Warning - Ferodo 'Target' brake pads
Dave Baker
supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are the
budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed the
disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently for 50
miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm pedal,
no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
However......
First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely. Total brake fade
after just one high speed stop. Nearly overshot the turn in to my road when the
pedal went limp as Larry Grayson's handshake and ended up pushing as hard as my
little leggies would let me to make the stop. Got into the drive and struth
what a vile stink - like burning tyres coming from the front end. I've repeated
the performance since so it wasn't a one off. I can actually fade them out at
50 mph if I stamp on them hard enough. The old shagged OE Ford ones wouldn't
fade a bit under quite serious country road high speed abuse (100 mph plus) for
mile after mile.
It isn't the brake fluid or any other thing. Nothing else got changed other
than the pads. Car has only 33k and is in A1 condition. The pad material is
clearly nothing more than compressed toilet paper and not fit to be on a car.
I'm going to take it up with Ferodo as a serious safety issue because someone
trying to avoid a high speed motorway shunt with these things fitted could
quite easily lose a fair chunk of their braking on the one high speed stop.
Ferraris will refund me no question so it isn't a money issue - I've been
spending with them for many years. Just don't like to see such shite being sold
to the unwary. We all know to avoid 'made in Itchifanni' far east pattern stuff
but you wouldn't think you could go so far wrong with a 'reputable' UK major
manufacturer. I'd rate them as A1 at anything up to 30 mph - lol.
Mintex for me from now on which means setting up an account with a new trade
supplier but so be it.
Ferodo do a higher level (and cost) road range of pads which may well be fine
but I haven't tried any so can't say. Just avoid the 'Target' brand like the
effing plague is all I'd say.
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
Next time someone insults you remember it takes 12 muscles to smile politely
and try to pass it off but only 4 to reach out your arm and slap the twat.
Pete M
Dave Baker <pumar...@aol.comma> decided to enlighten our sheltered souls
with a rant as follows
Where's your sense of adventure?
Shite brake pads are the future, dude.. Population is out of control,
maaaan.. Kill 'em off with Focus brake pads I say....
Duly noted, Dave. The manufacturers of "compressed grass" brake pads should
be first against the wall when the revolution comes..
(especially if they try to stop the revolution with their own produce..)
--
Pete M - Ford Capri !!! - Mercedes 500 SEL,
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain
Tim S Kemp
> Mintex for me from now on which means setting up an account with a
> new trade supplier but so be it.
>
> Ferodo do a higher level (and cost) road range of pads which may well
> be fine but I haven't tried any so can't say. Just avoid the 'Target'
> brand like the effing plague is all I'd say.
Ahhh bollox. That's another one off the list, need new pads / discs for the
S60 and was going to go Ferodo as the mintex ones seem to be pretty crap for
mine - did 50k on the original pads/disks, which I replaced with OE disks
Mintex pads - mintex pads have lasted <20k.... Recommended Ferodo pads /
Brembo disks for the front (although only need pads at the mo), OE
disks/pads for the back (which is fair enough as the rears have done 70k and
aren't completely shot yet) but if the Ferodos are crap...
EBC make a grooved disk for mine (and a plain disk too)... what do I do?????
John Greystrong
> Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal trade
> supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are the
> budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed the
> disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently for 50
> miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm pedal,
> no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
>
> However......
>
> First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely.
I've heard this before from various people and the motor factors I get
my stuff from. The 'normal' Ferodo pads are fine though.
John
mrcheerful
reasonable money.
Brakes are not a save money item.
This is possibly MY family's life we are talking about here.
mrcheerful
Dave Plowman
mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why would you be so mean as to buy cheap brake pads. The genuine ones
> are reasonable money.
Ford are unlikely to make their own, or use just one maker, and Ferodo is
(or was) a respected maker of OEM parts.
> Brakes are not a save money item. This is possibly
> MY family's life we are talking about here.
Wonder how many times I've seen this written. Perhaps you'd extend it to
cars not fitted with ABS, and any that can't exceed 1G on a good surface?
--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Ian Edwards
> Ferodo do a higher level (and cost) road range of pads which may well be fine
> but I haven't tried any so can't say. Just avoid the 'Target' brand like the
> effing plague is all I'd say.
>
>
> Dave Baker
Just a thought before you blame Ferodo. Are you sure they're not some
Far Eastern fake copies of the genuine thing? - (Not that I'd know how
to distinguish between them.)
--
Ian Edwards
Wanna buy a Rolex for a tenner? :-)
mrcheerful
"Dave Plowman" <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4cb58bffe7...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <k%gtc.3883$kj4.37...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Why would you be so mean as to buy cheap brake pads. The genuine ones
> > are reasonable money.
>
> Ford are unlikely to make their own, or use just one maker, and Ferodo is
> (or was) a respected maker of OEM parts.
>
> > Brakes are not a save money item. This is possibly
> > MY family's life we are talking about here.
