Citroen Picasso 55 reg - vibrations

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi everyone,

Just after a quick bit of advice please and guidence,

My car - citreon picasso 55 reg, has started vibrating/juddering when using
first gear to pull away.
It doesnt do it on all the other 4 gears.

If i put the gas right down this seem to cure the judder so im thinking
perhaps more on the lines of some gas valve or something like that but cant
be sure? just wanted an idea before i look at taking it to a garage and
getting stitched up!

Any help most appriciated.

Thanks

Peter

[Chris Whelan]

Does it do it in reverse? Is it only when your foot is on the cluch pedal?

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[Peter Jenkins]

"Chris Whelan" <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote in message
news:kn7e65$vhe$1...@dont-email.me...

Hi Chris,

Thanks for reply, yes I have just checked, it is still juddery in reverse
gear.
Again, once set off everything seems to be normal in the other gears, no
grinding noises can be heard when changing or engaging the gears.

Any ideas to help pinpoint most grateful.

Thanks
Peter

[Peter Jenkins]

"Peter Jenkins" <a...@bb.com> wrote in message
news:a9Rlt.341458$Yp1....@en-nntp-13.dc1.easynews.com...

>
> "Chris Whelan" <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:kn7e65$vhe$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 09:00:07 +0100, Peter Jenkins wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Just after a quick bit of advice please and guidence,
>>>
>>> My car - citreon picasso 55 reg, has started vibrating/juddering when
>>> using first gear to pull away.
>>> It doesnt do it on all the other 4 gears.
>>>
>>> If i put the gas right down this seem to cure the judder so im thinking
>>> perhaps more on the lines of some gas valve or something like that but
>>> cant be sure? just wanted an idea before i look at taking it to a
>>> garage and getting stitched up!
>>>
>>> Any help most appriciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> Does it do it in reverse?

>>Is it only when your foot is on the cluch pedal?

Forgot this bit, yes only when changing into first and reverse, going
upwards (taking foot off) the pedal.
If it does happen in the other gears, its not noticable.

I guess you could say its like ( but not) the engine is stalling, where you
feel the car shudder, but its more of the whole car is shaking lol. really
hard to explain!

Thanks for help

[Chris Whelan]

Your description makes it seem more like clutch judder than anything.

This can be caused by oil leaking into the clutch, or a distorted
flywheel. In either case, if the car drives OK otherwise, the best thing
to do is to live with it. It's not something that's likely to suddenly
fail.

You can often modify your driving technique to mask things like this.

[Peter Jenkins]

"Chris Whelan" <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote in message

news:kn8nv6$m1r$1...@dont-email.me...

Thanks Chris,

We have not noticed any oil out on the road, or would this not been seen?

If it is oil leaking would that not be slightly dangerous in case it caught
alight ? - sorry not that technical lol.

Im not sure what the flywheel is, would this be easy to rectify?
How much would a fix at the local garage cost do you reckon.

Cheers again!

[Chris Whelan]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 21:44:54 +0100, Peter Jenkins wrote:

[...]

> We have not noticed any oil out on the road, or would this not been
> seen?

The amount involved would be small, and would not be seen externally.

> If it is oil leaking would that not be slightly dangerous in case it
> caught alight ? - sorry not that technical lol.

The hottest the oil gets is in the engine, and it doesn't catch light
there!

> Im not sure what the flywheel is, would this be easy to rectify?

No.

GIYF!

http://www.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm

> How much would a fix at the local garage cost do you reckon.

More than is worth paying, if you can live with it.

It wouldn't be possible to diagnose properly with dismantling, and there
would be no point in removing the clutch to access the flywheel, and not
renewing it.

The labour time for flywheel removal is between six and seven hours,
depending on which engine it has. If there is oil in the clutch, it will
then either need an engine crankshaft oil seal replaced, or the gearbox
oil seal. At this point,total repair cost will easily exceed the value of
the vehicle.

If you really can't 'drive around' the fault, part-exchange it for
something else, preferably not French!

[David]

Have you got a dual-mass flywheel, these can give those symptoms when
they are failing ?

David

[Ian Dalziel]

Shouldn't hold your breath for an answer - he didn't know he had a
flywheel at all prior to this discussion! :-)

--

Ian D

[Chris Whelan]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 13:36:38 +0100, David wrote:

[...]

