2011 Lundy Puffins

[Padraic Brown]

As a fan of the coins (yeah, I know -- fantasy tokens) of Lundy, I was
interested to note that a new issue was made
this year (2011) and so got a set. In bronze are the 1/2 and 1 puffin.
In brass are the 2 and 4 puffins. In what appears
to be CuNi is the 6 puffin.

The P1/2 is the same size as the 1929 series, while the P1 has been
reduced in size somewhat from 1929. The
two brass coins are the same size as the two bronze coins. All are
very nicely designed and executed. The portrait
of Martin Harman is only slightly different than the 1929 portrait.
The reverse of the P1/2 and P1 are the same as the
1929 coins. The P2, P4 and P6 carry on the the same theme of
indicating denomination by number of puffins
depicted. According to Wikipedia, the P4 also depicts the Lundy
Lighthouse and the P6 depicts Tresco Castle (which
is apparently in the Isles of Scilly. The four smaller coins have the
well known motto "Lundy Lights and Leads" incuse
around the edge of the coins; the P6 has a reeded edge.

Padraic

[oly]

The new Puffins look nice enough (on ebay); maybe slightly pricey.
I'll buy replicas and fantasies, but I kinda fret about paying too
much. oly

[Padraic Brown]

Cost is certainly a consideration. At about $23 per set, that's
something
like $4.75 per coin. Not bad, really. There are also singletons for
sale
starting at about a dollar. Can hardly go wrong. In my opinion, they
are
well enough made to warrant the cost. They aren't cheap pot metal
pieces and the dies are clearly masterfully made. The technology used
to strike and do the edge lettering puts many world mints to shame.
And
all this for a fantasy coin issue with a relatively limited market!

Padraic

[oly]

> Padraic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I may buy a set; I just bought some (six pieces) decent Russian
replicas/fantasies from a fellow in England for a whopping $45. and
could probably do one or two of the Lundy sets.

Have you ever taken the boat out ot Lundy??? If I find myself in the
UK in the summer time, I would like to make a day trip or maybe stay
one or two overnights. I looked it up on the net once with that
thought.

oly

[Ice Torch]

Here's the reply I got from the official Lundy web site:

Dear Philip,

The "Lundy Coins" you mention are unauthorised & totally spurious -
that's the first we've seen of them, but maybe others will enquire as
well.

Regards,

Reg Tuffin

---

Just so you know. Totally up to you whether you want to buy them, of
course. The original tokens were not "fantasy" tokens, as they were
actually used on Lundy in place of money. A token is a piece that is
used as payment but is not official, that is, it is not issued by the
state.

Phil.

[Padraic Brown]

On Oct 21, 4:11 pm, Ice Torch <iceto...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

>> The "Lundy Coins" you mention are unauthorised & totally spurious -
>> that's the first we've seen of them, but maybe others will enquire as
>> well.
>

> Just so you know. Totally up to you whether you want to buy them, of
> course. The original tokens were not "fantasy" tokens, as they were
> actually used on Lundy in place of money. A token is a piece that is
> used as payment but is not official, that is, it is not issued by the
> state.

Well -- and I say this, as I said earlier, a fan of Lundy's coins, and
as a
fan of micronations in general -- these were every bit as fantastic
and
every bit as tokenish as any other micronational coinage. The 1929
coinage was Mr Harman's fantasy, perhaps shared by other
residents of the island who went along with the game. According to
your own definition, they were "tokens" -- something used for payment
that is not an official coinage and not issued by a competent
authority.
Now, if I were around on Lundy back in 1929, I would have quite
happily
used the things. But I quite understand that puffins are not 'coin of
the
realm'.

Here in the US, some four decades or so before Mr Harman bought his
own micro-empire, we had a US emperor (see Norton I) who issued
his own token scrip and circulated it among some willing folks in San
Francisco. Like Harman's coins, Norton I's notes were a fantasy token
issue. And in the later 20th century, we have the Norfed dollars --
based
on the fantasy that America will return to a metals backed currency,
and
it too was a token. Just because some, or even a very large
number of, people accept the token, doesn't grant the token any status
other than what it is.

[oly]

Harmon only issued 1/2 Puffins and 1 Puffins way back when, and I
don't know that anybody today could present any contemporary evidence
that they "circulated"; you can only present evidence that the Crown
got rather huffy about the whole exercise. So lets call the new 1/2
and 1 as "replicas".

If memory serves, the other things in this 2011 Lundy set never were
at all at any earlier time, so "fantasies" is about right on those.

If the great exalted self-proclaimed numismatic pedagogue suggests or
says "don't buy", I guess I'll have to order two (on the other hand,
the Royal Mint just released the design of the 2010 Five Pounds coin
and gee, I want several of those too).

