Bleeding brake - nipple sheered
Simon Love
My girlfriend has just had her car serviced and the garage ( Halfords )
sheered off one of the bleed nipples.
The service sheet says that it was sheered off but the brakes were bled
through the rear !
A friend told her that the nipple for the brake that sheered off would not
necessarilly be bled properly and may still be affected by a low boiling
point!
Can anyone shed any light on this. I do not know enough about cars to say.
If this is the case then I shall get back in contact with halfords to sort
it out.
Simon
Mr. J.S. Greystrong
>Hi all,
>
>My girlfriend has just had her car serviced and the garage ( Halfords )
>sheered off one of the bleed nipples.
Well there's your first mistake, going to Halfords.
>The service sheet says that it was sheered off but the brakes were bled
>through the rear !
>
>A friend told her that the nipple for the brake that sheered off would not
>necessarilly be bled properly and may still be affected by a low boiling
>point!
There are ways of bleeding calipers/cylinders without using the bleed
nipples but it's fairly long and involved and I doubt Halfords would
have gone that far. It is more than likely that you've still got
old brake fluid in the car which will boil at a lower point than
new stuff.
>
>Can anyone shed any light on this. I do not know enough about cars to say.
>
>If this is the case then I shall get back in contact with halfords to sort
>it out.
Well if Halfords broke the bleed nipple then they should replace it. They
may have to replace the whole caliper/cylinder though.
John
Simon Love
just accept thats fine sir.
But you see the problem, even supposedly reputably companies like halfords
are not that good. How do you know if the local backstreet garage is any
better.
And don't say main dealers are any better. I have gone to several with my
car only to get things missed ( that I havn't got fixed between services )
not being picked up !
Simon
Mr. J.S. Greystrong wrote in message
<72sivp$ifu$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk>...
>In article <72si00$i04$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, "Simon Love"
<simon...@intersol-uk.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>My girlfriend has just had her car serviced and the garage ( Halfords )
>>sheered off one of the bleed nipples.
>
>Well there's your first mistake, going to Halfords.
>
>
>There are ways of bleeding calipers/cylinders without using the bleed
>nipples but it's fairly long and involved and I doubt Halfords would
>have gone that far. It is more than likely that you've still got
>old brake fluid in the car which will boil at a lower point than
>new stuff.
>>
>
Mr. J.S. Greystrong
>Thanks, I shall check with them on that one and I am not the kind of guy to
>just accept thats fine sir.
>
>But you see the problem, even supposedly reputably companies like halfords
>are not that good. How do you know if the local backstreet garage is any
>better.
Word of mouth usually.
>And don't say main dealers are any better. I have gone to several with my
>car only to get things missed ( that I havn't got fixed between services )
>not being picked up !
The only way I've found is to do it yourself. Much cheaper as well.
John
Will Reeve
The one I use in Oxford is excellent.
Will
Mr. J.S. Greystrong wrote in message
<72sjjp$ifu$2...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk>...
Graham
Greystrong) wrote:
>>Can anyone shed any light on this. I do not know enough about cars to say.
>>
>>If this is the case then I shall get back in contact with halfords to sort
>>it out.
>
>Well if Halfords broke the bleed nipple then they should replace it. They
>may have to replace the whole caliper/cylinder though.
>
>John
To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
esp if it's into alloy. It does not mean they were careless or
negligent and certainly they would not have done it on purpose. Not
the same as knocking a wing mirror off driving it onto the ramp for
example. To their credit they have admitted to doing it, could have
just said nothing, and it proves they did try to do some work on the
brakes !!!!! They were only trying to do work you requested. To my
mind, in a case like this,it is best to try to meet each other half
way, you pay for the new caliper/cylinder, they fit it for no labour,
or similar.
Graham
am018
that most mechanics learn the hard way is sometimes it is better to leave things
alone, yes brake fluid should be changed but to trying shift nipples that haven't
moved for do it can lead you into difficulties. Even when the nipples are free I
have encountered mastercylinders that draw air (particularly on Teves types) and
take a lot of work to get bled properly unless you have pressure bleeding gear.
The DIY route also has its costs -- it takes most apprentice mechanics a couple
of years to develop the right touch -- for the first year or so they shear a lot
of bolts when both slackening and tightening them.
