton wool balls and also bits
of hessian sack. That way I can reuse with new wads, if necessary.
I'll also try one of these long pots for a new sowing , with seeds only
5mm apart , to see how long the tap roots grow, before true leaves form.
N_Cook
Apr 17, 2023, 2:34:17 PM4/17/23
to
On 12/04/2023 08:13, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I could be wrong, but I thought that some years ago I'd seen echiums
> growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly along a wall by Park Walk.
Today I passed thru Andrews Park and asked a gardener , who knew his
> growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly along a wall by Park Walk.
stuff. He knew ther were established echiums in council Mayfield Park on
the edge of soton, but he was not aware of any echiums recently in the
central parks.
I'll keep an eye on a scatter of seedlings in the bed below that wall
near Park Walk, but at this stage they could easily be borage .
Jeff Layman
Apr 18, 2023, 2:56:30 AM4/18/23
to
On 17/04/2023 19:34, N_Cook wrote:
> On 12/04/2023 08:13, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> I could be wrong, but I thought that some years ago I'd seen echiums
>> growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly along a wall by Park Walk.
>
> Today I passed thru Andrews Park and asked a gardener , who knew his
> stuff. He knew ther were established echiums in council Mayfield Park on
> the edge of soton, but he was not aware of any echiums recently in the
> central parks.
I would have been around 7 years ago, give or take.
> On 12/04/2023 08:13, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> I could be wrong, but I thought that some years ago I'd seen echiums
>> growing in East (Andrews) Park, possibly along a wall by Park Walk.
>
> Today I passed thru Andrews Park and asked a gardener , who knew his
> stuff. He knew ther were established echiums in council Mayfield Park on
> the edge of soton, but he was not aware of any echiums recently in the
> central parks.
> I'll keep an eye on a scatter of seedlings in the bed below that wall
> near Park Walk, but at this stage they could easily be borage .
--
Jeff
N_Cook
May 8, 2023, 6:43:15 AM5/8/23
to
On 15/04/2023 15:16, N_Cook wrote:
> For the late developer seedlings I've made some long cone pots.
> I'd a part roll of bricklayers plastic DPC, 11cm wide, cut into 10&12cm
> long side trapeziums. Formed into part cones with 3 different size
> temporary O rings, and a run of hot melt glue along the join , and 4
> blobs at the bottom.
> To weakly retain a wad of ,trying out, cotton wool balls and also bits
> of hessian sack. That way I can reuse with new wads, if necessary.
> I'll also try one of these long pots for a new sowing , with seeds only
> 5mm apart , to see how long the tap roots grow, before true leaves form.
>
>
Going by leaf spread the ones potted-on in long pots have caught up with
> For the late developer seedlings I've made some long cone pots.
> I'd a part roll of bricklayers plastic DPC, 11cm wide, cut into 10&12cm
> long side trapeziums. Formed into part cones with 3 different size
> temporary O rings, and a run of hot melt glue along the join , and 4
> blobs at the bottom.
> To weakly retain a wad of ,trying out, cotton wool balls and also bits
> of hessian sack. That way I can reuse with new wads, if necessary.
> I'll also try one of these long pots for a new sowing , with seeds only
> 5mm apart , to see how long the tap roots grow, before true leaves form.
>
>
the ones potted-on 3 weeks earlier into normal small pots, all have been
outdoors after potting on.
N_Cook
May 22, 2023, 10:21:15 AM5/22/23
to
Long pots is one secret, they romp away. I've a load of old celluloid?
pill-pots (before polyethelene pots came in for vit pills etc) , I see
them holding buttons in haberdashers,150mm long, 30mm diameter. Requires
cutting axially to remove plants , as not tapered. Seems the leaves turn
orange in response to cold wind, not disease, and no lasting harm.
The other secret is bits of cut old bramble stem heaped around the
plants, no slug damage seen.
