Dynamo Hubs - any experience?
Mark (MSA)
there any experience of them in this group?
My daily commute of 24 miles each way sees me ride (at this time of
year), about 40 minutes on completely un-lit, narrow country lanes. So
far (past 2 years) I have managed with a Cateye EL300, twisted slightly
to the left to pick out the white line of the road edge. However, the
EL300 is not bright enough to warn me of any pot holes or debris in the
road at my average speed of 29kph. I also find it needs re-charging
after every 2 commutes to retain full power, what a pain. I NEED more
light.
I was originally going to buy a Nimh re-chargeable set, but I thought I
would investigate dynamos first, even though I was dubious about their
performance.
I don't mind going down the hub route rather than a bottle dynamo which
I understand is less efficient.
My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my
EL300?
Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather than a
Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag, output?
Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above, but I
would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo, presuming
a B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be cheaper
over there? Off to investigate the .de sites now!
Thanks in advance.
--
Mark
_______________________________________
Nerves of Steel, Heart of Gold, Knob of Butter
Mark (MSA)
re-chargeable kit? It does concern me that the Nimh packs can only be
charged a certain number of times, but I'm guessing it must be between
300 and 500 which equates to a good few years use.
Decisions, decisions!
mark
> My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
> only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my EL300?
>
> Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather than a
> Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag, output?
>
> Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above, but I
> would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo, presuming a
> B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
>
> I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be cheaper over
> there? Off to investigate the .de sites now!
>
> Thanks in advance.
I traded my EL300 for a Shimano DH-3N70 (Ultegra quality dynamo hub) and
Busch & Muller Lumotec halogen light. Yes, the output is significantly
better at the speeds you describe (and at lower speeds as well). My Cateye
was adequate for my nighttime cmmutes, the dynohub setup has increased my
enjoyment and safety tremendously.
For a comparison of the 2 Shimano hubs and the Schmidt, see
www.peterwhitecycles.com
If I were travelling at the speeds you travel at and covering the mileage
you cover, I would certainly give serious thought to upgrading from my
present setup. A Schmidt hub, Lumotec primary and E6 secondary could make
your nighttime travel a lot more enjoyable.
--
mark
Mark (MSA)
>> My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light only
>> (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my EL300?
>>
>> Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather than a
>> Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag, output?
>>
>> Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above, but I
>> would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo, presuming a
>> B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
>>
>> I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be cheaper over
>> there? Off to investigate the .de sites now!
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> If I were travelling at the speeds you travel at and covering the mileage you
> cover, I would certainly give serious thought to upgrading from my present
> setup. A Schmidt hub, Lumotec primary and E6 secondary could make your
> nighttime travel a lot more enjoyable.
I wonder how that set-up would compare to say the Electron 5w + 10w
system (or the 5w system with the bulb changed for a 10)?
http://tinyurl.com/cclq7
Just zis Guy, you know?
known to the court as "Mark \(MSA\)" <onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk> made
a statement (<mn.0ccb7d5a7...@yahoo.co.uk> in Your Honour's
bundle) to the following effect:
>I know a lot has been written on the net about dynamo hubs, but is
>there any experience of them in this group?
2 x SON, 1 x Nexus, another Nexus on order...
>My daily commute of 24 miles each way sees me ride (at this time of
>year), about 40 minutes on completely un-lit, narrow country lanes. So
>far (past 2 years) I have managed with a Cateye EL300, twisted slightly
>to the left to pick out the white line of the road edge. However, the
>EL300 is not bright enough to warn me of any pot holes or debris in the
>road at my average speed of 29kph. I also find it needs re-charging
>after every 2 commutes to retain full power, what a pain. I NEED more
>light.
A SON with a B&M Lumotec as primary and a SON E6 headlight as
secondary is my recommendation.
>I was originally going to buy a Nimh re-chargeable set, but I thought I
>would investigate dynamos first, even though I was dubious about their
>performance.
I have ridden thousands of miles on unlit roads with a single 3W
powered off a Nexus, and more with a SON powering a double setup as
above (you connect them in series with a shorting switch across the
secondary, and you don't use the auto-switching Lumotec, just the
standard switched version).
>My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
>only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my
>EL300?
Yes. The lamps have better optics.
>Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather than a
>Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag, output?
Yes. The new Nexus is alleged to be nearly as good, but the SON is
worth every penny. The drag is barely noticeable - I rode 15 miles
with the light on in daylight by accident once, I didn't notice the
extra drag. And the SON does the 12V thing, which is good (again, I
believe the new Nexus does it, but /my/ SONs are better than my Nexus)
>I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be cheaper
>over there? Off to investigate the .de sites now!