Andy
Chris Wilson
gra...@motors.karoo.co.uk says...
> To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
> nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
> esp if it's into alloy. It does not mean they were careless or
> negligent and certainly they would not have done it on purpose. Not
> the same as knocking a wing mirror off driving it onto the ramp for
> example. To their credit they have admitted to doing it, could have
> just said nothing, and it proves they did try to do some work on the
> brakes !!!!! They were only trying to do work you requested. To my
> mind, in a case like this,it is best to try to meet each other half
> way, you pay for the new caliper/cylinder, they fit it for no labour,
> or similar.
>
> Graham
Even as a Halford,and Quick Fit type place sceptic,I have to say that
a seized nipple is often impossible to remove without a serious risk
of breakage.As Graham says,it's just one of those things.Corrosion on
parts often makes removal and maintenance impossible without damaging
other components.Give them a fair hearing,and see if an amicable
compromise can't be reached.Grahams suggestion sounds most
reasonable.I doubt,if it came to litigation,you would have much of a
case,to be frank.It would be churlish (IMHO) to let things go that
far,I imagine you will be able to come to some mutually satisfactory
arrangement if you keep cool :-)
--
Best Regards,
Chris Wilson
http://www.f3.u-net.com
mailto:ch...@f3.u-net.com
Mr. J.S. Greystrong
>To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
>nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
>esp if it's into alloy.
(snip other reasonable stuff)
I take your point and agree that a compromise is probably the best
solution. However when fixing other peoples cars I've usually taken
the view that if I break something then I have to fix it. If the
bleed nipple was that tight then it may have been better to leave
it and then consult the owner before proceeding.
Some of the above statement may have been written to further discussion
rather than my own personal opinion ;-)
John
Graham
Greystrong) wrote:
>In article <3651f0f...@news.karoo.co.uk>, gra...@motors.karoo.co.uk (Graham) writes:
>
>>To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
>>nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
>>esp if it's into alloy.
>
>(snip other reasonable stuff)
>
>I take your point and agree that a compromise is probably the best
>solution. However when fixing other peoples cars I've usually taken
>the view that if I break something then I have to fix it.
To a degree yes, but if the car has a problem you are asked to fix and
something associated with it is in poor condition or defective then
you cannot be responsible for anything and everything, as long as you
take all the due care necessary. Brakes are a good example be cause
the system all joins up and if you want to replace one part, others
have to be disturbed - some of which may never have been touched since
new. Part of the trouble is customers want to blame you to save
themselves money. Taking the example of the bleed nipple, 20 years ago
a customer would have apologised to you for causing extra work,
knowing you were very busy. Today it is different, with some
customers, if they can con or blame you they will.
>If the bleed nipple was that tight then it may have been better to leave
>it and then consult the owner before proceeding.
Sure, but its a calculated risk every time you put a spanner on a
bolt, most of the time you have to get on and try. If you stopped
every time something was stiff you would never get any work done. How
many times do you get a tight spark plug, You do your best and work it
in and out to free it. One time in a thousand you come un stuck, then
its a case of compromise over cost. Some cv joints use a very fine
thread, taking the nut off damages it, not your fault - a design
fault, so why should the garage stand it? We all expect youngsters
learning the trade will make mistakes and we compensate for that but
problems can occur with the most experienced mechanics through no
fault of their own.
>Some of the above statement may have been written to further discussion
>rather than my own personal opinion ;-)
So over to everyone else.........
Graham
Andy Garman
> On 18 Nov 1998 09:48:19 GMT, jgre...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr. J.S.
> Greystrong) wrote:
>
> >In article <3651f0f...@news.karoo.co.uk>, gra...@motors.karoo.co.uk (Graham) writes:
> >
> >>To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
> >>nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
> >>esp if it's into alloy.
> >
> >(snip other reasonable stuff)
Am I being thick [not for the first time] or would a stud extractor
shift a sheared-off bleed nipple? It's even pre-drilled. If the
alternative's scrapping the entire cylinder, surely Halfords wouldn't mind
a five minute attempt at shifting the remains of the old screw?
Andy.
Steve Hunt
> Today it is different, with some
> customers, if they can con or blame you they will.
