2004 Meriva A, now it won't start at all.

[T i m]

Hi All,

A while back I mentioned our low mileage 1.6 V Meriva (A) started
being intermittent re starting. This was accompanied by the ignition
light coming on and staying on (but the (new) battery was charging
fine) and the fuel, rev and speed gauges being random (on / off).

However, if it started (and it generally did if left) it would run and
restart fine (as long as you didn't leave it too long).

Anyway, after being distracted by the constant rain, the central
locking on the 93 Astra (now behaving itself) and swapping the engine
for a spare on daughters motorbike, I've had a chance to look at the
Meriva again re the ECU plugs and their wiring (couldn't see anything
obvious) and just now, had the instrument cluster out to see if it was
the dreaded 'Corsa C dashboard plug problem' (it wasn't, it's on an
umbilical cable that was clean and plugged in fine).

So, I spin the engine over, I see RPM coming up after a few seconds on
my OpCom OBD reader (~225 rpm) and have everything good on al the
diagnostics except now I'm seeing '-40 DegC' on the air and coolant
sensors (? [1]) and the fuel pump is shown as 'Inactive'.

If I give it a puff of Easy Start it fires a couple of times so I know
its got compression / ignition etc.

When it has started it runs fine and has never stopped or failed to
start straight away (from hot at a petrol station etc).

When getting the instrument cluster out earlier I was able to check
the connector to the immobiliser / key reader and that looked fine
(and it seems happy with the keys and knows which is in each time etc)
and I've just had the glove box out in the hope the BCM would be
behind there but it wasn't, so, if for no reason other than I can say
I've had it out and checked all the connections and they were ok, I'd
like check the BCM over next. I've still to do any less than obvious
earths (all very clean so far) and then I'm not sure what's next. At
least if it stays a non-starter someone might be able to get a better
handle on why?

FWIW the same fault codes exist as from the beginning:

OP-COM 100219a - PC based diagnostic tool
OP-COM - KW2000 Communication Window> 2004 (4)|Meriva|Body|Body
Control Module
Total number of fault codes: 2
U2105 - CAN-Bus no Communication with ECM (Engine Control
Module)
(00) - Present
B1485 - Exciter Current Generator Terminal 61 Circuit Open
(09) - Not present

And:

OP-COM - KW2000 Communication Window> 2004 (4)|Meriva|Engine|Z 16 SE
P1615 - Wrong Vehicle ID from Body Control Module
(00) - Present
P1616 - Wrong Vehicle ID from Instrument Control Module
(00) - Present
U2107 - CAN-Bus no Communication with Body Control Module
(00) - Present

... but I have no idea why the ECM can't see the BCM (and visa versa)
when I can talk to both (unless there is a OBD interface path to both
but an intermittent (now broken) path between them)? After taking the
backs of the ECU plugs the other day, looking for broken wires it
started afterwards and I took it round the M25 for 30 mins, just to
get some charge back in the battery.

So, if I get the BCM out and that 'looks' ok (clean connectors, no
moisture inside etc) I'm not sure where to go next?

Cheers, T i m



[1] Which I assume suggests they aren't connected?

p.s. Oh and now I find daughters Corsa C drivers door remote central
locking doesn't work ... 'that stopped working a couple of days ago
and I forgot to tell you Dad ...' so that will be something else on
the ever lengthening 'to do' list. ;-(

[Mrcheerful]

why not just wire in a fuel pump feed and drive it?

[T i m]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 18:11:56 +0000, Mrcheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> So, I spin the engine over, I see RPM coming up after a few seconds on
>> my OpCom OBD reader (~225 rpm) and have everything good on al the
>> diagnostics except now I'm seeing '-40 DegC' on the air and coolant
>> sensors (? [1]) and the fuel pump is shown as 'Inactive'.
>>
>> If I give it a puff of Easy Start it fires a couple of times so I know
>> its got compression / ignition etc.
>>

<snip>

>
>why not just wire in a fuel pump feed and drive it?

Whilst I'd be happy to do that as a test prove the point, I'm not
sure it would be a good idea in the event of a crash etc would it?

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

I expect it has an inertia switch, just wire it through that.

