Differences between caving and climbing equipment
D. Moss
other differences are there between the equipment used by
cavers and climbers?
Cheers
David
Richard Heath
The main differences I have noticed are:
* Caving gear is wetter and muddier
* Cavers use less Lycra
* Cavers wear wellies rather than painful, brightly coloured boots.
* Cavers never carry a toothbrush to clean holds
* If you use a ladder when climbing it is considered cheating, but in
caving it is ok!
HTH
Rich
-------------------------------
Crag and Wall Guides
http://www.york.ac.uk/~socs169/
Roger Peppe
> Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
> other differences are there between the equipment used by
> cavers and climbers?
cavers' equipment is more muddy.
Steve Pardoe
D. Moss wrote in message <6usun8$hno...@leeds.ac.uk>...
>Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>other differences are there between the equipment used by
>cavers and climbers?
Cavers don't seem to feel that it's "soft" to wear a helmet ;-)
Steve
David Cantrell
>Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>other differences are there between the equipment used by
>cavers and climbers?
Boots
Cavers wear their waterproofs
The helmets (caving helmets seem more like builders' helmets)
Climbers don't carry scuba gear ;-)
--
David Cantrell, part-time Unix/perl/SQL/java techie
full-time chef/musician/homebrewer
http://www.ThePentagon.com/NukeEmUp
Matthew Hinkley
(sorry)
matt :-)
Doc Morgan
> Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
> other differences are there between the equipment used by
> cavers and climbers?
>
> Cheers
> David
OK it looks like you're not going to get a sensible answer out of this
lot so I better give you the info you need. I presume you were referring
to hardware as opposed to the reason why cavers wear wellies over rubber
slippers :-)
Climbing gear (traditionally in the UK) is secondary to the physical act
of doing the climbing. You climb to the limit of the risk you feel
capable of taking and hope to get to the top without ever needing to
test your kit. The idea is that should everything go wrong then the gear
will hopefully keep you alive (e.g. in the event of a fall). Thus the
gear is designed principally to be part of a dynamic system that for 99%
of the time is not needed (hence it should be as light weight as
possible). Abseiling and prussiking are usually thought of as
techniques needed to get out of trouble so again the gear is compromised
in the name of weight and size (more on that below).
Caving gear on the other hand is the means to an end. As soon as a cave
gets to vertical to free climb (whether up or down) then cavers will
employ any means to surpass the obstacle. Since rescue from a cave is
(on the whole) somewhat more difficult than from a crag/mountain
techniques have been developed that minimise risk at the expense of size
and weight.
Primary differences
Rope
Climbing- Dynamic high degree of shock absorption so you don't break in
half during a fall
Caving-Static 2-5% stretch so that when you abseil down a 420 m shaft
(it really exists) you don't end up yo-yoing the last 50m thus breaking
both legs in the process.
Harness
Climbing-lightweight with high attachment point. Will hold you in a
sitting position but uncomfortable for any length of time.
Caving- hard wearing and once its on it stays on (fixed in the middle
with a screw link NOT a Krab). Low attachment point for attachment
maximum efficiency when prussiking. Also uncomfortable to hang in but
normally used with a chest harness.
Abseiling devices
Climbing- figure of 8, stichplate etc. Lightweight but not much use on
real long pitches. Also run the risk of dropping them at change overs
since you have to completely remove them to swap ropes (and they may be
v hot)
Caving- any number of specialist things but have in common that they can
be threaded without ever removing them from the fixed link on the
harness (so you can't lose then). Most have variable friction capability
for different rope sizes and length of pitch. Some have a sort of
autoblock function to help when hanging around in space trying to find
and fix the next anchor or to stop you bottoming out should a rock whack
you on the head. In the absence of an autoblock it is often advisable to
use a shunt while abseiling for the reasons just given (and its nice to
have a second point of contact).
Prussiking
Climbers usually carry a couple of loops of cord in the event that a
prussik might be necessary (glacier work). These are quick, easy to use
and adequate for the purpose they might be needed for. Try ascending a
free hanging rope for more that 1ß0 metres though and you will soon get
pissed off.
Cavers use 2 or 3 mechanical prussiks to enable them to quickly and
safely climb a fixed rope. One is fixed between the chest and sit
harness the other is free floating with a foot loop and a safety line to
the sit harness. Climbing is done by a sit-stand movement which is damn
near impossible to describe in words...it is known as the frog
technique. Other techniques are also used but are less common in the UK
& Europe.