Customers? I think you mis-spelled "garages". Why else would there
exist a newsgroup like this one dedicated to DIY car maintenance?
-- Steve
Graham
A lot depends on the size of the nipple (as the actress said to the
bishop) If it was one of the small 8mm spanner size then there would
not be a lot of metal for the extractor to grip without "expanding it"
into the thread. Remember the nipple is seized into the caliper, often
when a bolt head shears off, the tension on the threads has been
removed so the threaded part comes out fairly easily. Of cause if we
know the make of car etc we would know if they are prone to such
problems.
Graham
Graham
wrote:
>gra...@motors.karoo.co.uk (Graham) writes:
>> Today it is different, with some
>> customers, if they can con or blame you they will.
>
>Customers? I think you mis-spelled "garages".
Sorry Steve my news reader must be playing up, I did not see a ;-)
after your comments <grin>
I know there are cowboys out there but not as many as days gone by and
have you ever seen the TV programs about the builders from hell. They
rip off in the thousands of pounds, BUT again not entirely
representative of all builders.
I can only speak from my side, and say I have been conned dozens of
times by customers. Many times claiming you have done something quite
unconnected with the job you did. All the legal rights are now on the
side of the consumer, perhaps rightly, but boy do customers know it.
Perhaps I should have said -
"All the legal rights are now on the side of the CONsumer" :-)
>Why else would there exist a newsgroup like this one
>dedicated to DIY car maintenance?
>
>-- Steve
Some do it to save money, some to give themselves satisfaction, some
enjoy it a change from their 9 - 5 job, some believe they do a better
job. I do my own decorating at home. I do NOT enjoy it, I do NOT do a
better job than a professional but I DO save money !!!! All trades
have a mirror image of DIYers. They also have a mirror in the black
economy. Next time anyone uses the guy down the road, that works from
home, on the side, ask what insurance they carry. Bet its not all
risks, fully comp.
Graham
Chris Wilson
100...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>, an...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk says...
> Am I being thick [not for the first time] or would a stud extractor
> shift a sheared-off bleed nipple? It's even pre-drilled. If the
> alternative's scrapping the entire cylinder, surely Halfords wouldn't mind
> a five minute attempt at shifting the remains of the old screw?
>
> Andy.
Stud extractors sound fine,but the reverse threaded screw type expand
the offending device within the female part.This means they rarely
work.Some have said the splined type,that is hammered into a sized
hole,work better.We (garages) prefer to take no risks with brakes,for
obvious reasons,so usually opt to renew the whole part,unless there is
an overwhelming reason not to.
As the UK follows the US into becoming more litigious,so the cost to
the customer will rise,as it becomes less and less palatable to
attempt a repair,in case things go,or are claimed to have
gone,wrong.Sad but true.
Steve Hunt
> Sorry Steve my news reader must be playing up, I did not see a ;-)
> after your comments <grin>
Graham,
Of course I was being a bit tongue in cheek and I'm sure the
professionals on this group are among the good ones. On the other
hand I have had nightmarish experiences with main dealer servicing
especially. For example, about a year ago a Vauxhall garage left my
vehicle idling unattended while they buggered off for a fag or tea
break or something, and it overheated. Granted, it *shouldn't* have
overheated - no argument there - but equally, leaving an engine
running unattended in a warmish garage is a pretty unwise thing to do,
and something that I (as a rank amateur) would never do. In fact I'm
absolutely anal about checking the temp and oil pressure whenever my
engine is running, and IMHO not doing so is negligent.
And then there was the recent episode when an Isuzu main dealer
replaced my front wheel bearing. They didn't settle the bearing, they
didn't measure the preload, they didn't use the locknut correctly, and
they didn't measure how thick a shim to fit on the freewheeling hub
(in fact, they didn't even refit the old shim, I found it on their
ramp when I went back to complain). The upshot of this is that within
2 miles of collecting the vehicle, the wheelbearing was as loose as a
moose. I went back and had to stand over them and explain their job
to them while they tried again. Even then, they did it by "feel" so I
later decided to take it apart and set the preload correctly. Their
guessed preload was way too low, in fact. To add insult to injury
they'd tighted up the lockscrews so tight that I had to drill one of
them out.