NORFED was just a pokey silly multi-level marketing scheme to sell
seven dollar silver for ten dollars, and later twelve dollar silver
for twenty dollars. Had that fellow just stuck to knocking out silver
rounds, he wouldn't have to fantasize about not being in prison.

oly

[oly]

> oly- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Specifically, I'm interested in the 2012 Diamond Jubilee Crown; very
traditional, looks nice. There is a lot of new designs stuff at the
Royal Mint website now.

oly

[Ice Torch]

> Harmon only issued 1/2 Puffins and 1 Puffins way back when, and I
> don't know that anybody today could present any contemporary evidence
> that they "circulated"; you can only present evidence that the Crown
> got rather huffy about the whole exercise.  So lets call the new 1/2
> and 1 as "replicas".

Oh dear, it's Roly Poly, getting all consumed with jealousy again -
and the dear girl had said she was going to put me in her "kill file".
Promises, promises...
If the tokens did not circulate, how did the government find out about
them? They were huffy about the fact that they seemed to be
masquerading as real pennies and ha'pennies - and that was forbidden.

> If the great exalted self-proclaimed numismatic pedagogue suggests or
> says "don't buy", I guess I'll have to order two (on the other hand,
> the Royal Mint just released the design of the 2010 Five Pounds coin
> and gee, I want several of those too).

I've never claimed to be a "pedagogue" - I just enjoy writing about
coins and then learning things from other hobbyists' intelligent
responses or corrections. No man is an island and all that, and if I
just sat at home looking at my collection, I wouldn't learn much. Not
that YOUR spam has ever taught me anything. And if you had half a
brain, you'd notice that I didn't say "don't buy" - I was merely
relaying what the current Lundy authorities said about the genuineness
of the piece. My words were "it's up to you if you want to buy it". I
don't advise anybody what to do in their own hobby, and I've bought a
few fantasies myself when I've liked the design.

Phil.

[oly]

As I thought, you can't cite any contemporary evidence that the
Puffins "circulated". Say an article from The Times or some other
general circulation newspaper of the era. The Crown was within its
rights simply to object to their manufacture, their existence, and
that was what Harman was tried for. Amongst whom would the Puffins
have "circulated"??? Population figures are obscure, but Lundy
probably didn't have two dozen persons living there in 1929.
Wikipedia states that there was no regular GPO mail service after 1927
because of the sharp decline in population (19th century guides
suggest 30 people or so were permanent inhabitants at most times).

Just another phoney baloney making it all up as they go along.

Now I'll have to buy three sets.

oly

[Ice Torch]

> As I thought, you can't cite any contemporary evidence that the
> Puffins "circulated".  Say an article from The Times or some other
> general circulation newspaper of the era.  The Crown was within its
> rights simply to object to their manufacture, their existence, and
> that was what Harman was tried for.  Amongst whom would the Puffins
> have "circulated"???  Population figures are obscure, but Lundy
> probably didn't have two dozen persons living there in 1929.
> Wikipedia states that there was no regular GPO mail service after 1927
> because of the sharp decline in population (19th century guides
> suggest 30 people or so were permanent inhabitants at most times).
>
> Just another phoney baloney making it all up as they go along.
>
> Now I'll have to buy three sets.
>
> oly

Have a look at this article from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_Lundy

"Visitors from the island could exchange any remaining 'puffins' at
the banks in Bideford, who then returned the Lundy coins to the island
(Coin News 1999). The coins were struck in Birmingham by Ralph
Heaton's Mint, Birmingham Ltd. The currency saw real, if limited use.

Harman had sent specimen coins to the Royal Mint and had been thanked
for them, although they had warned him about Section 5 of the Coinage
Act 1870. Harman replied that Lundy was a little Kingdom in the
British Empire, but out of England. He recognised King George V as the
head of state, however he was adamant that Lundy was a self-governing
dominion within the British Empire. This led to a visit from the Devon
Constabulary and a Supt. Bolt and other officers reported seeing the
coins (tokens) in use at the Marisco Tavern, mixed with standard
British Imperial coinage. Harman lost his case at the Petty Sessions
in Bideford and appealed to the High Court of Justice where he also
lost and was fined £5, with fifteen guineas (£15 15s) costs."

"Time (America) report for Monday, January 20th, 1930

Coins denominated the puffin and half-puffin—respectively worth a
British penny and half-penny—have just gone into circulation among the
40 dwellers on Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel, also called
"Puffin Island." Both half and whole puffins bear the likeness of
Martin Coles Harman, Esq., London merchant, who bought Puffin Island
in 1925 and plays at being its king. On the "tails" side of a puffin
is the head of a puffin (sea bird with a parrotlike beak and white
cheeks). Puffin Islanders also have puffin stamps. Red and green, in
puffin and half-puffin denominations, each having a handsome steel
engraving of a puffin perched on a rock."

Buy as many modern pseudo-sets as you want. Your collecting habits are
your own business.