>
> Wonder how many times I've seen this written. Perhaps you'd extend it to
> cars not fitted with ABS, and any that can't exceed 1G on a good surface?
>
There is a world of difference between the way a modern car with good brakes
is driven and the way you drive an older car with less good brakes. Since
the OP knew that Ford brakes worked ok, why change to another make? I used
to fit Ferodo pads, because they were what the car shop stocked, but I found
that they caused noisy braking compared to genuine, so since then I have
bought genuine if available or Mintex. The car shop were not interested in
even telling their suppliers of my problems with Ferodo pads.
My point about my family is to raise awareness that the OP is endangering
OTHERS as well as himself by fitting pads which are quite clearly
substandard, he has also not followed the common instructions, which include
try the brakes on a quiet road, before he has expected them to work really
well, although I applaud that he has run them in, albeit for too short a
time. Fading brakes are nearly as frightening as losing touch with the road
on ice.
mrcheerful
John Greystrong
> My point about my family is to raise awareness that the OP is endangering
> OTHERS as well as himself by fitting pads which are quite clearly
> substandard,
How the fuck was he supposed they were 'substandard'? They're Ferodo,
they probably make OE stuff, they came from a reputable dealer.
What a shite argument.
John
Dave Plowman
mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Wonder how many times I've seen this written. Perhaps you'd extend it
> > to cars not fitted with ABS, and any that can't exceed 1G on a good
> > surface?
> >
> There is a world of difference between the way a modern car with good
> brakes is driven and the way you drive an older car with less good
> brakes.
Is there? Does an emergency take account of the age of the car?
> Since the OP knew that Ford brakes worked ok, why change to
> another make?
Didn't you read what I wrote? Most car makers don't make the brakes, and
will source parts from different makers. Then put their name on the box
and charge extra - although this isn't always so.
If buying a reputable make - like Ferodo is or was - I'd expect their
parts to perform at least as well as the ones from the makers box.
> I used to fit Ferodo pads, because they were what the car
> shop stocked, but I found that they caused noisy braking compared to
> genuine, so since then I have bought genuine if available or Mintex.
> The car shop were not interested in even telling their suppliers of my
> problems with Ferodo pads.
Well, by your reckoning, you should only be using Ford parts.
> My point about my family is to raise awareness that the OP is
> endangering OTHERS as well as himself by fitting pads which are quite
> clearly substandard,
Err, do you think he *asked* for substandard parts?
> he has also not followed the common instructions, which include try the
> brakes on a quiet road, before he has expected them to work really well,
> although I applaud that he has run them in, albeit for too short a time.
I think you're reading things into his post. Where does it say the road
was busy?
Also, the idea of running in brakes making much difference to the fade
performance is nonsense on newly machined discs.
> Fading brakes are nearly as frightening as losing touch with the road
> on ice.
Haven't experienced serious brake fade since I had an early Mini.
--
*Eschew obfuscation *
Dave Baker
>From: "mrcheerful" nbk...@hotmail.com
>Date: 27/05/04 08:44 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <k%gtc.3883$kj4.37...@news-text.cableinet.net>
>
>Why would you be so mean as to buy cheap brake pads. The genuine ones are
>reasonable money.
WTF are you on about? Ferodo is one of the oldest and most respected names in
braking systems. I had every expectation their pads would be to OE performance
standards. At worst the budget range might be anticipated to wear out a bit
faster or create more disc wear but NOT to stop bloody working at all the first
time they got used at more than 60 mph.
Dave Baker
>Message-id: <zuitc.3959$TO4.38...@news-text.cableinet.net>
You utterly up his own arse pompous twat! They are only 'clearly' substandard
with the benefit of hindsight. They were expected to work perfectly well when
they were fitted.
So you were there with me when I tested them were you to be able to tell me
I've not followed 'common instructions'? For your information I was on a quiet
road with no other cars around, the discs got skimmed, they got run in for
longer than anyone else would bother to do so and now I've told others not to
buy them.
Time to get the killfile out.
PLONK
Dave Baker
was I? Oh yes, I emailed a copy of my original post to Ferodo last night with a
view to them (or Trading Standards if they don't respond) testing the pads and
giving a written report. I'll see if they respond. If not I'll take it further.
In the meantime I have to find a better set of pads to replace these with as
they aren't staying on the car any longer than I can help it.
mrcheerful
"Dave Baker" <pumar...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20040527060227...@mb-m25.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Warning - Ferodo 'Target' brake pads
> >From: "mrcheerful" nbk...@hotmail.com
> >Date: 27/05/04 08:44 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <k%gtc.3883$kj4.37...@news-text.cableinet.net>
> >
> >Why would you be so mean as to buy cheap brake pads. The genuine ones
are
> >reasonable money.
>
> WTF are you on about? Ferodo is one of the oldest and most respected names
in
> braking systems. I had every expectation their pads would be to OE
performance
> standards. At worst the budget range might be anticipated to wear out a
bit
> faster or create more disc wear but NOT to stop bloody working at all the
first
> time they got used at more than 60 mph.
