Ivy on Silver Birch

[thescullster]

Hi all

It must be the time of year - 2 posts on the same day!

We have a pretty mature silver birch in the corner of our garden.
Until yesterday it was covered in ivy to two thirds of its height.

The questions are:

Does an ivy cover actually damage the tree? I noticed that some hidden
areas were damp and housing wood lice due to the cover. Maybe the
tendrils of the ivy suck nutrients from the host tree?

Also, I have a bird box on the side of the tree which had become
engulfed in ivy. Would this make the birds more wary, as there would be
perches for predators maybe?

Thanks

Phil

[News]

In message <nj38cs$ihs$1...@dont-email.me>, thescullster <ph...@nospam.com>
writes

>
>Also, I have a bird box on the side of the tree which had become
>engulfed in ivy. Would this make the birds more wary, as there would
>be perches for predators maybe?

I have absolutely no knowledge of bird habits, except to say that we
have fairly substantial ivy covering an old outbuilding, and blackbirds
nest in the ivy every year. Drives cats and dogs insane, but the ivy,
although long established and substantial, will not support even a cat,
so the birds remain safe.
--
Graeme

[Ian Jackson]

In message <80aalblcve3te38c5...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:23:08 +0100, thescullster <ph...@nospam.com>
>wrote:

>AIUI ivy on trees is not a problem unless it gets so dense and
>extensive that there is a danger it will cause the tree to topple, in
>a winter gale for example. But that's unusual. The tendrils or 'roots'
>that you see along the ivy stems are not roots in the usual sense, in
>that the ivy does not use them for drawing nourishment from the tree;
>their only purpose is to cling on to whatever the ivy is climbing.
>
>I doubt that the ivy would make the birds more wary of using the box;
>On the contrary in fact, it would provide more camouflage and make the
>birds feel safer, provided of course they can gain entry and the hole
>isn't covered or blocked. The insects that live in the ivy are a
>source of food for birds.
>
>If you don't want the ivy there, for cosmetic reasons, just cut
>through the ivy stems where they come out of the ground at the base of
>the tree. The ivy will die and look unsightly for a while until all
>the leaves have browned and dropped, but after that all that will be
>left will be bare ivy stems, which can either be left on the tree or
>removed after a year or two. Kill any new growth that comes from the
>base.

A 60 foot ash tree (just outside the end of my back garden) was suddenly
killed by ivy.

One spring, it had just started to come into leaf, when I noticed they
were withering. I found that the ivy which had been growing up it had
got under the bark (a few feet off the ground), and lifted it -
effectively ring-barking it.

There's another ash about 20 feet away, so I occasionally pop over the
fence and chop any ivy trying to gain a foothold.
>

--
Ian

[Ian Jackson]

In message <7ncelbdvgd4tg6ja7...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
<m...@privacy.net> writes

>On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:59:01 +0100, Ian Jackson
><ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>A 60 foot ash tree (just outside the end of my back garden) was suddenly
>>killed by ivy.
>>
>>One spring, it had just started to come into leaf, when I noticed they
>>were withering. I found that the ivy which had been growing up it had
>>got under the bark (a few feet off the ground), and lifted it -
>>effectively ring-barking it.
>

>Did the ivy lift the bark, or was the bark already lifting and the ivy
>just grew into the space?

I can't be certain. but the bark was thick, gnarly and 'corky'.

> I ask, because I have a substantial Olearia
>Traversii that is dying and the bark is lifting at the base of the
>trunk, but there's no ivy there causing or helping it to lift. It's
>diseased.
>
The tree wasn't visibly diseased. Most likely the ivy just got into some
cracks in the bark.
--
Ian

[Spider]

You didn't think it might be Ash Die-Back (Chalara fraxinea)??
I believe this disease is reportable.
The poor ivy was probably innocent.
--
Spider
On high ground in SE London
Gardening on heavy clay

[Ian Jackson]

In message <dros3u...@mid.individual.net>, Spider
<spi...@invalid.com> writes

This was about 10 years ago - so before Ash Die-Back was 'invented'.