Belays
Climbers (used to) use natural features with the aid of slings and
various chocks, pitons and camming devices to protect them should they
fall and for securing stances.
Cavers will also use such things where possible (particularly during
exploration) but will normally put in a fixed anchor in frequently used
caves. Fixed anchors range from a scaffold pole wedged across a passage,
to adhesive fixed P hangers.
Carabiners
Climbers rarely use steel biners.... a caver may use them depending on
function. Many cavers use only alloy these days.
So there you have it. In a nut shell. Sorry about using up bandwidth I
will shut up now.
No I won't.....
before anyone tries to be clever there are many instances where the kit
used in both activities actually crosses over. Expedition climbs in the
Himalayas for instance would never rely on prussik knots to climb fixed
ropes--they use the same kit as cavers; aid climbing and bolted routes
sees a similar convergence of some of the kit; cavers will often climb
up to explore new leads using exactly the same kit as a surface climber
would.....etc etc. What I have outlined is only some rough ideas based
on personal experience. But I will conclude by saying that I have one
full set of kit for caving and one full set for climbing. I do not mix
the 2 (with the exception of a couple of krabs on rare occasions)
Any more questions?
Jo
- have to have beards - to catch moisture in case they get thirsty
whilst wedged in a hole.
- have to be totally uncolour coordinated - so they can see each other
easily, in dim light.
- will be the one crawling around under your stool in the pub
Climbers;
- have concubine tendancies towards shoe size
- gesticulate to the god nadine, when congregated for prayer whilst
the wine flows.
- don't like getting dirty
sorry haven't got anymore time - have to see a man about a cheque !
Jo
Doc Morgan
> Cavers
>
> - have to have beards - to catch moisture in case they get thirsty
> whilst wedged in a hole.
> Climbers;
>
> - have concubine tendancies towards shoe size
>
its true--
I have a beard--that makes me a caver
and
I can hardly wear my climbing boots cause they're so damn small--that
makes me a climber
maybe I am a cliver or perhaps a camber
>sorry haven't got anymore time - have to see a man about a cheque !
Now about that cheque......
please make it payable to ''Dr. M. Morgan (assistant sudscription office
uk.rec.climbing)''
Andy 19376
Doc Morgan writes:>
>D. Moss wrote:
>
>> Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>> other differences are there between the equipment used by
>> cavers and climbers?
>>
>> Cheers
>> David
>
>OK it looks like you're not going to get a sensible answer out of this
>lot so I better give you the info you need. I presume you were referring
>to hardware as opposed to the reason why cavers wear wellies over rubber
>slippers :-)
<big snip (sorry)>
he then procceeded to list the diffs. between caving & climbing equipment as
well as I've ever seen. But, I heard it summed up very well (Ithink by Rob
Parker) that caving equipment was all about fall prevention, whereas climbing
was all about fall protection.
And like the good Doctor I also have 2 sets of equipment and they never get
mixed.
Andy. (who started climbing purely to push his caving further.)
a...@theroaches.cs.keele.ac.uk
* Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
* other differences are there between the equipment used by
* cavers and climbers?
Firstly, climbers tend to take better care of their gear - caving gear is
usually scratched, battered and in many cases retired climbing gear.
Second, cavers tend to use mechanical, ratchet operated
belay/descending equipment, as opposed to the climbers belay plates and
figure eight descenders. Ladders are also extensively [There's an idea for
those tricky E no's :^)]
Third, cavers are notoriously fashion unconscious, you'll see no Lycra or
bold colours in a cave, only boiler suits and head torches! :^)
Cavers climb in Wellies, rather than the climbers favored rock boots. Just
the thing for those slippery waterfall climbs!
Lastly, any caver worth his salt will include in his equipment a large bushy
beard capable of housing a badger; this is used for storing food and
other necessities (spare ropes?) - a definite requirement for those gruelling 12 hour
epics. ( :^) or :^| you decide!)
Been a couple of times - never again: the beard just didn't suit me!