>
Various answers/questions:
To the OP: you said that you nearly overshot a turning, or words to that
effect, that implies you didn't try them out hard on a quiet bit of road.
I seem to remember you asked about pads a while ago, didn't anyone recommend
genuine?
To dave P:
I understood that the pad material needed to 'cook' to some extent and that
bedding in was not just to bed them to an old disk?
To dave B:
Is it possible that you did not finish the disc surface to a suitable
degree, thus promoting brake fade?
To dave P:
I agree that an emergency stop is the same on any vehicle, but the way the
brakes are used between times is very different on old and new cars, a
2litre focus is probably as quick as an older ferrari through the gears and
is likely to be driven quite hard compared to an older car, so the brakes
will get more of a workout and need to be of better quality, especially fade
resistance.
Certainly some late fords have different pad material for inner and outer
pads, so quite clearly there are technical complications that the average
mechanic will not even imagine, so again, why try to imagine that a cheapo
set of pads will work as well as a genuine set? Can you envisage the law
suits if standard original eqipment pads failed as the OP has described?
Since I came to the realisation that most non genuine stuff is rubbish, I
have tried to always buy genuine. My bill at the car shop (all pattern
stuff) used to be in the l000 and a bit range per month. Now, my bill there
is usually less than a hundred a month. However my bills at vauxhall and
ford are now nearly a thousand each. This is mainly because of bad
experiences with pattern stuff and my unwillingness to inflict their effects
on others.
mrcheerful
Guy King
from John Greystrong <jo...@greystrongREMOVE.me.uk> contains these words:
> I've heard this before from various people and the motor factors I get
> my stuff from. The 'normal' Ferodo pads are fine though.
I wonder if they're what's fitted to the wife's Clio. Fine when they're
warmed up - but we live at the top of a short steep hill....
--
"Bother", said Skipweasel as he molished a little jig.
Guy King
from "mrcheerful" <nbk...@hotmail.com> contains these words:
> My point about my family is to raise awareness that the OP is endangering
> OTHERS as well as himself by fitting pads which are quite clearly
> substandard,
Thing is - he's bought pads from a firm which has at least some sort of
reputation and has discovered them to be not very good. He's doing
something about it.
Cost does not always equate to safety or quality.
Guy King
from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
> You utterly up his own arse pompous twat! They are only 'clearly'
> substandard
> with the benefit of hindsight. They were expected to work perfectly
> well when
> they were fitted.
I think the point about them being counterfeit may be worth persuing.
Send 'em back to Ferodo and ask 'em to see if they're genuine.
Dave Plowman
mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Certainly some late fords have different pad material for inner and
> outer pads, so quite clearly there are technical complications that the
> average mechanic will not even imagine, so again, why try to imagine
> that a cheapo set of pads will work as well as a genuine set?
I assume that these pads are of different construction so it's impossible
to mix them up, given the skills of the average main dealer mechanic?
> Can you envisage the law suits if standard original eqipment pads
> failed as the OP has described?
No difference from buying spares from a reputable maker. You simply sue a
different party.
> Since I came to the realisation that most non genuine stuff is rubbish,
> I have tried to always buy genuine.
Once again you seem to have missed the point that Ford don't make all the
parts they supply in their boxes, nor will they test each individual item
for quality control.
> My bill at the car shop (all
> pattern stuff) used to be in the l000 and a bit range per month. Now,
> my bill there is usually less than a hundred a month. However my bills
> at vauxhall and ford are now nearly a thousand each. This is mainly
> because of bad experiences with pattern stuff and my unwillingness to
> inflict their effects on others.
No-one is saying that all pattern stuff is as good as original - but
experience should tell you which makers to trust.
It's also possible to buy 'pattern' parts made to a much higher standard
than the maker's originals - tyres and batteries for example.
--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?
Doki
Dave Baker wrote:
> Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal
> trade supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services).
> Target are the budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a
> normal road car. Skimmed the disks true on the lathe while I was
> fitting them and ran them in gently for 50 miles to bed them in
> properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm pedal, no judder
> and good braking under normal low speed use.
>
> However......
>
> First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely. Total
> brake fade after just one high speed stop. Nearly overshot the turn
> in to my road when the pedal went limp as Larry Grayson's handshake
> and ended up pushing as hard as my little leggies would let me to
> make the stop. Got into the drive and struth what a vile stink - like
> burning tyres coming from the front end. I've repeated the
> performance since so it wasn't a one off. I can actually fade them
> out at 50 mph if I stamp on them hard enough. The old shagged OE Ford
> ones wouldn't fade a bit under quite serious country road high speed
> abuse (100 mph plus) for mile after mile.
I had some Ferodos that were pretty poor to. Not sure if they were Targets
or not, but they faded more than the "Apec" pads that I replaced them with.
