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Bust frame
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Ian Jackson
Oct 21, 2019, 7:34:58 AM10/21/19
to
My 12yo Thorn Audax mk3 has (apparently[1]) a 1" crack at the bottom
bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to me,
not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there some
time and they say there is some corrosion.
:-/
Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
replace the bike with ?
[1] Phone call from bike shop just now; I've not seen it myself yet.
--
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to me,
not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there some
time and they say there is some corrosion.
:-/
Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
replace the bike with ?
[1] Phone call from bike shop just now; I've not seen it myself yet.
--
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Tosspot
Oct 21, 2019, 2:39:20 PM10/21/19
to
On 21/10/2019 13:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
> My 12yo Thorn Audax mk3 has (apparently[1]) a 1" crack at the bottom
> bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to
> me, not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there
> some time and they say there is some corrosion.
>
> :-/
>
> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
> replace the bike with ?
Marginal, depending on how the frame looks and after welding, how it
> My 12yo Thorn Audax mk3 has (apparently[1]) a 1" crack at the bottom
> bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to
> me, not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there
> some time and they say there is some corrosion.
>
> :-/
>
> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
> replace the bike with ?
would look. They seem to be good mid-range frames, so...
Another Thorn Audax mk3?
Ian Jackson
Oct 28, 2019, 12:10:07 PM10/28/19
to
In article <-KKdnTwm9sjUZjDA...@giganews.com>,
[...] Lot of work and I could see this job coming in around L750.00
with frame fittings, transfers & postage". (formatting mine)
Mercian didn't provide an overall total and were less confident in
their assessment of what was needed, based on my photos. But based on
their email, and their website pricelist, it's clear it's going to be
at least about as much as a new frame.
>Another Thorn Audax mk3?
I did really like the bike. I don't blame it for breaking, really.
It's probably something (or several things) I did to it. Despite
that, having thought how I feel about it, I don't think I want to
replace it with a sturdier heavier bike.
It looks like Thorn sell a frameset for L450 or so. Meanwhile my
trustworthy sort-of-local bike shop say stripping everything and
building it onto a new frame is L90-L120 of labour.
So I think that is my current plan.
Tosspot <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 21/10/2019 13:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
>> replace the bike with ?
>
>Marginal, depending on how the frame looks and after welding, how it
>would look. They seem to be good mid-range frames, so...
Bob Jackson cycles: "You are looking at new seat tube and down tube
>On 21/10/2019 13:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should I
>> replace the bike with ?
>
>Marginal, depending on how the frame looks and after welding, how it
>would look. They seem to be good mid-range frames, so...
[...] Lot of work and I could see this job coming in around L750.00
with frame fittings, transfers & postage". (formatting mine)
Mercian didn't provide an overall total and were less confident in
their assessment of what was needed, based on my photos. But based on
their email, and their website pricelist, it's clear it's going to be
at least about as much as a new frame.
>Another Thorn Audax mk3?
I did really like the bike. I don't blame it for breaking, really.
It's probably something (or several things) I did to it. Despite
that, having thought how I feel about it, I don't think I want to
replace it with a sturdier heavier bike.
It looks like Thorn sell a frameset for L450 or so. Meanwhile my
trustworthy sort-of-local bike shop say stripping everything and
building it onto a new frame is L90-L120 of labour.
So I think that is my current plan.
Tosspot
Oct 28, 2019, 3:16:32 PM10/28/19
to
On 28/10/2019 16:01, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In article <-KKdnTwm9sjUZjDA...@giganews.com>, Tosspot
> <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21/10/2019 13:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should
>>> I replace the bike with ?
>>
>> Marginal, depending on how the frame looks and after welding, how
>> it would look. They seem to be good mid-range frames, so...
>
> Bob Jackson cycles: "You are looking at new seat tube and down tube
> [...] Lot of work and I could see this job coming in around L750.00
> with frame fittings, transfers & postage". (formatting mine)
>
> Mercian didn't provide an overall total and were less confident in
> their assessment of what was needed, based on my photos. But based
> on their email, and their website pricelist, it's clear it's going to
> be at least about as much as a new frame.
>
>> Another Thorn Audax mk3?
>
> I did really like the bike. I don't blame it for breaking, really.
> It's probably something (or several things) I did to it. Despite
> that, having thought how I feel about it, I don't think I want to
> replace it with a sturdier heavier bike.
>
> It looks like Thorn sell a frameset for L450 or so. Meanwhile my
> trustworthy sort-of-local bike shop say stripping everything and
> building it onto a new frame is L90-L120 of labour.
>
> So I think that is my current plan.
Surely Sir buys the new frame-set and moves everything across himself?
> In article <-KKdnTwm9sjUZjDA...@giganews.com>, Tosspot
> <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21/10/2019 13:34, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> Should I try to have a framebuilder fix it ? If not what should
>>> I replace the bike with ?
>>
>> Marginal, depending on how the frame looks and after welding, how
>> it would look. They seem to be good mid-range frames, so...
>
> Bob Jackson cycles: "You are looking at new seat tube and down tube
> [...] Lot of work and I could see this job coming in around L750.00
> with frame fittings, transfers & postage". (formatting mine)
>
> Mercian didn't provide an overall total and were less confident in
> their assessment of what was needed, based on my photos. But based
> on their email, and their website pricelist, it's clear it's going to
> be at least about as much as a new frame.
>
>> Another Thorn Audax mk3?
>
> I did really like the bike. I don't blame it for breaking, really.
> It's probably something (or several things) I did to it. Despite
> that, having thought how I feel about it, I don't think I want to
> replace it with a sturdier heavier bike.
>
> It looks like Thorn sell a frameset for L450 or so. Meanwhile my
> trustworthy sort-of-local bike shop say stripping everything and
> building it onto a new frame is L90-L120 of labour.
>
> So I think that is my current plan.
That way Sir finds out what's borked that he previously didn't know
about :-)
Ian Jackson
Oct 29, 2019, 7:45:07 AM10/29/19
to
In article <NbidnVqVwuAfoyrA...@giganews.com>,
Yers. I think it's worth at least L100 for me not to spend all
weekend frowning at pieces of bike. My record with the trickier bits
of repair is not particularly good. I think my worst is that time I
did something to a bottom bracket: it lasted a week, and then
disintegrated in use, ejecting bearing balls everywhere.
I'll do the wiring myself. *That* I can do better than the shop. And
I will make it look tattier and more alarming than the shop would :-).
Thorn say the new frame will be with me within 48h and the work is
booked in at the shop for middle of next week. That makes this
approach considerably faster than most of the other options.
I rejected "spend L250 on a low-end off-the-shelf bike", since I
wouldn't really want such a bike. And I doubt a L250 bike would last
a year, the way I treat them. More expensive off-the-shelf bikes all
seem to be insane aluminium and carbon confections.
Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
weekend frowning at pieces of bike. My record with the trickier bits
of repair is not particularly good. I think my worst is that time I
did something to a bottom bracket: it lasted a week, and then
disintegrated in use, ejecting bearing balls everywhere.
I'll do the wiring myself. *That* I can do better than the shop. And
I will make it look tattier and more alarming than the shop would :-).
Thorn say the new frame will be with me within 48h and the work is
booked in at the shop for middle of next week. That makes this
approach considerably faster than most of the other options.
I rejected "spend L250 on a low-end off-the-shelf bike", since I
wouldn't really want such a bike. And I doubt a L250 bike would last
a year, the way I treat them. More expensive off-the-shelf bikes all
seem to be insane aluminium and carbon confections.
Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
Nick Maclaren
Oct 29, 2019, 7:53:39 AM10/29/19
to
In article <+0i*XL...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>I rejected "spend L250 on a low-end off-the-shelf bike", since I
>wouldn't really want such a bike. And I doubt a L250 bike would last
>a year, the way I treat them. More expensive off-the-shelf bikes all
>seem to be insane aluminium and carbon confections.
Unless you go for the sort of bicycle I favour :-)
>
>I rejected "spend L250 on a low-end off-the-shelf bike", since I
>wouldn't really want such a bike. And I doubt a L250 bike would last
>a year, the way I treat them. More expensive off-the-shelf bikes all
>seem to be insane aluminium and carbon confections.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Tosspot
Oct 29, 2019, 2:11:44 PM10/29/19
to
are a bit of a pain unless you have the tools, so actually, 100 squids
is a good price. Hmmm...new frame...been what, two years since I bought
one? <fires up some stupidly expensive Ti frame shop browser> Ah yes,
Demon frames...
Zebee Johnstone
Oct 29, 2019, 3:42:02 PM10/29/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on 29 Oct 2019 11:43:02 +0000 (GMT)
that's a famous creaker as it wears out. Which they do.
Zebee
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
> it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
If B is Brompton due you still have the folding pedal? If so then
>
> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
> it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
that's a famous creaker as it wears out. Which they do.
Zebee
Zebee Johnstone
Oct 29, 2019, 3:44:01 PM10/29/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:53:21 -0000 (UTC)
Can't get a frame of the ones I favour for as little as 250 squids,
never mind 250 Pacific Pesos.
I might start looking again because while I do like the Encore the
trike has won me over to the joys of under seat steering and I am
wondering what is out there in lightish but can take a rack underseat
steering for the short of leg.
Zebee
never mind 250 Pacific Pesos.
I might start looking again because while I do like the Encore the
trike has won me over to the joys of under seat steering and I am
wondering what is out there in lightish but can take a rack underseat
steering for the short of leg.
Zebee
Ian Jackson
Oct 30, 2019, 12:52:11 PM10/30/19
to
In article <+0i*XL...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Thorn say the new frame will be with me within 48h and the work is
>booked in at the shop for middle of next week. That makes this
>approach considerably faster than most of the other options.
New frame arrived today. At least that's what the big box marked
>booked in at the shop for middle of next week. That makes this
>approach considerably faster than most of the other options.
Thorn is, I hope. It doesn't feel like it weighs anything. Maybe
they forgot to actually put the frame in it ? :-)
My first opportunity to get it home and unpack it will be this coming
Tuesday.
Ian Jackson
Oct 30, 2019, 12:52:11 PM10/30/19
to
In article <slrnqrh5fp...@gmail.com>,
at all. I had my partner push down on the pedal (pushing down firmly
on either pedel at horizontal-forwards, with the brake held firm,
reproduced it) and hunted it by ear and eye. It was coming from
somewhere near the seatpost end of the rear triangle. I peered at it
all in detail. Nothing to be seen; some minor paintwork damage.
But now that I am writing this I realise that this morning I cycled to
work on it and didn't notice any creak. This is either because it's
fixed (oil eventually penetrated I guess), or because I had a 2nd
pannier strapped on top of the rear rack, and that changed the loading
somehow.
>If B is Brompton due you still have the folding pedal? If so then
>that's a famous creaker as it wears out. Which they do.
Yes, I do still have the folding pedal. Indeed they wear out. My
last one failed completely this summer, on arrival in central Dublin
for the World Science Fiction convention, happily after I had cycled
from the port into town.
I was able to find (with a bit of trouble) a shop with a replacement
and not lose too much time. Eur50, though! Brompton stuff is dear.
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on 29 Oct 2019 11:43:02 +0000 (GMT)
>Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
>> it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
I oiled it last night and it didn't immediately seem to help much if
>In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on 29 Oct 2019 11:43:02 +0000 (GMT)
>Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I think
>> it's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.
at all. I had my partner push down on the pedal (pushing down firmly
on either pedel at horizontal-forwards, with the brake held firm,
reproduced it) and hunted it by ear and eye. It was coming from
somewhere near the seatpost end of the rear triangle. I peered at it
all in detail. Nothing to be seen; some minor paintwork damage.
But now that I am writing this I realise that this morning I cycled to
work on it and didn't notice any creak. This is either because it's
fixed (oil eventually penetrated I guess), or because I had a 2nd
pannier strapped on top of the rear rack, and that changed the loading
somehow.
>If B is Brompton due you still have the folding pedal? If so then
>that's a famous creaker as it wears out. Which they do.
last one failed completely this summer, on arrival in central Dublin
for the World Science Fiction convention, happily after I had cycled
from the port into town.
I was able to find (with a bit of trouble) a shop with a replacement
and not lose too much time. Eur50, though! Brompton stuff is dear.
Biggles
Nov 4, 2019, 12:45:51 PM11/4/19
to
ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Ian Jackson) Wrote in message:
> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I thinkit's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.--
I had a creak which seemed to vary with pedal load - greased the
rear suspension bush and the creak disappeared.
--
Biggles
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I thinkit's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.--
I had a creak which seemed to vary with pedal load - greased the
rear suspension bush and the creak disappeared.
--
Biggles
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Ian Jackson
Nov 5, 2019, 9:44:13 AM11/5/19
to
In article <qpfu7o$j45$1...@dont-email.me>,
of the oil got near the bush...
Biggles <news...@the-shillings.net> wrote:
>ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Ian Jackson) Wrote in message:
>> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I
>thinkit's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.--
>
>I had a creak which seemed to vary with pedal load - greased the
> rear suspension bush and the creak disappeared.
I was just on the B. again and it is no longer creaking. Perhaps some
>ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Ian Jackson) Wrote in message:
>> Meanwhile the B. has developed an alarming sounding creak but I
>thinkit's just the hinge. I will see if oiling it helps.--
>
>I had a creak which seemed to vary with pedal load - greased the
> rear suspension bush and the creak disappeared.
of the oil got near the bush...
