Whats better in snow - FWD or RWD?
bolta...@boltar.world
everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I recently
switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The nose
went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
option for most of us).
B2003
Adrian
saying:
> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
> recently switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for
> years and in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more
> controllable.
FWD, any time.
> The nose went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random
> direction as soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to
> happen with FWD.
And what did the rear do?
Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
Douglas Payne
The width, tread pattern and compound of the tyres and the ground
clearance of a vehicle make a much bigger difference than which end is
driven to the performance in snow.
Crap handling FWD, RWD and 4WD cars do exist. In the snow the
characteristics seem to be exacerbated at much lower speeds.
--
Douglas
bolta...@boltar.world
Not much actually. It seemd to stay put most of the time and when it did
stray just lifting off the throttle stopped it whereas in the FWD drive cars
I've driven once you lost grip at the front they seemed to carry on sliding
regardless of throttle position.
>Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at some
point unless you have winter tyres.
B2003
Adrian
saying:
>>Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
> some point unless you have winter tyres.
I do, thanks.
Damn sight cheaper than re-engineering the car to drive different set of
wheels. Or, even, changing car.
bolta...@boltar.world
Depends where you live and how much you drive. Its not just tyres , you need
the extra set of wheels to go with them unless you want to take the car down
to the tyre fitters each time you change them. And another 4 wheels isn't
cheap on any car. Hardly worth it for the few days of snow we generally
get a year in most parts of the country.
B2003
Adrian
saying:
>>> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
>>> some point unless you have winter tyres.
>>I do, thanks.
>>
>>Damn sight cheaper than re-engineering the car to drive different set of
>>wheels. Or, even, changing car.
> Depends where you live
Chilterns.
> and how much you drive.
Normal commuting.
> Its not just tyres , you need the extra set of wheels to go with them
They cost me £40.
> And another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car.
Bollocks. For almost _anything_, you can buy a set of standard-fit steels
(or even alloys) dirt cheap from a scrappy or fleaBay.
> Hardly worth it for the few days of snow we generally get a year in
> most parts of the country.
Winter tyres don't just have a benefit on snow. They have a big benefit
over normal UK summer tyres on cold (below about 5deg), dry tarmac, too.
As I write this, at 10.40am, the weather widgets on my desktop inform me
that it's -3 at Heathrow, -4 at Luton airport, and -6 at RAF Benson in
Oxfordshire.
Conor
<bolta...@boltar.world> wrote in message
news:hhsfoh$tkb$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 4 Jan 2010 10:05:50 GMT
> Not much actually. It seemd to stay put most of the time and when it
> did
> stray just lifting off the throttle stopped it whereas in the FWD
> drive cars
> I've driven once you lost grip at the front they seemed to carry on
> sliding
> regardless of throttle position.
>
Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
> some
> point unless you have winter tyres.
>
Not really.
--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I'm not prejudiced. I hate everybody equally.
Conor
<bolta...@boltar.world> wrote in message
news:hhsg9r$ubn$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 4 Jan 2010 10:29:01 GMT
> Depends where you live and how much you drive. Its not just tyres ,
> you need
> the extra set of wheels to go with them unless you want to take the
> car down
> to the tyre fitters each time you change them. And another 4 wheels
> isn't
> cheap on any car.
Usually a tenner a wheel for a steelie from the scrappies.
Douglas Payne
> On 4 Jan 2010 10:05:50 GMT
> Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
>> saying:
>>
>>> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>>> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
>>> recently switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for
>>> years and in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more
>>> controllable.
>> FWD, any time.
>>
>>> The nose went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random
>>> direction as soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to
>>> happen with FWD.
>> And what did the rear do?
>
> Not much actually. It seemd to stay put most of the time and when it did
> stray just lifting off the throttle stopped it whereas in the FWD drive cars
> I've driven once you lost grip at the front they seemed to carry on sliding
> regardless of throttle position.
The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same car
on the same tyres.
I'm a FWD advocate in slippery conditions. Generally the more
unsophisticated the better.
>> Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
>
> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at some
> point unless you have winter tyres.
Sounds like you do have a choice (c:
Winter tyres FTW!
--
Douglas
Douglas Payne
Hmm, you'd be a numpty if you just changed the tyres everytime it snowed.
I'd fit the winter tyres around November and take them off around March.
There's a choice of paying someone a few quid to change the tyres or
having a spare set of wheels from John McScrap. Both of which are much
cheaper than missing a day at work or crashing. Hell, a new steel wheel
cost me �25 from a dealer the last time I had to buy one.
I am also saved the stress of watching it snow at work and wondering if
I will make it home at all.
It just requires a little forward planning.
--
Douglas
Adrian
they were saying:
> The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same car
Yay! Triumph Dolomite!
Halmyre
> Douglas Payne <doug...@cheerful.com> gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying:
>
> > The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same car
>
> Yay! Triumph Dolomite!
Rover 75?
I suppose you could fit free-wheeling hubs to all four wheels on a
Land-Rover and try it with fronts and rears alternately locked out.
--
Halmyre
Simon Hewison
> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
> option for most of us).
That depends on the weight distribution. If you can get weight over the
driving wheels, they will have more surface area in contact with the
surface.
I have recently seen empty taxis (rear wheel drive) sliding around all
over the place, but full taxis of the same model on the same bit of road
have no problems. It depends far more on driving style though. Drive
like a maniac and you will slide.
With that in mind, on a front engined vehicle, front wheel drive would
normally be better in snow and ice. Fit winter tyres for extra grip. If
that's not good enough, fit snow chains (and take them off when you
don't need them).
If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, try putting something heavy in
the boot. Yes, your fuel efficiency WILL suffer.