_____ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
/| | { `There is no failure, except in no longer trying.' :
/_||\ || {~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:
/ || \|| <><><> {'mail : a...@TheRoaches.cs.keele.ac.uk :
{Snail : Dept of Comp. Science, Keele Uni., Staffs, UK. :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
a...@theroaches.cs.keele.ac.uk
* Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
* other differences are there between the equipment used by
* cavers and climbers
If newsgroups are considered equipment (you can potentially use them to
gather info) I've just checked out the uk.rec.caving ng, and as I suspected,
most of the articles are relevant to caving. ;^]
a...@theroaches.cs.keele.ac.uk
* Cavers don't seem to feel that it's "soft" to wear a helmet ;-)
Or is it just that they don't have a bracket on their foreheads to clip
their lamps to?
Martin Richardson
Cavers dive into water.
Martin Richardson mar...@thequiff.demon.co.uk
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Welcome to the Quiff (~
The magic words are squeamish ossifrage
Fax 0870 055 4998
a.do...@dundee.ac.uk
> Climbers;
>
> - gesticulate to the god nadine, when congregated for prayer whilst
> the wine flows.
Pardon?
al
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Paul Brooks
Richard Heath wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, D. Moss wrote:
>>
>>
>
>The main differences I have noticed are:
>
> * Caving gear is wetter and muddier
>
> * Cavers use less Lycra
>
> * Cavers wear wellies rather than painful, brightly coloured boots.
>
> * Cavers never carry a toothbrush to clean holds
>
> * If you use a ladder when climbing it is considered cheating, but in
> caving it is ok!
Also you are allowed to use your knees, elbows, arse and any other part of
your anatomy you are not supposed to when climbing.
Paul Brooks
Paul....@dial.pipex.com
Paul Brooks
Doc Morgan wrote in message
<3612388B...@no-spam.ilpoe.uni-stuttgart.de>...
>D. Moss wrote:
>
>> Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>> other differences are there between the equipment used by
>> cavers and climbers?
>
>lot so I better give you the info you need. I presume you were referring
>to hardware as opposed to the reason why cavers wear wellies over rubber
>slippers :-)
Then a very complete description of the differences.
>But I will conclude by saying that I have one
>full set of kit for caving and one full set for climbing. I do not mix
>the 2 (with the exception of a couple of krabs on rare occasions)
I also have completely separate kit for climbing and caving with the strange
exception of helmet. As there is no standard for caving helmets, they are
essentially climbing helmets with a lamp bracket (except for the odd weird
Yank who uses a cycle helmet). This means I either don't use a helmet for
climbing or look a complete dork in either my Speleotechnics (battered
beyond recognition with a Maglite strapped to the side) or Petzl (a very
nice Ecrin with a permanently fitted Duo head torch - and soot marks from
the carbide lamp). Thanks for the reminder that I really must remedy the
situation - watch out credit card.
Paul Brooks
Paul....@dial.pipex.com
Paul Brooks
kit.
Cavers like to adorn themselves in muddy / worn out / home made kit.
The finer details are all a consequence of the above.
D. Moss wrote in message <6usun8$hno...@leeds.ac.uk>...
>Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>other differences are there between the equipment used by
>cavers and climbers?
>
>Cheers
>David
Paul Brooks
Paul....@dial.pipex.com
Ben
>I have a beard--that makes me a caver
I heard a story once...about a bloke who got his beard caught in a Petzl
Stop....I thought it was great.
Cheers.
Ben (Does not have a beard) Palmer.
"The Ultimate Good Is To Not Be Afraid" - Rob Parker.
Peter Clinch
>
> Cavers use their knees.
Ah, it must be caving side making naughty suggestions when I use mine
climbing...
> Cavers dive into water.
Cave diving is *not* to be regarded as standard practice. You can tell
cave divers by the way they come with lobotomy scars and have a nasty
habit of being dead. Most cavers don't dive in, they scream with agony
as the water gets progressively deeper up to *that* level.
Just as a minor supplement to Doc's Sensible Answer, caving
harnesses/belts are made with fabrics where resistance to acid or
alkaline exposure from battery leaks is a factor. Latest ones are
resistant to both.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Richard Heath
>
> Richard Heath wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> > * If you use a ladder when climbing it is considered cheating, but in
> > caving it is ok!
>
> Also you are allowed to use your knees, elbows, arse and any other part of
> your anatomy you are not supposed to when climbing.
>
I've never been told I can't use my elbows, knees and arse when climbing.
;)
In fact, my whole is based round them!
Bugger.
John Dalrymple
wrote:
>On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Paul Brooks wrote:
... snip ..
>
>I've never been told I can't use my elbows, knees and arse when climbing.