That said, the Ka's got solid disks when it really ought to have vented.
mrcheerful
> In article <yAjtc.4006$1I5.38...@news-text.cableinet.net>,
> mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Certainly some late fords have different pad material for inner and
> > outer pads, so quite clearly there are technical complications that the
> > average mechanic will not even imagine, so again, why try to imagine
> > that a cheapo set of pads will work as well as a genuine set?
>
> I assume that these pads are of different construction so it's impossible
> to mix them up, given the skills of the average main dealer mechanic?
>
No, the pads could be mixed, as I recall the difference is a paint spot on
the outer one, there is also an instruction leaflet, but who reads those?
If the discs were incorrectly surfaced, then might that generate localised
hot spots on the pad, which would overheat and fade?
My point about genuine is that it is generally to a high enough standard for
normal use, pattern is usually just cheap, and no-one cares about quality.
A case in point is the rubber used for balljoint seals, a pattern metro
balljoint of several different brands usually only lasts a few months before
cracking and splitting, whereas genuine last till the joint wears out.
mrcheerful
Dan405
news:2hm622F...@uni-berlin.de...
I've got the normal Ferodo pads, the ones above Targets as far as i can see.
They're not /bad/ per say. Not as good as the EBC Green's I had before, but
they were pretty cheap, they fade after a bit of abuse, a few stops from
around a tonne usually does it, but i do have shite solid disks as well.
--
Dan
Dave Baker
>Date: 27/05/04 12:26 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3130303034323...@zetnet.co.uk>
>
>The message <20040527060940...@mb-m25.aol.com>
>from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
>
>> You utterly up his own arse pompous twat! They are only 'clearly'
>> substandard
>> with the benefit of hindsight. They were expected to work perfectly
>> well when
>> they were fitted.
>
>I think the point about them being counterfeit may be worth persuing.
>Send 'em back to Ferodo and ask 'em to see if they're genuine.
>
I'll wait and see if Ferodo bother to reply to my email. In the meantime the
replacement pads are sorted :)
Ford ones are £28.65 plus VAT (£33.66) and my local dealer only gives me a
minging 10% trade discount. Mind you I don't darken his door that often so I
can't blame him. However, a race engine customer who runs a small garage
business lives in Guernsey and is coming over to race this w/e and I'm going to
watch. There's no VAT in Guernsey and he gets 40% discount from his Ford
dealer.
That means £17.19 buys me a set to collect from him at the track along with the
cheap baccy from the ferry which he brings me over each time so I'm well happy.
Once the Ferodo ones are off the car again I'll see about getting them tested.
However they'll be doing a couple of hundred miles on the way to Wiltshire this
w/e so I'm giving them the last benefit of the doubt to see if they'll behave
better after a few more miles. It isn't unknown for new pads to lose a lot of
the binding agent under hard use which evaporates out and causes fade but to be
honest I've never experienced anything like this current situation myself. Just
hope no fecker nails the anchors in front of me on the M4 on the way down. I'll
be leaving my usual generous gaps to any potential wally in front :)
Steve B
they're nothing special, don't fade at all, in fact they get better when they're
hot. I'd be amazed if Ferodo lent their name to dodgy performance pads.
"Guy King" <guy....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303034323...@zetnet.co.uk...
**-**
"Doki" <do...@spamtroNspidar.com> wrote in message
news:2hm622F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
Apec pads arn't bad to be honest. Fine for a pootling about car
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "mrcheerful" <nbk...@hotmail.com>
saying something like:
>My point about my family is to raise awareness that the OP is endangering
>OTHERS as well as himself by fitting pads which are quite clearly
>substandard, he has also not followed the common instructions, which include
>try the brakes on a quiet road, before he has expected them to work really
>well, although I applaud that he has run them in, albeit for too short a
>time. Fading brakes are nearly as frightening as losing touch with the road
>on ice.
OH, for fuck's sake, get off your high horse, will you?
--
Dave
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "mrcheerful" <nbk...@hotmail.com>
saying something like:
>Brakes are not a save money item.
>This is possibly MY family's life we are talking about here.
Great! Let us know which roads you use, so we can lie in wait with our
badly-braked cars.
--
Dave
mrcheerful .
"Grimly Curmudgeon" <grimlycur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1tbcb01rt295nckr8...@4ax.com...
Well, I just hope it's you that the tightwad runs into when his brakes fail.
You obviously won't mind that, will you?
mrcheerful
Peter Hill
>Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal trade
>supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are the
>budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed the
>disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently for 50
>miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm pedal,
>no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
You have been too gentle and taken too long bedding them in.
>However......
>
>First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely. Total brake fade
>after just one high speed stop. Nearly overshot the turn in to my road when the
>pedal went limp as Larry Grayson's handshake and ended up pushing as hard as my
>little leggies would let me to make the stop. Got into the drive and struth
>what a vile stink - like burning tyres coming from the front end. I've repeated
>the performance since so it wasn't a one off.
That would be the bonding resins which must be burned off relatively
slowly to avoid both fade and uneven deposits. You haven't even
started bedding them in and then you trash them, so next time do it
right. Take it up to 60mph, brake down to 5mph, don't stop,
accelerate up to 60mph and brake back down to 5mph, repeat 10 times.
