Wipac Series "A" versus Lucas SR magnetos
Christopher Tidy
I have been overhauling a Wipac Series "A" magneto. It has been
frustrating. First the coil was dead. Then the impulse coupling was
slipping. So I collected together several magnetos, took them all apart,
carefully noting how they fitted together, and selected the best parts.
Then I found that although these magnetos look standard, there are small
variations. Different rotors. Different shaft lengths. Different numbers
of flats on the shaft. Different impulse coupling designs (and I don't
just mean the drive connection). Different flange screws. So far I've
tried to assemble three combinations of parts, and none quite fit
together right.
There are a couple more combinations of parts I haven't tried, so I may
still find a solution. But I've been increasingly tempted to fit a Lucas
SR1 magneto instead. I'm weary of assembling different combinations of
parts, and I want a reliable magneto.
It's been a while since I looked at an SR1, and I can see strengths and
weaknesses in the Series "A" design. How does the Lucas SR1 compare to
the Wipac Series "A"? Which do people think is best magneto, in terms of
reliability, durability, intensity of spark, etc.?
I know this is likely to be a controversial topic. I've heard plenty of
conflicting opinions. So far I haven't found a consensus.
Best wishes,
Chris
Charles Hamilton
need to fit the correct magneto,as specified by the engine builder. Surely,
the design guys fitted what they thought was the best one for their
particular engine, personally, I've always trusted their judgement. No doubt
I will be "corrected" on that, but I won't be swayed.
"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:4A89CFAF...@cantabgold.net...
Jules
> Hi folks,
>
> I have been overhauling a Wipac Series "A" magneto. It has been
> frustrating. First the coil was dead. Then the impulse coupling was
> slipping. So I collected together several magnetos, took them all apart,
> carefully noting how they fitted together, and selected the best parts.
Hmm, that left me wondering how many 'good' parts of things are kicking
around on shelves around the world, left over from where people have
stripped several of something down to make one good unit :-)
Maybe there's a few hundred of [pick your favourite contraption] still
lurking in tiny dismantled-but-serviceable fragments which will probably
never be reunited into a whole again... (this always used to bug me with
classic cars, but I just realised it must be equally true for many a
vintage thing...)
> I know this is likely to be a controversial topic. I've heard plenty of
> conflicting opinions. So far I haven't found a consensus.
I usually have no problem in making something non-original - so long as
a) I keep the original parts that have been removed and keep them with the
item, b) the correct setup is well documented, and c) I modify things such
that everything can be restored back to original condition with the
minimum of effort if I (or any future owner) so choses.
cheers
Jules
kimsiddorn
anyone who will say a good word for Mr Hill & his (reputed) HT mags - and
that was Crossleys who were one of the most experienced & best !
Although a volume manufacturer like Listers would decide upon a magneto &
buy in thousands of one type, smaller manufacturers would often *specify*
one type, but if they couldn't get them when they needed them, they'd fit
what they could get hold of. One of my WW1 ABC engines has the specified
Dixie magneto, probably as they were short stumpy things & fitted on top of
the crankcase neatly. However, another has a German-made Eismann mag, a much
bigger thing altogether that perches uneasily like a pigeon on a sparrow
feeder.
BTW, the Dixie has a really crap Mazac body & they just go to dust if left
out. Thank God this one is oily!
Post war Triumph twins had a Lucas magneto - except for those that were
fitted with a B.T-H !
Regards,
Kim Siddorn
"Charles Hamilton" <dyol...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:beedna1Sk6SKnBfX...@bt.com...
Nick H
I've always found the Wico A pretty good and have built up several from
parts to suit particular engines. But you are right, there are a LOT of
possible combinations - I believe there is an applications book which
details the recipe for each specification number - and remember these
mags were not just OE fits, many were supplied to replace other (less
reliable?) mags - but I just used trial and error.
Not much experience of Lucas SR - only one I had was on a lister D which
had sat outside for at least 20 years. Engine was siezed and pretty much
knackered, but the mag still sparked well!
NHH
Nick H
> What are You fitting it to?? If You are into authenticity then surely
> You need to fit the correct magneto,as specified by the engine builder.
> Surely, the design guys fitted what they thought was the best one for
> their particular engine, personally, I've always trusted their
> judgement. No doubt I will be "corrected" on that, but I won't be swayed.
The Wico A was frequently supplied as an aftermarket replacement for
other mags. So I think it could be regarded as acceptable in many cases
even if it isn't what the engine left the factory with.
Swaying yet Charles?
NHH
Peter A Forbes
Wipac have a comprehensive listing of the mechanical parts for the Wipac A
series, which is a reflection of their efforts to get into the magneto market.
