Puddled clay Garden Pond
TWStannard
'puddling' and how durable are they? Contemplating building a water
feature, and as I live on solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and
lifting! :o)
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nick dickenson
How big is the pond? This would help to determine the best way to puddle
the clay. Puddled clay is quite durable as long as you don't let it dry
out, which in turn would cause the clay to crack. There are various
factors that need to be taken into account with this type of pond ie the
water feed to the pond. Is this going to be a natural source or another
type of source? Let me know and I will try to help you further.
TWStannard
Im anticipating maybe 15 feet by 10 feet ish. It will be artificially fed
(ie hose pipe), maybe some kind of auto top up, if I can figure it out.
Tim
"nick dickenson" <ni...@ndickenson.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.01.07....@ndickenson.fsworld.co.uk...
Simon Avery
Hello TWStannard
T> Anyone have any experience of this type of pond? How does
T> one go about the 'puddling' and how durable are they?
T> Contemplating building a water feature, and as I live on
T> solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and lifting!
It was the only option before concrete and liners, and since then
isn't much used.
It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is naturally
wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a stream.
And if the water level drops then the clay dries out where it's
exposed and cracks.
Lot of work too, which is why most are done with liners these days. :)
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK İ http://www.digdilem.org/
A.Malhotra
Simon Avery wrote:
>
> "TWStannard" <twstanna...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> Hello TWStannard
>
> T> Anyone have any experience of this type of pond? How does
> T> one go about the 'puddling' and how durable are they?
> T> Contemplating building a water feature, and as I live on
> T> solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and lifting!
>
> It was the only option before concrete and liners, and since then
> isn't much used.
>
> It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is naturally
> wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a stream.
> And if the water level drops then the clay dries out where it's
> exposed and cracks.
One way round might be to line the pond edges with sacking so that it acts
as a wick and keeps the exposed area damp. Presumably it would need more
frequent topping up with such a system. However, deep rooted water plants
will eventually break through the puddled clay anyway and cause leaks. We
have a smallish pond in our boggy bit and are happy enough for it to be
periodically dry (we have other lined ponds) and eventually fill up with
irises.
Anita
>
> Lot of work too, which is why most are done with liners these days. :)
>
> --
> Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK İ http://www.digdilem.org/
--
***************************************************************************
Dr Anita Malhotra e-mail: a.mal...@bangor.ac.uk
School of Biological Sciences Tel(direct line): + 44 1248 383735
University of Wales Bangor Fax: + 44 1248 371644
Gwynedd LL57 2UW
United Kingdom
***************************************************************************
PaulK
"Simon Avery" <SPAM.B.GO...@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:10419...@digdilem.org...
> "TWStannard" <twstanna...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> Hello TWStannard
>
> T> Anyone have any experience of this type of pond? How does
> T> one go about the 'puddling' and how durable are they?
> T> Contemplating building a water feature, and as I live on
> T> solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and lifting!
>
> It was the only option before concrete and liners, and since then
> isn't much used.
>
> It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is naturally
> wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a stream.
> And if the water level drops then the clay dries out where it's
> exposed and cracks.
The cracking problem is really only a problem when clay is imported to form
a liner over permeable soils. I suspect that on solid clay the drying out
and leaking problem would be less significant.
Have a look in the books by Anthony archer wills, THE name in large scale
water features.
pk
Carol Russell
"TWStannard" <twstanna...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:eGvS9.38$vq3....@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> Thanks Nick
> Im anticipating maybe 15 feet by 10 feet ish. It will be artificially
fed
> (ie hose pipe), maybe some kind of auto top up, if I can figure it
out.
> Tim
Auto top up can be achieved as with capillary beds with the use of a
ball cock, in this case within a small tank sunk into the ground.
--
Art
Swap seeds and plants and visit many specialist garden forums at
Garden Web http://www.gardenweb.com
My Garden Web exchange page
http://www.gardenweb.com/members/exch/art1952
European Pages http://www.uk.gardenweb.com/
Zizz
"Carol Russell" <Russ...@queenborough42.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:avfcmt$ik8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
I have this graphic image of a toilet cistern sunk in with the lever being a
pedal which is trod upon to flush the cistern!
Wierd!
L
nick dickenson
An artificially fed, puddled clay pond of this size could prove to be
quite a headache in the summer when the water level drops due to
evaporation. The parts of the bank left exposed will have a tendency to
dry out and become cracked, which in turn will ruin the hard work that you
put in to puddle the clay in the first place. With a pond of this size it
may be better to use some form of liner. Also, with a pond of this size,
using puddled clay, if either fish or water fowl come into the equation
then you will nearly always have cloudy water to contend with. I know that
this can still be a problem with a liner, but it is alot worse using
puddled clay.