Don't stop after this keep driving until brakes have cooled off.
You need a nice stretch of traffic free road.
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!
Dave Baker
>Date: 27/05/04 09:06 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <kcitc.31$G52.6@newsfe3-gui>
>
>Dave Baker wrote:
>
>> Ferodo do a higher level (and cost) road range of pads which may well be
>fine
>> but I haven't tried any so can't say. Just avoid the 'Target' brand like
>the
>> effing plague is all I'd say.
>>
>>
>> Dave Baker
>
>Just a thought before you blame Ferodo. Are you sure they're not some
>Far Eastern fake copies of the genuine thing? - (Not that I'd know how
>to distinguish between them.)
>
Pretty unlikely. Ferraris Piston Services (my distributer) and Ferodo are now
both part of the huge Federal Mogul group which is why the one preferentially
distributes products from the other. All the product comes through central
purchasing at the head office and the 'branches' just make a profit based on
inter group transfer price. They don't buy their own stuff and there's no
opportunity or reason for anyone to sell non FM stuff.
Jimbo
of bedding in so how has he trashed his new pads??
I would imagine 60-5 mph ten times on the trot would just about fcuk any
brakes up! Be half ready for some new ones after all that malarky.
Jimbo
"Peter Hill" <peter....@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1vqcb05dcstsg9o9i...@4ax.com...
Stuffed
"mrcheerful" <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nDmtc.4146$d47.39...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> A case in point is the rubber used for balljoint seals, a pattern metro
> balljoint of several different brands usually only lasts a few months
before
> cracking and splitting, whereas genuine last till the joint wears out.
Not entirely true. I checked the rubbers on my balls joints when I had the
hub off the other day. Bottom one is definitely split, and looking grim. And
they certainly look like the original ones, if not then they're def
Stanpart/ Triumph OEM.
Same went for the upper joints on one of my other cars.
Of course, the youngest is 29 years old, but still :)
Dave Baker
>Date: 27/05/04 23:45 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1vqcb05dcstsg9o9i...@4ax.com>
>
>On 27 May 2004 04:22:18 GMT, pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) wrote:
>
>>Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal trade
>>supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are the
>>budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed
>the
>>disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently for
>50
>>miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm
>pedal,
>>no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
>
>You have been too gentle and taken too long bedding them in.
Bollocks
>
>>However......
>>
>>First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely. Total brake
>fade
>>after just one high speed stop. Nearly overshot the turn in to my road when
>the
>>pedal went limp as Larry Grayson's handshake and ended up pushing as hard as
>my
>>little leggies would let me to make the stop. Got into the drive and struth
>>what a vile stink - like burning tyres coming from the front end. I've
>repeated
>>the performance since so it wasn't a one off.
>
>That would be the bonding resins which must be burned off relatively
>slowly to avoid both fade and uneven deposits. You haven't even
>started bedding them in and then you trash them, so next time do it
>right. Take it up to 60mph, brake down to 5mph, don't stop,
>accelerate up to 60mph and brake back down to 5mph, repeat 10 times.
>Don't stop after this keep driving until brakes have cooled off.
>
>You need a nice stretch of traffic free road.
More bollocks. So you've been doing a bit of searching on Google and found
someone's recommendation on how to bed in high performance or race pads and now
you think you can sound a bit knowledgeable by trotting that out as applying to
bog std OE replacement ones. Utter tosh.
Do you seriously think every housewife who takes her Focus or Fiesta into a
Ford garage for new pads gets told she has to find a deserted country road and
go through some arcane procedure to bed them in otherwise she'll end up under
the back of an artic and kill all her children the first time she has to nail
them on hard?
The first few miles of normal use will bed in any imperfections between the pad
and disc surface and after that a road pad should be good to go. Mine were a
bit spongy for maybe 5 applications but by the time I got out of the village
they were firm. In fact I 'dragged' them for a couple of hundred yards with the
brakes on gently and the throttle balancing it to accelerate the process (yes a
fine and recommended procedure) and after that they just got used normally for
the next few trips. By the time they got stamped on at 70 mph for the first
time they were as well bedded in as a bedded in thingy could possibly be.
I've been putting pads on cars for 25 years and I've never come across a road
pad that needed more than a few miles of gentle/normal use before it operated
at full capacity. I'm sure the millions of people who buy brand new cars each
year with brand new pads and discs haven't either. If everyone had to follow
your suggested instructions for std road cars then there'd be people dying like
flies the first time they had to do an emergency stop behind the car in front.
Anyway, these feckers won't do a 60mph to 5mph stop in the first place
nevermind 10 of them. By the time they've dragged the car down from 60 to 30
they're already faded out and stinking like a burning oil well.
Monday morning they're getting ripped off and replaced by the Motorcraft ones
my mate's bringing me and I have no doubt that'll be the end of the problem.