[T i m]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 19:16:17 +0000, Mrcheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/03/2014 18:59, T i m wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 18:11:56 +0000, Mrcheerful
>> <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> So, I spin the engine over, I see RPM coming up after a few seconds on
>>>> my OpCom OBD reader (~225 rpm) and have everything good on al the
>>>> diagnostics except now I'm seeing '-40 DegC' on the air and coolant
>>>> sensors (? [1]) and the fuel pump is shown as 'Inactive'.
>>>>
>>>> If I give it a puff of Easy Start it fires a couple of times so I know
>>>> its got compression / ignition etc.
>>>>
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> why not just wire in a fuel pump feed and drive it?
>>
>> Whilst I'd be happy to do that as a test prove the point, I'm not
>> sure it would be a good idea in the event of a crash etc would it?
>>

>

>I expect it has an inertia switch, just wire it through that.

Oh ok thanks.

Can you answer me this though please. When it sometimes starts it just
runs for 1 second and then stops (often to not start again for a
while). If I then power up the fuel pump with the OpCom it doesn't
then start afterwards, So, is there some high pressure fuel stored
somewhere that the fuel pump isn't able to replenish (inside the
injector / injector pump etc)?

The pump I hear when I power up the 'fuel pump' seems to be coming
from the rear so I wouldn't think that would be pumping high
(injector) pressure fuel from back there would it?

(Sorry, whilst I understand the principals of fuel injection I'm not
familiar with it practically).

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

The pump is at the back and can deliver about 60 psi to the front, there
is a pressure relief valve which keep the normal run pressure at about
40 and keeps the pressure there for a while (should be overnight at
least) which is why it can run the engine for a moment or two if you try
to start it without the fuel pump running. A simple pressure test can
confirm whether fuel pressure is normal. Running the pump for just a
few seconds should be enough to bring pressure back to normal (again a
simple pressure test)

[T i m]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 21:19:08 +0000, Mrcheerful

>The pump is at the back and can deliver about 60 psi to the front, there
>is a pressure relief valve which keep the normal run pressure at about
>40 and keeps the pressure there for a while (should be overnight at
>least) which is why it can run the engine for a moment or two if you try
>to start it without the fuel pump running.

So, there is no other 'reservoir (even if it's just inside a hose or
high pressure pump body etc) of fuel held at a higher pressure
somewhere would allow the injectors to inject for a second or so?

I'm not feeling the link between the low pressure feed and what allows
the car to fire up instantly and then die (like a very small float
bowl on a carb rather than what fuel may be in a fuel line etc).

I ask because I'm not sure that running the pump manually has ever
then allowed the car to restart, even for that second?

>A simple pressure test can
>confirm whether fuel pressure is normal. Running the pump for just a
>few seconds should be enough to bring pressure back to normal (again a
>simple pressure test)

Hmm, well, whilst that may be happening it doesn't seem to help, but
if / when it does start it runs fine even at speed (normally a test of
fuel flow if I remember my principals correctly)?

I'm just thinking out loud of course and trying to match it to what I
have seen many times (it starting quickly and easily with just a dab
of the key an then trying a second later).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. In the old days you would rig up a bucket full of petrol and some
piping and hang it from the bonnet catch ... ;-)

[Mrcheerful]

No there is no pressure reserve tank (older cars had one), although the
fuel pump,the filter and the piping act as such. if one day it will run
normally, turn it off, pull the fuel pump fuse and when you try to
restart you will find it runs for just a second or so. Like I suggest,
get a fuel pressure tester and see what you actually have in the no
start condition. As to the bottle of petrol and a hose, I made up the
modern equivalent of a spare pump and a can !! It does of course run
unrestricted presure so it is a bit rich, but it can help diagnosis,
just as a ressure tester can. On some cars there is a schrader valve,
so you can use a tyre pressure gauge (with care)