As for four wheel drive, I'd challenge anyone advocating that to see
what sort of vehicles tend to be driven by the locals in (european)
places with heavy snowfall (ski resorts, etc). If it's too much for a
front wheel drive with winter tyres and chains, they use snowmobiles.
--
Simon Hewison
bolta...@boltar.world
Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car.
>
>Bollocks. For almost _anything_, you can buy a set of standard-fit steels
>(or even alloys) dirt cheap from a scrappy or fleaBay.
Well , if you want to chance it with some wheels of potentially dodgy
provenance thats up to you. I wouldn't. There were some BMW alloys doing
the rounds a while back with some serious metal fatique cracks in them.
B2003
bolta...@boltar.world
"Conor" <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
><bolta...@boltar.world> wrote in message
>news:hhsfoh$tkb$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> On 4 Jan 2010 10:05:50 GMT
>
>> Not much actually. It seemd to stay put most of the time and when it
>> did
>> stray just lifting off the throttle stopped it whereas in the FWD
>> drive cars
>> I've driven once you lost grip at the front they seemed to carry on
>> sliding
>> regardless of throttle position.
>>
>Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
Not much use in an auto.
>> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
>> some
>> point unless you have winter tyres.
>>
>Not really.
I defy you to drive a car in snow on summer tyres and never lose any grip.
B2003
Douglas Payne
Anyone here got one (of either kind) and willing to do a scienteriffic
experiment?
--
Douglas
Douglas Payne
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:39:56 -0000
> "Conor" <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>> <bolta...@boltar.world> wrote in message
>> news:hhsfoh$tkb$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> On 4 Jan 2010 10:05:50 GMT
>>> Not much actually. It seemd to stay put most of the time and when it
>>> did
>>> stray just lifting off the throttle stopped it whereas in the FWD
>>> drive cars
>>> I've driven once you lost grip at the front they seemed to carry on
>>> sliding
>>> regardless of throttle position.
>>>
>> Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
>
> Not much use in an auto.
Try pulling the handbrake a bit. If its a Citroen BX or some models of
Saab 900.
Failing that, learn to drive and fit winter tyres.
--
Douglas
Douglas Payne
> On 04/01/2010 10:03, bolta...@boltar.world wrote:
>> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an
>> expensive
>> option for most of us).
...
> As for four wheel drive, I'd challenge anyone advocating that to see
> what sort of vehicles tend to be driven by the locals in (european)
> places with heavy snowfall (ski resorts, etc). If it's too much for a
> front wheel drive with winter tyres and chains, they use snowmobiles.
Anyone at a Ski resort, or just back from one? What models of cars do
people who need to get about in Ski Resorts drive before they resort to
Snowmobiles? Will any FWD do, or are some better than others.
Are there many BMWs?
--
Douglas
Adrian
saying:
>>> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
>>> some point unless you have winter tyres.
>>Not really.
> I defy you to drive a car in snow on summer tyres and never lose any
> grip.
Well, if you do insist on using the wrong tool for the job...
Adrian
saying:
>>> And another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car.
>>Bollocks. For almost _anything_, you can buy a set of standard-fit
>>steels (or even alloys) dirt cheap from a scrappy or fleaBay.
> Well , if you want to chance it with some wheels of potentially dodgy
> provenance thats up to you. I wouldn't. There were some BMW alloys doing
> the rounds a while back with some serious metal fatique cracks in them.
Do you replace all the wheels on your cars with brand spankin' new
whenever you buy a used car or whenever somebody else has driven your car
without you being in it?
Adrian
like they were saying:
>> > The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same
>> > car
>> Yay! Triumph Dolomite!
> Rover 75?
Good point, although I rather suspect there's a slightly fundamental
associated change which could skew the results...
Denis McMahon
> bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
> saying:
>
>> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
>> recently switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for
>> years and in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more
>> controllable.
>
> FWD, any time.
Weight over driven wheels helps, however ...
>> The nose went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random
>> direction as soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to
>> happen with FWD.
>
> And what did the rear do?
>
> Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
this is the kicker.
Big gaps between vehicles, very gentle feet and light steering touches,
and allowing for the fact that stopping is best achieved by rolling to a
halt, rather than breaking.
If you have to go out in conditions where snow and / or ice affect
control, softly softly does it.
Rgds
Denis McMahon
bolta...@boltar.world
Car wheels for sale are either off a scrapped or nicked car which you won't
probably get to see the state of. If someone damages the wheels on your car
so badly they're buggered there will more than likely be other damage too.
And yes , when I buy a used car I check as much as possible. You'd be a fool
not to.
B2003
bolta...@boltar.world
Douglas Payne <dou...@cheerful.com> wrote:
>Try pulling the handbrake a bit. If its a Citroen BX or some models of
>Saab 900.
It isn't. And pulling the handbrake in snow is one of the dumbest things
you can do as combined with the lack of grip it can cause a full lockup
of the rear wheels.
>Failing that, learn to drive and fit winter tyres.
I can drive in snow fine thanks. I wasn't asking for advice , I was curious
as to which type of car people think is better.
B2003
Adrian
saying:
>>Try pulling the handbrake a bit. If its a Citroen BX or some models of
>>Saab 900.
> It isn't. And pulling the handbrake in snow is one of the dumbest things
> you can do as combined with the lack of grip it can cause a full lockup
> of the rear wheels.
Not in a car with the handbrake on the DRIVEN WHEELS, it can't.
Adrian
saying:
>>>>> And another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car.
>>>>Bollocks. For almost _anything_, you can buy a set of standard-fit
>>>>steels (or even alloys) dirt cheap from a scrappy or fleaBay.