Looks like all the established echium stands in Southamton did not
survive the winter frosts and not only that ,no self-seeding plantlets
around them this year. That is the case for a few of the sites on the
Isle of Wight, but luckily not all. Bus tour of IoW , loads of flowering
examples around Niton, St Catherines Rd, Puckaster Lane and gone wild
ones taken over the roadside SandRock Rd. Plenty of survivors around
Ventnor , Alpine Rd, Zigzag and central car park and my favorites taken
over the monumental masonry , growing between the joins of the stonework
and the graves in St Catherines Church, Chale a couple of examples
including the old rectory, and Cowes on the corner of Park and Victoria
rds, and a house south of Carisbrooke business centre. Latest Google
Earth probably shows the winter time black fingers of their main echium
bed , into the air, at 50_35_20N , 1_13_47W at Ventnor Botanic Garden.
pill-pots (before polyethelene pots came in for vit pills etc) , I see
them holding buttons in haberdashers,150mm long, 30mm diameter. Requires
cutting axially to remove plants , as not tapered. Seems the leaves turn
orange in response to cold wind, not disease, and no lasting harm.
The other secret is bits of cut old bramble stem heaped around the
plants, no slug damage seen.
Looks like all the established echium stands in Southamton did not
survive the winter frosts and not only that ,no self-seeding plantlets
around them this year. That is the case for a few of the sites on the
Isle of Wight, but luckily not all. Bus tour of IoW , loads of flowering
examples around Niton, St Catherines Rd, Puckaster Lane and gone wild
ones taken over the roadside SandRock Rd. Plenty of survivors around
Ventnor , Alpine Rd, Zigzag and central car park and my favorites taken
over the monumental masonry , growing between the joins of the stonework
and the graves in St Catherines Church, Chale a couple of examples
including the old rectory, and Cowes on the corner of Park and Victoria
rds, and a house south of Carisbrooke business centre. Latest Google
Earth probably shows the winter time black fingers of their main echium
bed , into the air, at 50_35_20N , 1_13_47W at Ventnor Botanic Garden.
N_Cook
May 24, 2023, 9:25:43 AM5/24/23
to
One longterm site of echiums survived in Southampton , corner of St
Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
survive the summer
Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
survive the summer
Jeff Layman
May 24, 2023, 12:05:09 PM5/24/23
to
On 24/05/2023 14:24, N_Cook wrote:
> One longterm site of echiums survived in Southampton , corner of St
> Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
> last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
> brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
> perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
> survive the summer
Thanks for the info. I don't usually cross the Itchen by the Cobden
> One longterm site of echiums survived in Southampton , corner of St
> Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
> last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
> brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
> perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
> survive the summer
Bridge, but next year I'll go that route around this time of year to see
if there are any flowers.
--
Jeff
N_Cook
May 24, 2023, 4:14:37 PM5/24/23
to
Brickfiled , Kitchener or Sirdar not noted which. But a gardner there
keeps back some plants in the greenhouse ,so maybe some later on.
N_Cook
May 25, 2023, 3:47:59 AM5/25/23
to
On 24/05/2023 14:24, N_Cook wrote:
> One longterm site of echiums survived in Southampton , corner of St
> Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
> last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
> brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
> perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
> survive the summer
>
I've decided to donate a bit of brick garden wall for an echium
> Denys Rd and Belmont Rd , but no flowering this year. Some seedlings in
> last couple of weeks and a couple growing in the mortar of the mainroad
> brick wall, two foot above the ground. Now I've told the gardner ,
> perhaps he'll pull to preserve the wall, interesting otherwise if they
> survive the summer
>
experiment. Drill a hole angled down into a mortar join and hotmelt glue
half a plastic bottle cap to the top. Drop a seedling in there, fill up
with seived compost and vermiculite and water until established, as now
past its winter/spring time natural colonistion period of stone or
brickwork. Break off the bottle cap at some point. I find the
"engineering" fascinating, not only height but girth goes on very fast.