Dave Baker
At 2.30 am tonight I went out to my favourite bit of deserted country road to
try a few tests given that the brakes have a fair few miles on them now. If any
'binding' agent is left in the pad mix and causing my problems I'm going to
evaporate the fecker out.
Test 1 - Full bore stopping from 60mph
1st test - car stopped hard enough to activate the ABS but it felt wierd.
Brakes all snatchy and grabby and the car danced around a bit. On the Ford pads
it was a very consistent and smooth deceleration. Drive for a few hundred yards
with the brakes off.
2nd test - fair retardation but brakes won't activate the ABS now.
3rd test - hard pedal but no more than 50% braking force and very long stopping
distance. It took 2 miles of driving without using the brakes to get any decent
retardation back.
Test 2 - left foot braking in 2nd gear at 30 mph with right foot hard on the
throttle.
1st test - brakes initially pull hard enough to overcome engine acceleration
but after 5 seconds the pedal goes hard and the car starts picking up speed
despite using full force on the brake pedal. Takes another 2 miles to get some
retardation back. I can smell the pads with the window open.
Try it again but same results. Brakes are now so useless I have to drive home
at slow speed to avoid any potential accident.
In second gear a Focus 2 litre will only accelerate at about 0.3g. The brakes
should generate 1g. If the engine can overcome the brakes at such low
acceleration values there's a shit load of things going wrong. Also when the
fluid boils you get a soft pedal which goes all the way to the floor because
the brake lines are full of gas. When you get a hard pedal but still no brakes
that's a pad problem. I have a pad problem.
These pads are seriously unsafe. I can do no more to test or bed them in. I now
know I have one hard stop in them before they fade into oblivion. That ought to
keep me safe in normal motoring until I can get the Motorcraft ones fitted next
Monday but I wouldn't want to try keeping up with anyone down a country road.
On a race track they'd be dead within a mile.
This is by far the worst braking experience I've ever come across.
Guy King
from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
> Pretty unlikely. Ferraris Piston Services (my distributer) and Ferodo
> are now
> both part of the huge Federal Mogul group which is why the one
> preferentially
> distributes products from the other. All the product comes through central
> purchasing at the head office and the 'branches' just make a profit based on
> inter group transfer price. They don't buy their own stuff and there's no
> opportunity or reason for anyone to sell non FM stuff.
For all that, counterfeit parts have found their way into Ford's
distribution chain before now.
Guy King
from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
> This is by far the worst braking experience I've ever come across.
Worst one I had was on a CX500 round the back of Wembley Stadium. Got a
placcybag round the front disc which pushed the pads out slightly -
first grab of the brakes as I approached the roundabout did absolutely
nothing. Brief moment to regain control of the sphincter and had another
grab at the brakes which then thankfully worked.
Dave Baker
Got a phone call from Ferodo's head office at 9.30 this morning. They are very
keen to get them back asap and test them. Probably on a dyno test rig but maybe
on an actual car. The guy who called drives a Focus himself as it happens.
Top marks for a quick response and it'll be interesting to get the test
feedback. I'll pass on those in due course.
MeatballTurbo
pumar...@aol.comma says...
> Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal trade
> supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are the
> budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed the
> disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently for 50
> miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm pedal,
> no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
>
I've used Ferodo Premiums on the Saab the last couple of times.
They seem crap when the discs are cold, and fade a little, when the
discs are hot, but used repeatedly. A couple of fast hot stops are
enough, and they work great, after that they start to go a little soggy.
Won't be using them again.
--
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Mike G
"Dave Baker" <pumar...@aol.comma> wrote in message
Just a thaught. Could the skim have affected the discs?
I've lathe skimmed discs myself, but have never found the result to be as
good as that to be had from new discs.
Even using a tipped tool it was evident that there were hard (chilled?)
areas of the disc that had a different finish.
My understanding is that professionally skimmed discs are ground both sides
at the same time, thus ensuring that they have a consistant finish and
thickness.
Then again maybe the discs I turned were particularly bad to start with, and
you've turned discs before without problems.
BTW the lathe I used was a Colchester Triumph, so should have been rigid
enough to do the job properly.
Mike.
Dave Baker
>Date: 28/05/04 10:44 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <40b70a24$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>
>Just a thaught. Could the skim have affected the discs?
>I've lathe skimmed discs myself, but have never found the result to be as
>good as that to be had from new discs.
>Even using a tipped tool it was evident that there were hard (chilled?)
>areas of the disc that had a different finish.
>My understanding is that professionally skimmed discs are ground both sides
>at the same time, thus ensuring that they have a consistant finish and
>thickness.
>Then again maybe the discs I turned were particularly bad to start with, and
>you've turned discs before without problems.
>BTW the lathe I used was a Colchester Triumph, so should have been rigid
>enough to do the job properly.
>Mike.
These discs skimmed very easily and had no hard spots. I find those more in
flywheels than discs actually. Most flywheels have a few seriously hard carbide
spots which require grinding rather than turning but discs generally turn fine
with a carbide tool.
