Activent fabric?
David J Bennett
Dear all,
how weather proof is activent fabric. Are we talking lets heavy rain
(not deluge) through in 10 minutes or 3 hours?
I'm after a waterproof top and can't narrow it down beyond the Endura
Dekota, some kind of activent shell or the "protective dermizax drop in
shell".
The Endura top has side vent zips, but the others don't, for ventilation,
that would be good!
Alternatively, does anyone know if TX10 direct will make my Buffolo
windshirt pertex top properly waterproof?
The
--
| David J. Bennett | Phone: +44 (0)1904 432748 |
| Dept of Computer Science | Email: abdu...@earthling.net |
| University of York | Fax: +44 (0)1904 432767 |
| York, YO1 5DD, UK | WWW: http://www.york.ac.uk/~djb104/ |
Rhys Williams
> I'm after a waterproof top and can't narrow it down beyond the Endura
> Dekota
I'm not sure which one the Dakota is, but the one I've got is pretty
good at keeping wind and rain out. It's a red pull-on thing, with
full-length side vents and a front map pocket, made in Breathe material.
It keeps heavy rain out for around 2 hours, and the side zips do their
job if I get too warm. The fit could be improved a bit though - a bit
loose at the neck and too long in the body for me.
Rhys
--
Dr Rhys Williams
Ysgol Peirianneg School of Engineering
Prifysgol Caerdydd Cardiff University
01222 874000 ext 5942 http://circuits.cf.ac.uk/icdesign/
Shaun C. Murray
In article <6lj761$1td$2...@pump1.york.ac.uk>, djb...@york.ac.uk says...
>
>how weather proof is activent fabric. Are we talking lets heavy rain
>(not deluge) through in 10 minutes or 3 hours?
It's not totally waterproof but I find as long as you keep cycling it copes
with most rain. It doesn't cope with torential downpours and usually I become
a bit damp where boney bits are touching the fabric. When you stop it's
reasonably waterproof but not Goretex.
>
>I'm after a waterproof top and can't narrow it down beyond the Endura
>Dekota, some kind of activent shell or the "protective dermizax drop in
>shell".
Not heard of either sorry. I've been using a Ron Hill Activent Jacket for
about 18 months.
>
>The Endura top has side vent zips, but the others don't, for ventilation,
>that would be good!
Whereas Activent isn't as breathable as Pertex, I doubt the need for
ventilation zips unless it's really humid.
>
>Alternatively, does anyone know if TX10 direct will make my Buffolo
>windshirt pertex top properly waterproof?
Might it not affect the breathability?
Shaun
Andrew Henry
In article <6lj761$1td$2...@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
David J Bennett <djb...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>how weather proof is activent fabric. Are we talking lets heavy rain
>(not deluge) through in 10 minutes or 3 hours?
"Waterproof" is a term that you need to be wary of when its
used to describe cycling stuff. A lot of fabrics are "waterproof"
when they leave the factory, as they have a water repellant
coating. Once this wears off, then they become water-resistant.
To make a waterproof jacket out of it means that the seams have
to be taped, and you need storm flaps over the zips. These
add onto the cost, so they often get left out.
A truly waterproof jacket is also not as good as you might think.
Water will run off it quickly and leave you soaking wet just
where your waterproof stuff stops. If you don't mind wearing
waterproof overtrousers and overshoes with a waterproof jacket,
then you can stay "dry" if you can keep water from dribbling
down your neck. If you try to get away with just a waterproof
jacket, then you get a soaking wet band around your thighs.
If you add waterproof overtrousers, but not the overshoes,
then your shoes get filled with water.
Personally, I find it better to be warm and comfortable, even if
this means getting a bit damp. If you are likely to be cycling for
hours in very heavy rain, or if you're off in the middle of
nowhere, where you could get exposure then you do need fully
waterproof stuff to keep warm.
I have a couple of jackets made from a foam-like fabric (called
something like ThermoMax on the jacket thats made by Lusso).
