Pyracantha scratches dangerous?
Joanna Holland
on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
while pruning it. Are pyracanthas poisonous, or do they
carry particularly nasty diseases of some sort on their
thorns? Is this sort of accident common?
Please let me know, as mine needs cutting back badly, but I
don't fancy a hospital visit :) Thanks.
--
Joanna Holland
[joa...@collegium.co.uk]
Morley
Joanna Holland wrote in message ...
>I've just been told of a friend who ended up in hospital
>on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
>gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
>[joa...@collegium.co.uk]
>
I haven't heard this about pyracantha in particular, but a friend of mine
nearly died of blood poisoning following a scratch from a rose bush. The
bush had recently been sprayed and his near death was put down to that. I
wonder if your friend had been using something similar, or if something
toxic could have drifted onto that bush? Morley
Nick Maclaren
Without knowing the details, it is hard to say. If the hospital DID
put someone on intravenous antibiotics as treatment for chemical
poisoning, there are good grounds for suing them for negligence.
Antibiotics are appropriate for bacterial infections, in cancer
treatment, and against a FEW other classes of organism. So I doubt
that it was treatment against the pyracantha scratch as such.
[ Aside: if you get bitten by an adder, and someone even mentions
antibiotics or waves a needle without first saying that it contains
antivenin, fight vigorously and threaten to sue. Seriously. You
are more likely to be permanently injured by the antibiotic/venom
reaction than the untreated bite. ]
Yes, pyracantha does carry a poison. I react slightly, and pruning
mine leaves me with sore, red places everyhere I get a thorn in.
After I have dug the thorn out, they go down in a day or two. They
are also merely slightly painful and not disabling, so not serious.
Most people seem to react similarly.
It is more likely (in both cases) that the infectious organism was
carried on the person's skin and not on the thorn, but the thorn
scratch allowed it entry to the bloodstream. For example, almost
everyone carries staphylococcus aureus on their skin; usually it
causes nothing more than spots, but occasionally it infects more
deeply and then becomes very serious.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email: nm...@cam.ac.uk
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679
helen....@nri.org
"Morley" <fa...@swhl.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Joanna Holland wrote in message ...
> >I've just been told of a friend who ended up in hospital
> >on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
> >gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
> <snip>>Joanna Holland
> >[joa...@collegium.co.uk]
> >
> I haven't heard this about pyracantha in particular, but a friend of mine
> nearly died of blood poisoning following a scratch from a rose bush. The
> bush had recently been sprayed and his near death was put down to that. I
> wonder if your friend had been using something similar, or if something
> toxic could have drifted onto that bush? Morley
>
Pyracantha is not intrinsically poisonous (unless you're daft enough to eat
it, I suppose), but the thorns can be truly vicious. I had to prune several
very overgrown plants when my parents moved into a new house a few years ago
- I got pretty thoroughly scratched (it was hot, so I wore a T-shirt, but
since skin heals up and shirt-fabric doesn't it seemed like a good idea at
the time) and still bear the psychological scars....However, no nasty
side-effects or trips to the hospital. I would suspect that your friend
ended up in hospital because of some dirt on the thorns - when you're done, I
suggest having a nice long soak in a hot bath spiked with plenty of Dettol,
or similar.
BTW, the pruned plants are thriving now, despite having lost up to two thirds
of their branches to my pruning saw - I swear they keep trying to grab me for
a spot of vengeance whenever I walk by !
Helen.
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Jon S Green
> I've just been told of a friend who ended up in hospital
> on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
> gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
> while pruning it. Are pyracanthas poisonous, or do they
> carry particularly nasty diseases of some sort on their
> thorns? Is this sort of accident common?
It's as likely to be either a random infection introduced by the thorn,
or a strong allergic response, as some kind of poison. We've several
Pyrocanthus bushes, and I've been scratched before with no ill effect,
so I'm less inclined to suspect poison. If the docs put her on
antibiotics, they presumably believed it was an infection rather than
one of the other two cases. (Either that or they're overprescribing.
Again.)
If you're worried, wear leather gloves and (preferably) a leather bike
jacket whilst pruning ... but I personally wouldn't worry overmuch.
Jon
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[hint- don't leave the cuttings around they don't degrade for years!
But never any adverse effects other than the immediate hurt itself. I
have found, pruning evergreen bushes- yews in particular but generalize
to be safe- even wearing long-sleeved clothing- they are insiduous [in
their ability to prick] and have experienced toxic reactions [less
serious but not totally unlike poison ivy].
--
Judith Lea
writes
It's not an intrusion, welcome to urg as your reply is entirely relevant.