Half the problem I have with garages is that many of them do not
work *by the book* - they go by experience or guesswork, which is
probably fine 95% of the time but the other 5% they screw up.
-- Steve
toby...@earthling.net
it was seized then any garage might of done this. Also, do get it fixed,
especially if it is the front. I have had brake *failure* (ie. no warning!)
because of old fluid and it isn't fun!
On the subject of garages: backstreet garages are less likely to stay in
business if they get a bad reputation. Halfords/main dealers can rely more on
just the fact that they have a known name. Both sets have their "rogues" but
I'd go for a backstreet in preference anytime.
Toby
In article <72sj8p$ioq$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>,
"Simon Love" <simon...@intersol-uk.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks, I shall check with them on that one and I am not the kind of guy to
> just accept thats fine sir.
>
> But you see the problem, even supposedly reputably companies like halfords
> are not that good. How do you know if the local backstreet garage is any
> better.
>
> And don't say main dealers are any better. I have gone to several with my
> car only to get things missed ( that I havn't got fixed between services )
> not being picked up !
>
> Simon
>
> Mr. J.S. Greystrong wrote in message
> <72sivp$ifu$1...@niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk>...
> >In article <72si00$i04$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, "Simon Love"
> <simon...@intersol-uk.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >>Hi all,
> >>
> >>My girlfriend has just had her car serviced and the garage ( Halfords )
> >>sheered off one of the bleed nipples.
> >
> >Well there's your first mistake, going to Halfords.
> >
> >
> >There are ways of bleeding calipers/cylinders without using the bleed
> >nipples but it's fairly long and involved and I doubt Halfords would
> >have gone that far. It is more than likely that you've still got
> >old brake fluid in the car which will boil at a lower point than
> >new stuff.
> >>
> >
> >Well if Halfords broke the bleed nipple then they should replace it. They
> >may have to replace the whole caliper/cylinder though.
> >
> >John
> >
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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toby...@earthling.net
jgre...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <3651f0f...@news.karoo.co.uk>, gra...@motors.karoo.co.uk
(Graham) writes:
>
> >To be fair to Halfords, and that goes against the grain....:-( a bleed
> >nipple can snap very easily if it has not been moved for a long time,
> >esp if it's into alloy.
>
> (snip other reasonable stuff)
>
> solution. However when fixing other peoples cars I've usually taken
> bleed nipple was that tight then it may have been better to leave
> it and then consult the owner before proceeding.
:-)
Maybe it's experience (I'm just an amateur DIYer!) but I've found some (Metro,
Allegro, Dolomite) are made of putty and will sheer as soon as you look at it
while others (Celica GT, Primera) free up after a sharp twist without any
damage.
Having written that I have noticed the ones I have had no problems with are
Japanese rather than British. I wonder.....
I'd agree with you on other things (eg. overtightening & sheering, forgetting
to tighted etc) but with brake nipples you really can't tell if the garage
was just unlucky (you pay) or ham fisted (they pay). Best do it yourself then
there is only one person you can blame. DIY also means there is no chance of
someone bodging a half stripped or cross threaded union which you will not
notice until it's too late.
Toby
Simon Love
Soime background :
Halfords were only initially asked to perform a routine service.
They identified a problem with the brake boil temp and asked if it should
be changed. No mention of any potential problems like they normally do.
I beleive that both front were seezed, they sheered one and gave up with
the other It appears. They did report it on the sheet but never told us
when we collected it. They went through it all on the clean invoice sheet
detailing what she paid for, saying its easier than reading the engineers
hand writing. Being synical, that could have been an attempt to hide it ?
How much would I expect to pay for a Caliper ( Assuming I need 2 ) ?
They also reported some other faults which they did not fix ( never asked
if we wanted them done ) I think one was the nearside front CV boot ( maybe
leaking )
Does this need doing ASAP ?
Thanks for the extra details ...
Simon
Simon Love <simon...@intersol-uk.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in article
<72si00$i04$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>...
> Hi all,
>
> My girlfriend has just had her car serviced and the garage ( Halfords )
> sheered off one of the bleed nipples.
>
> The service sheet says that it was sheered off but the brakes were bled
> through the rear !