This fabric keeps me dry in moderate rain, stays warm and
comfortable when its wet, and it dries out quickly. It also
doesn't let water run off onto my trousers. Its also stiff enough
so that you can open a zip with one hand, which I find difficult
with the Pertex jacket that I tried. For commuting and reasonably
short rides (a few hours), I find this much more comfortable. In
any case, I think I would be more tempted by tea shops if I was
faced with riding in heavy rain for longer than that.
--
Andrew Henry
ahe...@dircon.co.uk
js53
David J Bennett wrote:
>
> does anyone know if TX10 direct will make my Buffolo
> windshirt pertex top properly waterproof?
>
TX Direct is not a water-proofer, mearly a water-repellent.
Your Buffalo top is not waterproof, and no amount of repellent will make
it so. If it was that simple, why don't they do it themselvs ?
Having said that, I use a pertex top that is very simmalar to a Buffalo
top and it has TX Direct on it as is winderfull for everything but
winter downpoors.
A big factor with waterproof tops and cycleing is how breathable they
are. Pertex is wonderfull and breathable compared to allmost everthing
else bu it is not waterproof (with a few exceptions).
If you use a waterproof top they you may get rearly wet anyway since you
will sweat (like a clclist) and it will have nowhere to go.
Alternatively, you could go slowly and sweat less !
To my mind, the only other alternative is to splash out on a Gore-Tex
jacket, but even this is not a breathable as good old Pertex.
Jon
Paul Smee
In article <6ljid6$1...@tdc.dircon.co.uk>,
Andrew Henry <ahe...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>Personally, I find it better to be warm and comfortable, even if
>this means getting a bit damp.
I've long had to settle for that. I sweat sufficiently (family curse)
that anything that will keep me from getting wet from the outside will
leave me drenched from the inside. Can't win. (Goretex can't really
keep up.)
It is nice to keep the incoming flow of cold water down to something
that your body can heat up, but at least for me 'windproof' is much
more important.
Shaun C. Murray
In article <357D45...@ukc.ac.uk>, js...@ukc.ac.uk says...
>To my mind, the only other alternative is to splash out on a Gore-Tex
>jacket, but even this is not a breathable as good old Pertex.
In my experience, Goretex is of no use whatsoever for fast cyclists. You end
up with more sweat inside than rain outside. Sympatex is better but still one
for expedition plods rather than cycling.
Pertex is great for day cycling when the weather is changeable. Bang in the
middle of the two is Activent. Fairly breathable, Mostly waterproof (with
Andrew Henry's points noted).
One of the most important points for me though, is washability.
Goretex/Sympatex needs special care unlike Activent which you can just bung in
your usual 40 deg wash. When you're washing your coat every week or so, it's a
big difference.
Shaun
Andy Dingley
On 9 Jun 1998 11:44:01 GMT, djb...@york.ac.uk (David J Bennett) wrote:
>how weather proof is activent fabric.
Disappointingly damp, IMHE 8-(
Chris French
>In article <6lj761$1td$2...@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
>David J Bennett <djb...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>
>>how weather proof is activent fabric. Are we talking lets heavy rain
>>(not deluge) through in 10 minutes or 3 hours?
>
>
>A truly waterproof jacket is also not as good as you might think.
>Water will run off it quickly and leave you soaking wet just
>where your waterproof stuff stops. If you don't mind wearing
>waterproof overtrousers and overshoes with a waterproof jacket,
>then you can stay "dry" if you can keep water from dribbling
>down your neck. If you try to get away with just a waterproof
>jacket, then you get a soaking wet band around your thighs.
> If you are likely to be cycling for
>hours in very heavy rain, or if you're off in the middle of
>nowhere, where you could get exposure then you do need fully
>waterproof stuff to keep warm.
>
I have never got one with overtrousers, and don't wear them, although I
can envisage a few situations when they might be useful.