Almost certainly - look at bicycles.de some time.
Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
jon...@breathe.com
This is nit pcking.
The hub dynamo is fit and forget always works gives enough light and
un-noticable drag.A 3w front is enough for me in dark lanes and not
having to worry about it running down is a great improvement.
It will be fine for your commute and a great improvement on batteries.
If you like lots of light at times wear a head torch or use a battery
light as well,but if there is little light you don't need much, and if
blinded by car lights you cannot really compete anyway.
I have had a B&M oval halogen lamp with a shimano hub dynamo for a
couple of years.LED rear.
Old dynamos caused noticable drag.Expensive modern bottles do not.I was
glad to see the back of bottles.
TerryJ
Jon Senior
> If I were travelling at the speeds you travel at and covering the mileage
> you cover, I would certainly give serious thought to upgrading from my
> present setup. A Schmidt hub, Lumotec primary and E6 secondary could make
> your nighttime travel a lot more enjoyable.
If I were doing it, I'd fit an LED front (Unless you dislike the quality
of light). I can provide circuit diagrams (Thanks again Chris!) which
would cover most of the work of connecting the Luxeon LEDs to a dynohub.
The 3W LED is (IIRC) the limit of what can be achieved with the normal
dynohubs, but will provide more than enough light output to work with. I
currently run one with a 7.2v battery pack (Built for a different lamp)
at half current and it is easily bright enough for cautious travel of
unlit cycle tracks (Tested earlier in the week). Running it at full
whack should be bright enough for most road use.
Jon
mark
> I wonder how that set-up would compare to say the Electron 5w + 10w system
> (or the 5w system with the bulb changed for a 10)?
Depends on how good the optics of the Electron system are. My questions
about any battery system are 1) how do low temperatures affect battery run
time and 2) what happens to battery output as the charge is depleted. The
beauty of dynamos is that you never have to worry about charging batteries,
batteries dying prematurely in the cold, forgetting to charge batteries or
any of that stuff.
--
mark
Simon Brooke
('onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk') wrote:
> I know a lot has been written on the net about dynamo hubs, but is
> there any experience of them in this group?
>
> My daily commute of 24 miles each way sees me ride (at this time of
> year), about 40 minutes on completely un-lit, narrow country lanes. So
> far (past 2 years) I have managed with a Cateye EL300, twisted slightly
> to the left to pick out the white line of the road edge. However, the
> EL300 is not bright enough to warn me of any pot holes or debris in the
> road at my average speed of 29kph. I also find it needs re-charging
> after every 2 commutes to retain full power, what a pain. I NEED more
> light.
Twenty-odd years ago, for six years, I used to commute twelve miles each
way summer and winter on unlit roads, and would often also go into town
to visit friends in the evenings, a further four miles each way. I used
a dynamo and judged it adequate for riding briskly and far better than
the battery lights available at the time, _but_ those lights were
nothing like as good as modern battery lights. I now have one bike in
the house with a Shimano Nexus hub dynamo, and am thinking of fitting
one to my own winter training bike. Dynamo lights have also improved
over the years, but (apart from the new, expensive Solidlights one) not
nearly as much as battery lights have. The one we have now I judge to be
bright enough for night riding on unlit roads, but my partner, whose
bike it is, prefers a battery rig.
> I don't mind going down the hub route rather than a bottle dynamo which
> I understand is less efficient.
If you're getting a dynamo definitely get a hub dynamo. Ones that run on
the tyre are noisy, high drag, prone to slip, untidy, wear out tyres and
are generally a nuisance.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Morning had broken, and there was nothing left for us to do
but pick up the pieces.
MSeries
I rode for over 100 km in Scotland in the dark on LEL with a SON powered
B&M Lumotec and D-toplight. IMHO the front light was better than my
riding partners EL500. I never notice the extra drag
Alan Braggins
>
>I don't mind going down the hub route rather than a bottle dynamo which
>I understand is less efficient.
>
>My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
>only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my
>EL300?
Even a cheapish bottle dynamo with a Lumotec light gives a better light
than an EL300 in my experience. (I'm considering upgrading to a hub dynamo.)
>Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above, but I
>would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo, presuming
>a B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
Best value, maybe. The more expensive SON E6 seems to be generally
regarded as a better light in absolute terms. There's also the
Luxeon LED based 1203D. (I haven't tried that, but have borrowed a
1303, and based on that would expect the 1203D to be better than many
lights. http://www.solidlights.co.uk/products/1203d.php)
(B&M do an LED lamp too, the D'Lumotec Topal - apparently it's better
than their bulb lamps at lower speeds, but not at higher speeds (though
unlikely to ever burn out, which bulbs will eventually).)
James Thomson
> Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather
> than a Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag,
> output?
> Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above,
> but I would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo,
> presuming a B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
> I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be
> cheaper over there? Off to investigate the .de sites now!
I've run a Shimano NX30 for about the last 5 years. The last time I opened
the bearings, they weren't in good shape, and I've relegated it to a spare
bike now. Considering the price, I have no complaints about its longevity,
but I replaced it with a Schmidt. If I were buying a dynohub now for more
than occasional use, I'd consider one of the fancier Shimano models which
claim to have better seals and bearings.
Any of the Shimano hubs that produce a nominal 6V 3W will drive two
headlamps in series. I'm happy enough with a pair of Lumotecs (both round,
one with a standlicht) that I haven't felt the need to invest in anything
more exotic.
Shimano has a new model out called the DH-3N30. Details on the Shimano
Europe website.
http://www.roseversand.de is the cheapest source of hub dynamos that I've
come across. They have all the Shimano models, and a number of lamps and
accessories.
http://www.bikecomponents.de stock the SON.
James Thomson
Chris Gerhard
> I know a lot has been written on the net about dynamo hubs, but is there
> any experience of them in this group?
>
> My daily commute of 24 miles each way sees me ride (at this time of
> year), about 40 minutes on completely un-lit, narrow country lanes. So
> far (past 2 years) I have managed with a Cateye EL300, twisted slightly
> to the left to pick out the white line of the road edge. However, the
> EL300 is not bright enough to warn me of any pot holes or debris in the
> road at my average speed of 29kph. I also find it needs re-charging
> after every 2 commutes to retain full power, what a pain. I NEED more
> light.
>
> I was originally going to buy a Nimh re-chargeable set, but I thought I
> would investigate dynamos first, even though I was dubious about their
> performance.
I upgraded from a re-chargeable setup to a SON with a Lumatech Oval Plus
lame and a 3W bulb and it was fine on unlit roads. When my commute
changed to be 21 miles each way on more major unlit roads with more
traffic it could not match the light from on coming cars. So I added an
E-6 secondary lamp and frankly it is fantastic. Commuting the sort of
distance you are I would highly recommend that set up.
I wrote both up on my blog last year.
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/chrisg?anchor=my_son_changed_my_life
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/chrisg?anchor=even_more_impressed_with_my
--chris
Arthur Clune
>
> My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
> only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my
> EL300?
Yes.
But...
At those speeds, you'd need two lights wired up to the dynamo to get
decent light output IMO. For that you need a Schmidt really.
By the time you've spent all that money, I'd just buy a Lumicycle
12W NiMH + smart charger set and keep the EL300 on the bike for
those times when the rechargables die.
Arthur
--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera
iakobski
>> secondary is my recommendation.
Can you expand on that please? I've just ordered SON generator + E6S +
E6Z - but it's not too late to change the order (he's ordered the hub
first to build the wheel onto).
And before anyone says "more money than sense", my car is so
inefficient that I will only have to commute 2400 km to have paid for
it in "saved petrol".
James Thomson
> At those speeds, you'd need two lights wired up to the dynamo
> to get decent light output IMO. For that you need a Schmidt really.
You really don't. A 30 euro Shimano NX30 will happily drive two headlamps.
That's not to say that Mark wouldn't get his money's worth from the
Schmidt.
James Thomson
Alan Braggins
>
>http://www.roseversand.de is the cheapest source of hub dynamos that I've
>come across. They have all the Shimano models, and a number of lamps and
>accessories.
>
>http://www.bikecomponents.de stock the SON.
Roseversand don't seem to have the new DH-3D71, only the 70.
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/
extremely_light_rotation.html
bikecomponents do list the DH-3N71, though with a photo that says DH-3N70.
In both cases prices seem to compare well with
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360014566
though I haven't checked shipping yet.
Clive George
news:1128330610.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> And before anyone says "more money than sense", my car is so
> inefficient that I will only have to commute 2400 km to have paid for
> it in "saved petrol".
More money than sense would be those supernova lights I saw in the wiggle
advert in the last issue of cycle. I saw those prices and thought 'eek'.
cheers,
clive
sothach
perfect for the long dark downhill stretches.