--
Judith Lea
MuckEpup
Maclaren) writes:
>Without knowing the details, it is hard to say. If the hospital DID
>put someone on intravenous antibiotics as treatment for chemical
>poisoning, there are good grounds for suing them for negligence.
>Antibiotics are appropriate for bacterial infections, in cancer
>treatment, and against a FEW other classes of organism. So I doubt
>that it was treatment against the pyracantha scratch as such.
It might have been for tetanus, which lives in soil and quite often enters the
bloodstream through scratches from rose thorns etc. I ALWAYS make sure I get my
tetanus jab every 10 yrs.
Nick Maclaren
It wouldn't have been intravenous antibiotics, and the symptoms are
entirely different. Yes, it is routine to give a tetanus booster
if a gardener cannot remember the date of the last one, but it is
a single injection.
The obvious suspect is some bacterium on the skin (staphylococcus
aureus being Public Enemy Number One in this respect) that gained
entry through the scratch.
MuckEpup
Maclaren) writes:
>It wouldn't have been intravenous antibiotics, and the symptoms are
>entirely different. Yes, it is routine to give a tetanus booster
>if a gardener cannot remember the date of the last one, but it is
>a single injection.
>
Am no medical expert so I was just speculating :-)
Mind you, who would think to have a tetanus jab just from a nasty thorn
scratch? Tetanus could develop and a jab would be worthless then. That's why I
make sure mine are always up to date - afterall your local practice nurse will
give you a booster for free every ten yrs! :-)
Nick Maclaren
MuckEpup <muck...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <6t920k$5dg$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick
>Maclaren) writes:
>
>>It wouldn't have been intravenous antibiotics, and the symptoms are
>>entirely different. Yes, it is routine to give a tetanus booster
>>if a gardener cannot remember the date of the last one, but it is
>>a single injection.
>
>Am no medical expert so I was just speculating :-)
I am not, either, but have a packrat mind and quite a lot of personal
experience.
>Mind you, who would think to have a tetanus jab just from a nasty thorn
>scratch? Tetanus could develop and a jab would be worthless then. That's why I
>make sure mine are always up to date - afterall your local practice nurse will
>give you a booster for free every ten yrs! :-)
It is almost impossible to get tetanus from a scratch - it will live
only in anaerobic conditions. However, you COULD get it from a thorn
(with soil on) getting stuck in your finger. Your strategy is the
one that virtually every sane gardener adopts - the rare exception
being usually the (very few) people who are allergic to the injection.
nightjar
MuckEpup wrote in message
<199809101656...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
>It might have been for tetanus,
Having had a couple, as well as a few Pyracanthus scratches, I can say
that the symptoms and treatment do suggest a Staph. infection. In one case
it took two different antibiotics to clear up the swelling.
Colin Bignell
Michael Kingston
> [hint- don't leave the cuttings around they don't degrade for years!
>
> But never any adverse effects other than the immediate hurt itself.
attached to very stiff limbs that they penetrate the skin to a greater
depth than your average rose, blackberry etc.
It can be painful and the pain lasts quite a while. I'm prepared to
believe it's a poison or an allergic reaction (not that I'm aware I get
may of those), but maybe it's just it's the greater penetration.
Even worse in all respects are thorns of blackthorn (sloe - that's why I
get close to them!)
Mike Kingston .........................
Kay Bullen at Hedgehog Helpline
Nick Maclaren wrote in message <6t9g1m$ecs$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
>In article <199809102033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>MuckEpup <muck...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <6t920k$5dg$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick
>It is almost impossible to get tetanus from a scratch - it will live
>only in anaerobic conditions. However, you COULD get it from a thorn
>(with soil on) getting stuck in your finger. Your strategy is the
>one that virtually every sane gardener adopts - the rare exception
>being usually the (very few) people who are allergic to the injection.
>
I think there is a higher risk of tetanus if horse manure is used in the
garden. The only case of tetanus I have seen was in a puppy that was
teething and it had ben "playing" with donkey dung at a seaside beach. That
was some years ago.
Keep tetanus jabs up to date unless you always wear gloves for gardening.
It is surprising the number of scratches and nicks you get when gardening.
Prevention is better than cure. (Also if you go abroad a tetanus jab is
often recommended.)
Kay
MuckEpup
Helpline" <hed...@dircon.co.uk> writes:
>I think there is a higher risk of tetanus if horse manure is used in the
>garden. The only case of tetanus I have seen was in a puppy that was
>teething and it had ben "playing" with donkey dung at a seaside beach. That
>was some years ago.
I never thought about dogs getting tetanus! I dont think it is included in
thier routine annual jabs is it?
