Change in speed limit
Graham Harrison
60 -single track, 70 dual carriageway) you're driving along a dual
carriageway, doing 70 and approaching the point where it narrows to an
"ordinary" two track road where the 60 limit applies. In the example that
set me thinking there is hatching on the dual carriageway to reduce the
number of lanes from 2 to one before the dual carriageway ends. Then the
crash barrier ends followed by a keep left sign (for traffic going in the
opposite direction) and then the grass, on which the crash barrier and keep
left sign sits, ends. Then the hatching continues for a bit further
keeping the two traffic streams apart as the road narrows until, eventually,
you are left with one lane of traffic each way with a single dashed line
between them.
At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to 60?
And, no, I haven't been flashed or stopped by the police or held up by
another vehicle or harrassed by another vehicle. I just wondered!
Brimstone
An interesting question. I would hazard a guess that the change occurs at
the end of the central strip.
Ian Dalziel
<edward.obvio...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote:
>the dual carriageway ends. Then the
>crash barrier ends
>At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to 60?
Where the dual carriageway ends, for fuck's sake. Where else?
--
Ian D
Brimstone
What defines the end of the dual carriageway?
Ian Dalziel
The point at which there are no longer two carriageways!
Which is what you said.
--
Ian D
Adrian
sounding much like they were saying:
>>> At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to
>>> 60?
>> Where the dual carriageway ends, for fuck's sake. Where else?
> What defines the end of the dual carriageway?
Where it ceases to be two _carriageways_ and becomes one carriageway,
obviously.
You _do_ know what a carriageway is, right?
Nick Finnigan
>
> At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to 60?
Where there is no longer a central reservation.
'Hatching' does not make a reservation.
Brimstone
> Brimstone ("Brimstone" <brimston...@yahoo.co.uk>) gurgled
> happily, sounding much like they were saying:
>
>>>> At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70
>>>> to 60?
>
>>> Where the dual carriageway ends, for fuck's sake. Where else?
>
>> What defines the end of the dual carriageway?
>
> Where it ceases to be two _carriageways_ and becomes one carriageway,
> obviously.
Obvious to most people perhaps, but is that the legal definition?
> You _do_ know what a carriageway is, right?
What I know, or don't, is beside the point if the legal definition is
different.
Conor
Where the dashed line ends. At that point it's then a single lane.
--
Conor
I'm not prejudice, I hate everyone equally.
Ian Dalziel
Oh, does a cross-hatched area raise the limit to 70mph on a single
carriageway, then?
--
Ian D
Raymond Keattch
@btinternet.obvious.com says...
For me it would be when conditions require a change in speed.
--
MrBitsy
Brimstone
"Raymond Keattch" <ray.k...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2205beddb...@news.ntlworld.com...
So put that into the specific situation the OP is talking about Ray. Or, are
you suggesting that if the D/C was clear and conditions permitted (say) 90
mph that you'd carry on doing that on the S/C?
Clive George
news:MPG.2205beddb...@news.ntlworld.com...
He's not asking about what speed to do, he's asking about what the speed
limit is. Which seems an entirely reasonable question, so why are you
talking complete bollocks again? Or do you genuinely believe it is you who
decides what the legal speed limit is?
clive
David Taylor
>
> At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to 60?
>
> And, no, I haven't been flashed or stopped by the police or held up by
> another vehicle or harrassed by another vehicle. I just wondered!
I've wondered this before when driving up the A1 (which frequently
jumps between SC/DC, and is rather speed camera infested at points too.
I don't have any citations of relevant laws, but my best guess agrees
with everyone else's opinion:
- The speed limit changes when the road becomes single carriageway
- The road becomes single carriageway when the central reservation ends.
- The central reservation ends where the road becomes an undivided
strip of tarmac.
I never did figure out precisely what makes a road dual carriage way
given the possible combinations of:
- Crash barrier (certain this is not necessary)
- Raised kerb between the two carriageways
- Grass/dirt between the two carriageways
- Paint between the two sides of the road
I also have a very, very vague memory that there is a section of Axxx(M)
road which is legally a motorway, but is single carriageway with only
paint separating the two streams of opposing traffic.
--
David Taylor
JNugent
> Conor <conor_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Brimstone wrote:
>>>Ian Dalziel wrote:
>>>>"Graham Harrison" <edward.obvio...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote:
>>>>>the dual carriageway ends. Then the crash barrier ends
>>>>>At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to
>>>>>60?
>>>>Where the dual carriageway ends, for fuck's sake. Where else?
>>>What defines the end of the dual carriageway?