With regards to how you go about getting the clay puddled in the first
place, the way that I usually use is to hire a minidigger for a day (the
type with caterpillar tracks) and spend a day driving the thing over the
wet clay. It works a treat but this has always been on much larger ponds
where you have the room to manouvre the thing, and get the thing out
easily at the end of the day. I have this vision of a 10x15 feet pond with
a minidigger as a permanent central feature :-) It's different I suppose,
and looking at the recent entries at Chelsea may even make gold! ;-)
I would seriously consider using some form of liner. It will be easier to
maintain in the long run, and will allow you to enjoy your pond to the
full. At the end of the day that is what horticulture is all about. FUN!
I hope this is of some help.
Simon Avery
Hello A.Malhotra
>> It was the only option before concrete and liners, and
>> since then isn't much used. It /can/ work well,
>> apparently, but only if the ground is naturally wet all
>> the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a
>> stream. And if the water level drops then the clay dries
>> out where it's exposed and cracks.
AM> One way round might be to line the pond edges with sacking
AM> so that it acts as a wick and keeps the exposed area damp.
Um... Hessian sacking (nylon's non-absorbant so no use anyway) rots
very quickly when damp.
AM> Presumably it would need more frequent topping up with such
AM> a system. However, deep rooted water plants will eventually
AM> break through the puddled clay anyway and cause leaks.
Fair point, hadn't thought of that.
AM> We have a smallish pond in our boggy bit and are happy
AM> enough for it to be periodically dry (we have other lined
AM> ponds) and eventually fill up with irises. Anita
According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
liner will rise to the surface.
Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
liner.
Simon Avery
Hello PaulK
P> The cracking problem is really only a problem when clay is
P> imported to form a liner over permeable soils. I suspect
P> that on solid clay the drying out and leaking problem would
P> be less significant.
You're probably right, but even natural clay what has lived there for
millenia does dry out quite easily if allowed to. My old garden was
built on one of the largest ball-clay sites in Devon (Liverton
Coldeast estate for the locals) and with the obligatory new estate's
1" of grubby topsoil we had slimy soil in the winter and dust in the
summer. Just being clay doesn't automatically mean permanent wetness.
And now I've got a garden built over an old lead mine. :(
P> Have a look in the books by Anthony archer wills, THE name
P> in large scale water features.
Thanks, will keep an eye open.
Doing quite nicely with mine now, top pond (4' square, block) now
faced with granite, slate waterfall and 2nd small pond below all done.
To do: Line and fill big pond (5M x 15M), fit bubble fountain at top
point (12' lift), a 1/4 scale granite leat into top pond. Then a
series of ponds or slow stream from there to the big pond again.
The liner was supposed to be delivered today, but no way a lorry's
going to get up our road - needed my snowchains on to get the car up
just now. :(
Jon Rouse
ofthome.net> writes
>It was the only option before concrete and liners, and since then
>isn't much used.
Except in every canal in the country.
>
>It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is naturally
>wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a stream.
Not true. Canals are usually built higher than the surrounding land to
prevent flooding.
>And if the water level drops then the clay dries out where it's
>exposed and cracks.
If it is thick enough then it takes a good while to dry out. Canals have
breeches, but as long as they are fixed within a few days the puddle is
not damaged.
>Lot of work too, which is why most are done with liners these days. :)
You do it in your bare feet, and get all the local kids involved. Don't
put the red carpet out though!
Jon
--
Jon Rouse
Janet Tweedy
>
>It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is naturally
>wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy area with a stream.
>And if the water level drops then the clay dries out where it's
>exposed and cracks.
>
>Lot of work too, which is why most are done with liners these days. :)
A friend has a very, very large pond in her garden, ( about 80' x 60')
built in the wettest part with trees all round so shaded, they hired a
digger and flattened the surface with the bucket part thumped up and
down, all over before allowing it to fill naturally. Seems to have
worked for the last eight years
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
nick dickenson
Liners will rise in a pond due to the decomposition of organic matter
below the liner. As long as any organic matter (ie dead leaves etc) are
removed prior to the laying down of the liner, then it shouldn't fill with
gas and rise.
Robert
TWStannard <twstanna...@ntlworld.com> writes
>Anyone have any experience of this type of pond? How does one go about the
>'puddling' and how durable are they? Contemplating building a water
>feature, and as I live on solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and
>lifting! :o)
This may be of some help - I first posted this to a similar question a
few years ago.
Here is an extract from The Book of the Garden Pond by George Hervey &
Jack Hems, published by Stanley Paul in 1958.
"The introduction of cement has enabled the gardener to build a pond at
no great expense, with the minimum of hard work and with a guarantee of
its durability. Once, however, the gardener was compelled to make a pond
of clay or go without. Today ponds of puddled clay are rarely seen,
except in districts where clay predominates in the local soil. A clay
pond has the virtue of being more in keeping with a natural pond, but
that is about its only virtue. It calls for considerable skill if it is
to be made watertight (and that surely a pond must be), and for so much
hard work that posterity would hardly have raised a surprised eyebrow if
Eurystheus had included one among the tasks that he set Hercules.