I've just changed from the Oval (broken when car knocked parked bike
over) to the Topal, which excellant in many ways, but could do with
some help away from the town.
-rory
Chris Gerhard
> Nice setup. Nearly the same as mine, I'll have to get the E6, sounds
> perfect for the long dark downhill stretches.
It is. One hill hill I descend on the way home I can top 40mph which in
the dark was more than a little too exciting without the E6Z. Now it is
just fine.
I just love riding in the dark now. I can see and am confident my
batteries won't run out.
--chris
Arthur Clune
>
> You really don't. A 30 euro Shimano NX30 will happily drive two headlamps.
I stand corrected.
Mark (MSA)
links.
I started off thinking rechargeables would provide better light,and be
the easier option, then I changed my mind to a B&M S6 bottle.
Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
provide more 'power right?).
So, back to the hub dynamo. I 'think' for now I will buy a Shimano,
run it for a while and see how I get on. Is the drag and the 'output
of the Shimano similar to the SON 28, or would I be losing out?
Keeping the price lower if possible (if it's false economy then please
tell me) which Shimano hub should I go for?
Guys comment "A B&M Lumotec as primary and a SON E6 headlight as
secondary is my recommendation" makes a lot of sense, any 'objections'
to this set up? :D
Thanks to Chris too for the Blog links, I think I will blame you for
making my mind up :-)
Don't usually ask so many questions, I can usually Google and find what
I want. Really don't know where I am with dynamos though, really glad
you guys are there to help...thanks a million.
So,
Shimano OK for now instead of SON, or bad move, false economy?
Lumotec primary and E6 secondary...cool?
You realise I will be back asking how to wire this little lot up!
Clive George
news:mn.1c797d5a2...@yahoo.co.uk...
> Shimano OK for now instead of SON, or bad move, false economy?
I've got an NX-10, which is afaik the first shimano dynohub, and was
notoriously inefficient. I hardly noticed it in real life, and the newer
ones are supposed to be a lot better.
I've also got a SON (actually three on various bikes), and yes, they are
shinier, but not really worth the extra.
(In which case why did I buy the other two? a) they're shinier, b) they're
european, c) they've got nicer bearings, d) they come in 28H (brompton), e)
I can afford it).
cheers,
clive
Chris Gerhard
>
> So, back to the hub dynamo. I 'think' for now I will buy a Shimano, run
> it for a while and see how I get on. Is the drag and the 'output of the
> Shimano similar to the SON 28, or would I be losing out?
>
You will be loosing out on owning a really great bit of art. The SON
just looks a feels great.
> Keeping the price lower if possible (if it's false economy then please
> tell me) which Shimano hub should I go for?
>
> Guys comment "A B&M Lumotec as primary and a SON E6 headlight as
> secondary is my recommendation" makes a lot of sense, any 'objections'
> to this set up? :D
>
> Thanks to Chris too for the Blog links, I think I will blame you for
> making my mind up :-)
I accept the blame, since I blame Guy for my SOM and my me'n'u2. I will
happily blame him with a few pints if we ever meet.
--chris
James Thomson
> Roseversand don't seem to have the new DH-3D71, only the 70.
>
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/extremely_light_rotation.html
Ah, I wasn't aware of the existence of the DH-3D71.
James Thomson
Simon Brooke
('onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk') wrote:
> Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
> provide more 'power right?).
Not necessarily. But they produce it in a reliable and fuss free fashion,
and are a lot neater.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists
Mark (MSA)
> ('onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk') wrote:
>
>> Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
>> provide more 'power right?).
>
> Not necessarily. But they produce it in a reliable and fuss free fashion,
> and are a lot neater.
So let's assume I want to use a double front light and no rear light.
Would a Shimano DH-3N71 hub do this better than a B&M S6? Aesthetics
aside for now.
Alan Braggins
>Wow, you guys really are something else! Great info, and some great
>links.
>
>I started off thinking rechargeables would provide better light,and be
>the easier option, then I changed my mind to a B&M S6 bottle.
>
>Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
>provide more 'power right?).
They have two advantages:
i) they are generally more efficient than bottle dynamos, so for the
same amount of light power you have to put in less pedal power
(though they both vary - a Dynotec S6 bottle dynamo will be as efficient
or more so than a cheaper hub dynamo).
ii) they can't slip unless the wheel actually skids, so by using two
lights at high speed (and putting twice as much work in), you can get
twice the light out. Most bottle dynamos can't handle that.
(B&M do do a 12V dynamo and light set (it won't work with standard
dynamo lights), but it costs more than a SON.)