>>> Well , if you want to chance it with some wheels of potentially dodgy
>>> provenance thats up to you. I wouldn't. There were some BMW alloys
>>> doing the rounds a while back with some serious metal fatique cracks
>>> in them.
>>Do you replace all the wheels on your cars with brand spankin' new
>>whenever you buy a used car or whenever somebody else has driven your
>>car without you being in it?
> Car wheels for sale are either off a scrapped or nicked car which you
> won't probably get to see the state of.
And?
> If someone damages the wheels on your car so badly they're buggered
> there will more than likely be other damage too.
Yet that doesn't apply to rims from a scrappy?
bolta...@boltar.world
Of course it bloody can on an auto. If the engine is idling the handbrake can
easily overpower the residual torque coming down the drivetrain which on a
slippery surface is pretty much all it'll have to deal with if the car is
already sliding.
B2003
bolta...@boltar.world
Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Car wheels for sale are either off a scrapped or nicked car which you
>> won't probably get to see the state of.
>
>And?
So they're not likely to be in the best of condition are they. Or would you
buy tyres from a scrapped car too?
>> If someone damages the wheels on your car so badly they're buggered
>> there will more than likely be other damage too.
>
>Yet that doesn't apply to rims from a scrappy?
Eh? Most scrapyards don't lead you over to peruse the scrapped cars and then
pick your wheels from one of them. They've already removed them so how will
you check the original car and tyres for further damage?
B2003
Ret.
Exactly my point. Whether or not winter tyres are worth the expense depends
very much on the type of motoring you do, and where you live. I am firmly of
the opinion that in my particular circumstances, winter tyres would be a
total waste of money.
Kev
Adrian
saying:
>>> Car wheels for sale are either off a scrapped or nicked car which you
>>> won't probably get to see the state of.
>>And?
> So they're not likely to be in the best of condition are they.
Why not?
> Or would you buy tyres from a scrapped car too?
Tyres are consumables. Wheels aren't.
>>> If someone damages the wheels on your car so badly they're buggered
>>> there will more than likely be other damage too.
>>Yet that doesn't apply to rims from a scrappy?
> Eh? Most scrapyards don't lead you over to peruse the scrapped cars and
> then pick your wheels from one of them. They've already removed them so
> how will you check the original car and tyres for further damage?
You can't tell from the wheels whether the wheels are likely to be
buggered? B'sides, buy a used car, and who's to say that the original
kerbed and scraped wheels weren't replaced with a set from the scrappy?
Ret.
I defy you to drive a car in snow on winter tyres and never lose any grip...
Kev
Ret.
> bolta...@boltar.world wrote:
>> On 4 Jan 2010 10:29:01 GMT
>> Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they
>>> were saying:
>>>
>>>>> Anyway, it's irrelevant if you don't lose grip.
>>>> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip
>>>> at some point unless you have winter tyres.
>>> I do, thanks.
>>>
>>> Damn sight cheaper than re-engineering the car to drive different
>>> set of wheels. Or, even, changing car.
>>
>> Depends where you live and how much you drive. Its not just tyres ,
>> you need the extra set of wheels to go with them unless you want to
>> take the car down to the tyre fitters each time you change them. And
>> another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car. Hardly worth it for the few
>> days of snow we generally get a year in most parts of the country.
>
> Hmm, you'd be a numpty if you just changed the tyres everytime it
> snowed.
> I'd fit the winter tyres around November and take them off around
> March.
And do you replace them every five years irrespective of wear as recommended
by the tyre manufacturers?
Kev
Adrian
>> I defy you to drive a car in snow on summer tyres and never lose any
>> grip.
> I defy you to drive a car in snow on winter tyres and never lose any
> grip...
I defy you to drive a car on warm dry tarmac on summer tyres and never
lose any grip...
Adrian
>> Hmm, you'd be a numpty if you just changed the tyres everytime it
>> snowed.
>> I'd fit the winter tyres around November and take them off around
>> March.
> And do you replace them every five years irrespective of wear as
> recommended by the tyre manufacturers?
Come back to me in three years...
Ret.
So you've only been using winter tyres for 2 years?
Kev
Ret.
Exactly!
Kev
Adrian
>>> And do you replace them every five years irrespective of wear as
>>> recommended by the tyre manufacturers?
>> Come back to me in three years...
> So you've only been using winter tyres for 2 years?
Yep.
But now I've realised just how big the improvement is, I'll be using 'em
every winter.
If you'd asked me before, I'd have been sceptical, just as you are. The
difference is, I was willing to actually give it a go, instead of just
giving it the old "But I've never tried it before, so it can't be any
good" line.
Adrian
> Exactly!
Umm, what?
Can you point me to where anybody has claimed it's not possible to lose
grip with winter tyres? No, thought not.
You're getting increasingly desperate in your attempts to cling on to
your blinkers in the face of evidence and direct personal experience.
Ret.
I'm not, for one moment, saying that winter tyres are 'no good'. What I am
saying is that for most 'urban motorists' (and certainly for a retired urban
motorist like me) they are an unnecessary expense. Even when we do have
heavy snow - it rarely lies on the roads for more than a day or so. I
genuinely have never been prevented from proceeding by snow in 47 years of
motoring and so, for me, buying winter tyres would be an unnecessary
expense.
Kev
Ret.
I have already stated elsewhere that I am more than happy to accept that for
some people, in some areas, and with certain driving requirements, winter
tyres may be a worthwhile purchase. I do believe, however, that for most
'urban' motorists they are an unnecessary expense which will rarely be
required.
