Re: Germinating Judas tree seeds
Dave Hill
> Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
> to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
> dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
> success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
> with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
> --
> Sachawww.hillhousenursery.com
> South Devon
I raised a few from seed I collected in Malta, lost then one winter
about 3 or 4 years into their lives.
Never had any luck with seed collected in UK.
Stephen Wolstenholme
>Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
>to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
>dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
>success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
>with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
About 20 years ago brought a few pods back from Greece and distributed
them among some of the family members who are keen on gardening. Only
one seed grew. It lasted a few years in a conservatory but never
looked good.
Steve
Jeff Layman
> Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
> to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
> dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
> success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
> with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
Not of much help, perhaps, but seeds of the allied species C.
occidentalis (ex Chiltern Seeds) germinated the first year for me.
--
Jeff
Stephen Wolstenholme
>On 2011-06-02 14:54:52 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
>Our tree is outside in the mini arboretum 'up the field'. It was
>absolutely smothered in flowers earlier, so it's very frustrating re
>the seeds!
It must look great. I'm jealous.
Is it one of the varieties that has flowers growing on the trunk?
That was the reason I took a few pods. I was thinking it would be
wonderful to see one in the greenhouse. That was before I found out
they will grow outside in some parts of England. Maybe not up here in
the North.
Steve
Jeff Layman
> ripening? I'll try that idea out on Ray, thank you. But it is
> maddening to have a home-grown supply!
Just thinking about this for a moment, Cercis is a member of the
Fabaceae. Some other members benefit from a hot water soak first. As
you have plenty of spare seeds, try soaking for several hours (or
overnight) with boiling water (it will soon cool down), or at 60°C in an
old thermos flask.
If that doesn't get germination, you could always try using smoke to see
if that work. It was developed in South Africa, and also in Australia
to get recalcitrant seeds to break dormancy. Works well with many
seeds, although I've never heard of it being used with Cercis.
(http://www.google.co.uk/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&lr=&biw=1503&bih=641&source=hp&q=smoke+water+germination&aq=4&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&pbx=1)
FYI, even when they germinated, the C. occidentalis plants were very
slow getting going.
--
Jeff
Dave Hill
> On 02/06/2011 18:35, Sacha wrote:
>
>
> >> On 02/06/2011 13:46, Sacha wrote:
> >>> Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
> >>> to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
> >>> dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
> >>> success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
> >>> with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
>
> >> Not of much help, perhaps, but seeds of the allied species C.
> >> occidentalis (ex Chiltern Seeds) germinated the first year for me.
>
> > I wonder if it's a question of where the seeds are collected as in e.g.
> > ripening? I'll try that idea out on Ray, thank you. But it is
> > maddening to have a home-grown supply!
>
> Just thinking about this for a moment, Cercis is a member of the
> Fabaceae. Some other members benefit from a hot water soak first. As
> you have plenty of spare seeds, try soaking for several hours (or
> overnight) with boiling water (it will soon cool down), or at 60°C in an
> old thermos flask.
>
> If that doesn't get germination, you could always try using smoke to see
> if that work. It was developed in South Africa, and also in Australia
> to get recalcitrant seeds to break dormancy. Works well with many
> seeds, although I've never heard of it being used with Cercis.
>
> FYI, even when they germinated, the C. occidentalis plants were very
> slow getting going.
>
> --
>
> Jeff
If you have a few spare seed Sacha I'd love to try again, when you
think about it you don't find any seedlings growing under the parent
tree.
David
Pam Moore
>Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
>to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
>dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
>success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
>with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
I grew a Judas tree from a collected seed, and planted it in my front
garden. In several years I sowed seed from it but none ever
germinated but I found a self-sown seedling which I dug up but it
didn't survive!
The tree outgrew its place and had to be cut down. They are beautiful
trees but I've had to admit that I don't have the room for one.
Pam in Bristol
Dave Hill
> On 2011-06-02 19:43:19 +0100, Jeff Layman <JMLay...@invalid.invalid> said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 02/06/2011 18:35, Sacha wrote:
>
> >>> On 02/06/2011 13:46, Sacha wrote:
> >>>> Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
> >>>> to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
> >>>> dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
> >>>> success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
> >>>> with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
>
> >>> Not of much help, perhaps, but seeds of the allied species C.
> >>> occidentalis (ex Chiltern Seeds) germinated the first year for me.
>
> >> I wonder if it's a question of where the seeds are collected as in e.g.