Ian Jackson
Nov 7, 2019, 11:39:48 AM11/7/19
to
In article <YXt*al...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
By late afternoon they were already phoning up with the list of other
things that are shot (freehub, which I knew about; but actually the
whole rear wheel; cassette; chain; and some sundries). Not really
surprising to me since I haven't had any new transmission bits for
many months :-) and I knew the rear wheel had ... problems. But I'm
looking at well over L200 for the work and parts.
Still, the whole thing is going to come in well under half the price
of a new bike and the thing is going to be more-than-half new when I'm
done.
This all makes me think I can probably afford a "summerish" bike for
longer rides in good weather, since if my expenditure is due to me
wearing everything out anyway I wouldn't wear out stuff on two bikes
any faster than I would on one and the capital cost is not that big a
part of it...
Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
and have a nasty crash.
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>New frame arrived today. At least that's what the big box marked
>Thorn is, I hope. It doesn't feel like it weighs anything. Maybe
>they forgot to actually put the frame in it ? :-)
My not-quite-local bike shop got everything on Wednesday lunchtime.
>New frame arrived today. At least that's what the big box marked
>Thorn is, I hope. It doesn't feel like it weighs anything. Maybe
>they forgot to actually put the frame in it ? :-)
By late afternoon they were already phoning up with the list of other
things that are shot (freehub, which I knew about; but actually the
whole rear wheel; cassette; chain; and some sundries). Not really
surprising to me since I haven't had any new transmission bits for
many months :-) and I knew the rear wheel had ... problems. But I'm
looking at well over L200 for the work and parts.
Still, the whole thing is going to come in well under half the price
of a new bike and the thing is going to be more-than-half new when I'm
done.
This all makes me think I can probably afford a "summerish" bike for
longer rides in good weather, since if my expenditure is due to me
wearing everything out anyway I wouldn't wear out stuff on two bikes
any faster than I would on one and the capital cost is not that big a
part of it...
Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
and have a nasty crash.
Alan Braggins
Nov 8, 2019, 8:33:47 PM11/8/19
to
On 2019-11-07, Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
> I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
> and have a nasty crash.
For a classic look from a local company, how about
> Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
> I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
> and have a nasty crash.
https://www.thelightblue.co.uk/Sport/FMLBK53B/Kings-Frameset ?
Complete bike:
https://www.thelightblue.co.uk/Sport/5LB5KZ56B/Kings-Potenza
My understanding is that aluminium frames aren't made as light as the
lightest most expensive carbon frames, but lower price carbon frames
are at least roughly comparable in weight with comparably priced aluminium
frames.
Cheapest titanium frame (short of importing direct from China yourself) maybe
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s143p2372/SPA-CYCLES-Ti-Audax-Frame-Only
but apparently it's very little weight saving compared with their steel
version.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s143p2828/SPA-CYCLES-Steel-Audax-Frame-and-Forks
(A couple of co-workers have the steel Spa Audax, and are happy with them,
but it wouldn't be an upgrade/"nice" bike compared with the Thorn you already
have.)
Tosspot
Nov 9, 2019, 5:12:32 AM11/9/19
to
Nick Maclaren
Nov 9, 2019, 5:34:17 AM11/9/19
to
In article <slrnqsb13...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
titanium frames come in at about the same weight and durability,
because ALL are brittle materials compared with milder steels. They
have different failure modes, of course, but none are resilient against
things like crashes. Older aluminium was complete crap, of course.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>On 2019-11-07, Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
>> I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
>> and have a nasty crash.
>
>On 2019-11-07, Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Do they make lightweight metal-framed road bikes any more ?
>> I definitely don't want a carbon concoction; I would surely break it
>> and have a nasty crash.
>
>My understanding is that aluminium frames aren't made as light as the
>lightest most expensive carbon frames, but lower price carbon frames
>are at least roughly comparable in weight with comparably priced aluminium
>frames.
>
>Cheapest titanium frame (short of importing direct from China yourself) maybe
My understanding is that all of the lightweight steel, aluminium and
>lightest most expensive carbon frames, but lower price carbon frames
>are at least roughly comparable in weight with comparably priced aluminium
>frames.
>
>Cheapest titanium frame (short of importing direct from China yourself) maybe
titanium frames come in at about the same weight and durability,
because ALL are brittle materials compared with milder steels. They
have different failure modes, of course, but none are resilient against
things like crashes. Older aluminium was complete crap, of course.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Ian Jackson
Nov 14, 2019, 5:31:40 PM11/14/19
to
In article <x0z*Vx...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
that's quite nice. It rides like a new bike. (I suppose it jolly
well should since well >50% of it is new.) I'm hoping it will get
tatty-looking soon - very important in Cambridge...
Thorn were quick and useful and competent; Rutland Cycles in Histon
were their usual competent selves (only minor snags, one or two of
which are to be expected in what was basically a complete bike build).
But I really want to give a plug for Bob Jackson. Donald at Bob
Jackson cycles looked at my photos[1] and gave me a very candid
assessment of what would be needed and the likely total bill. That
was extremely helpful to me.
It was not really in their interests as the repair was going to be
quite a bit dearer. They could have been vague, and said "we'll have
to see when we've blasted it", and referred to their online pricelist.
Another framebuilder did that, giving me quite a different impression
of the likely bill - even though the Bob Jackson's actual online price
list is very comparable. I think I would have been unpleasantly
surprised by the other framebuilder's ultimate bill, if I had decided
to try that route.
So Bob Jackson didn't get my business on this occasion, through being
honest. If I ever have the LLLL to spend on a custom frame, they'll
be top of my list. And if you have a dearer bike than mine, and want
it repaired, Bob Jackson Cycles should be top of your list too.
[1] https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/2019/frame-crack/
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>My 12yo Thorn Audax mk3 has (apparently[1]) a 1" crack at the bottom
>bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to me,
>not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there some
>time and they say there is some corrosion.
I now have the completely rebuilt bike. It's blue instead of BRG but
>My 12yo Thorn Audax mk3 has (apparently[1]) a 1" crack at the bottom
>bracket, in the weld where 3 tubes meet. (This is probably due to me,
>not due to any kind of manufacturing defect.) It's been there some
>time and they say there is some corrosion.
that's quite nice. It rides like a new bike. (I suppose it jolly
well should since well >50% of it is new.) I'm hoping it will get
tatty-looking soon - very important in Cambridge...
Thorn were quick and useful and competent; Rutland Cycles in Histon
were their usual competent selves (only minor snags, one or two of
which are to be expected in what was basically a complete bike build).
But I really want to give a plug for Bob Jackson. Donald at Bob
Jackson cycles looked at my photos[1] and gave me a very candid
assessment of what would be needed and the likely total bill. That
was extremely helpful to me.
It was not really in their interests as the repair was going to be
quite a bit dearer. They could have been vague, and said "we'll have
to see when we've blasted it", and referred to their online pricelist.
Another framebuilder did that, giving me quite a different impression
of the likely bill - even though the Bob Jackson's actual online price
list is very comparable. I think I would have been unpleasantly
surprised by the other framebuilder's ultimate bill, if I had decided
to try that route.