> Have you got a dual-mass flywheel, these can give those symptoms when
> they are failing ?

(As the OP doesn't know what a flywheel is, I thought I would answer.)

First thing I checked on Autodata, but it doesn't seem that either petrol
or diesel variants of that year have DMF; it's possible some variants
might however. (Later Picassos do.)

Usual initial DMF failure symptoms are audible. If it wanted a DMF, my
advice would still be to out it.

[David]

On 19/05/2013 14:27, Chris Whelan wrote:
> On Sun, 19 May 2013 13:36:38 +0100, David wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Have you got a dual-mass flywheel, these can give those symptoms when
>> they are failing ?
>
> (As the OP doesn't know what a flywheel is, I thought I would answer.)

Oops, missed that bit. ;-))

>
> First thing I checked on Autodata, but it doesn't seem that either petrol
> or diesel variants of that year have DMF; it's possible some variants
> might however. (Later Picassos do.)
>
> Usual initial DMF failure symptoms are audible. If it wanted a DMF, my
> advice would still be to out it.
>
> Chris
>

I once had a DMF cause judder, but was not creating any unusual noises.

Maybe the car has a loose or damaged engine / gearbox mount ?

David

[Mike P]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 09:00:07 +0100, Peter Jenkins panted, in an erotic
manner:

Peter,

try registering on the FrenchCarforum - www.frenchcarforum.co.uk and
asking there, you'll get helpful friendly advice without the predjudice
of "It's French, therefore it's shit" that you will get here.

Depends which engine/gearbox combo you have really? Is it a petrol?
Diesel? etc..



--
Mike P

[Mike P]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 13:27:36 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
manner:

Why? Citroen Indies will do the job for less than £400 these days..
either converting to SMF or slightly more for a DMF. It seems rather
bizarre to shift a car that's good in every other way for a £400 clutch
job, which you might have to have done on your next purchase anyway..




--
Mike P

[Mike P]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 15:15:04 +0100, David panted, in an erotic manner:

I suspect the lower rear engine mount rubber, or the bush where it mounts
on to the engine is failing, especially if it's a diesel. They tend to
get a bit oily down there. Mine's gone on the Berlingo.. £16 and £20 mins
to replace with a press..




--
Mike P

[Mike P]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 08:35:17 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
manner:

> On Sat, 18 May 2013 21:44:54 +0100, Peter Jenkins wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> We have not noticed any oil out on the road, or would this not been
>> seen?
>
> The amount involved would be small, and would not be seen externally.
>
>> If it is oil leaking would that not be slightly dangerous in case it
>> caught alight ? - sorry not that technical lol.
>
> The hottest the oil gets is in the engine, and it doesn't catch light
> there!
>
>> Im not sure what the flywheel is, would this be easy to rectify?
>
> No.
>
> GIYF!
>
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm
>
>> How much would a fix at the local garage cost do you reckon.
>
> More than is worth paying, if you can live with it.

55 plate Picassos go for between £2500 and £4000

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

> It wouldn't be possible to diagnose properly with dismantling, and there
> would be no point in removing the clutch to access the flywheel, and not
> renewing it.
>
> The labour time for flywheel removal is between six and seven hours,
> depending on which engine it has. If there is oil in the clutch, it will
> then either need an engine crankshaft oil seal replaced, or the gearbox
> oil seal. At this point,total repair cost will easily exceed the value
> of the vehicle.

Utter bollocks. I'd be surprised if *any* of that has happened,
especially if it's the 1.6 or 2.0HDI motor. It'll be the rear engine
mount.

> If you really can't 'drive around' the fault, part-exchange it for
> something else, preferably not French!

Why don't you learn something about the subject and the car in question?
Because it's not a Ford, you appear to have turned stupid.



--
Mike P

[Chris Whelan]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:34:58 +0000, Mike P wrote:

[...]

> Why? Citroen Indies will do the job for less than £400 these days..

Really?

Depending on model, the cheapest price GSF have for a DMF is £360, and
then it's six hours plus labour!

[Peter Jenkins]

"Mike P" <n...@here.com> wrote in message news:knaurs$e1f$1...@dont-email.me...

Guys, thanks very much for all your replies, they are all appreicated and
taken onboard.

My car is a 2.0HDi 5 gear (H-standard)

If it helps, we also have a petrol car which does this bizzare judder when
pulling away in first, but usually thats only on a cold morning and on the
first pull away - it is a rareity.
Sounding silly perhaps, but no i dont really know how the gearbox is put
together, but i know they are pretty expensive so hence the worry.