Around here (S Bucks) - or, for that matter, anywhere else - I've yet to
see any signs of Ash Die-Back.

>The poor ivy was probably innocent.

No way! It was caught red-handed - on the job - in delicto flagrante (so
to speak). I did remove it carefully from where the bark had been
lifted, in the hope that the trunk would heal up (some trees seem to be
able to do this) - but the victim had been mortally wounded.
--
Ian

[Peter Robinson]

Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> A 60 foot ash tree (just outside the end of my back garden) was suddenly
> killed by ivy.
>
> One spring, it had just started to come into leaf, when I noticed they
> were withering. I found that the ivy which had been growing up it had
> got under the bark (a few feet off the ground), and lifted it -
> effectively ring-barking it.

I have never ring barked a tree, but if I did shouldn't I expect it to
sprout vigorously from the base as if coppiced? If you cut down an ash
and leave the stump, it will definitely do that. This does not convince
me the ivy was at fault.

Peter

[Janet]

In article <1moloka.1oqdaq01e8i438N%pmrob...@gmx.net>,
pmrob...@gmx.net says...

You can't compare the two.

Some trees coppice readily (willow, ash, chestnut). Birch doesn't.

Years ago I bought some land with a wood of around 100 birch trees; it
had previously been grazed by half a dozen hungry ponies who had
recently ringbarked some of the younger birch trees,and those trees
died.

This does not convince
> me the ivy was at fault.

Me neither. I think it far likelier the old birch bark had
lifted/loosened for some other reason (disease or insect attack) and
the ivy got underneath and forced it off. Birch are relatively
shortlived trees (unlike ash).

Janet

[Spider]

Well, it wasn't Ash Die-Back, then!

I'd still be surprised if the ivy killed the tree. Ivies only cling to
trees, they don't feed via the bark. However the ivy roots do feed in
close proximity to the tree and therefore deplete the available food,
but I would expect an Ash tree to starve the ivy, not the other way
round. I suspect another cause, though, such as a lightning strike or
some critter ripping the bark off. *Then* the ivy might start to grip
the tree under the bark.

As to ivy killing trees, it tends only to happen when the mature ivy
(with larger leaves) is growing in the crown of the tree. In wet and
windy weather, the extra windage on the large leaves is enough to cause
the tree to topple, especially when coupled with saturated soil.

Provided you can keep the ivy out of the crown of your silver birch, you
should have no problems.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <1moloka.1oqdaq01e8i438N%pmrob...@gmx.net>,

Not all trees will do that, but ash will. As people said, it is very
unlikely indeed that the ivy killed the tree - while it can happen,
it could not possibly get under ash bark (which is very 'tight') and
lift it. There are a zillion fungal, bacterial and similar diseases
that show up as lifting bark.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <ds2e37...@mid.individual.net>,

Spider <spi...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>As to ivy killing trees, it tends only to happen when the mature ivy
>(with larger leaves) is growing in the crown of the tree. In wet and
>windy weather, the extra windage on the large leaves is enough to cause
>the tree to topple, especially when coupled with saturated soil.

It does that only when the tree is growing very slowly - no way
can ivy keep up with a healthy silver birch! I believe that it
can grow completely round a tree and strangle it, but I have never
seen that - it's extremely rare if it happens.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <njhiit$83e$1...@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren
<n...@wheeler.UUCP> writes

>In article <1moloka.1oqdaq01e8i438N%pmrob...@gmx.net>,
>Peter Robinson <pmrob...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> A 60 foot ash tree (just outside the end of my back garden) was suddenly
>>> killed by ivy.
>>>
>>> One spring, it had just started to come into leaf, when I noticed they
>>> were withering. I found that the ivy which had been growing up it had
>>> got under the bark (a few feet off the ground), and lifted it -
>>> effectively ring-barking it.
>>
>>I have never ring barked a tree, but if I did shouldn't I expect it to
>>sprout vigorously from the base as if coppiced? If you cut down an ash
>>and leave the stump, it will definitely do that. This does not convince
>>me the ivy was at fault.
>
>Not all trees will do that, but ash will. As people said, it is very
>unlikely indeed that the ivy killed the tree - while it can happen,
>it could not possibly get under ash bark (which is very 'tight') and
>lift it.