So Bob Jackson didn't get my business on this occasion, through being
honest. If I ever have the LLLL to spend on a custom frame, they'll
be top of my list. And if you have a dearer bike than mine, and want
it repaired, Bob Jackson Cycles should be top of your list too.
[1] https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/2019/frame-crack/
Guy Gadboit
Nov 16, 2019, 12:44:15 PM11/16/19
to
Interesting failure. Although water can collect in that part of the frame I suspect a welding defect as the crack seems to have started on the junction and actually spread to two tubes.
The new frame sounds like good value although I'm surprised they don't have a lifetime warranty. Trek charge about £750 for their Chinese made CrMo touring frames but replaced mine for free without a quibble after 10 years.
I agree with Bob Jackson's assessment but there are always repair options. You could grind the cracks out and fill them with silicon bronze. It wouldn't be as strong as a (defect-free) new frame but would probably last quite a few years.
The new frame sounds like good value although I'm surprised they don't have a lifetime warranty. Trek charge about £750 for their Chinese made CrMo touring frames but replaced mine for free without a quibble after 10 years.
I agree with Bob Jackson's assessment but there are always repair options. You could grind the cracks out and fill them with silicon bronze. It wouldn't be as strong as a (defect-free) new frame but would probably last quite a few years.
Guy Gadboit
Nov 16, 2019, 12:44:54 PM11/16/19
to
Reynolds 525, Columbus Cromor and Zona are all non-heat-treated cromoly and are pretty ductile (as well as being very strong). I don't know the ductility of Reynolds 631 but it's probably similar. These tubes are available in a range of thicknesses so you can make a very durable frame. But even a heat-treated 853 frame with very thin walls won't explode underneath you the way a carbon frame might.
Nick Maclaren
Nov 16, 2019, 1:38:21 PM11/16/19
to
In article <82297560-4958-462a...@googlegroups.com>,
>Reynolds 525, Columbus Cromor and Zona are all non-heat-treated cromoly
>and are pretty ductile (as well as being very strong). I don't know the
>ductility of Reynolds 631 but it's probably similar. These tubes are
>available in a range of thicknesses so you can make a very durable
>frame. But even a heat-treated 853 frame with very thin walls won't
>explode underneath you the way a carbon frame might.
Perhaps I should have expanded, because the relevent properties are
not simple brittleness/ductility. It is also whether they 'weaken'
with heating and whether they work-harden in such a way as to reduce
cracks propagating.
I have seen such a failure with mild steel, even when it has been
repeatedly abused, unless the weld was defective in the first place
(and then you can tell where the defect was, because the good steel
breaks by essentially tearing. To a good first approximation, it
is close to immune to crack propagation.
I agree that fibre-reinforced resin is a ghastly idea, whether it
uses glass or carbon, much like aluminium was some decades back.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Guy Gadboit <benc....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> My understanding is that all of the lightweight steel, aluminium and
>> titanium frames come in at about the same weight and durability,
>> because ALL are brittle materials compared with milder steels. They
>> have different failure modes, of course, but none are resilient against
>> things like crashes. Older aluminium was complete crap, of course.
>
>Lightweight steel frames are mostly cromoly which has similar ductility
>to mild steel unless you heat-treat it (which does trade ductility for
>strength).
Even brazing heat treats it to some extent, welding more so.
>>
>> My understanding is that all of the lightweight steel, aluminium and
>> titanium frames come in at about the same weight and durability,
>> because ALL are brittle materials compared with milder steels. They
>> have different failure modes, of course, but none are resilient against
>> things like crashes. Older aluminium was complete crap, of course.
>
>Lightweight steel frames are mostly cromoly which has similar ductility
>to mild steel unless you heat-treat it (which does trade ductility for
>strength).
>Reynolds 525, Columbus Cromor and Zona are all non-heat-treated cromoly
>and are pretty ductile (as well as being very strong). I don't know the
>ductility of Reynolds 631 but it's probably similar. These tubes are
>available in a range of thicknesses so you can make a very durable
>frame. But even a heat-treated 853 frame with very thin walls won't
>explode underneath you the way a carbon frame might.
not simple brittleness/ductility. It is also whether they 'weaken'
with heating and whether they work-harden in such a way as to reduce
cracks propagating.
I have seen such a failure with mild steel, even when it has been
repeatedly abused, unless the weld was defective in the first place
(and then you can tell where the defect was, because the good steel
breaks by essentially tearing. To a good first approximation, it
is close to immune to crack propagation.
I agree that fibre-reinforced resin is a ghastly idea, whether it
uses glass or carbon, much like aluminium was some decades back.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Shahryar
Nov 16, 2019, 4:24:24 PM11/16/19
to
AIUI this is because aluminium suffers from a fatigue limit problem such that even small stress cycles lead to damage, whereas for steel and carbon there is an endurance limit below which small loading cycles do not cause damage.
The upshot is that stress from pedalling causes fatigue in the aluminium tubes leading into the bottom bracket, and eventual failure. Sure, they could solve this by using thicker tubes but as of 7 years ago they were still prioritizing weight over long life.
See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit>
Guy Gadboit
Nov 16, 2019, 7:56:06 PM11/16/19
to
A certain amount of ductility is desirable in its own right as it means you get some prior warning of failure. But probably any steel frame is OK for this.
As for fatigue life mild steel is great but I believe CrMo does also have a "fatigue limit" (a stress level below which the fatigue life is infinite). I think there's no reason why a welded CrMo frame shouldn't last for ever although not all do.
You are correct that there is some heat treating that goes on in the heat affected zone with some bits actually getting stronger (but probably less ductile) and other bits weaker depending on the distance from the weld. It's partly because of this that the tubes are butted (thicker at the ends). This is also an area that Reynolds claim to have improved with their 631/853 tubes even going so far as to say that the welds make them stronger (but if so why do we still need butting?). Columbus look like they're going down a similar route with their new "omnicrom" alloy.
OP's failure looked like fatigue starting at the weld, the same as happened on my Trek (although that was at the DT/HT junction). The weld is usually made with a mild steel filler rod anyway, and the cause of failure is likely to be that there's some defect in it that's causing a concentration of stress.
No idea what that defect was but one observation is that the failure on the OP's frame started at the only place on the whole frame where you're welding thin to thin. On a TIG frame the HT is usually about 1.2mm thick, the BB shell 2mm or more, and the top of the ST about 1.2. The ends of all the other tubes are 0.8mm or so (maybe 0.9mm on a tourer) and the only place they meet is that awkward region where the DT intersects the bottom of the ST. It's very easy to blow a little hole here and if you don't quite fill it in right you might end up with a small section that's really thin that could lead to problems like this down the line.
As for fatigue life mild steel is great but I believe CrMo does also have a "fatigue limit" (a stress level below which the fatigue life is infinite). I think there's no reason why a welded CrMo frame shouldn't last for ever although not all do.