Personally I find keeping my top dry(ish) much more important than my
legs, so I don't mind the run off from my jacket - tracksters dry
quickly anyway. If my top gets too wet I soon get much colder.
I until recently used a Goretex walking jacket which I found good, but I
have now got a VauDe jacket which was much cheaper and lighter than my
Goretex. It is made of a reasonably breathable material and seems fine
so far.
--
Chris French
Email address valid for at least two weeks from posting
David J Bennett
js53 (js...@ukc.ac.uk) wrote:
: David J Bennett wrote:
: >
: > does anyone know if TX10 direct will make my Buffolo
: > windshirt pertex top properly waterproof?
: >
: TX Direct is not a water-proofer, mearly a water-repellent.
: Your Buffalo top is not waterproof, and no amount of repellent will make
: it so. If it was that simple, why don't they do it themselvs ?
Er... nikwax do a range of clothing that basically is just this, some kind
of nylon which you recoat with TX10 (paramo). The question perhaps hsould
have been is this, is pertex very good at picking up TX10, or is it a bit
crap, and if so how long will it keep water out.
djb
David Green
Shaun C. Murray wrote:
> One of the most important points for me though, is washability.
> Goretex/Sympatex needs special care unlike Activent which you can just bung in
> your usual 40 deg wash.
Really? The instructions with my Sympatex jacket say you can simply wash
at 40 degrees. I phoned the manufacturer, who confirmed this. They
advised using a 'gentle' soap powder too (I use Dreft Automatic). Five
years later, the jacket's still fine.
David Green.
--
All opinions expressed in this message are purely personal and do not
reflect the opinions or policies of Smallworldwide Ltd.
Email: David...@Smallworld.co.uk (Technology Transfer)
Pete Clinch
David J Bennett (djb...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
: Er... nikwax do a range of clothing that basically is just this, some kind
: of nylon which you recoat with TX10 (paramo). The question perhaps hsould
: have been is this, is pertex very good at picking up TX10, or is it a bit
: crap, and if so how long will it keep water out.
Under the Paramo moniker, and it actually *is* pertex, which picks up TX10
very well. *But*, and it's a big but, the Paramo clothing relies on a
directional pump liner that's a bit like a thin microfleece: the
pertex/TX10i outer is not intrinsically waterproof by itself, but just
acts to keep the worst out. In this way it functions quite similarly to
Buffalo's Double P.
And the downside of the Paramo stuff is that though more breathable than
Goretex et. al., the liner makes it hotter to start with. Too hot for
active cycling outside of cold days, I'd say (and I've tried it).
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 extension 3637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/MedPhys/
Chris French
In article <357E6795...@Smallworld.co.uk>, David Green <David.Gree
n**@Smallworld.co.uk> writes
>Shaun C. Murray wrote:
>> One of the most important points for me though, is washability.
>> Goretex/Sympatex needs special care unlike Activent which you can just bung in
>> your usual 40 deg wash.
>
>Really? The instructions with my Sympatex jacket say you can simply wash
>at 40 degrees. I phoned the manufacturer, who confirmed this. They
>advised using a 'gentle' soap powder too (I use Dreft Automatic). Five
>years later, the jacket's still fine.
>
Same for Goretex, I've never taken any great special care.
Shaun C. Murray
In article <ksyJYFAZ...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk>,
news...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk says...
>
>>Really? The instructions with my Sympatex jacket say you can simply wash
>>at 40 degrees. I phoned the manufacturer, who confirmed this. They
>>advised using a 'gentle' soap powder too (I use Dreft Automatic). Five
>>years later, the jacket's still fine.
>>
>
>Same for Goretex, I've never taken any great special care.
I found that Goretex would lose it's properties if not washed in G-clean or
something similar. Dreft is ok too aparently. Sympatex - my Sprayway
Craghopper jacket instructions say to use G-clean too. Both then needed a
proofer afterwards.