Stems grow to 4 or 5 inches in diameter in a few months ,but you never
see wind having blown down a 4 or 5m high spike. The wood is like balsa,
very low density.
But great thick stems growing out of a qurter inch gap in stonework.
N_Cook
May 29, 2023, 4:26:27 AM5/29/23
to
The Belmont Rd/St Denys Rd plants are still in his wall. My wall host
experiment is doing well,stem initially horizontal , now the stem has
turned vertical. Initially 2 waterings a day, from now on 1 a day and
then with the next rain, I'll try leaving it to its own devices.
Next echium themed project, The woody stem of my first effort is still
around, a 4 inch diameter hollow wood tube about 5 foot long with evenly
spaced and staggered radially arrayed holes around, where the leaves
emerged. I know a flute maker, when I next see him , I'll ask whether
it would be possible to minimally fashion into a sort of combination
didgery-doo and weird tuning bassoon by plugging some of the holes.
experiment is doing well,stem initially horizontal , now the stem has
turned vertical. Initially 2 waterings a day, from now on 1 a day and
then with the next rain, I'll try leaving it to its own devices.
Next echium themed project, The woody stem of my first effort is still
around, a 4 inch diameter hollow wood tube about 5 foot long with evenly
spaced and staggered radially arrayed holes around, where the leaves
emerged. I know a flute maker, when I next see him , I'll ask whether
it would be possible to minimally fashion into a sort of combination
didgery-doo and weird tuning bassoon by plugging some of the holes.
N_Cook
Jun 11, 2023, 11:09:14 AM6/11/23
to
My wall planting is going well with one watering a day, as no rain so
far, a wreathe of bramble around the stem against slug attack.
I dropped into the NGS open garden at Mappercombe Manor, Nettlecombe,
Dorset yesterday.
Plenty of echiums growing out of dry stone walls there. They had frosts
last winter and that caused the "pollarding" I thought was due to
gardeners pruning or wind damage. Knocks out the tip and then side
shoots emerge the next year, leading to numerous short flower spikes.
far, a wreathe of bramble around the stem against slug attack.
I dropped into the NGS open garden at Mappercombe Manor, Nettlecombe,
Dorset yesterday.
Plenty of echiums growing out of dry stone walls there. They had frosts
last winter and that caused the "pollarding" I thought was due to
gardeners pruning or wind damage. Knocks out the tip and then side
shoots emerge the next year, leading to numerous short flower spikes.
N_Cook
Jun 25, 2023, 10:39:36 AM6/25/23
to
The only flowering examples that survived the winter in Southampton,
I've seen. Both in Hillside Avenue, Bitterne Park, no 36 full height
14foot or so flower spike and a perhaps winter damaged side spur lesser
flower spike at no 44.
Other than frost and cold wind turning the leaves red/brown, lack of
soil depth. One of my long pots , the compost settled leaving a gap so
only an inch of soil for the transplant and all the leaves went
orangey/reddish/brown, since recovered transplanting again.
I've seen. Both in Hillside Avenue, Bitterne Park, no 36 full height
14foot or so flower spike and a perhaps winter damaged side spur lesser
flower spike at no 44.
Other than frost and cold wind turning the leaves red/brown, lack of
soil depth. One of my long pots , the compost settled leaving a gap so
only an inch of soil for the transplant and all the leaves went
orangey/reddish/brown, since recovered transplanting again.
N_Cook
Jun 26, 2023, 9:50:52 AM6/26/23
to
On 25/06/2023 15:39, N_Cook wrote:
> the leaves went orangey/reddish/brown, since recovered transplanting again
the brownish leaves turned green after a couple of days
> the leaves went orangey/reddish/brown, since recovered transplanting again
N_Cook
Jul 14, 2023, 7:53:04 AM7/14/23
to
One of the local echium owners who works a lot around many parts of
London had ever seen any there, and thought they must like sea air.