Well, the bark WAS lifted, and the ivy WAS growing under it. Of course,
it's possible that the bark had been 'mechanically' damaged - but the
tree was rather inaccessible, and I can't think of anything that would
have done it.

> There are a zillion fungal, bacterial and similar diseases
>that show up as lifting bark.

Yes, it could have been - but I'm sure the ivy did the main killing.

However, at the time, both trees were growing well. At one time, both
had been at least 50' high, and then were lopped to around 30'. After
that, their growth went absolutely berserk, and soon both were back to
at least their original height.

And then, as I said, one suddenly started wilting soon after coming into
leaf. Its mate (about 25' away) continued alone (minus the ivy, on which
I made a pre-emptive strike) - and it is now 65 - maybe 70 - feet high.

The dead ash was cut down (I now recall it was 2003), and its stump was
left around 6' high. It has shown no signs of sprouting. After a couple
of years, where its roots extended into my garden, there was a
considerable growth of large clumps of orange mushrooms. As I had
various bushes nearby, I thought it would be wise to discourage it in
future (Weedol worked well), and these days I only get the odd mushroom
or two.



>
>

--
Ian

[Jeff Layman]

Ivy behaving like a "strangler fig", eh? Can't say I've ever seen it
happening, either. It seems to me that ivy tends to grow up rather than
round (strangler figs grow down /and/ round, of course). I have a few
trees, mainly conifers, which have been taken over by ivy - one in
particular has a lot more ivy leaves than conifer leaves! But I'll have
a look later to see if there are any encircling growths, rather than
well-spaced "spiral" growths, which I would perhaps expect, and which
would not strangle the tree they are growing on.

The main problem with ivy on conifers is that they disfigure them; once
the tree's lower growth has been smothered, it never grows back, and
even higher up the tree eventually looks like it has the arboreal
equivalent of mange!

I think the OP's finding of ivy under the bark was coincidental to the
bark already being damaged by some pathogen. Ivy will happily find its
way into any gap - roof tiles being a favourite. There is a galvanised
steel coal bunker here, and I was amazed to find ivy growing /inside/
it. It had found its way in through a tiny gap in an overlapping corner
seam at the bottom of the bunker, and was growing up to reach the light
allowed in by the ill-fitting cover.

--

Jeff

[Peter Robinson]

Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The dead ash was cut down (I now recall it was 2003), and its stump was
> left around 6' high. It has shown no signs of sprouting. After a couple
> of years, where its roots extended into my garden, there was a
> considerable growth of large clumps of orange mushrooms. As I had
> various bushes nearby, I thought it would be wise to discourage it in
> future (Weedol worked well), and these days I only get the odd mushroom
> or two.

Are you saying you used Weedol to control the mushrooms?

Peter

[Ian Jackson]

In message <1moq6n4.1553vz61r6a7psN%pmrob...@gmx.net>, Peter Robinson
<pmrob...@gmx.net> writes

Yes. I gave them a quick spray, and they soon started to shrivel-up.
Next day, they were totally wrecked. The following year, there were far
fewer - and rarely any since then.

Or am I doing the wrong thing by inhibiting the natural decomposition of
the ash root system - which, of course, is considerable?
--
Ian

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <njj4n1$4nl$1...@news.albasani.net>,

Jeff Layman <JMLa...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>Ivy behaving like a "strangler fig", eh? Can't say I've ever seen it
>happening, either. It seems to me that ivy tends to grow up rather than
>round (strangler figs grow down /and/ round, of course).