After turning them I checked both discs on a surface plate with a dial gauge
and they were parallel to within half a thou all the way round. They were also
meticulously set up to be turned true to the hub flange when they were on the
lathe. I'm a reet fussy bugger when it comes to machining anything and I like
to get it better than OE if I possibly can. Back on the car there wasn't a hint
of runout or vibration which initially led me to believe I was in for a happy
braking experience. Ah, but how our hopes are dashed in this cruel life - lol.
Triumphs are nice machines :) I've got a round nose Student which is old and
well shagged but still works to fractions of a thou if you talk to it nicely
and know what you're doing. Having a DRO on it helps mind you. The cross slide
screw has like 2mm of slop in it which makes it interesting to get high
precision unless you know its foibles. I've had it 12 years or so and by (deity
of choice) it's done some fine work for me. Paid £800 for it and it certainly
doesn't owe me anything.
Jimbo
is that when the throttle is wide open it can totally kill the manifold
vacuum on a focus with the zetec e (know this from my own little
experiments). For example put the car in 3rd or 4th, floor the throttle and
pump the brake pedal on the 2nd or 3rd application the pedal will suddenly
go very hard and the car will take off like it's arse is on fire due to the
servo giving up the ghost.
The vacuum comes back with a vengenace as soon as you close the throttle and
if you are still pressing as hard as when the pedal had gone stiff you'll
probably go through the windscreen ;o)). It's not really a design flaw as
how many people need the brakes while accelerating ;o) .
However in this case as you have obviously got lots of problems with the
pads, it looks like they are shite, but the vacuum dropping is something to
watch with the left foot braking, possibly wouldn't be that drastic if there
was no pedal pumping going on though.
Jimbo
"Dave Baker" <pumar...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20040527223630...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Ian Edwards
> Further update.
>
> Got a phone call from Ferodo's head office at 9.30 this morning. They are very
> keen to get them back asap and test them. Probably on a dyno test rig but maybe
> on an actual car. The guy who called drives a Focus himself as it happens.
>
> Top marks for a quick response and it'll be interesting to get the test
> feedback. I'll pass on those in due course.
>
>
> Dave Baker
I don't suppose you still have the original packaging do you? If you
have, return it with the pads just in case they are cloned fakes.
Looking forward to seeing Ferodo's feedback.
--
Ian Edwards
Guy King
from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
> I've got a round nose Student which is old and
> well shagged but still works to fractions of a thou if you talk to it nicely
> and know what you're doing.
For a moment I had visions of a YTS trainee - or whatever they're called now.
Ivan
Apparently they can even turn up as fully documented Aero engine parts!
Dave Baker
>Date: 28/05/04 11:22 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3130303034323...@zetnet.co.uk>
>
>The message <20040528060831...@mb-m14.aol.com>
>from pumar...@aol.comma (Dave Baker) contains these words:
>
>> I've got a round nose Student which is old and
>> well shagged but still works to fractions of a thou if you talk to it
>nicely
>> and know what you're doing.
>
>For a moment I had visions of a YTS trainee - or whatever they're called now.
Nah - thems young and well shagged not old and well shagged. Could do with one
to errm 'help out' here though come to think of it.
Ian Riches
> >Subject: Re: Warning - Ferodo 'Target' brake pads
> >From: Guy King guy....@zetnet.co.uk
> >Date: 28/05/04 11:22 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3130303034323...@zetnet.co.uk>
<snip>
> >For a moment I had visions of a YTS trainee - or whatever they're called now.
>
> Nah - thems young and well shagged not old and well shagged. Could do with one
> to errm 'help out' here though come to think of it.
If the YTS equivalents nowadays have the good looks and intelligence
that they did a few years back, the "well-shagged" will be happening
only in his dreams....
<rambling drivel alert>
I did a work placement during my degree at TVR in Blackpool. The
YTS-type lad there was legendary for his, ummmm, mishaps. He's had
all the usual things done to him, poor thing ("go to stores and get
me a compression will you - aaarghh, you've let it out the box" sort
of stuff), but his crowning glory was his adventures with a certain
bolt.
At a certain point in the floor in the R&D workshop there was a bolt.
It had been used to hold down some piece of equipment in the past,
and was now stuck there. Everyone just knew it was there, and
avoided it.
Except one.
One person was always tripping over it. Again. And again. And
again.
So one day, he has a bright idea. "Perhaps if I could see it better,
I would be able to avoid it", he thinks. So he traverses the
workshop to get a aerosol of red paint. He walks back to the bolt,
and sprays it. He returns the can of paint to its rightful place.
He then goes back to his work.
And trips over the bolt.
Muppet.
</rambling drivel alert>
Ian
--
Ian Riches
Bedford, UK
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "mrcheerful
>Well, I just hope it's you that the tightwad runs into when his brakes fail.
>You obviously won't mind that, will you?
Won't bother me at all.
Want to swap posting names? Seems to me you're the grumpy fucker around
here.