>>Where the dashed line ends. At that point it's then a single lane.
> Oh, does a cross-hatched area raise the limit to 70mph on a single
> carriageway, then?
That's a moot point.
Certainly, the 70 d/c NSL doesn't appear to reduce to 60 on those bits
of a dual carriageway where the central reservation is broken by a
crossing point, so it can't be quite as black and white as all that.
JNugent
A38(M) Aston Expressway linking the M6 Gravelly Hill interchange with
the former Birmingham Inner Ring Road (now more like the Birmingham
Inner Horseshoe Road).
And the former A6144(M) off the M63 near Sale/Urmston (now downgraded).
The A38(M) still has its motorway status, but nothing turns on the
presence or lack of a centre reservation since it has always been
subject to a limit lower than the national motorway limit.
Ian Dalziel
Motorway limit doesn't depend on it being a dual carriageway anyway.
--
Ian D
TripleS
No doubt he will answer for himself, but I suspect he very well might.
Ray seems to be getting as bad as me for that sort of thing.
Anyhow, FWIW I expect the DC ends where the central divider ends, which
I think means a physical separator, such as a strip of grass, maybe even
without kerbs, but not merely paint on the road.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Nick Finnigan
>
> Certainly, the 70 d/c NSL doesn't appear to reduce to 60 on those bits
> of a dual carriageway where the central reservation is broken by a
> crossing point, so it can't be quite as black and white as all that.
Technically the limit would be 60mph where there is a permanent
crossing point, but it is not usually enforceable (because of the need
to measure time taken to travel a worthwhile distance).
Nick Finnigan
>
> I don't have any citations of relevant laws, but my best guess agrees
> with everyone else's opinion:
TSRGD 2002 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
> - The speed limit changes when the road becomes single carriageway
>
> - The road becomes single carriageway when the central reservation ends.
>
> - The central reservation ends where the road becomes an undivided
> strip of tarmac.
>
> I never did figure out precisely what makes a road dual carriage way
> given the possible combinations of:
>
> - Crash barrier (certain this is not necessary)
>
> - Raised kerb between the two carriageways
>
> - Grass/dirt between the two carriageways
>
=central reservation" means -
=
=(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
=carriageways; or
=
=(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway
=of a road,
=
=
=which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the
=carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from
=the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether
=at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the
=other direction;
so not
> - Paint between the two sides of the road
>
> I also have a very, very vague memory that there is a section of Axxx(M)
> road which is legally a motorway, but is single carriageway with only
> paint separating the two streams of opposing traffic.
the paint does not separate opposing streams - overtaking is allowed.
Nick Finnigan
>
> I don't have any citations of relevant laws, but my best guess agrees
> with everyone else's opinion:
TSRGD 2002 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
> - The speed limit changes when the road becomes single carriageway
>
> - The road becomes single carriageway when the central reservation ends.
>
> - The central reservation ends where the road becomes an undivided
> strip of tarmac.
>
> I never did figure out precisely what makes a road dual carriage way
> given the possible combinations of:
>
> - Crash barrier (certain this is not necessary)
>
> - Raised kerb between the two carriageways
>
> - Grass/dirt between the two carriageways
>
...
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway
of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the
carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from
the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether
at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the
other direction;
... so not ...
> - Paint between the two sides of the road
>
> I also have a very, very vague memory that there is a section of Axxx(M)
> road which is legally a motorway, but is single carriageway with only
> paint separating the two streams of opposing traffic.
the paint does not separate opposing streams - overtaking is allowed.
JNugent
> =central reservation" means -
> =(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
> =carriageways; or
> =(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway
> =of a road,
> =which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the
> =carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from
> =the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether
> =at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the
> =other direction;
> so not
>> - Paint between the two sides of the road
The paint itself does not constitute a centre reservation (any more
than grass does) - but what about the land on which the paint is...
er... painted?
Ian Dalziel
If it's black tarry land, it doesn't count.
--
Ian D
TripleS
Are you sure about the grass? I thought a grassed area down the middle,
with or without kerbs, was sufficient to qualify the road as a dual
carriageway.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Nick Finnigan
> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
>> =central reservation" means -
>
>
>> =(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
>> =carriageways; or
>
>
>> =(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the
>> carriageway =of a road,
>
>
>> =which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of
>> direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to
>> be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic
>> moving in the other direction;
>
>
>> so not
>
>
>>> - Paint between the two sides of the road
>
>
> The paint itself does not constitute a centre reservation (any more than
> grass does) - but what about the land on which the paint is... er...
> painted?
Is it land which separates carriageway(s) (e.g. grass) or is it land
which forms a carriageway (e.g. concrete, tarmac)?