You are correct that there is some heat treating that goes on in the heat affected zone with some bits actually getting stronger (but probably less ductile) and other bits weaker depending on the distance from the weld. It's partly because of this that the tubes are butted (thicker at the ends). This is also an area that Reynolds claim to have improved with their 631/853 tubes even going so far as to say that the welds make them stronger (but if so why do we still need butting?). Columbus look like they're going down a similar route with their new "omnicrom" alloy.
OP's failure looked like fatigue starting at the weld, the same as happened on my Trek (although that was at the DT/HT junction). The weld is usually made with a mild steel filler rod anyway, and the cause of failure is likely to be that there's some defect in it that's causing a concentration of stress.
No idea what that defect was but one observation is that the failure on the OP's frame started at the only place on the whole frame where you're welding thin to thin. On a TIG frame the HT is usually about 1.2mm thick, the BB shell 2mm or more, and the top of the ST about 1.2. The ends of all the other tubes are 0.8mm or so (maybe 0.9mm on a tourer) and the only place they meet is that awkward region where the DT intersects the bottom of the ST. It's very easy to blow a little hole here and if you don't quite fill it in right you might end up with a small section that's really thin that could lead to problems like this down the line.
Nick Maclaren
Nov 17, 2019, 5:37:03 AM11/17/19
to
In article <qqpena$efc$1...@dont-email.me>,
Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers. It was a damn dangerous
material, and sane people avoided it. Now, it's not too bad, but
doesn't handle abuse at all well, and a crash is quite likely to lead
to a sudden failure a long time later.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Shahryar <Shah...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>My last two, modern, aluminium road bike frames have had fatigue
>problems and failed after 15,000-20,000 km ( 3-4 years). i.e. they just
>wear out. Bikes were bought circa 2008, 2012
>
>AIUI this is because aluminium suffers from a fatigue limit problem such
>that even small stress cycles lead to damage, whereas for steel and
>carbon there is an endurance limit below which small loading cycles do
>not cause damage.
As in "No Highway" by Nevil Shute :-)
>
>My last two, modern, aluminium road bike frames have had fatigue
>problems and failed after 15,000-20,000 km ( 3-4 years). i.e. they just
>wear out. Bikes were bought circa 2008, 2012
>
>AIUI this is because aluminium suffers from a fatigue limit problem such
>that even small stress cycles lead to damage, whereas for steel and
>carbon there is an endurance limit below which small loading cycles do
>not cause damage.
Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers. It was a damn dangerous
material, and sane people avoided it. Now, it's not too bad, but
doesn't handle abuse at all well, and a crash is quite likely to lead
to a sudden failure a long time later.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Kim Wall
Nov 17, 2019, 6:30:25 AM11/17/19
to
On 17/11/2019 10:36, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
> the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
> seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers.
Now we have cheesy plastic to perform much the same function...
> Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
> the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
> seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers.
Kim.
--
Nick Maclaren
Nov 17, 2019, 7:21:10 AM11/17/19
to
In article <72n7ag-...@willow.ductilebiscuit.net>,
Having one fail catastrophically in use is a life-threatening event,
as I can witness :-(
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Kim Wall <k...@ductilebiscuit.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
>> the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
>> seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers.
>
>Now we have cheesy plastic to perform much the same function...
Indeed, but decent bicycles don't use those in the components I listed.
>
>> Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
>> the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
>> seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers.
>
>Now we have cheesy plastic to perform much the same function...
Having one fail catastrophically in use is a life-threatening event,
as I can witness :-(
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Nov 17, 2019, 3:53:45 PM11/17/19
to
what taught me not to ride cheese-quality bikes any more. Unfortunately
I was a kid with a paper round so it was a while before I could put that
into action...
Cheers - Jaimie
--
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it
harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg.
-- Bjarne Stroustrup
Ian Jackson
Nov 18, 2019, 3:33:05 PM11/18/19
to
In article <qqr7s2$9pj$1...@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren <nm...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
>the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
>seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers. It was a damn dangerous
>material, and sane people avoided it. Now, it's not too bad, but
>doesn't handle abuse at all well, and a crash is quite likely to lead
>to a sudden failure a long time later.
In addition to this frame crack, the same bike a few years ago dumped
>Yes. Before the high-quality aluminium alloys / treatments became
>the norm in cycling, sheds were full of bicycles with broken cranks,
>seatposts, stems, brakes and brake levers. It was a damn dangerous
>material, and sane people avoided it. Now, it's not too bad, but
>doesn't handle abuse at all well, and a crash is quite likely to lead
>to a sudden failure a long time later.
me on the road when the seatpost saddle clamp failed. (Good quality
aluminium seatpost from ~2008.)
At least it's done better than my ~first bike. When I was 6 or so,
going down a steep lumpy muddy track into woodland, the handlebars
came right off.
Last night my lock bracket broke, probably due to overtightening by my
LBS. It's a 3D printed part and not quite as strong as it looks. But
at least I can just print off another one. And then I was visited by
the p*nct*re fairy. That's probably my fault too...
Guy Gadboit
Nov 18, 2019, 6:02:12 PM11/18/19
to
I'm convinced the dreaded fairy you mention is getting a lot of encouragement from the wet weather and all the mud on the roads some of which contains sharp stones. Everyone I know who rides a bike has had a flat in the last couple of weeks.
Nick Maclaren
Nov 19, 2019, 4:49:13 AM11/19/19
to
In article <5ee21bf3-ad25-44d9...@googlegroups.com>,
Not the people who use Marathon Plus Tour tyres :-)
I have had on the front of my trike - hawthorn from flailing - Big Ben
Plus are good tyres, but are NOT puncture resistant. The Marathon Mondial
I have on the rear seems to be.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
I have had on the front of my trike - hawthorn from flailing - Big Ben
Plus are good tyres, but are NOT puncture resistant. The Marathon Mondial
I have on the rear seems to be.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Guy Gadboit
Nov 19, 2019, 5:16:47 AM11/19/19
to
Actually one of those punctures was on a Schwalbe Marathon Plus! I was pretty surprised but it really was a sharp object getting through. The actual stone was unfortunately not available for inspection but I did find the hole in the tyre.
Zebee Johnstone
Nov 19, 2019, 5:43:21 AM11/19/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:48:57 -0000 (UTC)
I had a marathon plus on the rear of my trike which had a recurring
puncture. Slow leak on the way to work... pump it up enough to get
there, flat as a flat thing when I am ready to go home.
Remove tyre, check tube for hole (use changing room sink...) then
check tyre. Nothing. No sign there or anywhere else of any sharp
anything. Hole on the other side from rim so not a rimtape issue.
CHange tube get home. Flat again a couple of days of no-riding later.
Remove tube, hole in same place, same complete lack of obvious reason.
Move tyre to front wheel cos that's way easier to manage. About a
week later... flat again! Same place.