Kev
Adrian
>> If you'd asked me before, I'd have been sceptical, just as you are. The
>> difference is, I was willing to actually give it a go, instead of just
>> giving it the old "But I've never tried it before, so it can't be any
>> good" line.
> I'm not, for one moment, saying that winter tyres are 'no good'. What I
> am saying is that for most 'urban motorists' (and certainly for a
> retired urban motorist like me) they are an unnecessary expense. Even
> when we do have heavy snow - it rarely lies on the roads for more than a
> day or so. I genuinely have never been prevented from proceeding by snow
> in 47 years of motoring and so, for me, buying winter tyres would be an
> unnecessary expense.
One of these days, you're going to accept that winter tyres are NOT only
of use in "heavy snow", but on cold tarmac in all weather conditions,
too. You've been told often enough, ffs...
Adrian
>> You're getting increasingly desperate in your attempts to cling on to
>> your blinkers in the face of evidence and direct personal experience.
> I have already stated elsewhere that I am more than happy to accept that
> for some people, in some areas, and with certain driving requirements,
> winter tyres may be a worthwhile purchase. I do believe, however, that
> for most 'urban' motorists they are an unnecessary expense which will
> rarely be required.
Yes, we know you do. But you believe that primarily because you distort
the situation by a mixture of exaggeration, goal-post-shifting and
ignoring of facts.
Over the course of the last few weeks, is there really not one single
time that you've either looked out the window and thought "Shit, I could
really do with going somewhere, but I don't like the look of that much"
or "Ohbloodyhell, that's a bit slipperier than I thought"?
bolta...@boltar.world
Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>One of these days, you're going to accept that winter tyres are NOT only
>of use in "heavy snow", but on cold tarmac in all weather conditions,
>too. You've been told often enough, ffs...
In urban areas I can't see the point of them because even if you have them
on and the car drives fine , you'll get the bottom of the road and find it
blocked by half a dozen cars that don't and got stuck.
B2003
Ret.
That may be so - but so far, in 47 years of motoring, I have never had a
problem in winter with my summer tyres. I went to the post office this
morning. The roads on my estate were icy and slippery - but merely by taking
it easy I had no problem in maintaining grip and getting to the post office
and back in perfect safety. Of course, even with winter tyres, you wont be
protected from other drivers losing grip and crashing into you...
Kev
Adrian
saying:
>>One of these days, you're going to accept that winter tyres are NOT only
>>of use in "heavy snow", but on cold tarmac in all weather conditions,
>>too. You've been told often enough, ffs...
> In urban areas I can't see the point of them because even if you have
> them on and the car drives fine , you'll get the bottom of the road and
> find it blocked by half a dozen cars that don't and got stuck.
Strange how that doesn't appear to have been a problem for me so far.
Maybe it's because they mean I don't have to stick to a handful of main
roads?
Ret.
I'm fortunate in that being retired I am rarely in the position of 'having
to be somewhere' and so I can pick and choose when I want to venture onto
the roads. A couple of weeks ago I was returning home from Warrington and
chose a route through Preston Brook. The road there was like a sheet of ice
and also had a skim of melted water on the surface that made it extremely
slippery. If I was injudicious with the throttle the front wheels would just
spin. I put the auto-box into 'snow' mode and kept things slow (no choice
because I was in a long line of very slow moving traffic) - and was able to
maintain grip and continue the journey home. Now, it may well be that had I
had winter tyres fitted, I would have had 'better' grip - but my summer
tyres did not prevent me from proceeding and so the point is irrelevant. I
couldn't have gone any faster on winter tyres because of the rest of the
traffic.
If I thought I would gain any real advantage by purchasing winter tyres (and
another set of wheels), then I would do so - but I don't and, apart from the
cost there is the question of where do you store a full set of four
wheels/tyres when not in use.
Kev
Adrian
>> One of these days, you're going to accept that winter tyres are NOT
>> only of use in "heavy snow", but on cold tarmac in all weather
>> conditions, too. You've been told often enough, ffs...
> That may be so - but so far, in 47 years of motoring, I have never had a
> problem in winter with my summer tyres.
Yeh, that's what I thought, too.
> I went to the post office this morning.
Highlight of your week, eh?
> Of course, even with winter tyres, you wont be protected from other
> drivers losing grip and crashing into you...
You'll have a damn sight better chance of getting out of their way,
though.
Adrian
> and, apart from the cost
Marginal cost - very low, since you save the winter's wear on your normal
tyres.
> there is the question of where do you store a full set of four wheels/
> tyres when not in use.
You really are getting VERY desperate now, aren't you? FFS, are you
SERIOUSLY telling me you don't have anywhere to stack a set of four
wheels?
Halmyre
Maybe he's been a client of Garage2Room? I sometimes wonder where
people keep large and/or dirty bits of machinery in such instances -
women have an unaccountable tendency to jump up and down and scream
when they find oily bits (this includes husbands) lying round the
house...
--
Halmyre
Adrian
like they were saying:
>> > there is the question of where do you store a full set of four
>> > wheels/ tyres when not in use.
>> You really are getting VERY desperate now, aren't you? FFS, are you
>> SERIOUSLY telling me you don't have anywhere to stack a set of four
>> wheels?
> Maybe he's been a client of Garage2Room? I sometimes wonder where people
> keep large and/or dirty bits of machinery in such instances - women have
> an unaccountable tendency to jump up and down and scream when they find
> oily bits (this includes husbands) lying round the house...
I think SWMBO is one of the better examples of the breed when it comes to
tolerance for this...
Whether that's by nature or desensitisation through exposure is another
question...
"What's that?"
Umm, it's a carburettor, dear.
"What's it doing there?"
Not much.