Right. I have seen ivy fork and rejoin, like a strangler fig, but
never enough to form a complete circuit. I have seen it distort
the growth of a tree, so I deduce that strangling a tree is (in
theory) possible a few times in a million.

>I think the OP's finding of ivy under the bark was coincidental to the
>bark already being damaged by some pathogen. Ivy will happily find its

>way into any gap - roof tiles being a favourite. ...

Absolutely. If he could provide serious evidence of his hypothesis,
it would be publishable in an academic journal as a phenomenon new to
science.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <ktcqlb5inhnscqr12...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
<m...@privacy.net> writes

>Sounds to me like your ash tree was killed by Armillaria (Honey
>fungus), which can cause sudden failure, lesions in the bark around
>the base of the tree (which the ivy then invaded), followed by
>fruiting bodies (honey-coloured toadstools) in the autumn.
>
>Honey fungus killed the tree, not ivy.

Indeed the mushrooms/toadstools were/are almost certainly the result of
honey fungus. But was it not a 'chicken-and-egg' situation? As I
understand it, honey fungus often takes over dead roots, and is very
difficult to get rid of. The other ash (minus the ivy) never has shown
any signs of being affected. [But see below.]
>
>The fungus spreads through the soil, attacking and invading roots of
>shrubs and trees. Have you had any other plants nearby mysteriously
>die, for no obvious reason?

The following year, a couple of spindly cypress trees (maybe 10' tall)
immediately where the toadstools appeared (ie encompassed by the root
system of the dead ash) did die. I'm sure it was the honey fungus - but
they had always been weakly things because the ash tree and its mate
both shaded the area, and stole all the moisture. Other similar trees
(which line my side of the back garden fence) have always had a hard
time, and rarely put on much new growth (not like your average
cypress!).
>

--
Ian

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <1q5X84BI...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,

Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <ktcqlb5inhnscqr12...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
><m...@privacy.net> writes
>>

>>>>> The dead ash was cut down (I now recall it was 2003), and its stump was
>>>>> left around 6' high. It has shown no signs of sprouting. After a couple
>>>>> of years, where its roots extended into my garden, there was a
>>>>> considerable growth of large clumps of orange mushrooms. As I had
>>>>> various bushes nearby, I thought it would be wise to discourage it in
>>>>> future (Weedol worked well), and these days I only get the odd mushroom
>>>>> or two.
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying you used Weedol to control the mushrooms?
>>>>
>>>Yes. I gave them a quick spray, and they soon started to shrivel-up.
>>>Next day, they were totally wrecked. The following year, there were far
>>>fewer - and rarely any since then.
>>>
>>>Or am I doing the wrong thing by inhibiting the natural decomposition of
>>>the ash root system - which, of course, is considerable?

There are several Weedols, but I have no idea how they would behave
on fungi. It is relatively unlikely that spraying the fruiting bodies
had much effect on the mycelium, so the reduction is probably just
the natural life cycle of the fungus.

>>Sounds to me like your ash tree was killed by Armillaria (Honey
>>fungus), which can cause sudden failure, lesions in the bark around
>>the base of the tree (which the ivy then invaded), followed by
>>fruiting bodies (honey-coloured toadstools) in the autumn.
>>
>>Honey fungus killed the tree, not ivy.
>
>Indeed the mushrooms/toadstools were/are almost certainly the result of
>honey fungus. But was it not a 'chicken-and-egg' situation? As I
>understand it, honey fungus often takes over dead roots, and is very
>difficult to get rid of. The other ash (minus the ivy) never has shown
>any signs of being affected. [But see below.]

As he said. There are many strains of it, some of which are almost
entirely saprophytic and others of which are aggressively pathogenic.
It is extremely common for the latter to kill the tree before the
first fruiting bodies appear - often a few years before.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <njjmst$1cc$1...@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren
<n...@wheeler.UUCP> writes


>

>There are several Weedols, but I have no idea how they would behave
>on fungi.

I forgot to mention that WD40 also works well!
>
>
>
>

--
Ian