[T i m]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 09:18:40 +0000, Mrcheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> So, there is no other 'reservoir (even if it's just inside a hose or
>> high pressure pump body etc) of fuel held at a higher pressure
>> somewhere would allow the injectors to inject for a second or so?
>>
>> I'm not feeling the link between the low pressure feed and what allows
>> the car to fire up instantly and then die (like a very small float
>> bowl on a carb rather than what fuel may be in a fuel line etc).
>>
>> I ask because I'm not sure that running the pump manually has ever
>> then allowed the car to restart, even for that second?
>>
>>> A simple pressure test can
>>> confirm whether fuel pressure is normal. Running the pump for just a
>>> few seconds should be enough to bring pressure back to normal (again a
>>> simple pressure test)
>>
>> Hmm, well, whilst that may be happening it doesn't seem to help, but
>> if / when it does start it runs fine even at speed (normally a test of
>> fuel flow if I remember my principals correctly)?
>>
>> I'm just thinking out loud of course and trying to match it to what I
>> have seen many times (it starting quickly and easily with just a dab
>> of the key an then trying a second later).
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>> p.s. In the old days you would rig up a bucket full of petrol and some
>> piping and hang it from the bonnet catch ... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>
>No there is no pressure reserve tank (older cars had one), although the
>fuel pump,the filter and the piping act as such.

Ah, ok (thanks), and so do you think that would be enough
high_pressure_capacity to allow it to run for about a second?

>if one day it will run
>normally, turn it off, pull the fuel pump fuse and when you try to
>restart you will find it runs for just a second or so.

Understood (and should answer my question above etc).

>Like I suggest,
>get a fuel pressure tester and see what you actually have in the no
>start condition.

Will do. OOI, Is it possible the pump pressure could be sufficiently
low to be on the threshold of whatever would need to be opened next
(injector pump presumably) yet still allow the car to run 'perfectly'
once it does start?

>As to the bottle of petrol and a hose, I made up the
>modern equivalent of a spare pump and a can !! It does of course run
>unrestricted presure so it is a bit rich, but it can help diagnosis,
>just as a ressure tester can.

Showoff (with yer fancy pumps). ;-)

>On some cars there is a schrader valve,
>so you can use a tyre pressure gauge (with care)
>

Looking here:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/fuel-pressure-gauge-tester

Many seem to add 'except for cis-jetronic, bosch and gm throttle body
systems'. Would the Meriva be a 'GM throttle body system'? ;-(

So, I'm hoping for a Schrader valve somewhere or would it be something
you would have to 'plumb in', albeit temporary?

Thanks again, cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

the fuel pump is the injection pump, the injectors on most cars are in
atmosphere (effectively), so the pressure needed is not great.
if the pressure available was too low to allow starting but high enough
to run then it would keep going after a puff of easy start.

the pressure regulator valve in the system is what maintains the
pressure at the engine end (otherwise the fuel would just continually
circle back to the tank at a very low pressure) If that fails then it
won't go, again a pressure test will show it up.

I cannot remember ever needing to test fuel pressure on a petrol
vauxhall so I don't know where the connector is, some cars you need to
add in a t piece to measure.

[T i m]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 12:59:01 +0000, Mrcheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> So, I'm hoping for a Schrader valve somewhere or would it be something
>> you would have to 'plumb in', albeit temporary?
>>
>> Thanks again, cheers, T i m
>>
>
>the fuel pump is the injection pump, the injectors on most cars are in
>atmosphere (effectively), so the pressure needed is not great.

Oh. I was thinking they were at some silly pressure but then that
could be diesels?

>if the pressure available was too low to allow starting but high enough
>to run then it would keep going after a puff of easy start.

Good point.

>
>the pressure regulator valve in the system is what maintains the
>pressure at the engine end (otherwise the fuel would just continually
>circle back to the tank at a very low pressure) If that fails then it
>won't go, again a pressure test will show it up.

Understood and thanks for the explanation.

>
>I cannot remember ever needing to test fuel pressure on a petrol
>vauxhall

Which suggests something as well possibly?

> so I don't know where the connector is, some cars you need to
>add in a t piece to measure.

Understood.

Thanks again Mr C ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Robert stirling]

replying to Mrcheerful, Robert stirling wrote:
Did you ever find out the problem? As my Meriva is behaving the same way but I
think it's to do with the instrument cluster

--
posted from
http://www.motorsforum.com/maintenance-uk/punto-annoyance-47689-.htm

[biro.istv...@gmail.com]

Hi!

Did you find the couse of the problem?
Unfortunately I have the same issue now with my meriva.
First the odometer failure and now the engine wont start.

[amg...@gmail.com]

it's common for the fuel pump to go , of you give the fuel tank a wake with your hand it jolts the pump to work briefly , then you know the pump is worn. and requires replacement , if it's not that then check the fuel pump relay as they stop working regularly. 👍