Both also take too long to dry. My activent jacket is bunged in my normal wash
and drys out in about 4 hours.
Shaun
Chris French
In article <6loftq$lqk$2...@news.enterprise.net>, Shaun C. Murray
<s...@enterprise.net> writes
>In article <ksyJYFAZ...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk>,
>news...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk says...
>>
>>>Really? The instructions with my Sympatex jacket say you can simply wash
>>>at 40 degrees. I phoned the manufacturer, who confirmed this. They
>>>advised using a 'gentle' soap powder too (I use Dreft Automatic). Five
>>>years later, the jacket's still fine.
>>>
>>
>>Same for Goretex, I've never taken any great special care.
>
>I found that Goretex would lose it's properties if not washed in G-clean or
>something similar. Dreft is ok too aparently.
Ecover seems alright too as that's what I normally use.
Peter Clinch
Chris French wrote:
> Ecover seems alright too as that's what I normally use.
Bottom line: if it's pure soap, it's okay, otherwise you're courting
disaster. Liquid soaps tend to be easiest, but flakes are fine as long
as they dissolve fully (no damage if they don't, just less effective).
If you wash non-waterproof stuff in soap rather than detergent it does
improve its ability to shed drizzle and light rain. Detergent works by
reducing surface tension in water droplets, so water penetrates the
garment more easily to wash out dirt. All very well, but any remnants
do the same for rain.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Neal Milne
Don't know about Sympatex but Gore-tex is made from expanded PTFE. PTFE is
one of the most chemically inert polymers on the planet and there is no way
a washing powder is going to damage it (take it from me I'm a chemist). Its
more likely agitation in the washing machine will tear the Gore-tex
membrane so a gentle hand wash would be safest. Clothing manufacturers give
special washing instructions on Gore-tex clothing in order to protect the
water repellant coatings, like TX10, on the outside fabric put there to
help the water bead up and run off. These are damaged/removed by washing
powders with bleach. In my experience (hillwalking) these coatings are crap
and can withstand about ten minutes of heavy rain. This is why a proofed
Activent or Pertex jacket might be showerproof but will never be waterproof
and will require even more care in the wash than a Gore-tex jacket which
will still work even when this outer coating has been removed.
Neal
Paul Smee
In article <01bd95dc$3a132980$3f000002@63>,
Neal Milne <nmi...@warwickint.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>Don't know about Sympatex but Gore-tex is made from expanded PTFE. PTFE is
>one of the most chemically inert polymers on the planet and there is no way
>a washing powder is going to damage it (take it from me I'm a chemist).
The issue isn't that the washing powder will damage it as such. The claim
(Gore's) is that long-chain detergent molecules will (in lay terms) get
'stuck' in the micropores in the Goretex, and then will sit there wicking
water through. They claim soap won't do this. (I'm not a chemist myself,
so not qualified to comment on that, but that's their claim.)
Far as the external water-repellent coating goes, it isn't 'necessary',
but it does help - Goretex breathes better if the outer fabric layer isn't
water-logged. When/if you retreat the outside, you want to use a treatment
designed for breathable garments, so as not to block the micropores.
Andy Dingley
On 12 Jun 98 08:26:22 GMT, "Neal Milne" <nmi...@warwickint.co.uk>
wrote:
>Don't know about Sympatex but Gore-tex is made from expanded PTFE. PTFE is
>one of the most chemically inert polymers on the planet and there is no way
>a washing powder is going to damage it (take it from me I'm a chemist).
Trust me, I'm a doctor.....
Goretex (a fabric where the structure is an essential part of its
function) isn't made from PTFE alone, but from PTFE and _holes_.
PTFE without the added holes just isn't Goretex -- it's an overpriced
plastic bag. Washing powder residue isn't going to damage the PTFE,
but it will play havoc with those crucial litle perforations.
Peter Clinch
Neal Milne wrote:
>
> Don't know about Sympatex but Gore-tex is made from expanded PTFE. PTFE is
> one of the most chemically inert polymers on the planet and there is no way
> a washing powder is going to damage it (take it from me I'm a chemist).