>
> A friend told her that the nipple for the brake that sheered off would
not
> necessarilly be bled properly and may still be affected by a low boiling
> point!
>
> Can anyone shed any light on this. I do not know enough about cars to
say.
>
> If this is the case then I shall get back in contact with halfords to
sort
> it out.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
Andrew Willoughby
>
> As the originator, I have read all the threads so far.
>
> Soime background :
>
> Halfords were only initially asked to perform a routine service.
>
I wonder how they did that? Do they really take a sample and test it?
At every routine service? I don't see how else they could identify a
problem.
> They also reported some other faults which they did not fix ( never asked
> if we wanted them done ) I think one was the nearside front CV boot (
maybe
> leaking )
>
> Does this need doing ASAP ?
Yes! Otherwise all the grease will leak out and water and grit will
leak in. Then you'll not need just the boot but the CV joint as well.
--
Andrew
Relax, enjoy life!
Ben Boulton
> I wonder how they did that? Do they really take a sample and test it?
> At every routine service? I don't see how else they could identify a
> problem.
There are machines that test this. All you do is put the sensor in the
brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir and it tells you the boiling
point of the fluid. I believe it measures the moisture content of the
fluid, brake fluid being hygroscopic absorbs water from the atmosphere
which then lowers the boiling point of the fluid.
Gerry Orchard
Heres my two NP`s worth.
I think that Halford`s mechanic was being honest when filling out your job
sheet. He could have claimed that the nipple was already broken or simply
not mentioned it!
So I think you HAVE found an "honest" garage or at least an honest mechanic.
As the Americans say "shit happens". It is no more the mechanics fault
(providing he took reasonable care) that this was seized and broke any more
than it was your fault for seizing it.
I agree with Graham re the CONsumer completely.
Why?
Well, what about the customer who books in for oil and filter and then when
the plug is removed (and the PTFE tape) you find that their is no thread
left in the high tensile pressed steel sump! Or the guy who books his Saab
900 in for a sticky hand brake and you find the calliper bolts recently
removed, calliper & line totally empty of fluid and the blanking plate
filled with Plastic Padding in an attempt to keep the brake fluid in.
Then there`s the "its not run right since you did the MOT,mate, I dont know
what you done,mate, but I want it sorted now". These customers claimed that
we had caused the damage and they had no problems in the past,
misguided,mistaken,coincidence or con?
Then there guy who`s Mazda was towed in, we found the fault to be the
"igniter pack"-as Mazda call it- and quoted for replacement, guy turns up 30
minutes later to tow the car to a mate who will fix it for less, and cannot
see why "the F*&^K I should pay 20 quid when you ain`t` done nufink".
Thankfully these are few and far between but the fact that some
plonka,stands in front of you, face to face, calls you a liar and thinks
that he can intimidate you with threats of trading standards or consumer
groups or just physically, really P`s me off.
But it`s this one that takes the biscuit.
A customer brought his car in for service,during the service it is noted
that the n/s/f/tyre has damage to the sidewall and that it should be
replaced (spare shagged), prices are given, after a large intake of breath,
he decides to have it replaced elsewhere.
On collecting the vehicle he is told again that the tyre is dangerous and
should be replaced, he says that he is going to have it replaced on his way
home.
Two weeks later a letter arrives from a firm of ambulance chasers,sorry,
solicitors, stating that their client has sustained injuries in a road
traffic accident that they hold me liable for . Why? Basically, because we
re-fitted an un-roadworthy and by our own admission( job sheet) dangerous
tyre to Mr CONsumers car.They "invited" me to get medical reports etc and
make an interim settlement as their client was facing financial hard ship
being unable to work.
Over to my insurers, who were extremely supportive and stood by me through
all this,shortly before my day in court the claim was dropped.
So is there any action I can take against this pissant and his solicitors
for the stress and sleepless nights I suffered? No.
Take the recent Land Rover thing on T.V..
This Guy has a fuel line that fractures at the union and wants a new Land
Rover.
I don`t now were in this NG it is,someone mentions the Diesel fuel on the
front brakes of the Discovery.