A hole is dug to the required size ('Easy the way down to hell'). The
clay, which must be free from stones and the like, is collected ('But to
retrace your steps'), soaked and puddled to the consistency of
plasticine. The puddling must be done thoroughly if the pond is to be
watertight ('To regain the upper air') and straw may be worked into the
clay, to act as a binding agent, although it is not absolutely
necessary. When the clay has been thoroughly puddled ('There lies the
task, there lies the toil') the excavation is lined with crushed clinker
and small stones, and a layer of soot, about three inches thick, to
discourage worms. The clay is laid over it to a depth of at least eight
inches. it is rammed down until the surface is almost dry, perfectly
smooth and free from air-holes. The walls of the pond should be built in
the same way, not however, vertically, but sloping slightly outwards to
lessen the risk of their caving in. The pond should be rinsed and filled
before the clay is allowed to dry, and must be kept filled at all times,
because once the clay dries it cracks.
Puddled clay is suitable only for a small pond, and even so, is not
always to be trusted. Clay ponds are very liable to spring leaks,
particularly when roots of the water plants penetrate the clay, or worms
tunnel into it, soot not withstanding".
--
Robert
PaulK
> On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:33:13 +0000, Simon Avery wrote:
>
>
> >
> > According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
> > using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
> > liner will rise to the surface.
> >
> > Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
> > above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
> > liner.
No, it is a well documented phenomena. The hippopotamus effect!
I'll leave the mental image to the reader to construct.
pk
Simon Avery
Hello Jon
>> It was the only option before concrete and liners, and
>> since then isn't much used.
JR> Except in every canal in the country.
Very good point.
>> It /can/ work well, apparently, but only if the ground is
>> naturally wet all the time anyway - ie, a low lying boggy
>> area with a stream.
JR> Not true. Canals are usually built higher than the
JR> surrounding land to prevent flooding.
But supplied with flowing water, and a certain amount of leakage is a
given and factored into the design when built, and the scale of
building is somewhat more than a garden pond. There's also a
considerable amount of effort gone into keeping the level exactly so.
But not many canals being built these days, so difficult to say
whether a modern material would be used in preference.
JOOI, do you know if anyone's done any costings on whether imported
clay works out cheaper than, for example, butyl (4ukp per square
metre)?
>> Lot of work too, which is why most are done with liners
>> these days. :)
JR> You do it in your bare feet, and get all the local kids
JR> involved. Don't put the red carpet out though!
:)
A.Malhotra
Simon Avery wrote:
> According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
> using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
> liner will rise to the surface.
>
> Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
> above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
> liner.
>
> --
> Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK İ http://www.digdilem.org/
Well, it hasn't in our three lined ponds! One of our friends had that
problem: but the water was flowing pretty fast in his case, at least in
winter. Ours just seeps.
Anita
Simon Avery
Hello nick
>> According to some (not all) of the books
>> I've read about ponding, using normal liners in saturated
>> ground is a bad idea, and say the liner will rise to the
>> surface. Personally I've got my doubts about that, given
>> the weight of water above it, and that the water is the
>> same density above or below the liner.
nd> Liners will rise in a pond due to the decomposition of
nd> organic matter below the liner. As long as any organic
nd> matter (ie dead leaves etc) are removed prior to the laying
nd> down of the liner, then it shouldn't fill with gas and rise.
Ooh, that does make sense, and thank you for the first rational answer
to that question I've ever heard. The books specifically state water
pushing it up, but yours does have an element of plausibility about
it - although how much organic matter would be in the subsoil at the
bottom of a (non-raised) pond I'm not sure.
nick dickenson
The offending organic matter that causes the problem is usually the type
that falls into the hole once it is dug (ie fallen leaves and other plant
matter such as grass, bits of weeds etc etc) These should be cleaned prior
to the laying of the liner or they will decompose and release gasses in
the process. It is these gasses that cause the liner to rise. Therefore,
if you dig your pond in the Autumn and it is going to be a couple of weeks
or so before you lay the liner, make sure you clear out the dead leaves
completely before you lay the liner or you will run into problems.
I can't see how water could cause the liner to rise? I would have thought
that water would take the path of least resistance, so if your pond is in
the way it would surely track sideways and find another exit. Or maybe I'm
wrong, it has been a long time since I was last at school!! Also, I always
thought that water finds "its own level" and if that is the case you are
more in danger of the water wanting to get out of your pond rather than
water trying to find its way in :-)
Thank you for your kind comments above though.
Steve Jackson
<SPAM.B.GO...@softhome.net> writes
>According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
>using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
>liner will rise to the surface.
>
>Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
>above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
>liner.
Simon
At my last house I built a 5m x 5m pond in a renowned clay area during a
drought.
Once it rained heavily, my liner lifted in waterlogged soils and
destroyed all the hard work.
It had to be drained and I put in a 2m deep 'soak away' lined with
gravel and led the ground water off into a distant ditch - this cost a
lot of money!
Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth.
--
Steve Jackson
Steve Jackson
<SPAM.B.GO...@softhome.net> writes
Just to come back in here again, in my case there was no organic
material in the hole once the liner was removed - all there was was a
hole full of dirty brown water!
--
Steve Jackson