I suspect one of the problems with the original tokens was that they
were just too good. In specification (weight, size, metal) they were
very close to the circulating penny and halfpenny, and also very well
executed. The fact that they displayed a sense of humour also made
people want them and want to use them. It made me want them too - I
have a 1929 set. If the tokens had been poor quality, poorly designed
six-sided plastic things, I don't think the law would have shown any
interest, but the fact that they were so convincingly coin-like and
that Harman had put his head on the obverse, as though he was the
ruler, obviously got up the authorities' nose.

Apart from population, though, Lundy did and does get tourists. They
probably had something to do with making the tokens known. Small
islands are beautiful and fun to visit: Herm (a dependency of
Guernsey) and the Farne Islands (in the North Sea off England/
Scotland) are amogn my favourites.

Phil.

[Ice Torch]

You have a point, Padraic, that everything is initially a fantasy in
somebody's mind until put into practice. In my opinion, Harman's Lundy
tokens had a bit more legitimacy than most token or fantasies because
he actually owned the island, though his idea that he was king of a
dominion was absurd. But it's not as if he issued "coins" of Atlantis,
as some individuals or companies have done. Because Harman's tokens
were well made quality pieces, people actually wanted to use them. As
we've seen, there have been coins that people don't want to use, like
these circulation dollar coins in the US that don't seem to circulate.
It's a matter of opinion, but if people actually USE pieces in place
of money, then they are genuine tokens, in my opinion. You get
different categories of token, of course: the German Notgeld tokens
that were used literally out of necessity, for lack of anything else -
Lundy tokens can't be considered as being as "authentic" as them. It
all comes down to how you split the difference, though, and we have
differing opinions on the matter.

Fantasy sets are an interesting phenomenon, and I did start a topic
trying to categorise them:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6848.0.html

I started off with four categories, but after the forum members
pitched in and said their piece, I ended up expanding them to seven. I
gave up when I learnt that the unofficial government of Cabinda, an
wannabe country that it is an exclave owned by Angola, was going to
issue its own coins, because it was indignant that a private Western
company were already issuing "coins" in the name of Cabinda simply for
commercial gain. It was just getting silly at that point. But it's
certainly not a straightforward area where you can say two and two
equals four - you just have to categorise it according to your own
priorities. A fascinating area of numismatics, though.

Phil.

[oly]

> Phil.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

50,000 pieces for an island with 40 inhabitants in 1929. Harman was
isssuing fantasies, not tokens, just as he was already doing with
postage stamps.

However, I do thank you for the valuable information that Lundy has a
tavern, apparently still in operation today. There are recent photos
of it on the internet. Now I absolutely must go there sooner or
later. Boat, tavern, boat. Now that's day-tripping at its finest.

oly

[Ice Torch]

And speaking of taverns:

"In March 1930, police officers visited Lundy and found Puffins and
Half Puffins in the till of the Tavern (Lundy's Inn) together with
current U.K. coins, and subsequently a charge was brought against Mr.
Harman, for issuing coins of value contrary to Section 5 of the
Coinage Act 1870."

Now, there's nothing more authentic than being spent in a pub. And
where did I find this? Here:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,391.0.html

Admittedly it's my favourite forum, but it's from 2007, before I
joined. Figleaf, the forum owner and administrator, is convinced, and
he takes a lot of convincing. He even believes that a coin is not a
coin unless it is spent, so he calls all non-circulating collector
coins "pseudo-coins". Me, I take the legal view: if a coin is issued
by a recognised state, then it's a coin. And if it's a coin, then it's
legal tender, and it CAN be spent - even if nobody will accept it.
(Try spending a Maundy fourpence in the UK - it IS legal tender, but
try persuading a shop assistant to take it).

There's a file on Lundy in the National Archives in London, which is
only a hour and a quarter's travel for me, so I may look it up one
day, but in the meantime I've got too many other priorities when I'm
there.

Phil.

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:64dab3f7-2f64-450d...@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

>However, I do thank you for the valuable information that Lundy has a
tavern, apparently still in operation today. There are recent photos
of it on the internet. Now I absolutely must go there sooner or
later. Boat, tavern, boat. Now that's day-tripping at its finest.

I'm surpised you are ever sober enough for a day trip, much less a trip across
the Atlantic!
Must have been a while since you've traveled, you old rummy, they no longer let
intoxicated individuals board planes.

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:64dab3f7-2f64-450d...@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

>However, I do thank you for the valuable information that Lundy has a
tavern, apparently still in operation today. There are recent photos
of it on the internet. Now I absolutely must go there sooner or
later. Boat, tavern, boat. Now that's day-tripping at its finest.

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:64dab3f7-2f64-450d...@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

>However, I do thank you for the valuable information that Lundy has a
tavern, apparently still in operation today. There are recent photos
of it on the internet. Now I absolutely must go there sooner or
later. Boat, tavern, boat. Now that's day-tripping at its finest.