Anything is possible with something as dynamic as a motor vehicle and I am
never suprised at the things I see every day in my work,but,it is extremely
unlikely that diesel would travel from the lift pump,past the back plates
and contaminate the brakes resulting in the loss of braking the guy
complained of, its far more likely that when the engine died so did the
vacuum pump and therefore the servo effect, his brakes were still there, he
just had to push harder, much harder!
Still an expert was wheeled out to confirm everything and Land Rover were
condemned by inference for not replacing the braking system!
In the US it is considered fun to sue everyone you can, how about the
burglar who sued the owner of the house he was burgling when he fell from
the ladder the owner had left leaning against the wall! He claimed that had
the ladder not been there he would not have attempted to burgle the house
and therefore not have fallen! Case found in his favour and damages awarded.
Well that`s the Yanks for you. Well no, actually its not, and then there is
the convicted murderer of a policeman who recently won his case for
compensation for a coat lost during his arrest, I believe. Again found in
his favour and compensation awarded.
And where was that? In the UK.
We now have a "blame culture" in this country everything that happens is
someone's fault and its just a matter of proving it.
We are encouraged to complain about anything and everything in the belief
that it will make things better and weed out the bad businesses, not so the
bad guys know their bad and they carry on just the same.The only people who
will benefit from the blame culture is the lawyers.The losers will be the
likes of you and me paying higher insurance premiums, in my case an increase
of 18% because a greedy person thought that he could get a few bob.
And the consumer programs on the telly, some of the complaints are overdone
but the businesses concerned usually back off for the sake of PR.
Why is it that everything a consumer program presenter says is taken as
absolute fact? and why is it that the apologies made to the companies and
small businesses that have been wrongfully accused, and have stood up to
these people, get a brief and passing mention? Why not show us the old film
of the unfounded claims being made , stopping it at the points where the
"errors" were made? and why the hell am I spending all this time writing
this when the pubs been open for ages,and if they call oranges, oranges and
lemons, lemons why not call Bananas yellows,and ......
Sod em!
Gerry
Gone to pub.
Chris Wilson
mailed to Gerry Orchard]
In article <911742403.1444.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
ali...@demon.co.uk says...
<huge snip>
> and why the hell am I spending all this time writing
> this when the pubs been open for ages,and if they call oranges, oranges and
> lemons, lemons why not call Bananas yellows,and ......
>
>
>
> Sod em!
> Gerry
> Gone to pub.
All I can say is that this was the best post I have read in here in
ages.You've been reading my diary,your accurate comments about garage
customers is a sad reflection on todays society.
We too experience an increasingly large number of attempted cons.
Keep smiling..
Jethro
caveat vendor
Bob Walker
: Andy Willoughby wrote:-
I would have thought that was close to useless. The only
bits that get really hot are the wheel cylinders and little
bits of brake pipe. The reservoir is a long way from that
and there is virtually no circulation/exchange of fluid between
distant parts.
On one side, it could be argued that the 'hot' end is closed
and sealed against the entry of anything, including moisture
whereas the reservoir is constantly exposed to fresh, potentially
damp air - through the breather hole and encouraged by the
constant expansion/contraction of the fluid with heat. In
that case, the reservoir would show moisture which was not
present in the important bits (at least as far as boiling goes).
On the other hand, in my experience, the seals on the calipers/
wheel cylinders do let in moisture - that is where all the
corrosion I have ever found actually occurs. That would not be
indicated at the master cylinder end.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed are personal. They do not necessarily
represent those of my employer.
Bob Walker, BBC Research and Development Department.
Kingswood Warren, Tadworth, Surrey, UK.
Gethin Evans
The best way is to fit video cameras with attached microphones to your workshop
area, then no bugger can dispute the truth and twist the story. For a few
hundred quid it can save a lot of grief !!
Gethin Evans.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>There are machines that test this.
Indeed. You just need a battery, a pushbutton and an LED. Stick it in
the pot and make it light up with "You ought to flush & bleed your
fluid". If it's time to bother about testing the stuff, then it's a
very rare car that has lived in the UK's weather and has brake fluid
that _hasn't_ suffered several years of aging.
Brake fluid is a consumable item. Change it often. For one thing, it
saves eventually shearing bleed screws off through years of lack of
use.