My dog doesn't dig so much now she is adult, but still like s to 'copy' me if I
an 'digging' in the garden (in her mind - doing anythig in the garden that
involves even the TINIEST soil disturbance, like weeding LOL. Reminds me of
when I was planting out some rooted cuttings - Pippa followed me and dug every
one I planted up again! :-) )
MuckEpup
Maclaren) writes:
>It is almost impossible to get tetanus from a scratch - it will live
>only in anaerobic conditions. However, you COULD get it from a thorn
>(with soil on) getting stuck in your finger. Your strategy is the
>one that virtually every sane gardener adopts - the rare exception
>being usually the (very few) people who are allergic to the injection.
A poster in the docs surgery with a photo of a rose on reminded me that my
tetanus was almost out of date! :-)
Every 10 yrs is EASY to forget, but I had a motorcycle accident at 19 (which
sticks in my mind) when I had a tet. jab so it is easy for me to calculate when
I need the next one :-)
To coin a cliche, "better safe than sorry" , especially when the jab is free
;-)
MuckEpup
("Michael Kingston") writes:
>Even worse in all respects are thorns of blackthorn (sloe - that's why I
>get close to them!)
>Mike Kingston .........................
>
So, how is you sloe gin comming along? LOL :-D
Martin Tom Brown
<905414627.6604.0...@news.demon.co.uk>
fa...@swhl.nospam.demon.co.uk "Morley" wrote:
> Joanna Holland wrote in message ...
> >I've just been told of a friend who ended up in hospital
> >on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
> >gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
> <snip>>Joanna Holland
> I haven't heard this about pyracantha in particular, but a friend of mine
> nearly died of blood poisoning following a scratch from a rose bush.
That certainly wouldn't surprise me, as many of the thorny rosaceae
have odd symbiotic relationships with bacteria that live on their
thorns (and secrete something to help the bacteria live there).
There might be something on one of the specialist rose lists.
It's why rose scratches hurt more than ordinary grazes, the cut
is always infected but most peoples immune system wins quickly.
> bush had recently been sprayed and his near death was put down to that. I
> wonder if your friend had been using something similar, or if something
> toxic could have drifted onto that bush? Morley
I'd guess a few people may be allergic to whatever they are.
Regards,
--
Martin Brown <mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> __ CIS: 71651,470
Scientific Software Consultancy /^,,)__/
eireca...@gmail.com
> I've just been told of a friend who ended up in hospital
> on intravenous antibiotics after her arm swelled to
> gargantuan proportions due to being scratched by a pyracanthus
> carry particularly nasty diseases of some sort on their
> thorns? Is this sort of accident common?
> don't fancy a hospital visit :) Thanks.
> --
> Joanna Holland
> [joa...@collegium.co.uk]
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002380050254
It is a medical paper of 3 cases of people tangling with Pyracantha and the need to inform medical personnel that even small thorns may be still resident within the wound.
best of luck,
Jim C.
David Hill
Blackthorn (Prunus spinosa) otherwise known as the devils thorn I would
not have been surprised.
I am not very susceptible to thorn sticks, having probably had running
into the thousands over my lifetime as I hate wearing gloves, and the
only ones ever to give me trouble have been blackthorn.
David @ a damp side of Swansea Bay.
Spider
unpleasant injuries. I live with a Pyracantha hedge which is over 100ft
in length and have pruned it many times. I often come away with many
scratches, depending on whether I'm doing heavy rejuvenation pruning or
a lighter trim. No scratch, however long, has really harmed me. I have
once or twice in 35yrs received a thorn in a joint in my finger or hand
and these injuries are the worst. The big problem is an infection with
inflamation known as Cellulitis and it can be serious. I've had time in
hospital myself receiving iv antibiotic injections. It only became this
serious because I didn't know what I was dealing with. I now do, and
the moment a puncture gives me cause for concern, I call on the doc for
antibiotics.
There is no reason why you shouldn't tackle your Pyracantha hedge.
Although it won't help with Cellulitis, make sure you're up to date with
your tetanus injection, wear gloves as much as possible and stop work
when you're too tired to concentrate. This is my weakness; I work
apparently tireless when my brain should tell me I'm exhausted. I've
even had a nasty thorn puncture to a joint, suffered from shock, but
refused to stop. I think I'm probably obsessive about my hedge. You can
learn from my mistakes. Pyracantha doesn't bite - it's more that
weary/foolish gardeners cram their fists in its 'mouth'.
Do your job, but take extreme care.
--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay
Jeff Layman
up to its tricks again...
But, just to ensure everyone who gardens is aware of how serious finger
infections can be, if you get a finger injury from a thorn and your
finger starts to swell and get hot, you /must/ get to your local
hospital A & E without delay. This type of finger injury is known as a
"felon", and is considered a medical emergency. If you leave it, you
risk losing your finger, and maybe more.
--
Jeff