I did wonder if perhaps it was due to the poor quaility deisel supermarket
stuff, or the cheap hightstreet oil, ?

The clutch itself does feel normal, wouldnt say it was weak when lifting the
foot up or any heavier, the point of contact still seems to be in the usual
position - not going up highter or anytihng.

Thanks again for your help everyone!

[Mike P]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:45:09 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
manner:

> On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:34:58 +0000, Mike P wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Why? Citroen Indies will do the job for less than £400 these days..
>
> Really?
>
> Depending on model, the cheapest price GSF have for a DMF is £360, and
> then it's six hours plus labour!

It's still £150 more than I got an LUK DMF kit for..



--
Mike P

[Chris Whelan]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 19:00:05 +0000, Mike P wrote:

[...]

>>> Why? Citroen Indies will do the job for less than £400 these days..
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> Depending on model, the cheapest price GSF have for a DMF is £360, and
>> then it's six hours plus labour!
>
> It's still £150 more than I got an LUK DMF kit for..

So £210 for the DMF; that means a labour charge for fitting it of less
than £190. (For a six hour plus job.)

Cheapest hourly rate around here is £50; add in the cost of a clutch kit
(which it would be madness not to fit at the same time) and your estimate
of less than £400 seems hard to achieve.

[Mike P]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 20:38:44 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
manner:

Well if you will believe everything autodata says, and not go to a decent
Indy that won't rip you off and can do the job in half the time, then so
be it..

My Indy just did me a timing belt, waterpump and tensioners using genuine
parts on an 04 Berlingo for £210 all in. That's £220 cheaper than the
Citroen dealer down the road from me wanted.

I sat and watched him do it. It took him an hour and 15 mins.




--
Mike P

[Chris Whelan]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 20:31:28 +0000, Mike P wrote:

> On Mon, 20 May 2013 20:38:44 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
> manner:
>
>> On Mon, 20 May 2013 19:00:05 +0000, Mike P wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>> Why? Citroen Indies will do the job for less than £400 these days..
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> Depending on model, the cheapest price GSF have for a DMF is £360,
>>>> and then it's six hours plus labour!
>>>
>>> It's still £150 more than I got an LUK DMF kit for..
>>
>> So £210 for the DMF; that means a labour charge for fitting it of less
>> than £190. (For a six hour plus job.)
>>
>> Cheapest hourly rate around here is £50; add in the cost of a clutch
>> kit (which it would be madness not to fit at the same time) and your
>> estimate of less than £400 seems hard to achieve.
>
> Well if you will believe everything autodata says, and not go to a
> decent Indy that won't rip you off and can do the job in half the time,
> then so be it..

Pretty much every non-dealer garage uses Autodata to estimate charges. If
they are able to beat the time quoted, it just covers for those jobs that
for whatever reason go over the time.

> My Indy just did me a timing belt, waterpump and tensioners using
> genuine parts on an 04 Berlingo for £210 all in. That's £220 cheaper
> than the Citroen dealer down the road from me wanted.

I would expect an independent to charge half the price a main dealer
would for pretty much any cam belt. There hourly rates are half for a
start, and they won't charge the same price for parts.

The Autodata time for the Berlingo (model-dependent) is 2.4 hours, so at
50 quid an hour he'd charged you £120 for labour.

None of that is relevant to my statement that I don't believe anyone
could do a DMF and cluych on a Picasso for £400; it's not even *best*
mate's rates!

> I sat and watched him do it. It took him an hour and 15 mins.

Perhaps he should have given you £50 quid back ;-)

[Chris Bartram]

Could be a failing DMF, which could fail in spectacular fashion :-/

Any increased rattle, especially at idle?

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi everyone,

Looks like you are all correct with diagnosis.

My clutch flywheel, multi bearing thingy widget is perishing, confirmed by
two independant garages.

My cheapest quote of £350 to fix which includes VAT, this is for the supply
kit and fitting + labour charges.

Fingers crossed it will all be back to normal soon, and i will have a
lighter wallet too arh!!

Cheers guys

Peter.

[Mike P]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 21:16:37 +0100, Peter Jenkins panted, in an erotic
manner:

Good price Peter, I knew it wouldn't be a "write off the car" job..