Bottle dynamos have some advantages:
i) if you aren't using them, they have no drag at all, where even
the best hub dynamos have a little. If you hardly ever cycle in the
dark but want something that's ready whenever you do, a bottle might
be better for that reason.
ii) if you don't mind the lower efficiency, they can be cheaper.
iii) they work on tadpole trikes where fitting a hub dynamo would
be tricky or impossible.
>So, back to the hub dynamo. I 'think' for now I will buy a Shimano,
>run it for a while and see how I get on. Is the drag and the 'output
>of the Shimano similar to the SON 28, or would I be losing out?
>Keeping the price lower if possible (if it's false economy then please
>tell me) which Shimano hub should I go for?
How much you lose out depends which Shimano hub you go for.
IIRC Sheldon stopped selling the SON because he thought the DH-3N70
was very nearly as good for quite a lot less money. (The earliest
Shaimano hubs weren't as good.)
I've never seen a SON owner wishing they hadn't spent the extra money,
but nor have I seen a Shimano owner wishing they had.
If you like knowing you have the very best regardless of cost, go for
the SON. Otherwise I suspect the higher end Shimano would be fine.
(The low end Shimanos aren't _bad_, but if you are prepared to even
consider a SON, you probably want the better ones.)
m-gineering
>
> > in message <mn.1c797d5a2...@yahoo.co.uk>, Mark (MSA)
> > ('onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk') wrote:
> >
> >> Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
> >> provide more 'power right?).
> >
> > Not necessarily. But they produce it in a reliable and fuss free fashion,
> > and are a lot neater.
>
> So let's assume I want to use a double front light and no rear light.
>
> Would a Shimano DH-3N71 hub do this better than a B&M S6? Aesthetics
> aside for now.
>
yes, as the hubdynamo will not slip. To achieve the same with the S6 you
have to increase the pressure on the roller, which will hurt the
efficiency (and the tyre)
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl
Arthur Clune
> in message <mn.1c797d5a2...@yahoo.co.uk>, Mark (MSA)
> ('onyerb...@yahoo.co.uk') wrote:
>
>> Now I've read the last few posts, I really think I want a hub (they
>> provide more 'power right?).
>
> Not necessarily. But they produce it in a reliable and fuss free fashion,
> and are a lot neater.
What the main said. They are also far more 'fit and forget' than even the
best bottle dynamos. A very important feature for commuting. That's why I
use a hub dynamo for commuting anyway.
Just zis Guy, you know?
to the court as "iakobski" <goo...@handsonit.co.uk> made a statement
(<1128330610.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:
>>> A SON with a B&M Lumotec as primary and a SON E6 headlight as
>>> secondary is my recommendation.
>Can you expand on that please? I've just ordered SON generator + E6S +
>E6Z - but it's not too late to change the order (he's ordered the hub
>first to build the wheel onto).
The B&M has a standlight. You can use a cheap LED instead and have
two E6 headlights, but actually I quite like the coverage you get form
the two different beam patterns
>And before anyone says "more money than sense", my car is so
>inefficient that I will only have to commute 2400 km to have paid for
>it in "saved petrol".
As if anyone would accuse a SON buyer of having anything other than
exquisite taste!
Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
Zog The Undeniable
> My first question is, at 18-20mph, would the output from a front light
> only (will use battery on the rear) be significantly better than my EL300?
Lots and lots. I rode all night on the Dunwich Dynamo in July and never
had trouble seeing at any speed. It's amazing the way the dynamo lamp
lights up several hundred yards of cat's eyes, just like a car would.
The halogen lamp colour is also much better for seeing by. However
hi-tech the LEDs might look, a blue glow scatters more easily in mist
and adversely affects your night vision.
> Would I be better off paying the extra for a Schmidt hub rather than a
> Shimano? What's the difference, weight, quality, drag, output?
I have a Schmidt, but the answer is probably no. The Shimano is
*slightly* heavier and has *slightly* more drag.
> Guess I will wait to see if anyone has any comments on the above, but I
> would also like to know the best light to run off the dynamo, presuming
> a B&M fitted with a 3 watt bulb would be best?
The Schmidt E6, because of its tight focus, is noticeably superior to
the B&M Lumotecs (which use the same optics, oval or round). I don't
have experience of the new B&M LED dynamo lamp but it may be brighter
than the E6. I doubt it's as well focused though - you can only do that
with a small filament.
> I work in Germany frequently, I'm presuming this gear must be cheaper
> over there?