No, it won't damage it, but it will stick in the pores and do its
detergent thing: i.e., help water run through without forming droplets.
> <snip> clothing in order to protect the
> water repellant coatings, like TX10, on the outside fabric put there to
> help the water bead up and run off.
okay execpet TX10 is *not* a coating treatment, and must *not* be used
as one, unless you want to bugger up the breathability by blocking all
the pores with wax. TX10 is a wash in proofer for non-waterproof
fabrics (i.e., fleeces, pertex etc.), to improve their watershedding
characteristics, rather than to make them waterproof. TX Direct is the
Nikwax product you'd use to reproof the outer on a membrane/coated
jacket (sympatex, goretex, cyclone, triple point etc.).
> These are damaged/removed by washing powders with bleach.
Though since a detergent is effectively trying to do precisely the
opposite (i.e., let water penetrate the face of the fabric easily, to
aid washing out dirt), it makes more sense to use soap, which works in a
different way.
> In my experience (hillwalking) these coatings are crap
> and can withstand about ten minutes of heavy rain. This is why a proofed
> Activent or Pertex jacket might be showerproof but will never be waterproof
> and will require even more care in the wash than a Gore-tex jacket which
> will still work even when this outer coating has been removed.
Yes, they are crap (I *love* the way the acronym is "DWR", for "Durable
Water Reppelant": about as durable as a wax fireguard, and they need
redoing with the likes of TX Direct every couple of tears or so to
maintain garment performance.
Pertex with washing proofing isn't waterproof: don't think anyone is
claiming it is, but it will keep off a lot more drizzle and light rain,
and usually dry out faster, bith of which are Big Wins as drizzle is
more common that All Out Rain.
There's no problem washing prrofed pertex/fleece etc: you just chuck it
in the machine and use soap rather than detergent. Since the proofing
permeates the garment it's actually rather more durable than the DWR
coatings on goretex etc, as these are just coatings on the face fabric.
Goretex will stay waterproof without a DWR coating, but it won't breathe
very well: there will be an impermeable barrier of water blocking the
pores, so there's no way the water vapour can escape, so it's important
to maintain the DWR coating with periodic reapplications or the garment
cannot perform as designed. And don't use TX10 to do it!
Myra Van Inwegen
Hmmmm, I've been washing my Gore-Tex jacket in detergent all these
years. At least, I presume Ariel is detergent... My jacket is not
really waterproof now. It is 8 years old and has had heavy use. But
it's still great, as it has a mesh liner and pit zips, so I can adjust
the ventilation for the conditions and stay warm even if I get wet.
But anyway: is there hope for it? If I start washing it with soap will
the pores clear? Or is it too old to worry about? And how do I find
plain soap in the supermarket? (What brands, etc?)
--
-Myra VanInwegen
Myra.Va...@cl.cam.ac.uk http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/mvi20/
Paul Smee
In article <6m2q3l$ga4$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
Myra Van Inwegen <mv...@sprat.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>But anyway: is there hope for it? If I start washing it with soap will
>the pores clear? Or is it too old to worry about? And how do I find
>plain soap in the supermarket? (What brands, etc?)
Can't hurt to try. You can get (pricey) machine-use soap stuff for
cleaning Goretex at good camping/outdoors shops. In supermarkets,
read the labels. :-) I believe that Fairy Flakes are still soap.
Supermarket 'soap' products are all hand-wash only far as I know,
and they suds too much for machine use, though you could probably
sensibly run the thing through a machine rinse cycle after.
After you've done that, iron it on a low setting. (Tag on my jacket
says 'cool iron'.) That sometimes perks Goretex up, though I don't
even pretend to understand why. (Machine drying at a low setting is
similarly reputed to help.)
Then if things seem hopeful, reproof the fabric using a water-proofer
which is designed for breathable fabrics - another trip to the
outdoors shop for that.