> >> ripening? I'll try that idea out on Ray, thank you. But it is
> >> maddening to have a home-grown supply!
>
> > Just thinking about this for a moment, Cercis is a member of the
> > Fabaceae. Some other members benefit from a hot water soak first. As
> > you have plenty of spare seeds, try soaking for several hours (or
> > overnight) with boiling water (it will soon cool down), or at 60 C in an
> > old thermos flask.
>
> > If that doesn't get germination, you could always try using smoke to see
> > if that work. It was developed in South Africa, and also in Australia
> > to get recalcitrant seeds to break dormancy. Works well with many
> > seeds, although I've never heard of it being used with Cercis.
>
> FYI,
>
>
>
> > even when they germinated, the C. occidentalis plants were very
> > slow getting going.
>
> that. He hasn't done the smoke trick with those, though he has used it
> to great success with other plants which come from areas where fires
> and therefore, smoke, break the dormancy. I haven't seen anything to
> suggest that works with Cercis but it's worth a try and thank you for
> the suggestion. He's going to try cuttings too, just out of interest
> and optimism.
> --
> Sachawww.hillhousenursery.com
> South Devon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Found this on line
Cercis siliquastrum
Judas tree, redbud
Trees and Shrubs, Bonsai
Grow from seed surface sown in fall after pods have ripened and dried,
or nick seedcoat then stratify 3 months and sow in spring. Light aids
germination. Good light, alkaline and sandy, well-drained soil
preferred. Note that named cultivars will not come true from seed;
these may be bud-grafted late in summer. Zone 6-9
Jeff Layman
> On 2011-06-03 09:31:25 +0100, Dave Hill <da...@abacus-nurseries.co.uk> said:
> <snip>
>>
>> Found this on line
>> Cercis siliquastrum
>> Judas tree, redbud
>> Trees and Shrubs, Bonsai
>> Grow from seed surface sown in fall after pods have ripened and dried,
>> or nick seedcoat then stratify 3 months and sow in spring. Light aids
>> germination. Good light, alkaline and sandy, well-drained soil
>> preferred. Note that named cultivars will not come true from seed;
>> these may be bud-grafted late in summer. Zone 6-9
>
> this to him, too. Everyone seems to reports difficulties with them and
> very variable results.
That begs the question that if Cercis siliquastrum is so difficult,
where do the 48 commercial suppliers get them?
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/pfregions.asp?ID=24283
If it's by bud grafting, are they grafted onto C. canadensis?
--
Jeff
Emery Davis
> Ray is losing patience with our Cercis siliquastrum. He's been trying
> to get seeds to germinate for 3 years now and it can't be for want of a
> dormant period, given the last couple of winters! Has anyone else had
> success with this, or know of any tips, tricks etc? Ours is covered
> with seed pods, year after year - so frustrating!
Hi Sacha,
Coming late to this thread, but it just occurred that a technique
developed by an Aussie Maple Society fellow might help. He came up with
it out of frustration of watching seed fail year on year -- and I guess
it's difficult to import plants due to ag restrictions. It's dubbed
"Maple Caesarian Section" and is described in the Spring 2011 (Vol 21/1)
Society newsletter. The steps are (liberally paraphrasing the article
here and there):
- stratify as usual
- in spring, remove the pericarp to expose the inner capsule which, if
viable, is glistening. Seed with hard pericarps are best loosened by
holding the seed on the hinged end and applying gentle pressure with
pliers until the pericarp can be wedged apart.
- carefully scrape the inner capsule off, avoid touching the root tip.
- place the exposed embryos on the surface of usual germination mixture
and seal in plastic bags to maintain humidity.
- store in filtered sunlight [I'd use 80% shade cloth, but that's just
me] and cover the developing root with the usual mix.
- redirect root downward as needed (he mentions that the method
sometimes confuses the embryo as to up and down).
I haven't tried this yet but I do expect to be getting to it in the next
few years.