Hope you get it sorted soon!
all the best






--
Mike P

[Chris Whelan]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 21:16:37 +0100, Peter Jenkins wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Looks like you are all correct with diagnosis.
>
> My clutch flywheel, multi bearing thingy widget is perishing, confirmed
> by two independant garages.

Is that the dual-mass flywheel?

> My cheapest quote of £350 to fix which includes VAT, this is for the
> supply kit and fitting + labour charges.

Does that include a clutch kit? (If not, you should at least consider
changing the clutch at the same time or you might have similar costs in a
short space of time.)

If the £350 includes a dual-mass flywheel and a clutch, I can't see how
it can be done for that price even if the labour was free!

[Chris Whelan]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 22:54:44 +0100, SteveH wrote:

> Mike P <n...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> Good price Peter, I knew it wouldn't be a "write off the car" job..
>

> Hmmm, how much is a 55 plate Picasso worth? - not a lot, I suspect.
>
> However... open market value and value to owner are very different. With
> the latter usually being a multiple of the former.

I based my much-criticised statement here on the belief that with an
older car that is still drivable, if the repair estimate exceeds more
than 50% of its trade-in value, it's better from a financial POV to trade
it in or sell it on.

Depending on the OP's exact model and engine, using non-OEM prices from a
reliable sources, a DMF is in the range of £360-£520, a clutch kit is
£107, and Autodata quote a repair time in the range of 6 to 7 hours.

Assuming £50/hr (no-one in this area works for less than that, and £70 is
more common), this gives a repair cost of between £767 and £977.

If it was mine, I know what I would do...

[Clive George]

On 27/05/2013 08:16, Chris Whelan wrote:

> I based my much-criticised statement here on the belief that with an
> older car that is still drivable, if the repair estimate exceeds more
> than 50% of its trade-in value, it's better from a financial POV to trade
> it in or sell it on.

I drive a car with a value of possibly a couple of hundred quid. It
works, I know its foibles, there aren't nasty surprises waiting for me.
To get a replacement would involve time and effort worth more than the
car is worth, so it's worth spending more than the car is worth on
something which will extend its life usefully.

(that'll probably be the cam belt and clutch at some point).

[Chris Whelan]

Yep, that's fine if it suits you. Over a lifetime of car ownership it
might not be the most cost-effective way however.

[Clive George]

It's probably the most cost-effective given the constraints I have
(hydropneumatic perversion, ability to carry a tandem inside). For a car
to take one to work or go shopping, almost anything would work, so the
pool of available cars is much larger and hence the time and effort to
get a replacement much lower than I would need.

Even ignoring my particular foibles, it's still quite a lot cheaper than
most people's costs - very low capital cost helps enormously here.

(and I do have the advantage that I'm not doing this because I'm
strapped for cash, so if something bad happens I can buy my way out of
trouble without worrying too hard about it. Not happened yet though in
20-odd years.)

[Mike P]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 22:54:44 +0100, SteveH panted, in an erotic manner:

> Mike P <n...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> Good price Peter, I knew it wouldn't be a "write off the car" job..
>

> Hmmm, how much is a 55 plate Picasso worth? - not a lot, I suspect.

Between £2200 and £3000, depending on model and condition.

That might not be a lot to you, but it is to some people.



--
Mike P

[Mike P]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 07:16:41 +0000, Chris Whelan panted, in an erotic
manner:

> On Sun, 26 May 2013 22:54:44 +0100, SteveH wrote:
>
>> Mike P <n...@here.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Good price Peter, I knew it wouldn't be a "write off the car" job..
>>
>> Hmmm, how much is a 55 plate Picasso worth? - not a lot, I suspect.
>>
>> However... open market value and value to owner are very different.
>> With the latter usually being a multiple of the former.
>
> I based my much-criticised statement here on the belief that with an
> older car that is still drivable, if the repair estimate exceeds more
> than 50% of its trade-in value

Yes, but seeing as the car is worth way more than double the cost of the
repair, and your parts costing is incorrect, and your labour rates/times
are incorrect going off what a decent Citroen Indy will charge, it's all
nonsense isn't it?

> Depending on the OP's exact model and engine, using non-OEM prices from
> a reliable sources, a DMF is in the range of £360-£520, a clutch kit is
> £107, and Autodata quote a repair time in the range of 6 to 7 hours.