"oh"
Martin
news:i5SdncNw59osWNzW...@brightview.co.uk...
>
> <bolta...@boltar.world> wrote in message
> news:hhsg9r$ubn$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> On 4 Jan 2010 10:29:01 GMT
>
>> need
>> the extra set of wheels to go with them unless you want to take the car
>> down
>> to the tyre fitters each time you change them. And another 4 wheels isn't
>> cheap on any car.
>
I wish I'd thought of going to a scrap yard when some toerag nicked the
spare wheel from the cage underneath the boot of my Pug 306. Instead I went
to a tyre repair place (KwikFit or something similar) and they had to get
the wheel (a bog-standard steel one, not an alloy) from the local Pug garage
and I paid �70 for the wheel and tyre.
My sister and her family found that even a 4x4 with winter tyres can be
defeated by an unmade road (bumpy earth over a village green) that has had
about two weeks worth of snowfalls each day, compacted by people driving
over it. Nice to know it wasn't that much better than my FWD car with normal
tyres on the same road ;-)
I wonder how much difference those "snow socks" would have made on snow that
has been compacted into ice?
Adrian
saying:
>>> Depends where you live and how much you drive. Its not just tyres ,
>>> you need the extra set of wheels to go with them unless you want to
>>> take the car down to the tyre fitters each time you change them. And
>>> another 4 wheels isn't cheap on any car.
>> Usually a tenner a wheel for a steelie from the scrappies.
> I wish I'd thought of going to a scrap yard when some toerag nicked the
> spare wheel from the cage underneath the boot of my Pug 306. Instead I
> went to a tyre repair place (KwikFit or something similar) and they had
> to get the wheel (a bog-standard steel one, not an alloy) from the local
> Pug garage and I paid £70 for the wheel and tyre.
So the brand new steel wheel would be £25 or so, with the tyre most of
that £70.
> My sister and her family found that even a 4x4 with winter tyres can be
> defeated by an unmade road (bumpy earth over a village green) that has
> had about two weeks worth of snowfalls each day, compacted by people
> driving over it. Nice to know it wasn't that much better than my FWD car
> with normal tyres on the same road ;-)
Oh, I dunno... I bet it would have been a LOT better than a normal FWD
car on summer tyres... Can't work miracles, though. And what was this
"4x4"? Softroader? Do they actually know how to use it, if it's got part-
time 4wd & a manual centre difflock?
Ret.
> "Ret." <xxx> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:
>
>>> One of these days, you're going to accept that winter tyres are NOT
>>> only of use in "heavy snow", but on cold tarmac in all weather
>>> conditions, too. You've been told often enough, ffs...
>
>> That may be so - but so far, in 47 years of motoring, I have never
>> had a problem in winter with my summer tyres.
>
> Yeh, that's what I thought, too.
>
>> I went to the post office this morning.
>
> Highlight of your week, eh?
Hardly. I had to pay £6.55 to return a set of 100 blank CD-R's to Play.Com
because they sent the wrong ones. I've not had to return anything to
Play.Com before - but as it was their mistake I'm certainly expecting them
to refund the postage.
>
>> Of course, even with winter tyres, you wont be protected from other
>> drivers losing grip and crashing into you...
>
> You'll have a damn sight better chance of getting out of their way,
> though.
LOL! Maybe..
Kev
Ret.
Well, unlike most people, I am one of that rare group who actually uses his
garage for the purpose it was intended - so I can't put them in there. I
certainly could roll them one by one to the bottom of the garden and take up
a lot of space in my garden shed I suppose.
Kev
Adrian
>>> there is the question of where do you store a full set of four wheels/
>>> tyres when not in use.
>> You really are getting VERY desperate now, aren't you? FFS, are you
>> SERIOUSLY telling me you don't have anywhere to stack a set of four
>> wheels?
> Well, unlike most people, I am one of that rare group who actually uses
> his garage for the purpose it was intended - so I can't put them in
> there.
You can't? Why ever not?
Conor
says...
> >Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
>
> Not much use in an auto.
>
Shove it in neutral then. Jesus Christ....
> >> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
> >> some
> >> point unless you have winter tyres.
> >>
> >Not really.
>
> I defy you to drive a car in snow on summer tyres and never lose any grip.
>
Snow is easy to drive on. In fact, I'd prefer to drive on snow as it is
far better than ice. The easiest snow of all to drive on is freshly laid
stuff.
...but you already know that :p
--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I'm not prejudiced. I hate everybody equally.
Conor
says...
>
> It isn't. And pulling the handbrake in snow is one of the dumbest things
> you can do as combined with the lack of grip it can cause a full lockup
> of the rear wheels.
>
You're beyond help.
> >Failing that, learn to drive and fit winter tyres.
>
> I can drive in snow fine thanks.
Apparently not.
Conor
>
> Douglas Payne <dou...@cheerful.com> gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying:
>
> > The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same car
>
> Yay! Triumph Dolomite!
Technically, the FWD one was a Toledo and had a shorter boot....
Sorry for being anal, a Dolomite was my first car.
Adrian
saying:
>> > The only fair comparison might be a FWD and RWD version of the same
>> > car
>> Yay! Triumph Dolomite!
> Technically, the FWD one was a Toledo and had a shorter boot....
Not quite - the Toledo was RWD, with the boot from the FWD 1300.
> Sorry for being anal, a Dolomite was my first car.
You've forgetten about the FWD 1500 - long nose & tail, looked identical
to a Dolloposhite. My brother had one as his first car, my mother had a
pair of Sprints back in the day.
Ret.
Because there is only sufficient space in my garage for my car - and that's
a tight squeeze as it is.