Saw some on news coverage near the pier at Bournemouth and googling
shows they are salt tolerant. So as another experiment I've planted some
just above the tide line of the local river, floods to that level
occassionally.
My wall planting experiment, surviving but I'd not say thriving
London had ever seen any there, and thought they must like sea air.
Saw some on news coverage near the pier at Bournemouth and googling
shows they are salt tolerant. So as another experiment I've planted some
just above the tide line of the local river, floods to that level
occassionally.
My wall planting experiment, surviving but I'd not say thriving
N_Cook
Aug 9, 2023, 9:12:50 AM8/9/23
to
Pretty sure the echium pininana I got from Ventnor Botanic gardens last
year in august, will not be flowering this year. If it survives the
second winter with some plastic hessian over frosts, going by the
present height , should be impressive next year.
The EP plant that came from pompey docks, Porters Garden this year is
alwost as big and some of my own seedlings of early this year are
thriving, coutesy of bunds of bits of bramble surrounding them.
My wall experiment (no watering by me required for many weeks, so much
rain) one and ones in saline ground are surviving
year in august, will not be flowering this year. If it survives the
second winter with some plastic hessian over frosts, going by the
present height , should be impressive next year.
The EP plant that came from pompey docks, Porters Garden this year is
alwost as big and some of my own seedlings of early this year are
thriving, coutesy of bunds of bits of bramble surrounding them.
My wall experiment (no watering by me required for many weeks, so much
rain) one and ones in saline ground are surviving
N_Cook
Sep 8, 2023, 3:55:46 AM9/8/23
to
I tried 30 or so of this years shaking and seed retrieval.
Only 2 germinated and instead of the bright lime green of the
germinations from last years seeds, dull green , slow growing and may be
turning grey, perhaps like last year (qv). Nothing to do with lack of
heat . I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the
fridge , to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
A few more echium sites in 2023
12 River Rd, Littlehampton
Houseboats at Pettinger Gardens, Southampton
Corner Kent Rd/ Ashburton Rd, Southsea
Opposite S Parade Pier along Clarebdon Rd,Southsea
Southsea Green community garden
Only 2 germinated and instead of the bright lime green of the
germinations from last years seeds, dull green , slow growing and may be
turning grey, perhaps like last year (qv). Nothing to do with lack of
heat . I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the
fridge , to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
A few more echium sites in 2023
12 River Rd, Littlehampton
Houseboats at Pettinger Gardens, Southampton
Corner Kent Rd/ Ashburton Rd, Southsea
Opposite S Parade Pier along Clarebdon Rd,Southsea
Southsea Green community garden
Jeff Layman
Sep 8, 2023, 5:00:09 AM9/8/23
to
On 08/09/2023 08:55, N_Cook wrote:
> I tried 30 or so of this years shaking and seed retrieval.
> Only 2 germinated and instead of the bright lime green of the
> germinations from last years seeds, dull green , slow growing and may be
> turning grey, perhaps like last year (qv). Nothing to do with lack of
> heat . I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the
> fridge , to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
> A few more echium sites in 2023
> 12 River Rd, Littlehampton
> Houseboats at Pettinger Gardens, Southampton
> Corner Kent Rd/ Ashburton Rd, Southsea
> Opposite S Parade Pier along Clarebdon Rd,Southsea
> Southsea Green community garden
>
I don't tend to visit Soton and Portsmouth in summer - too many visitors
> I tried 30 or so of this years shaking and seed retrieval.
> Only 2 germinated and instead of the bright lime green of the
> germinations from last years seeds, dull green , slow growing and may be
> turning grey, perhaps like last year (qv). Nothing to do with lack of
> heat . I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the
> fridge , to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
> A few more echium sites in 2023
> 12 River Rd, Littlehampton
> Houseboats at Pettinger Gardens, Southampton
> Corner Kent Rd/ Ashburton Rd, Southsea
> Opposite S Parade Pier along Clarebdon Rd,Southsea
> Southsea Green community garden
>
and too hot! It's a pity that there aren't any "giant" echiums grown at
the SHHG according to their database.