--
Dave
Grimly Curmudgeon
<peter....@nospam.demon.co.uk> saying something like:
>That would be the bonding resins which must be burned off relatively
>slowly to avoid both fade and uneven deposits. You haven't even
>started bedding them in and then you trash them, so next time do it
>right. Take it up to 60mph, brake down to 5mph, don't stop,
>accelerate up to 60mph and brake back down to 5mph, repeat 10 times.
>Don't stop after this keep driving until brakes have cooled off.
>
>You need a nice stretch of traffic free road.
Bedding in 60 - 5mph 5 times or so is something I'd do with a set of
decent motorcycle pads or performance car pads, but is utterly
unnecessary with ordinary car pads.
--
Dave
Adrian
saying :
>> I had some Ferodos that were pretty poor to. Not sure if they were
>> Targets or not, but they faded more than the "Apec" pads that I
>> replaced them with.
> Apec pads arn't bad to be honest. Fine for a pootling about car
"Apec" or "Abex"? Abex are one of the suppliers that GSF use for PSA pads,
OEM for some, I think.
Tim (Remove NOSPAM.
"Dave Baker" <pumar...@aol.comma> wrote in message
> Bought a set a few weeks ago for my Focus 2 litre ESP from my normal trade
> supplier of engine and other bits (Ferraris Piston Services). Target are
the
> budget range but you'd think they'd be fine for a normal road car. Skimmed
the
> disks true on the lathe while I was fitting them and ran them in gently
for 50
> miles to bed them in properly. Initial impressions were fine. Nice firm
pedal,
> no judder and good braking under normal low speed use.
>
>
> First 'in anger' use and feck me they evaporated completely. Total brake
fade
> after just one high speed stop. Nearly overshot the turn in to my road
when the
> pedal went limp as Larry Grayson's handshake and ended up pushing as hard
as my
> little leggies would let me to make the stop. Got into the drive and
struth
> what a vile stink - like burning tyres coming from the front end. I've
repeated
at
> 50 mph if I stamp on them hard enough. The old shagged OE Ford ones
wouldn't
> fade a bit under quite serious country road high speed abuse (100 mph
plus) for
> mile after mile.
As you say, the Ford ones are good, as are standard Mintex ones I have on my
Focus at the moment though they make quite abit of dust on the alloys, but
allow the car to pull up well from high speed without fade.
Tim..
Peter Hill
Google does a good job for me.
http://www.kitcarbooks.com/brakepads.html
"Abex Friction Products, We heartily recommend the ‘bedding-in’
process for all applications from STANDARD passenger cars to emergency
vehicles"
and
"Pad bedding is needed for ALL types of pads (i.e.non-asbestos
organic, semi-metallic, carbon-metallic, ceramic metallic,etc.)."
I think the paragraph that follows that line which describes 'green
fade' sums up your problem. OK that's a kitcar site and you will
dismiss the terms STANDARD as meaning PERFORMANCE and ALL as meaning
RACE.
Maybe it's just Abex?
Try this link to a Bosch pdf document from downunder that also gives a
similar though slower speed bed in process on page 7.
"NEW from Bosch ae the PRO PLUS and ULTRA range of brake pads for
passenger and light commercial vehicles to suit most vehicle
applications" - again it doesn't read like race pads to me, typical
"branded" replacements just like Ferodo.
http://www.bosch.com.au/productcatalogue/sat/products/files/brake_pads.pdf
>Do you seriously think every housewife who takes her Focus or Fiesta into a
>Ford garage for new pads gets told she has to find a deserted country road and
>go through some arcane procedure to bed them in otherwise she'll end up under
>the back of an artic and kill all her children the first time she has to nail
>them on hard?
Seen a comment on a forum that suggested it would soon become an
installer job to bed pads in - more likely in the USA (land of the
free) where brake fitting is more regulated than here. If that
happens it will become a roller brake dyno job, not out on the road.
There is a TSB on Nissan brakes in the US that instructs the fitter to
bed pads in on the road on some early 90's 4x4's to avoid later
comeback for pulling unevenly as new pads start wearing though old
rotor's anti-wear coating.
New regs have resulted in changes to pads this year, especially low
end ones. UK punters may well be allowed to drive off with brakes
that will die the first time the brake force assist cuts in.
Guy King
from Peter Hill <peter....@nospam.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> New regs have resulted in changes to pads this year, especially low
> end ones. UK punters may well be allowed to drive off with brakes
> that will die the first time the brake force assist cuts in.
How so?
--
DocDelete
news:MPG.1b213382e...@News.Individual.Net...
> I did a work placement during my degree at TVR in Blackpool. The
> YTS-type lad there was legendary for his, ummmm, mishaps. He's had
> all the usual things done to him, poor thing ("go to stores and get
> me a compression will you - aaarghh, you've let it out the box" sort
> of stuff)
More OT but I know I guy who did an apprenticeship at a butcher's shop and
was asked to "go out the back and get a bucket of chicken lips"....the mind
boggles.
--
Ken Davidson
DocDelete
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31/05/04