[Watcher]

Good point about him owning the island -- but I would disagree about
legitimacy. Now, the constitutional position of many parts of the
British
monarch's realms are interesting and full of ancient tradition; and
there
is certainly precedent for Lundy being a realm outside of England but
with the monarch as HoS -- your favorite Herm, and indeed all the rest
of the Channel Islands, as well as the Isle of Man are "outside
England".

(By the way, do you speak Jerriais? -- or I guess Guernésiais would be
better!)

Perhaps if he'd gotten his position sorted out with respect to the law
first, then his coinage might have had some legitimacy. As it stands,
it's really no different than any island owner declaring, of his own
authority, in essence "I have the right to make coin of this little
realm".
Without any kind of legal standing with the crown, Harman's action
was a) bound to get him in trouble and b) never had a hope of
succeeding.

> But it's not as if he issued "coins" of Atlantis,
> as some individuals or companies have done.

Indeed not. But there *are* plenty of micronational coins out there
that
are attached to real places: Sealand comes to mind, as does Hutt
River. Very few of these have any kind of recognised status -- the
Knights
of Malta, I think, are about the only ones that do. Some are even
intended
for use -- the coins of the worldwide Esperanto movement for example.

> Because Harman's tokens
> were well made quality pieces, people actually wanted to use them. As
> we've seen, there have been coins that people don't want to use, like
> these circulation dollar coins in the US that don't seem to circulate.

I don't see the comparison. Dollar coins don't circulate in the US
mostly
because of apathy, not because of any inherent quality of the coins.
I do agree that they are extremely well done! If I had never heard of
Lundy before, I'd just assume that the puffins were coins of some
country I'd never heard of!

> It's a matter of opinion, but if people actually USE pieces in place
> of money, then they are genuine tokens, in my opinion.

No argument there! I'd go along with the puffins being "genuine
tokens".
But so are the bus tokens I've got in my desk -- they're just not as
lovely as the puffins!

>You get
> different categories of token, of course: the German Notgeld tokens
> that were used literally out of necessity, for lack of anything else -
> Lundy tokens can't be considered as being as "authentic" as them. It
> all comes down to how you split the difference, though, and we have
> differing opinions on the matter.

There are still wide gulfs between them: the notgelds were issued by
local authorities.Notgelds therefore were "official tokens" and had
the force
of legitimate money. Tokens like CW varieties, issued by private
merchants
and thus without any authority, only circulated out of absolute
necessity --
even if the government wanted to stop their use, people would
naturally rise
up and say "well, where are all the government pennies and nickels we
need
for daily commerce!?" There was no desperate need on Lundy for the
puffins
to circulate. If I issued my own tokens, there would be little use for
them
and probably no one would accept them. Even if I got a few to
circulate, I
wouldn't consider that anything like the issuance and use of notgeld!
If any
puffins circulated on Lundy, I think it would have been more as a
novelty
than because of any need for small change or because of any authority
on
the island that could regulate coinage for the island.

I guess it depends on what is meant by "authentic" here. Certainly,
the
1929 puffins are "authentic" in that they were ordered and issued by
the
owner of the island, and so are artifacts of his genius. (There was no
situation like Cabinda you mention below, where some outside company
is trying to make money by issuing "coins" in Cabinda's name.) But
this
doesn't lend Harman's coins any legitimacy. All it means is that they
are
authentic pieces of early 20th century Lundy history, having been made
by the man in question. The notgelds on the other hand are not only
authentic, but also, in their time and place, legitimate money.

> Fantasy sets are an interesting phenomenon, and I did start a topic
> trying to categorise them:
>
> http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6848.0.html
>
> I started off with four categories, but after the forum members
> pitched in and said their piece, I ended up expanding them to seven. I
> gave up when I learnt that the unofficial government of Cabinda, an
> wannabe country that it is an exclave owned by Angola, was going to
> issue its own coins, because it was indignant that a private Western
> company were already issuing "coins" in the name of Cabinda simply for
> commercial gain. It was just getting silly at that point. But it's
> certainly not a straightforward area where you can say two and two
> equals four - you just have to categorise it according to your own
> priorities. A fascinating area of numismatics, though.

Certainly true that!

Padraic

> Phil

[Watcher]

On Oct 23, 9:59 am, Ice Torch <iceto...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

> And if it's a coin, then it's
> legal tender, and it CAN be spent - even if nobody will accept it.
> (Try spending a Maundy fourpence in the UK - it IS legal tender, but
> try persuading a shop assistant to take it).

Stupid shop assistant, then -- those are sterling, and certainly worth
more than face value! I'm not even in the UK, but I'd take Maundy
4d bits all day long (at 4c per), so long as you're willing to spend
em!

Or, I guess that should be, "4p bits", since it seems all the Maundy
coins went decimal...

> Phil

Padraic

[oly]

On Oct 23, 3:35 pm, "Some Guy" <s...@guy.xxx> wrote:
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message

Well, I'm sober enough that I don't double post, like some old
faeiries here...