--
Jeff
N_Cook
Sep 8, 2023, 7:16:48 AM9/8/23
to
stems look that way. Unless pruning to stop flowering spikes might make
them quasi perennial. Light frosts knocking out the growing tips might
make them something like perennial.
Southsea is the capital in Hants and Sussex, plesant enough in summer,
peak of flowering examples July and Aug.
Otherwise IoW Ventnor , peak flowering time May and June.
I assume there are hotspots of echiums in Devon and Cornwall .
Jeff Layman
Sep 8, 2023, 7:53:01 AM9/8/23
to
<https://www.hants.gov.uk/thingstodo/hilliergardens/explore/centenary-border>
There are quite a lot of tender plants growing around Jermyn's House.
I was basing my comment about echiums on the SHHG database:
<https://websites.rbge.org.uk/multisite/?first=3>
I've seen echiums such as candicans and wildprettii growing in many
walled gardens far inland (maybe even Waterperry many years ago).
--
Jeff
N_Cook
Sep 10, 2023, 5:57:17 AM9/10/23
to
On 08/09/2023 08:55, N_Cook wrote:
> I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the fridge ,
> to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
Apparently this is termed,
> to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
cold stratification
,I'll try the simple dry version for a week.
Those 2 lone this season germinations are looking more and more unhealthy
N_Cook
Oct 3, 2023, 5:54:04 AM10/3/23
to
On 10/09/2023 10:57, N_Cook wrote:
> On 08/09/2023 08:55, N_Cook wrote:
>> I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the fridge ,
>> to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
>
> Apparently this is termed,
> cold stratification
> ,I'll try the simple dry version for a week.
> Those 2 lone this season germinations are looking more and more unhealthy
>
I tried 45 of this years seed in the fridge at 12 deg C for a week,then
> On 08/09/2023 08:55, N_Cook wrote:
>> I'll try putting some seeds in the nonfreezing section of the fridge ,
>> to see if they need a rest/cool period , for proper germination.
>
> Apparently this is termed,
> cold stratification
> ,I'll try the simple dry version for a week.
> Those 2 lone this season germinations are looking more and more unhealthy
>
sowing but only one seed germinated.
Perhaps it is just an age thing , simply store the seed in paper bags
for 6 months, as I doubt the winter temperature minimum of Madeira and
the Azores is much less than 12 deg C.
The two earlier this-year germinations have grown on normally.
Some recent Bournemouth spied echium pininana sites
Between Harry Ramsdens and the pier,
the garden of Russell Cotes gallery,
SE part of the central gardens around the "Picnic" concession,
seaward facing garden of Grand Marine Court, Durley Gardens.
N_Cook
Jan 15, 2024, 12:15:13 PM1/15/24
to
I was aware that IoW giant echiums started flowering in May, but it
looks as though they start their flower spike as early as mid Jan.
This is my oldest surviving one, 2 years from seed in March this year,
curved already, pic taken today. Hundreds of pics of charmingly wonky
full flower spikes on Google but none of their very early stage, that I
could find.
http://diverse.4mg.com/echium_flower_15jan24r.jpg
Hope its not tempting fate, they've all survived the frosts so far with
gauze protection on frosty nights.
The ones left to their own devices, buried in amongst brambles etc, if
they were large enough by the end of their first summer, seem to have
survived so far.
looks as though they start their flower spike as early as mid Jan.
This is my oldest surviving one, 2 years from seed in March this year,
curved already, pic taken today. Hundreds of pics of charmingly wonky
full flower spikes on Google but none of their very early stage, that I
could find.
http://diverse.4mg.com/echium_flower_15jan24r.jpg
Hope its not tempting fate, they've all survived the frosts so far with
gauze protection on frosty nights.
The ones left to their own devices, buried in amongst brambles etc, if
they were large enough by the end of their first summer, seem to have
survived so far.
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