So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
Zebee
puncture. Slow leak on the way to work... pump it up enough to get
there, flat as a flat thing when I am ready to go home.
Remove tyre, check tube for hole (use changing room sink...) then
check tyre. Nothing. No sign there or anywhere else of any sharp
anything. Hole on the other side from rim so not a rimtape issue.
CHange tube get home. Flat again a couple of days of no-riding later.
Remove tube, hole in same place, same complete lack of obvious reason.
Move tyre to front wheel cos that's way easier to manage. About a
week later... flat again! Same place.
So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
Zebee
Zebee Johnstone
Nov 19, 2019, 5:44:00 AM11/19/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Zebee
Guy Gadboit <benc....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Actually one of those punctures was on a Schwalbe Marathon Plus! I was pretty surprised but it really was a sharp object getting through. The actual stone was unfortunately not available for inspection but I did find the hole in the tyre.
I can report they will succumb to drawing pins.
> Actually one of those punctures was on a Schwalbe Marathon Plus! I was pretty surprised but it really was a sharp object getting through. The actual stone was unfortunately not available for inspection but I did find the hole in the tyre.
Zebee
Nick Maclaren
Nov 19, 2019, 7:22:12 AM11/19/19
to
In article <slrnqt7hps...@gmail.com>,
tread (NOT anti-puncture belts, tread), which is the main reason that
I use the Marathon Plus TOUR. I have had nearly as much protection
from very ordinary tyres with lots of tread, and my experience is that
they start getting punctures when the tread wears down.
The reason is usually that something embeds itself in the tyre, pushes
through when there is weight on it, and rebounds back when not.
Inverting the tyre around the problem usually shows it, but not always,
as you say.
Now why does tread help? Because, if the item gets between the raised
sections, it is not pushed in - and, if it is in one of them, it almost
always breaks off, and the compression doesn't get it the whole way
through. Yes, that's equivalent to a much thicker tyre, but it doesn't
have as much impact on rolling efficiency and does as grip in mud.
Nothing will stop a large sharp object, but a Marathon Plus Tour will
stop a drawing pin. It's simply the extra distance from the bearing
surface to the tube.
I have no experience with the knobbly treads, but don't believe they
would work as well. I am referring to tyres like the Marathon Plus
Tour and Mondial, with traditional tread.
And, of course, the Big Ben Plus is supposed to be puncture-resistant,
though I haven't found it so. I didn't use the Big Apple for long
enough to compare them, but my limited experience is that it was not
much worse. While the Big Ben has marginally more tread, I count it
as being almost treadless.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I had a marathon plus on the rear of my trike which had a recurring
>puncture. Slow leak on the way to work... pump it up enough to get
>there, flat as a flat thing when I am ready to go home.
>
>Remove tyre, check tube for hole (use changing room sink...) then
>check tyre. Nothing. No sign there or anywhere else of any sharp
>anything. Hole on the other side from rim so not a rimtape issue.
>
>CHange tube get home. Flat again a couple of days of no-riding later.
>Remove tube, hole in same place, same complete lack of obvious reason.
>
>Move tyre to front wheel cos that's way easier to manage. About a
>week later... flat again! Same place.
>
>So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
>on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
Yes. It can happen. In my experience, there is no substitute for
>
>I had a marathon plus on the rear of my trike which had a recurring
>puncture. Slow leak on the way to work... pump it up enough to get
>there, flat as a flat thing when I am ready to go home.
>
>Remove tyre, check tube for hole (use changing room sink...) then
>check tyre. Nothing. No sign there or anywhere else of any sharp
>anything. Hole on the other side from rim so not a rimtape issue.
>
>CHange tube get home. Flat again a couple of days of no-riding later.
>Remove tube, hole in same place, same complete lack of obvious reason.
>
>Move tyre to front wheel cos that's way easier to manage. About a
>week later... flat again! Same place.
>
>So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
>on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
tread (NOT anti-puncture belts, tread), which is the main reason that
I use the Marathon Plus TOUR. I have had nearly as much protection
from very ordinary tyres with lots of tread, and my experience is that
they start getting punctures when the tread wears down.
The reason is usually that something embeds itself in the tyre, pushes
through when there is weight on it, and rebounds back when not.
Inverting the tyre around the problem usually shows it, but not always,
as you say.
Now why does tread help? Because, if the item gets between the raised
sections, it is not pushed in - and, if it is in one of them, it almost
always breaks off, and the compression doesn't get it the whole way
through. Yes, that's equivalent to a much thicker tyre, but it doesn't
have as much impact on rolling efficiency and does as grip in mud.
Nothing will stop a large sharp object, but a Marathon Plus Tour will
stop a drawing pin. It's simply the extra distance from the bearing
surface to the tube.
I have no experience with the knobbly treads, but don't believe they
would work as well. I am referring to tyres like the Marathon Plus
Tour and Mondial, with traditional tread.
And, of course, the Big Ben Plus is supposed to be puncture-resistant,
though I haven't found it so. I didn't use the Big Apple for long
enough to compare them, but my limited experience is that it was not
much worse. While the Big Ben has marginally more tread, I count it
as being almost treadless.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Tosspot
Nov 19, 2019, 1:04:54 PM11/19/19
to
abrading it's way through the tube. Deflated it retracts back into the
rubber...
Roger Merriman
Nov 19, 2019, 6:09:32 PM11/19/19
to
Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
comfortable, and hasn’t suffered any deflation.
Roger Merriman
Zebee Johnstone
Nov 19, 2019, 6:29:57 PM11/19/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:09:23 -0000 (UTC)
I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
I've been pondering Big Apples but the Scorchers it had on from new
punctured way too often, and as I say it seems to be a slug on less
than 100psi on Scorchers, Trykers, and Marathon Plus even when the
tyre recommendation (Scorcher and Tryker) is much lower.
Zebee
Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
> comfortable, and hasn’t suffered any deflation.
What's it like speedwise?
>
> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
> comfortable, and hasn’t suffered any deflation.
I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
I've been pondering Big Apples but the Scorchers it had on from new
punctured way too often, and as I say it seems to be a slug on less
than 100psi on Scorchers, Trykers, and Marathon Plus even when the
tyre recommendation (Scorcher and Tryker) is much lower.
Zebee
Roger Merriman
Nov 19, 2019, 7:53:36 PM11/19/19
to
Touring which has a dreadful ride, grip is in the same ball park, though
lacks proper tread so can get overwhelmed if you ride somewhere soft, my
bike is a old MTB so though it’s a commute beast some of my routes can be
soggy!