Kev
Harry Bloomfield
> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
> recently switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years
> and in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The
> nose went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction
> as soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>
> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
> option for most
Each has their good and bad points, so generally I would suggest on
balance it is even. A front drive always has the wheels pointing the
way you are trying to drive, but is trying to pull which offers a
little less grip. A rear wheel drive pushes, so tends to offer more
grip in that respect and seems more controllable when it does start to
slip, but it will usually be the lighter of the two ends - you do have
the option add some weight in the boot to increase the grip.
My personal preference is rear wheel drive.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
Adrian
No space for a shelf? Or flat against the wall behind the door?
Initiative, man, initiative!
bolta...@boltar.world
Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <hhsisr$21k$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, bolta...@boltar.world
>says...
>
>> >Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
>>
>> Not much use in an auto.
>>
>Shove it in neutral then. Jesus Christ....
Well thats hardly the same is - its all or nothing. You don't get the fine
control you get with a clutch.
>> I defy you to drive a car in snow on summer tyres and never lose any grip.
>>
>Snow is easy to drive on. In fact, I'd prefer to drive on snow as it is
>far better than ice. The easiest snow of all to drive on is freshly laid
>stuff.
It doesn't stay frehsly laid for long though. Once a few vehicles have gone
over it its slippery slush that soon freezes into ice.
B2003
bolta...@boltar.world
Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>> It isn't. And pulling the handbrake in snow is one of the dumbest things
>> you can do as combined with the lack of grip it can cause a full lockup
>> of the rear wheels.
>>
>You're beyond help.
Whatever your knackered crapi with its drum brakes and rubber band handbrake
cable might do is unlikely to be representative of most modern cars.
>
>> >Failing that, learn to drive and fit winter tyres.
>>
>> I can drive in snow fine thanks.
>
>Apparently not.
I've never yet had a prang or lost control driving in slippery conditions
until the dozens of muppets I saw stranded the other week so I must be doing
something right.
B2003
Conor
says...
>
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:32:14 -0000
> Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> >> It isn't. And pulling the handbrake in snow is one of the dumbest things
> >> you can do as combined with the lack of grip it can cause a full lockup
> >> of the rear wheels.
> >>
> >You're beyond help.
>
> Whatever your knackered crapi with its drum brakes and rubber band handbrake
> cable might do is unlikely to be representative of most modern cars.
>
> >> I can drive in snow fine thanks.
> >
> >Apparently not.
>
> I've never yet had a prang or lost control driving in slippery conditions
> until the dozens of muppets I saw stranded the other week so I must be doing
> something right.
>
Yet you seem to have trouble with understanding the correct techniques
people have mentioned.
Conor
Conor
says...
>
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:31:43 -0000
> Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> >In article <hhsisr$21k$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, bolta...@boltar.world
> >says...
> >
> >> >Try dipping the clutch. It'll allow the tyres to grip again.
> >>
> >> Not much use in an auto.
> >>
> >Shove it in neutral then. Jesus Christ....
>
> Well thats hardly the same is - its all or nothing. You don't get the fine
> control you get with a clutch.
>
to have no issues in her 200BHP V6 Mitsubishi FTO.
bolta...@boltar.world
Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>> Whatever your knackered crapi with its drum brakes and rubber band handbrake
>> cable might do is unlikely to be representative of most modern cars.
>>
>I don't drive a Capri. Do try to keep up.
Finally died did it?
>> I've never yet had a prang or lost control driving in slippery conditions
>> until the dozens of muppets I saw stranded the other week so I must be doing
>> something right.
>>
>Yet you seem to have trouble with understanding the correct techniques
>people have mentioned.
Using the handbrake in miminal grip conditions that bypasses the ABS system
and could easily lead to loss of control is a correct technique??
Whatever. I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more. You drive your way,
I'll drive mine.
B2003
Conor
says...
>
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:10:42 -0000
> Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Whatever your knackered crapi with its drum brakes and rubber band handbrake
> >> cable might do is unlikely to be representative of most modern cars.
> >>
> >I don't drive a Capri. Do try to keep up.
>
> Finally died did it?
>
> Using the handbrake in miminal grip conditions that bypasses the ABS system
> and could easily lead to loss of control is a correct technique??
>
Why would it lead to loss of control?
> Whatever. I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.
Does that mean you're going to fuck off from this group altogether then?
bolta...@boltar.world
Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>> Well thats hardly the same is - its all or nothing. You don't get the fine
>> control you get with a clutch.
>>
>Yes you do. Sorry, yes everyone else apart from you does. My wife seems
Not really. When you re-engage drive you can't slowly bring the idling torque
back. It comes back instantly. Not really ideal in very slippery conditions.
Plus constantly switching from drive to neutral and back again doesn't do the
box any favours.
>to have no issues in her 200BHP V6 Mitsubishi FTO.
I guess we know who earns the real money in your house.
B2003
bolta...@boltar.world
Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>> Using the handbrake in miminal grip conditions that bypasses the ABS system
>> and could easily lead to loss of control is a correct technique??
>>
>Why would it lead to loss of control?
The wheels lock up , you skid.
>> Whatever. I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.
>
>Does that mean you're going to fuck off from this group altogether then?
You mean have a little queenie fit and flounce off in a huff for a few
weeks like you did?
No. Bad luck.
B2003
Silk
> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I recently
> switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
> in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The nose
> went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
> soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>
> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
If you need to know, you're driving too fast.
Adrian
saying:
>>to have no issues in her 200BHP V6 Mitsubishi FTO.
> I guess we know who earns the real money in your house.
You don't know what an FTO is, do you?