My most recent trip to the UK was a little over a year ago, 16 days.
I have every intention to making a big circle out to Hay-on-Wye, St.
Ives, and Lundy. Maybe include Plymouth too. Needs to be summer-ish,
however.

Old faggots like you (with your smelly ulcerous dripping anal
receptacles, in lieu of your drug-eaten dog shit-for-brains) have
never heard of such places, let alone know why any intelligent person
would want to visit them.

Have a nice evening!!!

oly

[Ice Torch]

In reality, of course, I wouldn't be stupid enough to want to spend
Maundy pieces either.

As for "4p bits", the colloquial word "bit" here in the UK disappeared
along with pounds, shillings and pence. Prior to that, the phrase
"threepenny bit" (usually pronounced "thrupp'nie bit"), or "two bob
bit", or even "sixpenny bit" (more usually called a "tanner") was
heard often enough. But nowadays "bit" has been replaced by "piece",
which I would say is NOT colloquial. The other change after
decimalisation was that people said "half PENNY" (or often enough, and
ungrammatically, "half PENCE") instead of "ha'penny", though that coin
is long defunct now. And of course, the "PENCE" gets stressed how when
said, as opposed to the number part in pre-decimal days: "SIXpence"
but "fifty PENCE" (the 50p having about equal buying power now to the
old 6d!)..

Phil.

[Ice Torch]

> (By the way, do you speak Jerriais? -- or I guess Guernésiais would be
> better!)

Fraid not - only "Jerry" :-) , having worked in Germany for a while.

>
> > Because Harman's tokens
> > were well made quality pieces, people actually wanted to use them. As
> > we've seen, there have been coins that people don't want to use, like
> > these circulation dollar coins in the US that don't seem to circulate.
>
> I don't see the comparison. Dollar coins don't circulate in the US
> mostly because of apathy, not because of any inherent quality of the coins.

No, I didn't intend to imply that. The reason is clear: people are
conservative and will prefer the existing banknotes, where there is a
choice.

> There was no desperate need on Lundy for the puffins

> to circulate. If any

> puffins circulated on Lundy, I think it would have been more as a
> novelty than because of any need for small change or because of any authority
> on the island that could regulate coinage for the island.

But circulation is still circulation, and that's "authenticity" for
me.

Phil.

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:8fa9dbf3-677d-4627...@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

=============================================
Have you ever thought about getting professional help for your alcoholism?
You really should, you old tosspot.
I've heard AA can work wonders with topers like you.
Unfortunately for you, the brain cells you've rotted out through decades of
alcohol abuse are gone for good.

[oly]

On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Some Guy" <s...@guy.xxx> wrote:
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8fa9dbf3-677d-4627...@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 23, 3:35 pm, "Some Guy" <s...@guy.xxx> wrote:
>
> > "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:64dab3f7-2f64-450d...@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...>However, I
> > do thank you for the valuable information that Lundy has a
>
> > tavern, apparently still in operation today. There are recent photos
> > of it on the internet. Now I absolutely must go there sooner or
> > later. Boat, tavern, boat. Now that's day-tripping at its finest.
>
> > I'm surpised you are ever sober enough for a day trip, much less a trip across
> > the Atlantic!
> > Must have been a while since you've traveled, you old rummy, they no longer
> > let
> > intoxicated individuals board planes.
>
> Well, I'm sober enough that I don't double post, like some old
> faeiries here...
>
> My most recent trip to the UK was a little over a year ago, 16 days.
> I have every intention to making a big circle out to Hay-on-Wye, St.
> Ives, and Lundy.  Maybe include Plymouth too.  Needs to be summer-ish,
> however.
>

> Old @#!*% like you (with your smelly ulcerous dripping anal
> receptacles, in lieu of your drug-eaten dog @#!*% -for-brains) have

> never heard of such places, let alone know why any intelligent person
> would want to visit them.
>
> Have a nice evening!!!
>
> oly
> =============================================
> Have you ever thought about getting professional help for your alcoholism?
> You really should, you old tosspot.
> I've heard AA can work wonders with topers like you.
> Unfortunately for you, the brain cells you've rotted out through decades of
> alcohol abuse are gone for good.

Have you ever thought about getting proefssional help for your
dripping anal ulcer??? I've heard Salversan can do wonders for old
homos like you. Unfortunately, all the other folks you've infected
upstairs at coin shows are infected for good.

oly

oly

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:adf8ae79-fe12-4353...@g1g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...

=================================================
Are you offering to suck my ass, you old rummy?

[oly]

> Are you offering to suck my @#!*% , you old rummy?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I am simply pointing out that while insobriety is a temporary
condition, old faeries (like yourself, Some Guy) are infectious 24/7.
All should beware. Note that Some Guy doesn't deny his orientation.

oly

[Some Guy]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:b11601fd-942c-4805...@x20g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

============================================
For one thing, I don't have a junior high mentality like you that thinks "gay"
is an insult, you homophobic old sot.
Alcoholism is a permanent condition and a harsh taskmaster.
You don't seem to be at the point where you are willing to confront your demons
head on, prefering to come here and make juvenile comments to your betters.