But at 26x2in the tyres be that Touring or Apple are un phased by wet
white lines/metal work etc all sort of things in spite of hardwearing non
grippy rubber, size trumps all other considerations it would seem, though
equally in fairness the XC MTB tyres I used on it before did just edge them
out no doubt due to softer compound though equally wore out in under 2k
Speed since it’s a heavy commute beast it’s difficult to say, it’s probably
is but on my set up and use I notice grip and comfort but not rolling
resistance. I also think/know that how a tyre feels can equate to speed but
be false, I had some tyres that felt like treacle I checked my times etc,
nothing but noise no change and funny enough once reassured that they where
not slow just felt different I rather liked those tyres.
Roger Merriman.
Zebee Johnstone
Nov 19, 2019, 9:08:24 PM11/19/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:53:26 -0000 (UTC)
to trikeness.
> Speed since it’s a heavy commute beast it’s difficult to say, it’s probably
> is but on my set up and use I notice grip and comfort but not rolling
> resistance. I also think/know that how a tyre feels can equate to speed but
> be false, I had some tyres that felt like treacle I checked my times etc,
> nothing but noise no change and funny enough once reassured that they where
> not slow just felt different I rather liked those tyres.
I felt I was doing a lot more work on the lower pressures. IT was a
harder job to get anywhere. But pump them up and the difference in
effort is clear.
Right now the two front wheels are Trykers and the rear is Marathon Plus.
If I let them get down to 90 or below the difference in pedal effort
is quite obvious. Pump them up to a bit over 100 and the difference is
again quite obvious.
Zebee
Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> It’s shrugged off glass and what not, the tyre feels more lively than the
> Touring which has a dreadful ride, grip is in the same ball park, though
> lacks proper tread so can get overwhelmed if you ride somewhere soft, my
> bike is a old MTB so though it’s a commute beast some of my routes can be
> soggy!
Ther trike is 20" and white lines and metal work aren't a problem due
> It’s shrugged off glass and what not, the tyre feels more lively than the
> Touring which has a dreadful ride, grip is in the same ball park, though
> lacks proper tread so can get overwhelmed if you ride somewhere soft, my
> bike is a old MTB so though it’s a commute beast some of my routes can be
> soggy!
to trikeness.
> Speed since it’s a heavy commute beast it’s difficult to say, it’s probably
> is but on my set up and use I notice grip and comfort but not rolling
> resistance. I also think/know that how a tyre feels can equate to speed but
> be false, I had some tyres that felt like treacle I checked my times etc,
> nothing but noise no change and funny enough once reassured that they where
> not slow just felt different I rather liked those tyres.
harder job to get anywhere. But pump them up and the difference in
effort is clear.
Right now the two front wheels are Trykers and the rear is Marathon Plus.
If I let them get down to 90 or below the difference in pedal effort
is quite obvious. Pump them up to a bit over 100 and the difference is
again quite obvious.
Zebee
Nick Maclaren
Nov 21, 2019, 5:37:28 AM11/21/19
to
In article <slrnqt8unb...@gmail.com>,
left on the road. Dunno. But, on similar routes, I have found that
Big Apple and Big Ben Plus have got a LOT more punctures. I don't
find their ride harsh, but I have used them only in 622x37mm and
622x42mm at 50 psi on roadsters, where I don't carry my weight on my
hands.
>What's it like speedwise?
In my experience, OK, but rolling resistance is a small loss on such
a set up, even at my current low speeds, and I can't compare with any
'fast' tyres.
>I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
>100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
As I found them hopelessly slow and excruciatingly uncomfortable on a
fully suspended ICE Adventure over broken tarmac (and merely tolerable
over reasonable tarmac) at 60 psi, they sound more and more like real
losers. No grip, either.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:09:23 -0000 (UTC)
>Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
>> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
>> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
>> comfortable, and hasn't suffered any deflation.
It could be just chance, or that you ride where more flailings are
>In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:09:23 -0000 (UTC)
>Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
>> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
>> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
>> comfortable, and hasn't suffered any deflation.
left on the road. Dunno. But, on similar routes, I have found that
Big Apple and Big Ben Plus have got a LOT more punctures. I don't
find their ride harsh, but I have used them only in 622x37mm and
622x42mm at 50 psi on roadsters, where I don't carry my weight on my
hands.
>What's it like speedwise?
a set up, even at my current low speeds, and I can't compare with any
'fast' tyres.
>I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
>100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
fully suspended ICE Adventure over broken tarmac (and merely tolerable
over reasonable tarmac) at 60 psi, they sound more and more like real
losers. No grip, either.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Roger Merriman
Nov 21, 2019, 2:08:18 PM11/21/19
to
bigger I’m assuming your running 30/40mm mine is 50mm and as such top out
at 70psi but I run much lower 40psi or so, I’d suggest that the big Apple
is intended for 50/60mm forms really, and in those forms I do rate them.
>
> Zebee
>
Roger Merriman
Roger Merriman
Nov 21, 2019, 2:11:08 PM11/21/19
to
Nick Maclaren <n...@wheeler.UUCP> wrote:
> In article <slrnqt8unb...@gmail.com>,
> Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:09:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
>>> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
>>> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
>>> comfortable, and hasn't suffered any deflation.
>
> It could be just chance, or that you ride where more flailings are
> left on the road. Dunno. But, on similar routes, I have found that
> Big Apple and Big Ben Plus have got a LOT more punctures. I don't
> find their ride harsh, but I have used them only in 622x37mm and
> 622x42mm at 50 psi on roadsters, where I don't carry my weight on my
> hands.
I have adjusted route slightly which took out the Hawthorn hedge that the
> In article <slrnqt8unb...@gmail.com>,
> Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:09:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The only thing that I found did puncture Marathon plus Touring 2x was from
>>> Hawthorn flailing I am phasing them out in favour of the Big apples since I
>>> got fed up with the harsh ride, thus far the rear Big Apple is more
>>> comfortable, and hasn't suffered any deflation.
>
> It could be just chance, or that you ride where more flailings are
> left on the road. Dunno. But, on similar routes, I have found that
> Big Apple and Big Ben Plus have got a LOT more punctures. I don't
> find their ride harsh, but I have used them only in 622x37mm and
> 622x42mm at 50 psi on roadsters, where I don't carry my weight on my
> hands.
council trimmed that became a puncture gully!
The Marthon plus/Touring/big Apple share similar hard tread that seems to
shrug off glass that is my main risk, so far the Big Apple seems about par
for that sort of thing it hasn’t picked up any gashes yet, the Touring does
have thicker tread but not sure it’s a issue really, for myself I’ll trade
the possible puncture for the better riding that the Big Apple offers at
least at 50-559 and 40ish psi. As my other post not sure I see it’s point
other than in 50/60mm form, ie big squishy tyres.
>
>> What's it like speedwise?
>
> In my experience, OK, but rolling resistance is a small loss on such
> a set up, even at my current low speeds, and I can't compare with any
> 'fast' tyres.
>
>> I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
>> 100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
>
> As I found them hopelessly slow and excruciatingly uncomfortable on a
> fully suspended ICE Adventure over broken tarmac (and merely tolerable
> over reasonable tarmac) at 60 psi, they sound more and more like real
> losers. No grip, either.