Raymond Keattch
x.fsnet.co.uk says...
The question was where does the speed limit change. I gave an answer
where my speed would change. In any case, I was just being flippant.
I really do not think it matters where one changes speed. Obviously it
is 70mph on the DC and 60mph on the SC - worring EXACTLY where the limit
changes is rather daft. It is rather like the question we had recently
about when to put a new tax disc on!
--
MrBitsy
David Taylor
>
> I really do not think it matters where one changes speed. Obviously it
> is 70mph on the DC and 60mph on the SC - worring EXACTLY where the limit
> changes is rather daft. It is rather like the question we had recently
> about when to put a new tax disc on!
Given the current rather daft obsession with speed enforcement, it
may be rather appropriate...
--
David Taylor
JNugent
>>> =central reservation" means -
>>> so not
I'm not saying that I have some sort of definitive answer to this, but
the issue isn't clear-cut. Grass is not land. There is land underneath
tarmac just there is land under grass. And in law, "any land" would
normally be taken to mean "any sort of land".
What is a "permanent work"? I'd have thought that a hatched-off area
would be counted as being as permanent (at least in intent) as
anything else on a highway. Even motorways and high-speed expressways
have gaps in the centre reservation where tarmac joins the two
carriageways. They tend to be fenced off nowadays, but they weren't
always. Did that reduce the limit (once there was a difference in NSL
between a d/c and a s/c)?
Come to that, what is a "traffic island"?
Nick Finnigan
> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
>> JNugent wrote:
>>
>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
>
>>>> =central reservation" means -
>
>
>>>> =(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two
>>>> =carriageways; or
>
>
>>>> =(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the
>>>> carriageway =of a road,
>
>
>>>> =which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of
>>>> the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one
>>>> direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is
>>>> to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by
>>>> traffic moving in the other direction;
>
>
>>>> so not
>
>
>>>>> - Paint between the two sides of the road
>
>
>>> The paint itself does not constitute a centre reservation (any more
>>> than grass does) - but what about the land on which the paint is...
>>> er... painted?
>
>
>> Is it land which separates carriageway(s) (e.g. grass) or is it land
>> which forms a carriageway (e.g. concrete, tarmac)?
>
>
> I'm not saying that I have some sort of definitive answer to this, but
I've just given you one, and explained it.
> the issue isn't clear-cut. Grass is not land. There is land underneath
> tarmac just there is land under grass. And in law, "any land" would
> normally be taken to mean "any sort of land".
Correct. Any sort of land, which separates carriageways, and is not
part of a carriageway, is a central reservation.
> What is a "permanent work"?
Something solid enough to deter most cars from driving on it.
I'd have thought that a hatched-off area
> would be counted as being as permanent (at least in intent) as anything
> else on a highway. Even motorways and high-speed expressways have gaps
> in the centre reservation where tarmac joins the two carriageways. They
> tend to be fenced off nowadays, but they weren't always. Did that reduce
> the limit (once there was a difference in NSL between a d/c and a s/c)?
There still is a difference in NSL between a d/c and a s/c, except on
motorways. Can you find a non-fenced off gap in a DC after 2002?
> Come to that, what is a "traffic island"?
A small permanent work in the centre of a carriageway.
Unless you live in the midlands, apparently.
Mark Hewitt
"Graham Harrison" <edward.obvio...@btinternet.obvious.com> wrote in
message news:Mtidnb_zDZg...@bt.com...
> On a road where the limit is the National Speed Limit (so, in a car,
> 60 -single track, 70 dual carriageway) you're driving along a dual
> carriageway, doing 70 and approaching the point where it narrows to an
> "ordinary" two track road where the 60 limit applies. In the example
> that set me thinking there is hatching on the dual carriageway to reduce
> the number of lanes from 2 to one before the dual carriageway ends. Then
> the crash barrier ends followed by a keep left sign (for traffic going in
> the opposite direction) and then the grass, on which the crash barrier and
> keep left sign sits, ends. Then the hatching continues for a bit further
> keeping the two traffic streams apart as the road narrows until,
> eventually, you are left with one lane of traffic each way with a single
> dashed line between them.
>
> At what specific point, in all that, does the limit change from 70 to 60?
>
> And, no, I haven't been flashed or stopped by the police or held up by
> another vehicle or harrassed by another vehicle. I just wondered!
A dual carraigeway is defined as there being a physical seperation between
each side of the road, as soon as there is only paint, then it's SC.
Exceptions are made for 'islands', you can't do 70mph just because there is
a 100m long island.