[Padraic Brown]

On Oct 24, 7:40 am, Ice Torch <iceto...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> > (By the way, do you speak Jerriais? -- or I guess Guernésiais would be
> > better!)
>
> Fraid not - only "Jerry" :-) , having worked in Germany for a while.
>
>
>
> > > Because Harman's tokens
> > > were well made quality pieces, people actually wanted to use them. As
> > > we've seen, there have been coins that people don't want to use, like
> > > these circulation dollar coins in the US that don't seem to circulate.
>
> > I don't see the comparison. Dollar coins don't circulate in the US
> > mostly because of apathy, not because of any inherent quality of the coins.
>
> No, I didn't intend to imply that.

Okay.

> The reason is clear: people are
> conservative and will prefer the existing banknotes, where there is a
> choice.

I'd agree with that generally -- people don't much like change. But
people
get over it when change is upon them. No one frets much anymore about
there being no gold standard or silver certificates or silver coins...

...except a few nostalgic types here in RCC!

If the BEP were simply ordered to stop printing $1 notes *TODAY*, we'd
be
forced to use dollar coins (and perhaps halves and $2 notes) more. The
American
people would carp about it for about a month or two, and then would
realize that
hey it's Christmas! And then all the New Year parties. And then
Superbowl...

And so it goes. We'd forget all about $1 notes by this time next year.

> > There was no desperate need on Lundy for the puffins
> > to circulate.  If any
> > puffins circulated on Lundy, I think it would have been more as a
> > novelty than because of any need for small change or because of any authority
> > on the island that could regulate coinage for the island.
>
> But circulation is still circulation, and that's "authenticity" for
> me.

Fair enough!

> Phil.

Padraic

[Padraic Brown]

On Oct 24, 7:32 am, Ice Torch <iceto...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 4:12 am, Watcher <jeobse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 9:59 am, Ice Torch <iceto...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > And if it's a coin, then it's
> > > legal tender, and it CAN be spent - even if nobody will accept it.
> > > (Try spending a Maundy fourpence in the UK - it IS legal tender, but
> > > try persuading a shop assistant to take it).
>
> > Stupid shop assistant, then -- those are sterling, and certainly worth
> > more than face value! I'm not even in the UK, but I'd take Maundy
> > 4d bits all day long (at 4c per), so long as you're willing to spend
> > em!
>
> > Or, I guess that should be, "4p bits", since it seems all the Maundy
> > coins went decimal...
>
> > > Phil
>
> > Padraic
>
> In reality, of course, I wouldn't be stupid enough to want to spend
> Maundy pieces either.

Nuts. Well, the offer is always open!

> As for "4p bits", the colloquial word "bit" here in the UK disappeared
> along with pounds, shillings and pence. Prior to that, the phrase
> "threepenny bit" (usually pronounced "thrupp'nie bit"), or "two bob
> bit", or even "sixpenny bit" (more usually called a "tanner") was
> heard often enough. But nowadays "bit" has been replaced by "piece",
> which I would say is NOT colloquial. The other change after
> decimalisation was that people said "half PENNY" (or often enough, and
> ungrammatically, "half PENCE") instead of "ha'penny", though that coin
> is long defunct now. And of course, the "PENCE" gets stressed how when
> said, as opposed to the number part in pre-decimal days: "SIXpence"
> but "fifty PENCE" (the 50p having about equal buying power now to the
> old 6d!)..

Interesting indeed!

Here in Leftpondia, we've had our "bits" as well, being originally a
wedge off
a Spanish dollar worth 12.5 cents. The term is still heard
occasionally, for
example "four bits" for something costing 50c or "six bits" for
something
costing 75c.

Almost everyone still calls pennies "pennies". Only a few bother with
the
unusual term "one cent piece". Haven't had half cents since the
mid-19th
century, so no colloquialisms there!

"Piece" is also a common colloquialism: "five cent piece", "25 cent
piece".

I think the general comment on buying power is in effect here as well.

> Phil

Padraic

[Bremick]

"Padraic Brown" <luri...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f8fd31e-7e13-428f...@er6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

_______________

I still believe that, if the dollar bill is taken away, it's too easy to
presume that people would use dollar coins to the same extent they use
dollar bills today. Today, most of the dollar bills in our wallets were
received in change. Merchants generally don't hand out dollar coins. We
typically leave home in the morning with yesterday's bills still in our
wallet, so they really do circulate. That's why they wear out. People like
to use them. If we started receiving dollar coins in change, the tendency
would be to dump them like along with our other coins at the end of the day
and leave home the next day with no coins. The coins eventually would end
up being cashed in, if that's considered circulating.