Oh yes.
sothach
> the B&M Lumotecs (which use the same optics, oval or round). I don't
> have experience of the new B&M LED dynamo lamp but it may be brighter
> than the E6. I doubt it's as well focused though - you can only do that
> with a small filament.
splash of light, which is nice, plus a great strobe effect at about
2kph as the main LED is switching in... I'm gonna fit a supplementary
E6Z, though.
-rory
Alan Braggins
>Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:00:55 +0200, James Thomson:
>Measurements by me and other people showed no substential difference in
>drag between both types. The only difference is a little more electrical
>power of the 71's at slow to medium speed.
I suspected Shimano's claims were exaggerated or misleading, but it's good
to hear actual measurements. Thanks. (But as someone who often travels
at a slow to medium speed, I might bother to go for the 71 anyway.)
>>S>resistance and the result is amazing: They have a 40 % lower rotation
>>S>friction than the current models (DH-3D70, DH-3N70 and DH-2N70) and
>
>The amount of mechanical *friction* is relative low.
[...]
>>S>even 75 % less resistance than previous models when the lamp is turned off!
>
>This is true (whithin measurement accuracy). The HB-NX32 takes up about
>8-9 Watt at 30 kmph when switched off.
>The SON28 has a no-load drag of around 1.5 Watt at 30 kmph.
I'd interpreted "previous models" as meaning the 70 range from the previous
sentence. I knew there was an earlier Shimano one that actually had more
drag when turned off at high speed. (I don't know the model number,
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html says "Inter-L", but you
probably do.)
Mark (MSA)
>
>> So let's assume I want to use a double front light and no rear light.
>>
>> Would a Shimano DH-3N71 hub do this better than a B&M S6?
>
> two 6V3W headlamps with it. The advantage of the S6 is lots of power
> output at low speeds, very good efficienye for a sidewall dynamo and the
> possibility to increase pressure force against the tire to reduce the
> likelyhood of slippage in wet conditions.
>
> Hub dynamos like DH-3N70/71 or SON28 will power two headlamps connected in
> series. Just using a conventional Lumotec as a secondary headlamp, it
> takes about 25 kmph in a 700c wheel to reach full brightness of both. With
> the E6-Z as secondary lamp about 18 km/h will be enough. Reason for the
> difference is the series-capacitor in the base of the E6-Z.
>
> Andreas
OK, I've made the decision, I'll be picking up a SON 28 next week!
I really want to run 2 front lamps, are you certain I do not have to go
for a specific secondary lamp such as the E6Z?...unless I want brighter
lamps at the lower speeds?
Great news if that's the case. So all I need to buy is 2 basic Lumotec
lamps, as long as they have switches built in?
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item1878.htm
I will need some advice on wiring these properly, but I shouldn't think
it's too much hassle?
Last decision is how to mount the lights. I would like something that
I can remove quickly at the end of my commute. My initial idea was to
mount both lights on a Minoura Spacegrip...but that's not exactly quick
to remove is it! Anyone seen something similar, or have any other
ideas on a quick release mount for 2 lamps (or 2 seperate ones)? My
other idea was to use the base of an old Cateye lamp I have, the QR
works well, perhaps I can mount a plate on top of the bottom piece of
the lamp and fix the Lumotecs to that.
When it's finished, I will provide photos and an accurate report on how
it works for my commute. Hope it's positive!
Clive George
> OK, I've made the decision, I'll be picking up a SON 28 next week!
>
> I really want to run 2 front lamps, are you certain I do not have to go
> for a specific secondary lamp such as the E6Z?...unless I want brighter
> lamps at the lower speeds?
>
> Great news if that's the case. So all I need to buy is 2 basic Lumotec
> lamps, as long as they have switches built in?
> http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item1878.htm
The switch in the basic lumotec is wired wrongly for the second lamp. You
need a switch in parallel with the lamp to short it out, not a switch in
series to let current flow at all. You might be able to disassemble the lamp
and rewire it internally, but I don't know how user-adaptable these are.
> I will need some advice on wiring these properly, but I shouldn't think
> it's too much hassle?
Wire from SON to first lamp with normal switch, out of that one to second
lamp with parallel switch, out of that to SON. Dead easy.
> Last decision is how to mount the lights. I would like something that I
> can remove quickly at the end of my commute. My initial idea was to mount
> both lights on a Minoura Spacegrip...but that's not exactly quick to
> remove is it! Anyone seen something similar, or have any other ideas on a
> quick release mount for 2 lamps (or 2 seperate ones)?