Their master magneto manual is huge.
Lucas on the other hand wanted out, as they never made any money of the
industrial magneto side, only the more expensive multi-cylinder units.
I have just picked up a Lucas equipment catalogue from the early 1960's for
industrial, agricultural and marine engines etc., I'll get it onto the website
as soon as possible.
Peter
--
Peter A Forbes
Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK
peter...@prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.eu
Christopher Tidy
> around on shelves around the world, left over from where people have
> stripped several of something down to make one good unit :-)
>
> Maybe there's a few hundred of [pick your favourite contraption] still
> lurking in tiny dismantled-but-serviceable fragments which will probably
> never be reunited into a whole again... (this always used to bug me with
> classic cars, but I just realised it must be equally true for many a
> vintage thing...)
I'll be reassembling all the magnetos, not just the one that I'm going
to fit. Otherwise, as you say, they won't be much good to anyone else.
Or to me in a few years, as I probably won't be able to remember how
they fit together. In fact, I already did reassemble the whole lot,
before I discovered that the impulse coupling wasn't working. So now
I've got to do it all again. I reassembled them too soon. If I'd left it
longer I'd probably have been less frustrated.
>>I know this is likely to be a controversial topic. I've heard plenty of
>>conflicting opinions. So far I haven't found a consensus.
>
>
> I usually have no problem in making something non-original - so long as
> a) I keep the original parts that have been removed and keep them with the
> item, b) the correct setup is well documented, and c) I modify things such
> that everything can be restored back to original condition with the
> minimum of effort if I (or any future owner) so choses.
If I swap the magneto, I'll keep the original. I've already done the
same with the rusty exhaust, as I couldn't find a replacement and
getting it repaired was too costly.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> What are You fitting it to?? If You are into authenticity then surely
> You need to fit the correct magneto,as specified by the engine builder.
> Surely, the design guys fitted what they thought was the best one for
> their particular engine, personally, I've always trusted their
> judgement. No doubt I will be "corrected" on that, but I won't be swayed.
It's going on my 1947 Dennis Bros. lawnmower. It's a Dennis engine, but
designed by Blackburne. Over the years, Dennis fitted several different
magnetos to these machines. The Wico/Wipac Series "A" and the Lucas SR1
were the most common (there were also BTH and Wipac CJ-1 magnetos fitted
to early and late models respectively, but these are uncommon). So
although the Lucas magneto wasn't fitted to this particular machine when
new, it wouldn't be a major transgression.
My recollection of the SR1 is a bit vague, but I think that the Series
"A" has the better lubrication system and probably a more tightly sealed
case, while the SR1 has a stronger chassis. The chassis strength could
be an advantage, as the foot-mounted Series "A" magneto I removed had
some fatigue cracks inside. But if my ideas are wrong, do let me know.
Having got frustrated with the Series "A", I'm just trying to figure out
if the SR1 would be a more trouble-free magneto.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
One chap told me that Wico/Wipac magnetos were never used on aircraft,
whereas Lucas magnetos were. He asserted that reliability was the reason
for this. Not sure if it's true. Just one of the strong opinions I've heard.
Chris
Nick H
> Nick H wrote:
>> The Wico A was frequently supplied as an aftermarket replacement for
>> other mags. So I think it could be regarded as acceptable in many
>> cases even if it isn't what the engine left the factory with.
>
> One chap told me that Wico/Wipac magnetos were never used on aircraft,
> whereas Lucas magnetos were. He asserted that reliability was the reason
> for this. Not sure if it's true. Just one of the strong opinions I've
> heard.
>
> Chris
>
No, can't say I've ever heard of a Wipac aircraft mag whereas Lucas was
certainly in that market. Mind You Lucas was pretty adept at matching
the quality of its products to the customer's required 'price point'
hence the Prince of darkness epithet earned as a result of the equipment
supplied to the penny pinching motor industry. Aviation kit is likely to
have been a whole different story.
NHH
Jules
> Aviation kit is likely to have been a whole different story.
One would certainly hope so :-)
(Although TBH I've never had any particular issue with Lucas car electrics
- they were crap, but only as crap as electrics from other vendors; as you
mention, it was likely an industry failing* rather than any particular
issue with Lucas themselves)
* don't get me started on deteriorating Mazak castings, either! :-)
cheers
Jules
Jules
>> Hmm, that left me wondering how many 'good' parts of things are kicking
>> around on shelves around the world, left over from where people have
>> stripped several of something down to make one good unit :-)
>>
>> Maybe there's a few hundred of [pick your favourite contraption] still
>> lurking in tiny dismantled-but-serviceable fragments which will probably
>> never be reunited into a whole again... (this always used to bug me with
>> classic cars, but I just realised it must be equally true for many a
>> vintage thing...)