Clutch kit for a 2.0HDI, £67 inc vat. I'm not sure where you get your
prices from.

> If it was mine, I know what I would do...

So, you'd bin off a car worth between 2 and 3 grand for a, lets say, £400
repair job?

You've more money than sense.


--
Mike P

[Chris Whelan]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 15:05:30 +0000, Mike P wrote:

[...]

>> I based my much-criticised statement here on the belief that with an
>> older car that is still drivable, if the repair estimate exceeds more
>> than 50% of its trade-in value
>
> Yes, but seeing as the car is worth way more than double the cost of the
> repair, and your parts costing is incorrect, and your labour rates/times
> are incorrect going off what a decent Citroen Indy will charge, it's all
> nonsense isn't it?

My parts costings are not incorrect; look them up yourself. (GSF; I
always find them the best guide to parts that are in between rubbish and
OEM.)

Where in the country are you? In the SE, it's hard to find a decent Indy
or mobile who will work for less than £50/hr. Larger garages are £70/hr,
and main dealers £100.

>> Depending on the OP's exact model and engine, using non-OEM prices from
>> a reliable sources, a DMF is in the range of £360-£520, a clutch kit is
>> £107, and Autodata quote a repair time in the range of 6 to 7 hours.
>
> Clutch kit for a 2.0HDI, £67 inc vat. I'm not sure where you get your
> prices from.

Parts GSF; I'm sure cheaper ones are available, but no decent garage
would use them from the POv that they don't want to do the job twice.

>> If it was mine, I know what I would do...
>
> So, you'd bin off a car worth between 2 and 3 grand for a, lets say,
> £400 repair job?

Where did I say that? I said that if the repairs to an older car exceed
50% of the value, it's better to move it on.

If you take your lower valuation, and a more realistic cost of clutch
plus DMF replacement of £1,000, it would be a close call.

I still don't believe that *anyone* will replace the DMF and clutch on a
Picasso for £400. That would be the parts cost if you used the very
cheapest.

> You've more money than sense.

Maybe; I'm pretty sure that over the last half a century my motoring
costs have been significantly lower than my peers however.

[Clive George]

On 27/05/2013 17:00, Chris Whelan wrote:

> Maybe; I'm pretty sure that over the last half a century my motoring
> costs have been significantly lower than my peers however.

Is this a competition?

(I'm probably not one of your peers...)

[Mike P]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:37:09 +0100, SteveH panted, in an erotic manner:

> I'm surprised. My guess would have been half that figure.

Picassos (and Berlingo Multispaces) are bloody useful decent motors and
hold their value surprisingly well. Apart from the multiplexing CANBUS
bollocks, there is nothing complicated about them.

Our 04 Berlingo is a top little car, I'm surprised I like it so much. The
fact I've had it two years rather than two weeks tells you all you need
to know.

Armed with a chinese copy Lexia diagnostic kit, there's little I can't
repair on it myself for the cost of parts.

--
Mike P

[Peter Jenkins]

Thanks very much for the continuing replies!

The part number on the garage quote says KA1422-07 Desc says Supply &
Fit Clutch Kit , £290 then VAT on top to give the £350

My 55 plate 2.0HDi citreon pisacco is in very good conditon inside once
hoovered out and a wipe over at least, and some minor bump marks on the
botton of the rear bodywork on the passenger side - you know the odd scrape
along a wall you cant see!!

On the clock its got almost 90k, enginee runs lovely.

I would be extremely happy with £3k for her, but wouldnt like to take
anything less than £2.5k - does that sound reasonable?

Cheers again folks, the car is going off the garage tomorrow morning, so
fingers and toes all crossed!

Cheers.

PS, im due the words multi or dual mass were used when he was telling me
whats gone wrong.

[Mike P]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 07:06:52 +0000, Chris Whelan wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 20:31:28 +0000, Mike P wrote:

>
> I would expect an independent to charge half the price a main dealer
> would for pretty much any cam belt.

Citroen are doing a "change any timing belt on any Citroen" for £295.

That's hard to beat for any indy. The local one to me near Reading wanted
£435 for doing the same job with the same parts.

I went to the trouble of going up North to get it done, because it needed
a crank pulley as well as a couple of other things. It still came in at
less than £300. Nearly half the price I got quoted down here, so I still
saved just under £240 even including the diesel to get there and back.





--
Mike P