Nick Maclaren
In article <EuL9I...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, cc...@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (Paul Smee) writes:
|> In article <6m2q3l$ga4$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
|> Myra Van Inwegen <mv...@sprat.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
|> >But anyway: is there hope for it? If I start washing it with soap will
|> >the pores clear? Or is it too old to worry about? And how do I find
|> >plain soap in the supermarket? (What brands, etc?)
|>
|> Can't hurt to try. You can get (pricey) machine-use soap stuff for
|> cleaning Goretex at good camping/outdoors shops. In supermarkets,
|> read the labels. :-) I believe that Fairy Flakes are still soap.
|> Supermarket 'soap' products are all hand-wash only far as I know,
|> and they suds too much for machine use, though you could probably
|> sensibly run the thing through a machine rinse cycle after.
Frankly, I wouldn't bother. I hand washed mine in washing-up liquid,
with no harmful effect - the key is to rinse the stuff off well - but
the 'harder' detergents may well cause more trouble. Yes, detergents
do 'stick', but the common ones don't stick as much as all that. You
just need to rinse a bit more than with soap.
Also, a possible problem with soap is clogging the pores, because soap
works by reacting with grease, and leaves a semi-soluble scum. This
rinses out of most fabrics without trouble, but Goretex has very fine
pores indeed.
|> After you've done that, iron it on a low setting. (Tag on my jacket
|> says 'cool iron'.) That sometimes perks Goretex up, though I don't
|> even pretend to understand why. (Machine drying at a low setting is
|> similarly reputed to help.)
Boggle.
|> Then if things seem hopeful, reproof the fabric using a water-proofer
|> which is designed for breathable fabrics - another trip to the
|> outdoors shop for that.
Which is actually the real key. The difference between the parts that
I did and the parts that I didn't get to was amazing. Goretex and
similar fabrics rely for a large amount of their effectiveness on
their coating, and really aren't much different from a high-tech
form of oiled cotton.
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email: nm...@cam.ac.uk
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679
Paul Smee
In article <6m32pb$mqo$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
Nick Maclaren <nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>In article <EuL9I...@fsa.bris.ac.uk>, cc...@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (Paul Smee) writes:
>|> After you've done that, iron it on a low setting. (Tag on my jacket
>|> says 'cool iron'.) That sometimes perks Goretex up, though I don't
>|> even pretend to understand why. (Machine drying at a low setting is
>|> similarly reputed to help.)
>
>Boggle.
Yeah, that's what I thought too, and I can't see any reason why it
should have any effect, but Gore do recommend it, and they say that it
does. I sort of assume they ought to know. (Matches my experience,
too, but then that might just be psychological, me seeing it because
Gore say that I should. :-)
Miss J.E. O'Dwyer
Rhys Williams (willi...@cf.ac.uk) wrote:
: > I'm after a waterproof top and can't narrow it down beyond the Endura
: > Dekota
: I'm not sure which one the Dakota is, but the one I've got is pretty
: good at keeping wind and rain out. It's a red pull-on thing, with
: full-length side vents and a front map pocket, made in Breathe material.
: It keeps heavy rain out for around 2 hours, and the side zips do their
: job if I get too warm. The fit could be improved a bit though - a bit
: loose at the neck and too long in the body for me.
: Rhys
: --
I think my Endura jacket is the Dakota too - sounds the same, including
the fact that it's a bit long in the body. Apart from that it's comfortable,
waterproof and reasonably breathable. The side zips are brilliant - with
them open you keep out the worst of the wind and rain and still get loads
of ventilation - good for big hills.
Jane
--------------------------------------------------------
| Dr Jane O'Dwyer | phone 44 (0)151 794 4084 |
| Oceanography Laboratories | fax 44 (0)151 794 4099 |
| University of Liverpool | email j...@liv.ac.uk |
| Liverpool L69 3BX | |
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