>;)
>
>In fact, my whole is based round them!
Are you sure you spelt whole properly?
JDal
Richard Heath
Ok, that should have read 'whole technique'!
Whoops.
Rich
------------------------------
Crag and Wall Guides
http://www.york.ac.uk/socs169/
a...@theroaches.cs.keele.ac.uk
* On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, John Dalrymple wrote:
...
* Ok, that should have read 'whole technique'!
^^^^^
If that's misspelt as well, then we must be back onto caving again (or
something infinitely more pleasurable than caving!!). ;^)
Michael Spackman
Morgan <m...@no-spam.ilpoe.uni-stuttgart.de> writes
>D. Moss wrote:
>
>> Other than obvious differences in types of ropes used, what
>> other differences are there between the equipment used by
>> cavers and climbers?
>>
>> Cheers
>> David
>
>OK it looks like you're not going to get a sensible answer out of this
>lot so I better give you the info you need. I presume you were referring
>to hardware as opposed to the reason why cavers wear wellies over rubber
>slippers :-)
>
>Any more questions?
>
>Is there a big difference in 'philosphy' too? I once went to an
evening where members of the university's caving and climbing clubs gave
slide shows on how they'd spent their grants from some trust. All were
impressive, but there was a hilarious contrast between the climbers as
free spirits, with almost nothing planned more than a day ahead and
improvisation the rule, and the cavers who would have put the SAS to
shame with their approach to training, planning, mapping their
explorations and so on.
Incidentally the one time I was taken caving (enjoyed it, but no time to
take it up) I think the krabs were steel rather than alloy. Is that the
norm?
Mike
Paul Brooks
Peter Clinch wrote in message <36135367...@dundee.ac.uk>...
>
>Just as a minor supplement to Doc's Sensible Answer, caving
>harnesses/belts are made with fabrics where resistance to acid or
>alkaline exposure from battery leaks is a factor. Latest ones are
>resistant to both.
>
There was a theory that if you caved with a lead-acid lamp you should use a
polyester harness and if you used alkali lamps you should use nylon. This is
a very dodgy idea. The only way is to ensure you use a system which prevents
any electrolyte leaking. Your ropes are likely to be in the same heap of
gear.
Paul Brooks
Paul....@dial.pipex.com
Peter Clinch
> Is there a big difference in 'philosphy' too? I once went to an
> evening where members of the university's caving and climbing clubs gave
> slide shows on how they'd spent their grants from some trust. All were
> impressive, but there was a hilarious contrast between the climbers as
> free spirits, with almost nothing planned more than a day ahead and
> improvisation the rule, and the cavers who would have put the SAS to
> shame with their approach to training, planning, mapping their
> explorations and so on.
Much easier to get lost underground, and much harder to get data on
unknown areas ("outside" you can buy a map, or at worse pick up
satellite pictures) and far fewer opportunities to just avoid obstacles
rather than dig through or bolt around. Also much harder to get gear to
remote points (I never ceased to be amazed at how some of the scaffold
poles and fixed ladders in caves actually got inside), more dangerous in
many cases and rescue far more difficult, so it's just plain necessity
in many cases.
> Incidentally the one time I was taken caving (enjoyed it, but no time to
> take it up) I think the krabs were steel rather than alloy. Is that the
> norm?
Quite often: I use steel. The main reason is that caving gear is far
more likely to be in areas of Monster Abrasion and steel stuff is just
hardier. A friend did a through-trip in Coniston Coppermines Italian
hitching on an alloy krab, and it was at *least* 20% thinner when he got
out!
Peter Clinch
It isn't a very dodgy idea, it's a belt and braces idea. Since you
can't 100% ensure that you won't get a leak when you scrape the battery
through a series of long, constricted rocky crawls (it's unlikely, but
nevertheless possible, you'll end up with a problem), then it makes very
good sense that the harness which is worn *right next to* the battery
pack is resistant to anything leaking out. The rope is likely to be in
a separate bag, as opposed to rubbing against it with every step you
take. Yes, it's a better idea not to have a leak, but if the harness
can be made resistant to leaks without compromising its ability to hold
you I can't see why that's "very dodgy". It's a better idea not to
inflammables to naked flames, but that doesn't mean fireproofing is a
bad thing.
Source for latest harnesses being resistant to both was the spiel on my
troll belay belt, which is made of same.