Pete Lucas
I couldn't agree more! Must dmit, i have a rather zealous
approach to maintenance of safety-critical bits like brakes
and shock-absorbers. Am I the only one who "lifes" things
like brake hoses, all the seals, and pads, changing them
at fixed service-intervals (24000 miles/2 years) as a matter
of course?
Having once driven a vehicle and had the brakes fail on me,
i can assure you that having to choose between using a
bridge-parapet or a hedge to stop with is *not* fun!
//PJML//
Andrew Willoughby
(Andy Dingley) writes:
> Brake fluid is a consumable item. Change it often. For one thing, it
> saves eventually shearing bleed screws off through years of lack of
> use.
It seems such a waste of natural resources to throw away
perfectly good fluid if there's nothing wrong with it.
I prevent bleed nipples siezing by slackening a quarter
turn and re-tightening at each service.
A research chemist once explained to me that hoses & seals
would last longer on brakes and cooling system if the
fluid/antifreeze was never changed. His theory was that
the rubber became weakened by some parts of it disolving
in the fluid until the fluid was a saturated solution.
Change the fluid and you start dissolving a whole lot more
rubber.
My two 6 year old cars are both still on original brake
fluid and antifreeze and I won't be changing them yet.
The firms van is 4 years old with 120,000 miles on original
fluids.
Has anyone had problems with boiling brake fluid under
normal driving conditions?
Chris Wilson
And...@willouby.demon.co.uk says...
<snip>
> Has anyone had problems with boiling brake fluid under
> normal driving conditions?
Yes,most heavily laden vehicles,both passenger,and in
particular,goods,can tax the fluid to beyond the limit,if it is water
contaminated.A descent of the some of the Peak Districts roads in a
heavily laden car,at a vigourous speed,can easily cause sub standard
fluid to boil.I recently had a scary moment when an old Volvo estates
fluid boiled,that was well laden,doing just such a decent.I was lucky
in having experienced fluid boil many times before,in racing,and could
realise what the sudden sinking pedal meant,and allow the fluid to
thermally recover.
Being the least green person I know,wastage of natural resources would
not be a factor I would take into account when deciding if a
customers brake fluid might last another year.It gets flushed,and I
sleep at nights :-)
Andrew Willoughby
>
> In article <124495...@willouby.demon.co.uk>,
> And...@willouby.demon.co.uk says...
>
> <snip>
> > Has anyone had problems with boiling brake fluid under
> > normal driving conditions?
> A descent of the some of the Peak Districts roads in a
> heavily laden car,at a vigourous speed...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I needn't worry then 8-)
Andrew
Slow down, relax, enjoy life!
Chris Wilson
And...@willouby.demon.co.uk says...
Possibly not...:-) But brake fluid vaporisation can easily have you
going at a vigourous speed, even if that is not your intent <g>
My vigourous speed was an attempt to get back to civilisation before
last orders,but our chat in the Police thread has me thinking about
the *quality* of that civilisation I so rapidly sought.May I ask where
this idyll of yours is,where thieves don't operate,and drugs are
legally dispensed from the local chemist? I may think of moving !
I was of the impression it was now pretty endemic everywhere,just done
more discretely in some quarters.
Ben Mack
<And...@willouby.demon.co.uk> writes
>Has anyone had problems with boiling brake fluid under
>normal driving conditions?
Yes, in an unladen Spitfire, on an undemanding road in Hampshire,
braking into a roundabout. Not nice!! The fluid was rather old,
though...
--
Ben
Andrew Willoughby
(Chris Wilson) writes:
> ... our chat in the Police thread has me thinking about
> the *quality* of that civilisation I so rapidly sought.May I ask where
> this idyll of yours is,where thieves don't operate,and drugs are
> legally dispensed from the local chemist? I may think of moving !
> I was of the impression it was now pretty endemic everywhere,just done
> more discretely in some quarters.
Thieves *do* operate here, I believe, but that is not life
threatening. There may be illegal drugs, but I've never seen
anything to indicate their existance. I *have* seen plenty
of cars going far too fast, seen and heard of many car
crashes, and know of plenty that were fatal.
Alan J. Wylie
>
> In article <124495...@willouby.demon.co.uk>,
> And...@willouby.demon.co.uk says...
>
> <snip>
> > normal driving conditions?