Just an idea, but who knows.
cheers,
-E
chemi...@gmail.com
You will be required to inspect all seeds prior to storing as these little beetles continue hatching (upon exit from seed a large exit hole is visible about 2-3 mm in diameter )
After inspection , scarify the seed (best done by pushing down on fine sand paper with index finger back and forth about 5 times. Then place scarified seeds in near boiling water for 12 hours or so, those seeds which are dead or a grown beetle has emerged will float) viable seeds should bloat to 3-5 x size (pretty obvious) decant water and then place seeds in alkaline, sandy soil that drains quickly I add CaCO3 and crush with mortar and pestle. titrate until pH is about 8-8.5 mix thoroughly using chop stick (large end) poke hole in soil (add water first) drop bloated seeds into hole and cover lightly. Make certain seeds are spaced at least one inch (reason obvious later in this post)
Place in refrigerator for 30 days or so...at no less than 4 C (evaporation of water will chill below surface and may freeze subsurface seeds) on occasion test soil moisture by dipping chop stick into soil and if particles stick it is wet enough. Add moisture to retain this aspect as needed.
Post 30 days (some may germinate in this medium those which have carefully remove with spoon digging down and plying up emerging radicle - I have not reached this stage but I am pursuing a published account of germination techniques - (contact me for reference) and allegedly the seeds are then ready to plant in similar soil in protected pot or a container which once planted will not be disturbed.
Post 30 days plant seeds that have not germinated into similar soil and follow above recommendation. These plants, trees are VERY SENSITIVE to root disturbance. VERY SENSITIVE. I have tried unsuccessfully to transplant 3 small plants and all have died. ONLY WHEN REMOVING surrounding soil around emerging plant (1 inch or so high will require about 3 inch diameter and 1 inch or more inches in depth) Those I have used this technique have survived.
This is a very very difficult tree to germinate (complex dormancy conditions) and some have used GA combinations to assist germination.
I can understand why this tree is so rare and expensive. However, it is one very beautiful tree and readily adapted to bonsai - certainly one which has fascinating florescence.
I will update progress on those plants I have successfully germinated (so far I have 4 out of some 20 seeds). I am hopeful the technique I state above will increase the percent germinated.
Repeat: To avoid planting infested seeds inspect first and discard those from storage container. The beetles will simply infest other seeds in your storage container leaving a larger number of seeds useless and little beetles roaming around your storage container.
Some may even be lucky enough to find a few "seeds" in a palm full of seeds moving. If so then you have active beetles which have just emerged from infested seeds.
Good luck and I hope to report some success from earlier germination process. I cannot guarantee results.
If anyone has had any success with other processes let me know. I will post pictures as available on my facebook page (under construction -it is named Lookout Ridge Nursery)
chemi...@gmail.com
chemi...@gmail.com
1) Inspect & throw out any seed which has been pierced by Gibbobruchus minus a weevil once pierced the larvae will slowly consume the ebdosperm.
2) once all seeds selected show no signs of forced entry u will need 10x magnification to see tiny puncture holes or exit hole 2 mm oval hole wide side- debride the seed - best accomplished with a wide file using index finger place seed on file place index finger over the seed & with enough force to feel rasping the seed coating (some evidence left on file - 3-6 times up & down the file surface perhaps moving it 1 inch each direction.
3) heat 250 ml water to boil let cool 1 minute ( use narrow coffee cup not one with large surface area) drop seeds in water
4) seeds either dead or where weevil has exited seed (has 2 mm oval hole usually at wider end- if u missed these during inspection) will not sink leave this for 24 hours
5) seeds successfully debrided will have swelled drain water separate swollen seeds ( 3-5 times original size if smaller repeat hot water process
6) swollen seeds will need to be placed in soil that will drain quickly through it must be alkaline at about pH 8. Clays soil with large > 0.5 mm < 1mm particles Use ashes from fire place or burned wood add ash to water titrate till pH 8
7) now sow seeds 10mm down add water and place in refrigerator @4 C 36-40 F for 30-40 days this step insures gibberillic acid concentration reaches point to cause germination. ( cold storage does this simulates wintering conditions cover and water occasionally to prevent drying out seeds or sprouts
8) Any sprouts ( they exhibit a 2 rather large leaves symmetrically emerge ) plant in similar soil in your planting space Be very careful these trees are very sensitive to root disruption you may have gone through this process only to find u killed it when transplanting.it is therefore recommended u plant them 60-90 mm apart so you can scoop out all soil around them
9) remainder of seeds: plant as above make certain u water but do not over water very drought resistent
10) u can buy gibberillic acid ,GA and soak in a soln to bypass the refrigerator process
I'm happy to pass on concentrations & process and supplier for GA contact me individually
Good luck
They are beautiful trees & with time wonderful bonsai sure to Garner accolades & if u sell them good coin in return for your labors & care
David Hill
It's germinating that's hard.