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.
>
Roger Merriman
>> What's it like speedwise?
>
> In my experience, OK, but rolling resistance is a small loss on such
> a set up, even at my current low speeds, and I can't compare with any
> 'fast' tyres.
>
>> I tried Trykers on the trike and it was hard work unless they were
>> 100psi instead of the recommended 85 or so.
>
> As I found them hopelessly slow and excruciatingly uncomfortable on a
> fully suspended ICE Adventure over broken tarmac (and merely tolerable
> over reasonable tarmac) at 60 psi, they sound more and more like real
> losers. No grip, either.
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.
>
Nick Maclaren
Nov 22, 2019, 3:41:16 AM11/22/19
to
In article <qr6nfp$igh$1...@dont-email.me>,
and hawthorn - my second most common cause is small bits of wire from
motor vehicle tyres, but I have trouble with flint in areas where there
is a lot. Now I think about it, my tyres must be resistant to glass,
because I can't believe I don't encounter any.
I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>I have adjusted route slightly which took out the Hawthorn hedge that the
>council trimmed that became a puncture gully!
>
>The Marthon plus/Touring/big Apple share similar hard tread that seems to
>shrug off glass that is my main risk, so far the Big Apple seems about par
>for that sort of thing it hasn't picked up any gashes yet, the Touring does
>have thicker tread but not sure it’s a issue really, for myself I'll trade
>the possible puncture for the better riding that the Big Apple offers at
>least at 50-559 and 40ish psi. As my other post not sure I see it's point
>other than in 50/60mm form, ie big squishy tyres.
Interesting. Yes, I can believe that tyres react differently to glass
>
>I have adjusted route slightly which took out the Hawthorn hedge that the
>council trimmed that became a puncture gully!
>
>The Marthon plus/Touring/big Apple share similar hard tread that seems to
>shrug off glass that is my main risk, so far the Big Apple seems about par
>for that sort of thing it hasn't picked up any gashes yet, the Touring does
>have thicker tread but not sure it’s a issue really, for myself I'll trade
>the possible puncture for the better riding that the Big Apple offers at
>least at 50-559 and 40ish psi. As my other post not sure I see it's point
>other than in 50/60mm form, ie big squishy tyres.
and hawthorn - my second most common cause is small bits of wire from
motor vehicle tyres, but I have trouble with flint in areas where there
is a lot. Now I think about it, my tyres must be resistant to glass,
because I can't believe I don't encounter any.
I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Kim Wall
Nov 22, 2019, 10:40:18 AM11/22/19
to
On 22/11/2019 08:41, Nick Maclaren wrote:
> Interesting. Yes, I can believe that tyres react differently to glass
> and hawthorn - my second most common cause is small bits of wire from
> motor vehicle tyres, but I have trouble with flint in areas where there
> is a lot. Now I think about it, my tyres must be resistant to glass,
> because I can't believe I don't encounter any.
I've had surprisingly few glass related punctures in the various
> Interesting. Yes, I can believe that tyres react differently to glass
> and hawthorn - my second most common cause is small bits of wire from
> motor vehicle tyres, but I have trouble with flint in areas where there
> is a lot. Now I think about it, my tyres must be resistant to glass,
> because I can't believe I don't encounter any.
flavours of Marathons I've used, in spite of nearly all my rides
including at least a few miles of urban riding where it's the main
hazard (I live near a university, where bottle-smashing and kicking over
recycling bins are popular activities among the drunken students). I
occasionally spot a fragment of glass embedded in the tyre and dig it
out without a puncture occurring.
Unfortunately, nothing (apart from perhaps tubeless) can beat hawthorn
or wire finding its way through the sidewall. Indeed, big soft MTB
tyres seem to have an advantage with hawthorn, in that they'll sometimes
do a respectable job of staying inflated if you resist the temptation to
pull the thorn out.
Kim.
--
Roger Merriman
Nov 22, 2019, 3:14:17 PM11/22/19
to
so I swapped the tubes out with a cup of tea at work!
Roger Merriman
Roger Merriman
Nov 22, 2019, 3:15:21 PM11/22/19
to
the Big Apple? Though the Marathon plus has fairly notorious ride, they
also always test well for rolling resistance the plus bit doesn’t seem add
much, in short I think the ride makes folks feel they are slower than they
are!
Roger Merriman
Nick Maclaren
Nov 22, 2019, 3:28:14 PM11/22/19
to
In article <qr9fka$gnp$1...@dont-email.me>,
I think that it's the width - 20" wheels aren't really up to handling
rural roads with 10% (gravel) bridleway, and a 10% reduction in rolling
resistance would account for my experience. I agree with you about the
principle that most people seem to judge by perception rather than
measurement!
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
rural roads with 10% (gravel) bridleway, and a 10% reduction in rolling
resistance would account for my experience. I agree with you about the
principle that most people seem to judge by perception rather than
measurement!
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Zebee Johnstone
Nov 22, 2019, 3:56:19 PM11/22/19
to
In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Fri, 22 Nov 2019 08:41:02 -0000 (UTC)
The GT20 trike is good in many ways and the mesh seat helps to smooth
some of the jolting but a Marathon Plus is a stiff tyre and at 100+psi
transmits every bump and crack and those dreadful concrete joints
straight to my spine. A tyre that helped with the jolting while not
requiring me to drop a gear would be good!
Zebee
Nick Maclaren <n...@wheeler.UUCP> wrote:
>
> I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
> faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
How does it compare to a Marathon?
>
> I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
> faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
The GT20 trike is good in many ways and the mesh seat helps to smooth
some of the jolting but a Marathon Plus is a stiff tyre and at 100+psi
transmits every bump and crack and those dreadful concrete joints
straight to my spine. A tyre that helped with the jolting while not
requiring me to drop a gear would be good!
Zebee
Nick Maclaren
Nov 22, 2019, 4:52:38 PM11/22/19
to
In article <slrnqtgiqt...@gmail.com>,
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
>> faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
>
>How does it compare to a Marathon?
Sorry. I have no experience of using both in comparable ways.
>>
>> I found that the 406x55mm Big Ben Plus was both more comfortable and
>> faster than the Big Apple 406x50mm, which surprised me.
>
>How does it compare to a Marathon?
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Rob Morley
Jan 20, 2020, 11:15:55 PM1/20/20
to
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:43:08 -0000 (UTC)
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
> on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
I've had the occasional recurring puncture like this. I found that
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So that tyre is lying on a shelf with "DANGER" scrawled in chinagraph
> on it and one day I will cut it up to see if I can find the issue.
after washing and drying the tyre, to make inspection easier, you can
pinch and bend the tread to open up cuts in the rubber that might not
otherwise be seen. Then probe the cuts with a pointy metal thing to
see if there's anything still embedded. Usually little flakes of glass
that you can't easily see or feel, particularly when you're doing a
hurried roadside repair.
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