Nooo! It's a dynamo, the idea is everything is mounted permanently, nothing
to forget, no connectors to corrode. Use bolts and things to mount the
lamps. I'd probably mount them either side of the fork just beneath the
brakes, but that isn't terribly normal.
cheers,
clive
Mark (MSA)
> The switch in the basic lumotec is wired wrongly for the second lamp. You
> need a switch in parallel with the lamp to short it out, not a switch in
> series to let current flow at all. You might be able to disassemble the lamp
> and rewire it internally, but I don't know how user-adaptable these are.
I'n not too hot on this but... If I wasn't bothered about turning off
the secondary lamp (i.e., run 2 or nothing) couldn't I just leave the
second lamp switch on all the time (or buy an unswtiched one), and
virtually treat it as if it was a back light?
>
>
> Nooo! It's a dynamo, the idea is everything is mounted permanently, nothing
> to forget
>
:-)
I get where your coming from, but 1) I wouldn't feel happy leaving it
on there if I bike into London, and 2) my commute bike is also my
Winter training bike and...oh, I guess that's not really a reason!
Pete Biggs
> Last decision is how to mount the lights. I would like something that
> I can remove quickly at the end of my commute. My initial idea was to
> mount both lights on a Minoura Spacegrip...but that's not exactly
> quick to remove is it!
It only takes two minutes to undo the retaining screws and slide the front
half off, leaving the stub on the handlebar. Or half that time if only
one screw is used (one seems to be adequate since they don't take the
weight). An allen-key screws makes it even easier. I take mine off when
going for a quick daytime spin. It might even be possible to make some
kind of quick release skewer for it.
But I understand dynamo users usually leave their lamps permanently bolted
to the bike. I did with the old lamp I used to have mounted on the forks.
Not too easy to nick.
~PB
mark
> OK, I've made the decision, I'll be picking up a SON 28 next week!
>
> I really want to run 2 front lamps, are you certain I do not have to go
> for a specific secondary lamp such as the E6Z?...unless I want brighter
> lamps at the lower speeds?
>
lamp (more light at low speeds, like up a hill) and running 2 lamps in
series (uses any excess dynamo output, 2nd lamp has different optics for a
longer beam).
> Great news if that's the case. So all I need to buy is 2 basic Lumotec
> lamps, as long as they have switches built in?
> http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item1878.htm
I would suggest 1 Lumotec with a standlight to use all the time , 1 E6Z as a
secondary. As I understand it, the Lumotec beam is not as tightly focussed
as the E6, illuminating a wider area immediately in front of you and letting
motorists see you from a wider range of angles. The E6Z has a more tightly
focussed beam which will reach a longer distance, for travel at higher
speeds. The E6Z is designed to operate in series with a primary, when you
shut it off the current is sent straight through as if there were only one
lamp in the circuit.
>
> I will need some advice on wiring these properly, but I shouldn't think
> it's too much hassle?
>
> Last decision is how to mount the lights. I would like something that I
> can remove quickly at the end of my commute. My initial idea was to mount
> both lights on a Minoura Spacegrip...but that's not exactly quick to
> remove is it! Anyone seen something similar, or have any other ideas on a
> quick release mount for 2 lamps (or 2 seperate ones)? My other idea was
> to use the base of an old Cateye lamp I have, the QR works well, perhaps I
> can mount a plate on top of the bottom piece of the lamp and fix the
> Lumotecs to that.
>
The Lumotecs come with a bracket to mount the lamp at the fork crown, which
is where mine is. If you have caliper brakes the bracket will mount onto the
bolt attaching the front brake and front fender/mudguard to the fork. If you
have cantilever brakes you use a different bracket but attach the light to
the same point. Both brackets are supplied. Some people mount the secondary
light on the fork blade, just high enough to reach the switch easily. The
fork crown mounting point works really well, it puts the light right where I
want it. If you really needed to remove the lights quickly at the end of
your commute you could probably carry an Allen wrench , unbolt the lights
and disconnect the wires and leave the brackets attached.
--
mark
Clive George
> >
>> The switch in the basic lumotec is wired wrongly for the second lamp. You
>> need a switch in parallel with the lamp to short it out, not a switch in
>> series to let current flow at all. You might be able to disassemble the
>> lamp and rewire it internally, but I don't know how user-adaptable these
>> are.
>
> I'n not too hot on this but... If I wasn't bothered about turning off
> the secondary lamp (i.e., run 2 or nothing) couldn't I just leave the
> second lamp switch on all the time (or buy an unswtiched one), and
> virtually treat it as if it was a back light?