>
> I'll be reassembling all the magnetos, not just the one that I'm going
> to fit. Otherwise, as you say, they won't be much good to anyone else.
Good to hear! I just think there must be a vast amount of stuff lurking
here and there which has the potential to be put back into service - but
somehow finding it before it does decay into junk is a problem that I'm
not sure anyone's managed to crack (particularly as half the time the
actual owners forget what they have!)
> If I swap the magneto, I'll keep the original. I've already done the
> same with the rusty exhaust, as I couldn't find a replacement and
> getting it repaired was too costly.
Gets my vote, anyway :-)
I'd always rather see something back in service even if it wasn't quite
original - I just have issues when people do this in such a way that
someone else would have a hard time coming along and backing out of the
changes if they wanted to!
cheers
Jules
Christopher Tidy
> No, can't say I've ever heard of a Wipac aircraft mag whereas Lucas was
> certainly in that market. Mind You Lucas was pretty adept at matching
> the quality of its products to the customer's required 'price point'
> hence the Prince of darkness epithet earned as a result of the equipment
> supplied to the penny pinching motor industry. Aviation kit is likely to
> have been a whole different story.
It doesn't look like there's going to be a consensus in this group
either, then. I was trying to remember if the Lucas was closer to being
a hand built magneto than the Wipac, with things like removable rather
than cast-in laminations, but I don't recall. Not that this would
necessarily affect reliability, which is what I'm mainly after.
Chris
NHH
> It doesn't look like there's going to be a consensus in this group
> either, then. I was trying to remember if the Lucas was closer to being
> a hand built magneto than the Wipac, with things like removable rather
> than cast-in laminations, but I don't recall. Not that this would
> necessarily affect reliability, which is what I'm mainly after.
>
> Ch respectris
>
No, I certainly wouldn't expect one to come out as a firm favorite on
that basis, Wico A and Lucas SR are both good products of comparable
efficiency and reliability when in good condition. As Peter Forbes has
intimated, Wico was perhaps somewhat more committed to the industrial
engine market than Lucas which had many more irons in the fire and I
certainly have no complaints about the Wico product.
NHH
Peter A Forbes
>No, I certainly wouldn't expect one to come out as a firm favorite on
>that basis, Wico A and Lucas SR are both good products of comparable
>efficiency and reliability when in good condition. As Peter Forbes has
>intimated, Wico was perhaps somewhat more committed to the industrial
>engine market than Lucas which had many more irons in the fire and I
>certainly have no complaints about the Wico product.
>
>NHH
Wipac (Wico-Pacey) was set up initially to capitalise on the UK and European
markets for magnetos, Wico had a huge market in the USA, but had at least four
or five other makers (Fairbanks-Morse, American Bosch, Splitdorf, IHC, Eisemann
and more) in the same market, whereas the UK and Europe were seen as a market
worth getting to to.
Of the two makers discussed, Wipac probably went at it a lot better than Lucas,
and with Wico's design experience behind them they were able to penetrate a lot
of engine makers such as Petters who were previously with BT-H or ML etc.
Eventually the whole discrete magneto market collapsed, with just flywheel mag's
being left, and the Japanese/Chinese killed off what was left.
Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: die...@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk
Christopher Tidy
> Wipac (Wico-Pacey) was set up initially to capitalise on the UK and European
> markets for magnetos, Wico had a huge market in the USA, but had at least four
> or five other makers (Fairbanks-Morse, American Bosch, Splitdorf, IHC, Eisemann
> and more) in the same market, whereas the UK and Europe were seen as a market
> worth getting to to.
>
> Of the two makers discussed, Wipac probably went at it a lot better than Lucas,
> and with Wico's design experience behind them they were able to penetrate a lot
> of engine makers such as Petters who were previously with BT-H or ML etc.
Maybe I'm just fuming because I got a bad one? :-)
With my Wipac needing so much work, when a couple of people said they
preferred the Lucas SR, I wondered if it was an obvious favourite that
I'd missed.
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> Although a volume manufacturer like Listers would decide upon a magneto
> & buy in thousands of one type, smaller manufacturers would often
> *specify* one type, but if they couldn't get them when they needed them,
> they'd fit what they could get hold of.
Having looked through the documentation, I suspect you're right. Neither
of the spare parts lists mention the Lucas magneto. The earlier parts
list (the one correct for my machine) specifies Wico type A603BZ. The
later list specifies Wipac type CJ1374, which unusually is a
foot-mounted type CJ magneto.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> I have just picked up a Lucas equipment catalogue from the early 1960's for
> industrial, agricultural and marine engines etc., I'll get it onto the website
> as soon as possible.