Personally, the prospect of carrying four dollar coins received in change
would be less attractive than receiving four paper bills, which would be
nearly invisible in my wallet. We are used to our coins having minimal
purchasing power in themselves, so instead of carrying a pocket full of
mixed change, most people make their cash payments with bills-- even dollar
bills.

I find it foolish in a government that often changes dramatically every four
years, that some coin advocates are projecting savings over a 30-year
period. We can't be sure what things will be like a few years ahead, let
alone 30 years from now when using actual cash may have become quaint and
most of those long-lasting dollar coins will still be in federal storage
vaults.

So while people may indeed get used to not having paper dollars, they may
not embrace dollar coins as easily. It will have to start with the
merchants, who are the source of most of the change we carry. Will they
automatically use dollar coins if increased production of $2 bills occurs
with the demise of the $1 bill? Or might they prefer handing out $2 bills
and quarters in change instead? I doubt the Congressional coin proponents
have looked much beyond their coarse statistics and examined some of the
human factors involved.

[oly]

On Oct 25, 6:04 pm, "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> "Padraic Brown" <lurien...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> human factors involved.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

More to the point, America is about government serving the people, not
vice versa. Americans like dollar bills. Maybe in France some third-
generation bureaucrat can dictate these things to the Froggies; maybe
in England some public school bureaucratic pin-head can dictate these
things to the plebes; but the American governmental ideal is still to
serve the people in the approximately way they want to be served. 99%
of the American people want one dollar bills as they have existed for
the last eighty years or so. Period, amen, end-of-story.

Congressional coin proponents are a vested interest unconcerned about
anything except their narrow personal economic interest.

oly

[Bremick]

"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:78ed6b82-eb9c-426a...@x21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

_____________

I totally agree with what you say. Sadly, the powers we elected eventually
will claim they know what's best for us in this issue, regardless of what
the populace may prefer-- not having ever asked. Imagine the reaction if
Canadians were told, without being consulted, they would have to drive on
the left beginning in 2012 to neutralize road wear. We already saw what the
American response was when our leaders tried to force metric system into our
daily routine because others used it. I wonder what the GOP candidates'
reaction would be to a surprise debate question on their views of converting
to the metric system. Talk about some squirming and glances to their
handlers.........

[oly]

On Oct 25, 8:28 pm, "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message

> handlers.........- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

A good Republican operative would never ever use a ruler and rarely
use a scales. Pocket calculator and computer with internet access are
the tools of choice for making money the approved American financial
paper way.

Most coin dealers (who would possibly use a scales with regularity)
probably lean to the right, but damn!!! Their little scales typically
measure in those pesky damn grams!!! It's a commie plot hatched in
France and China!!! Even the Red Book references them grams!!!

I would guess that Dr. Ron Paul (as a physician) would essentially
understand the metric system, but the rest of them, I sure doubt it.

oly
-----------------
I'm Republican born, Republican bred... when I die (can't be soon
enough for some of you RCC folks, I'm certain) I'll be Republican
dead!!!

[Ice Torch]

The argument for coins, when a denomination becomes heavily used, is
that they last longer than notes/bills and so save money. Or
alternatively you could use polymer bills/notes. There's an argument
about democracy there too, of course - to want extent do your leaders
lead from the front, and to what extent do they serve? If the
instincts of the majority are TOO conservative, then perhaps at times
they need to be led by the nose? You can see we are having this debate
in the UK at the moment: should the public be allowed to vote again on
whether to stay in the EU, or is that all done and dusted?

Phil.

[Ice Torch]

On Oct 26, 1:04 am, "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Personally, the prospect of carrying four dollar coins received in change
> would be less attractive than receiving four paper bills, which would be
> nearly invisible in my wallet.  
>

> Will they
> automatically use dollar coins if increased production of $2 bills occurs
> with the demise of the $1 bill?  Or might they prefer handing out $2 bills
> and quarters in change instead?

After the pound coin was introduced in the UK in 1983, the pound note
was gradually withdrawn, so we had to get used to it. But the pound
coin is thick and heavy and weighs 9.5g, so four of them in my pocket,
as change from a five pound note, were a nuisance. We had to wait
until 1997 for the two pound coin, which weighs 12g, so 24g in your
pocket (two x two pound coin) is much preferable to 38g (four x one
pound coin), and I'm happy with the situation now. Maybe the US should
introduce two dollar coins too?

Phil.

[oly]

> Phil.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

It is too bad that the President isn't required to appear before
Congress for "Question Time" the way the Prime Minister is required to
stand before Parliament; it is too bad that the size of Congress isn't
expanded so that the ratio of Members to the Total Population isn't
more like that in the UK Parliament (which I believe is something like
650 members for a population of 60 million).

oly

[Padraic Brown]

On Oct 25, 8:04 pm, "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> "Padraic Brown" <lurien...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Something would have to fill the vacuum -- I think we *might* see an
increased use of
$2 notes; and I think we'd keep using the twenties that the ATM spits
out
as well as fives and tens. I do think dollar coins would see
astronomically
higher circulation rates *as compared to now*, but possibly not so
high as
dollar notes enjoy now. But untill the time comes, all is speculation.