Depends on how fast you go. If you turn the second lamp on when you're going
too slowly, neither lamp will give much output whereas a single one would
work. I don't know the cutoff speed when the second one starts to work well,
but it's higher than the speed I climb some hills, or possibly more relevant
to you, than the speed you can drop to while manoevring in traffic.
>> Nooo! It's a dynamo, the idea is everything is mounted permanently,
>> nothing to forget
>>
> :-)
>
> I get where your coming from, but 1) I wouldn't feel happy leaving it on
> there if I bike into London, and 2) my commute bike is also my Winter
> training bike and...oh, I guess that's not really a reason!
Vandalism or theft? The former is a reason, I wouldn't worry about the
latter - dynamos are deeply unfashionable. Do you remove your derailleur
when you park? It's about as easy to remove...
cheers,
clive
Chris Gerhard
>
> Depends on how fast you go. If you turn the second lamp on when you're going
> too slowly, neither lamp will give much output whereas a single one would
> work. I don't know the cutoff speed when the second one starts to work well,
> but it's higher than the speed I climb some hills, or possibly more relevant
> to you, than the speed you can drop to while manoevring in traffic.
>
For me it is 10mph, but oddly (recall I have a B&M oval plus) when I
slow the led on the oval plus comes on and the secondary lamp just works
perfectly. It could be cooking the electronics in the oval plus but
since I very rarely drop this slow on my commute I've not concerned
myself with this.
--chris
James Thomson
> I would like something that I can remove quickly at the end of my
> commute. My initial idea was to mount both lights on a Minoura
> Spacegrip...but that's not exactly quick to remove is it! Anyone
> seen something similar, or have any other ideas on a quick
> release mount for 2 lamps (or 2 seperate ones)?
I've uploaded a few pictures of my old system (NX30 with two Lumotecs) that
I set up to be quickly removable. It's all a bit rough and ready, and
apologies for the picture quality.
http://jamesthomson.fotopic.net/c714540.html
I made the spacegrip from a piece of old mtb handlebar and one of the
clamps from a pair of Cinelli Spinaci. The lights are mounted on short
brackets attached to Vistalite quick-release clamps with a short bolt and
nylock nut:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=1637
(The price has doubled since I bought mine)
It all comes off in about five seconds.
The big advantage is that the beams can be directed on the fly by rotating
the Vista clamps around the bar, and by pivoting the brackets on the
clamps. They can be set to overlap to give more light in one spot,
separated to give a broader pool of light, or one in front of the other to
illuminate further ahead at higher speeds.
The grotty Monoprix bag was both rain cover and theft deterrent.
There were no switches in this setup: both lights were on all the time,
night and day.
If you wanted to be really smart, maybe you could engineer some kind of
"hot shoe" attachment.
James Thomson
Alan Braggins
>> the secondary lamp (i.e., run 2 or nothing) couldn't I just leave the
>> second lamp switch on all the time (or buy an unswtiched one), and
>> virtually treat it as if it was a back light?
>
>Depends on how fast you go. If you turn the second lamp on when you're going
>too slowly, neither lamp will give much output whereas a single one would
>work. I don't know the cutoff speed when the second one starts to work well,
>but it's higher than the speed I climb some hills, or possibly more relevant
>to you, than the speed you can drop to while manoevring in traffic.
Which _might_ not be a problem if all the manoevring in traffic is in
streetlit areas. Either a D'Lumotec LED primary or a E6-Z secondary
might reduce the problem.
Or use a battery LED light as backup/standlight/low speed light, giving
you something you can easily take off the bike to use as a torch to change
a puncture or to change a bulb in the dynamo lights. Though then you lose
some of the "always there, no charging to remember" advantage of the
dynamo system.
Just zis Guy, you know?
known to the court as "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> made a
statement (<4342abed$0$73617$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net> in
Your Honour's bundle) to the following effect:
>The switch in the basic lumotec is wired wrongly for the second lamp. You
>need a switch in parallel with the lamp to short it out, not a switch in
>series to let current flow at all. You might be able to disassemble the lamp
>and rewire it internally, but I don't know how user-adaptable these are.
I wouldn't bother - you want the switch near at hand anyway.
I'd recommend the Lumotec as a primary and an E6 as secondary. The
combination of the two beam patterns is useful (IMO) and the SON lamp
has better optics for distance, while the B&M is somewhat better for
close-up (again IMO). Plus the Lumotec has a standlight and the E6
does not.