Adrian
saying:
>> You've forgetten about the FWD 1500 - long nose & tail, looked
>> identical to a Dolloposhite. My brother had one as his first car, my
>> mother had a pair of Sprints back in the day.
> I never came across a FWD 1500.
Harry Bloomfield
> bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
> saying:
>
>>>> Well in snow you don't have much choice. You're going to lose grip at
>>>> some point unless you have winter tyres.
>
>>> Not really.
>
>> grip.
>
A tyre has to have some slip, or you would not be able to turn corners
or bends. If you take a left hand bend, the right hand side of the tyre
has to take a longer path around the bend than the left hand side. The
only way that can be done is by the tyre slipping or to some extent
winding up the tread.
thomas
"Silk" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:hht8ll$512$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> If you need to know, you're driving too fast.
being omnisient and perfect (know it all) must be difficult but thanks for
the indepth analysis and good advice ;-)
FWD is usually considered better for snow although there are loads of other
factors - even down to the width of tyres and how soft the suspension
Renault 4s and Citroens' 2cv were amazingly good
Harry Bloomfield
> If I thought I would gain any real advantage by purchasing winter tyres (and
> another set of wheels), then I would do so - but I don't and, apart from the
> cost there is the question of where do you store a full set of four
I have a full spare set of 5x wheels and tyres for one of my vehicles
and of course plenty of room to store them. Those fitted and all of the
spares are standard 170mph summer tyres. I feel absolutely no
inclination or need to buy or use winter tyres for this or any other of
my vehicles.
Ret.
I already have several shelves, and a gas boiler, filling up all wall space.
My 75 tourer is a long car - there is insufficient space in my garage to put
a 215 wheel/tyre in front or behind.
Kev
Silk
>
> "Silk" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:hht8ll$512$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> If you need to know, you're driving too fast.
>
It can be a curse, but at least I don't slip in the snow. ;-) ;-)
Ret.
Well I feel the same Harry. If I felt there was a need - then I would spend
the money - I don't and so I wont. It has to be borne in mind that this
winter is one of the coldest, with more snow, than we have had for many many
years - and even this year I have managed quite happily with summer tyres.
Kev
Conor
Apparently not. Does that honestly come as a surprise?
Conor
says...
> >Yes you do. Sorry, yes everyone else apart from you does. My wife seems
>
> Not really. When you re-engage drive you can't slowly bring the idling torque
> back. It comes back instantly.
No it doesn't.
> Plus constantly switching from drive to neutral and back again doesn't
> do the box any favours.
>
The box doesn't care. You could always try lifting off the throttle...
> >to have no issues in her 200BHP V6 Mitsubishi FTO.
>
> I guess we know who earns the real money in your house.
>
I guess we know who doesn't have a clue what a FTO is.
Conor
says...
>
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:21:16 -0000
> Conor <co...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Using the handbrake in miminal grip conditions that bypasses the ABS system
> >> and could easily lead to loss of control is a correct technique??
> >>
> >Why would it lead to loss of control?
>
> The wheels lock up , you skid.
>
> >> Whatever. I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.
> >
> >Does that mean you're going to fuck off from this group altogether then?
>
> You mean have a little queenie fit and flounce off in a huff for a few
> weeks like you did?
>
I never left. Those in here with a brain know what psuedonym I used.
Conor
> > I never came across a FWD 1500.
>
> Ah...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_1500
Thanks for that. Might save me a load of grief in the future..
Steve Firth
Conor
Steve Firth
> In article <1jbt8n4.adfumow9qqrkN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>, Steve Firth
> says...
> >
> > Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
> > > saying:
> > >
> > > >>to have no issues in her 200BHP V6 Mitsubishi FTO.
> > >
> > > > I guess we know who earns the real money in your house.
> > >
> > > You don't know what an FTO is, do you?
> >
> > I think there was one in my cornflakes packet this morning.
>
> You were diddled...
Too right, it only left enough room for twenty cornflakes.
DavidR
> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
> recently
> switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
> in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The
> nose
> went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
> soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>
> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
> option for most of us).
Fwd and reverse up hill. Or an old Beelte or Skoda.
On the road outside my house drivers of BMWs and Mercs had the most
difficulty. Next in line seemed to be the people that had heard of the
advice to use second gear because in order to do 5-10mph they had the added
difficulty of having to avoid the engine bog down. (I don't understand the
logic for
the advice.)
Of cars I've had, I have felt more comfortable with rwd (so long there was
enough grip for the uphills).
Harry Bloomfield
> I'm not, for one moment, saying that winter tyres are 'no good'. What I am
> saying is that for most 'urban motorists' (and certainly for a retired urban
> motorist like me) they are an unnecessary expense. Even when we do have heavy
> snow - it rarely lies on the roads for more than a day or so. I genuinely
> have never been prevented from proceeding by snow in 47 years of motoring and
> so, for me, buying winter tyres would be an unnecessary expense.
Not forgetting of course they have a very narrow margin of conditions
where they can prove to be of more use than summer tyres - as in on
reasonably fresh uncompacted snow.
Clive George
news:7qf6rk...@mid.individual.net...
> <bolta...@boltar.world> wrote
>
>> With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>> everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
>> recently
>> switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
>> in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The
>> nose
>> went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction
>> as
>> soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>>
>> What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an
>> expensive
>> option for most of us).
>
> Fwd and reverse up hill. Or an old Beelte or Skoda.
So, who remembers Stig Blomqvist's 3rd place in the RAC rally back in 1996?
Driving a Skoda. FWD. Snow all over the place. No studs.
Steve Firth
> Ret. used his keyboard to write :
> > I'm not, for one moment, saying that winter tyres are 'no good'. What I
> > am saying is that for most 'urban motorists' (and certainly for a
> > retired urban motorist like me) they are an unnecessary expense.