I do think we will forget all about dollar notes within a year or two
of their
dissapearance from circulation. Much like what has happened in
Canuckistan.
I was there a few years ago and spent some dollar notes and the big
nickel
dollars. The restaurant and shop keepers oohed and aahed and said they
remembered when there were still dollar notes ...

I think it would be similar to some of the reactions we read about in
RCC when
half dollars or silver certs are spent. Ohh, ahh -- why, I remember
when I were a
lad...

> Today, most of the dollar bills in our wallets were
> received in change.  Merchants generally don't hand out dollar coins.  We
> typically leave home in the morning with yesterday's bills still in our
> wallet, so they really do circulate.  

Indeed. I personally don't spend anything lower than a ten or a
twenty. Everything
else goes in a box. Every month or two, the coins go in the machine at
the bank
for deposit; the dollar notes either get deposited or changed for
something more
manageable. The only coins I spend with any regularly are dollar
coins. I usually
leave those for tips or else in vending machines or else for small
transactions of
two or three dollars.

Chalk it up to the plummet in dollar value.

> That's why they wear out.  People like
> to use them.  

I hate using them. You can't really *buy* anything for a dollar
anymore. Even in
the vending machines at work, the prices have all gone up to $1.50 --
WAY too
much for a packet of chips. And not to mention, the wanks at the
vending co
haven't modified the bill acceptor to accept more than one dollar
note...

I don't think people "like to" use them. At present, there is simply
no alternative.
The alternative that exists is one you have to seek out and
specifically ask for.
Most people aren't that willing to go to a bank just to get dollar
coins. I don't go
out of my way to get dollar coins. If the teller happens to have some
when I'm
there, all well and good!

> If we started receiving dollar coins in change, the tendency
> would be to dump them like along with our other coins at the end of the day
> and leave home the next day with no coins.  The coins eventually would end
> up being cashed in, if that's considered circulating.

Some yes. I do think there would be a far greater likelihood of those
dollar coins
getting spent during the day the way dollar notes are now. Even if at
the end of
the day, all the remaining coins and low value notes get tossed in a
box.

> Personally, the prospect of carrying four dollar coins received in change
> would be less attractive than receiving four paper bills, which would be
> nearly invisible in my wallet.

An old canard. I know this specific argument was hashed out and
rebuffed back
in the late 90s when the brassbux first came out.

>  We are used to our coins having minimal
> purchasing power in themselves, so instead of carrying a pocket full of
> mixed change, most people make their cash payments with bills-- even dollar
> bills.

I am now used to most of our banknotes having minimal puchasing power!
I can
just remember when a dollar had some purchasing power. Kids today will
probably barely be able to recall when $10 had much purchasing power.

> I find it foolish in a government that often changes dramatically every four
> years, that some coin advocates are projecting savings over a 30-year
> period.  We can't be sure what things will be like a few years ahead, let
> alone 30 years from now when using actual cash may have become quaint and
> most of those long-lasting dollar coins will still be in federal storage
> vaults.

Another tired argument. Suffice to say that for the forseeable
future, cash will
still be king as it is always has current and immediate value. Don't
have to
wait for checks to clear or Spraypal to screw up or credit accounts to
get
sorted out. Ease of use, no devices required, no net access required,
no
possibility for piracy or identity theft; especially for small
transactions will
ensure you get to spend cash for a long while to come.

> So while people may indeed get used to not having paper dollars, they may
> not embrace dollar coins as easily.

"Embracing" dollar coins was the never at issue. There simply won't be
a
choice. You either use the coins or you don't. Just like now -- you
either
use the rags or you don't.

>  It will have to start with the
> merchants, who are the source of most of the change we carry.  Will they
> automatically use dollar coins if increased production of $2 bills occurs
> with the demise of the $1 bill?  Or might they prefer handing out $2 bills
> and quarters in change instead?  I doubt the Congressional coin proponents
> have looked much beyond their coarse statistics and examined some of the
> human factors involved.

Me, I don't think the dollar note is going to go away. Crane and their
lobby in
Congress and the fact that they are based in Kennedy Kountry spell
continued
success and long life for the dollar note. Should the dollar note go
away, I am
*sure* that some political finnagling shall have taken place to the
effect that
$2 notes will be rolled out in their zillions. It is entirely possible
that the long
time back-benching deuce will come to the fore and take over where the
dollar
rag left off. If a more radical approach is taken where the 1, 2 and 5
dollar
notes are terminated, then I don't think there will be any choice at
all but for
banks, merchants and people alike to use 1 and 5 dollar coins --
unless you
like getting close to a roll of quarters in change to go with that
over-priced,
under-weight snickers bar.

Padraic