>
> fluid to boil.
Lightly laden, and at a sensible speed, in the Peak District,
and it still boiled.
Very unnerving.
And that was less than a month after I had had a full service
and a replacement front brake caliper at Halfords.
B****y cowboys.
It's not even as if I use my brakes a lot - I tend to
start slowing well in advance, and use gentle engine
braking. I've had seized calipers on both my recent
cars - I reckon from not enough travel in the cylinders.
Chris Wilson
> Lightly laden, and at a sensible speed, in the Peak District,
> and it still boiled.
>
> Very unnerving.
>
> And that was less than a month after I had had a full service
> and a replacement front brake caliper at Halfords.
> B****y cowboys.
>
> It's not even as if I use my brakes a lot - I tend to
> start slowing well in advance, and use gentle engine
> braking. I've had seized calipers on both my recent
> cars - I reckon from not enough travel in the cylinders.
Also,of course,cheap,no name brand brake *pads* can cause brake
fade.The imported *rap often uses a generic pad material,on different
backings.OE stuff uses a purpose design pad material,for each
application.When shoes were more prevalent,the same went for them,only
more so.Re lined shoes generally got fitted with a generic
material.Deadly,particularly on HGV's.
It is a dangerous tenet to suggest,as has been done in this group,that
only hooligan drivers will generate brake fade/fluid boil.The
commonest time for this killer to raise its head,is in the summer,when
families pile into one car,with a caravan or trailer on the back,and
descend scenic routes.They may be driving in a far from energetic
manner,(as the queues behind will testify),but brake fade may still be
imminent.I believe some countries (Germany?) mandate a brake fluid
water contamination check at regular intervals.
From your seized caliper tale,Alan,we usually find reps *never* get
this,as regular,energetic use of the brakes stop moisture build up
behind the dust seals.This potential moisture build up can rust
through the chrome on the calipers pistons,enlarging their effective
diameter,locally,and causing them to stick.It's unfortunate that some
problems with cars are an indirect result from using them gently and
infrequently... :-(
Toby Mack
wrote:
>In article <124495...@willouby.demon.co.uk>, Andrew Willoughby
><And...@willouby.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Has anyone had problems with boiling brake fluid under
>>normal driving conditions?
>
>Yes, in an unladen Spitfire, on an undemanding road in Hampshire,
>braking into a roundabout. Not nice!! The fluid was rather old,
>though...
>
Yes again!
In my case it was a rear brake which got hot due to being partially
siezed, driving style wasn't an issue (on this occasion :-).
This might appear a special case but:
1) The car had recently passed an MOT where the tester did not note
any problems (I asked him specifically 'cause I suspected a problem).
This implies the dragging wasn't that bad, I suspect most people would
not have noticed it. In practice I reckon it was intermittantly
seizing.
2) I have (on a number of occasions) got my front brakes hot enough to
smoke (visible from inside the car!), making the wheels hot enough to
be painful to touch. The rear brake never got anything like that hot.
This all implies the heat build up was not out of the ordinary.
Also, on overhauling the caliper I found the fluid an opaque brown and
the caliper full of rusty deposits. Definitely not good!
The bottom line is that the brake system is NOT a sealed system.
Moisture/corrosion will get in with time. ( I suspect time is more
important than miles, my Celica is 12 years old). If you don't ever
change the fluid then (according to my experience!) you are asking for
trouble!
All IMHO of course!
Toby
Andrew Willoughby
<alan....@zen.co.uk> writes:
> Lightly laden, and at a sensible speed, in the Peak District,
> and it still boiled.
Are you sure it was fluid boiling and not just brake fade due
to cheap/overheated pads?
Fluid boiling - Pedal goes down to the floor.
Brake fade - Pedal stays hard, but brakes don't slow you down.
It would be interesting to take the same car down the same hill
after changing the fluid.
BTW I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just interested in finding the truth.
Alan J. Wylie
Definitely fluid boiling - pedal went all squishy.
Andy Dingley
(Andrew Willoughby) wrote:
>It seems such a waste of natural resources to throw away
>perfectly good fluid if there's nothing wrong with it.
You've never lost your brakes through boiled fluid, have you ?
Runa Aktar
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