I'd be interested to see that when you get the chance.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
the magneto repairer that someone recommended a while back).
He has the two components I need to repair the impulse coupling at a
reasonable price, so I've sent him a cheque. I should have the parts
soon, so the problem is solved: I'm keeping the Wipac Series "A".
He seemed knowledgeable and happy to discuss magnetos, so I asked him
how he thought the Wipac Series "A" compared to the Lucas SR1. He said
they were equally reliable, and that one was not distinctly better than
the other. However, he did say that the Series "A" has the better
lubrication system, but the Lucas SR1 the better spark at cranking speed
if an impulse coupling is not fitted. Lastly, he stressed that all
magnetos need maintenance and adjustment, but often don't get it.
An interesting conversation, and probably the closest we'll get to a
definitive answer to my question.
Best wishes,
Chris
Charles Hamilton
knowledgeable on magnetos and does an excellent job repairing them too. As I
said previously, he repaired a mag for me off my Lister GK2 at a fraction of
the cost of the "other" guy!!!! And he only does it for a hobby!! IIRC he
lectures at the OU.news:4A8F5347...@cantabgold.net...
NHH
when I took the miniature Bosch mag from my Marconi-Stanley to him for a
rebuild and did a lovely job at a very sensible price. His main problem
is that, although he doesn't really advertise his services, he is
something of a victim of his own success so be prepared to wait.
NHH
Christopher Tidy
on the direction of rotation. More disassembly will be required. Grrr...
Chris
Christopher Tidy
it'll last at least ten years before I need to do it again.
The other magnetos I used for spares are also reassembled and labelled.
Best wishes,
Chris
Nick H
Well done Chris - now wasn't that worth it as a) you now have a working
mag and b) you know your way round the Wico 'A' series for next time ;-)
NHH
Christopher Tidy
Absolutely. And there's a lot more to learn about these magnetos than
you might expect. The one I've just overhauled also works a lot better
than other magnetos I've got, even on engines that run. It gives a spark
about 1/4" long in the open air. I'm thinking I may overhaul my other
Wico magnetos in the future to see if I can improve their performance
and make the engines start more easily.
Best wishes,
Chris
NHH
Now, if only someone could tell me if there is a special body for
horizontal mounting (I have my doubts about whether the standard lube
arrangement will work) then I would be happy too!
NHH
Peter A Forbes
There are
32 main housings
91 end plate units
31 rotor types
21 base adaptor plates
and more, all listed in the Wipac No1 Master Manual.
Given a Wipac number, I can check the build parts from the book.
nickh
>> Now, if only someone could tell me if there is a special body for
>> horizontal mounting (I have my doubts about whether the standard lube
>> arrangement will work) then I would be happy too!
>> NHH
PA> There are
PA> 32 main housings
PA> 91 end plate units
PA> 31 rotor types
PA> 21 base adaptor plates
PA> and more, all listed in the Wipac No1 Master Manual.
PA> Given a Wipac number, I can check the build parts from the book.
PA> Peter
You could maybe look at an appropriate Bamford or Fowler application and
see if the little spring loaded scraper is in a different orientation.
NHH
nickh=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 2.2.0.8
Nick H
Perhaps I should explain; I built up a Wico A for a non-standard
application in which it would be mounted horizontally and then started
to worry that the lube system wouldn't work properly. However I noticed
that these mags were used in that orientation in some other applications
such as certain Bamfords, Fowlers and ISTR the little Alco
featherweight. I reasoned therefore that the lube system must be ok
unless these applications used a special body - something I have so far
been unable to find out.
NHH
Peter A Forbes
>Perhaps I should explain; I built up a Wico A for a non-standard
>application in which it would be mounted horizontally and then started
>to worry that the lube system wouldn't work properly. However I noticed
>that these mags were used in that orientation in some other applications
>such as certain Bamfords, Fowlers and ISTR the little Alco
>featherweight. I reasoned therefore that the lube system must be ok
>unless these applications used a special body - something I have so far
>been unable to find out.
>
>NHH
OK, I'll look into it.
Peter A Forbes
>Perhaps I should explain; I built up a Wico A for a non-standard
>application in which it would be mounted horizontally and then started
>to worry that the lube system wouldn't work properly. However I noticed
>that these mags were used in that orientation in some other applications
>such as certain Bamfords, Fowlers and ISTR the little Alco
>featherweight. I reasoned therefore that the lube system must be ok
>unless these applications used a special body - something I have so far
>been unable to find out.
>
>NHH
They did have a choice of the oiler on one, both or none (seems odd, but there
were some ringle-turn types for boilers etc.
More to come.