I'm sure if you spend all winter hibernating then there's no need for
winter tyres. And of course expense should be the prime consideration
when determining road safety.
Obviously you must give a round of applause to those enterprising
motorists who avoid unnecessary expenses such as maintaining thie
vehicle, getting an MoT and paying insurance.
> > Even when we do have heavy snow - it rarely lies on the roads for more
> > than a day or so. I genuinely have never been prevented from proceeding
> > by snow in 47 years of motoring and so, for me, buying winter tyres
> > would be an unnecessary expense.
So you've never driven even as far as Macclesfield, eh? And you've
certainly never had to drive as far as the Cheshire border on the B5470.
But still, you're qualified to pontificate about what is necessary in
winter.
> Not forgetting of course they have a very narrow margin of conditions
> where they can prove to be of more use than summer tyres - as in on
> reasonably fresh uncompacted snow.
More cobblers. Winter tyres are designed for winter conditions. They
offer more grip than summer tyres on cold wet roads, better ability to
clear water and prevent aquaplaning on roads with standing water and
perform better in ice and snow.
I see your driving knowledge is to the fore, again.
Peter Hill
wrote:
>With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I recently
>switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
>in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The nose
>went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
>soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>
>What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
>option for most of us).
>
>B2003
Anything with a limited slip diff beats anything without, even some
4wd if they have wrong arrangement of open/limited slip diffs.
Torsen or Quaif torque biasing diffs may as well be open once on ice
as 5x nothing is still nothing.
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!
Steve Firth
> bolta...@boltar.world gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
> saying:
>
> > With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
> > everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
> > recently switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for
> > years and in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more
> > controllable.
>
> FWD, any time.
Yep. If I didn't have the 4x4 it would be FWD for winter. I've taken a
large FWD motorhome through Switzerland in a blizzard. RWD cars were
abandoned by the roadside.
Martin
news:p7v4k51vteee2mr6b...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:03:30 +0000 (UTC), bolta...@boltar.world
> wrote:
>
>>With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>>everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I
>>recently
>>switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
>>in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The
>>nose
>>went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
>>soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>>
>>What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
>>option for most of us).
>>
>>B2003
>
> Anything with a limited slip diff beats anything without, even some
> 4wd if they have wrong arrangement of open/limited slip diffs.
>
> Torsen or Quaif torque biasing diffs may as well be open once on ice
> as 5x nothing is still nothing.
Exactly. If all four wheels lose grip, then no amount of diff-locking
between wheels and/or between axles is going to help.
But if some wheels still have grip then diff-locking will help. When I got
bogged down in snow the other week, only one of my two wheels was spinning.
Having shoved a carpet mat under the spinning wheel, the car moved - I
didn't simply transfer the problem to the other wheel: that one had enough
grip but was useless because the differential was doing its normal job.
When trying to go up a hill, I can imagine that RWD might be better because
more of the car's weight will be over the rear wheels when going up hill.
Someone has suggested that if you have FWD you should try reversing up the
hill to simulate the extra weight on the driving wheels. But this is not
always sucessful: I know with the hill that I got stuck on every day that
the only way to get even part of the way up it was to take a run at it
(going up at a steady crawl, I could only get a few feet before the wheels
spun), and it is MUCH easier to take a run at it when you're going forwards
and can see better where you're going so as to not veer off the road and hit
a kerb or parked car.
Harry Bloomfield
> When trying to go up a hill, I can imagine that RWD might be better because
> more of the car's weight will be over the rear wheels when going up hill.
> Someone has suggested that if you have FWD you should try reversing up the
> hill to simulate the extra weight on the driving wheels.
Any wheel which is trying to push, will tend to try to dig in due to
weight transfer - which is why RWD works so well. Any wheel which is
trying to pull, looses grip due to weight transfer towards the rear.
This much is obvious even in the dry when a FWD tries to pull away and
the tyre scream as the grip is lost.
Peter Hill
wrote:
>With yet more snow predicted I was just wondering what the opinions of
>everyone was with regards to front vs rear wheel drive in the snow. I recently
>switched back to driving a RWD car after driving FWD cars for years and
>in the recent snow the other week it felt a lot more controllable. The nose
>went where I pointed it instead of heading off in some random direction as
>soon as the wheels lost traction as always seemed to happen with FWD.
>
>What do other people think? (Yes I know 4WD is best but thats an expensive
>option for most of us).
>
>B2003
Then there's the one wheel drive, rwd option - a motorcycle. Narrow
profile tyres of commuter, classic and bikes up to 80's work best. In
a heavy snowfall I got to within 50m of home up a long 1 in 4 that had
a solid queue of stuck traffic that had packed it down to ice.
Initally the crown of the road was still passable but by 1/2 way up
they had packed that down too so had to switch to nearside. Stuck the
wheel in the guttter and got traction on the kerb.
brass monkey
Never mind, Harry. As yet, the world isn't completely full of arseholes.
Your killfile is perfect for firth (as is everyone's).
Not mine, I enjoy these excuses for mankind ;)
Adrian
>>> I went to the post office this morning.
>> Highlight of your week, eh?
> Hardly. I had to pay £6.55 to return a set of 100 blank CD-R's to
> Play.Com because they sent the wrong ones.
They're blank CDs, ffs...
1. Isn't that about the price of the damn things in the first place?
2. Why do you need that many, assuming you're not pirating?
3. "the wrong CD-Rs"? They're either CD-Rs or they're not...
4. Why couldn't you just walk to the PO, ffs, you idle git?