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Astra H running hot, and how not to top up coolant
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Andrew
Oct 30, 2015, 3:13:24 PM10/30/15
to
Greetings all,
I've just acquired a 59 plate Astra H (1.6 petrol, manual).
It seems to be running hot but without a temperature gauge it's
difficult to know what is normal and what is abnormal. The dealer (2nd
hand back-street place) isn't bothered, as far as they are concerned,
'modern cars runs hotter than old ones'. This is total BS of course,
modern cars have the same designed coolant range that cars had 20 years
ago. There is only so much pressure that a plastic header tank can
withstand. The main vauxhall agent says the normal coolant operating
range is 85 to 95 centigrade, but what at what temperature should the
cooling fan kick in ?, and what temperature is needed to illuminate the
red warning light ?. How would I test the latter to make sure the bulb
actually works ?. The coolant tank has two small bore pipes entering at
the top and where they enter the tank, the underside of the tank top
wall has an obvious black smudgy mark. Unfortunately there is a baffle
preventing me getting my finger in the wipe some of it off. Could this
be oil or disintegrating rubber/plastic ?. The dealer says this is
normal, but my old Astra F never did this.
On the right hand side of the cylinder head just below tha cam cover and
to the left of the thermostat block, I was measuring 102 centigrade and
yet the cooling fan still had not kicked in. By this time there was an
obvious 'hot plastic/rubber' smell in the area around the thermostat
block, totally different to the usual normal engine temperature smell,
so I abandoned the test and switched the engine off.
I suspect the thermostat is stuck partially open or doesn't open fully,
so that heater works effectively but not enough water is being sent to
the rad when it's at normal temperature. Any views on this ?.
Also, the dealer had filled up the header tank almost to the brim. I had
to remove a fair bit to get the level down to midway between KALT/COL
and full. When challenged, he was adamant that the correct way is to
fill right up to brim and allow the expansion to eject the excess !!.
This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone doing it this way.
New cars don't leave the production line like this do they ??. Doing it
this way would result in a vacuum forming as the engine cooled back down.
What coolant level do other people expect their *cold* engine to show ?.
Just curious.
I've just acquired a 59 plate Astra H (1.6 petrol, manual).
It seems to be running hot but without a temperature gauge it's
difficult to know what is normal and what is abnormal. The dealer (2nd
hand back-street place) isn't bothered, as far as they are concerned,
'modern cars runs hotter than old ones'. This is total BS of course,
modern cars have the same designed coolant range that cars had 20 years
ago. There is only so much pressure that a plastic header tank can
withstand. The main vauxhall agent says the normal coolant operating
range is 85 to 95 centigrade, but what at what temperature should the
cooling fan kick in ?, and what temperature is needed to illuminate the
red warning light ?. How would I test the latter to make sure the bulb
actually works ?. The coolant tank has two small bore pipes entering at
the top and where they enter the tank, the underside of the tank top
wall has an obvious black smudgy mark. Unfortunately there is a baffle
preventing me getting my finger in the wipe some of it off. Could this
be oil or disintegrating rubber/plastic ?. The dealer says this is
normal, but my old Astra F never did this.
On the right hand side of the cylinder head just below tha cam cover and
to the left of the thermostat block, I was measuring 102 centigrade and
yet the cooling fan still had not kicked in. By this time there was an
obvious 'hot plastic/rubber' smell in the area around the thermostat
block, totally different to the usual normal engine temperature smell,
so I abandoned the test and switched the engine off.
I suspect the thermostat is stuck partially open or doesn't open fully,
so that heater works effectively but not enough water is being sent to
the rad when it's at normal temperature. Any views on this ?.
Also, the dealer had filled up the header tank almost to the brim. I had
to remove a fair bit to get the level down to midway between KALT/COL
and full. When challenged, he was adamant that the correct way is to
fill right up to brim and allow the expansion to eject the excess !!.
This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone doing it this way.
New cars don't leave the production line like this do they ??. Doing it
this way would result in a vacuum forming as the engine cooled back down.
What coolant level do other people expect their *cold* engine to show ?.
Just curious.
Mrcheerful
Oct 30, 2015, 4:02:21 PM10/30/15
to
failed.
Andrew
Oct 30, 2015, 5:50:19 PM10/30/15
to
to borrow the kit from a place he does car jobs for.
I suggested to the dealer from whom I bought the car that this would be
a good starting point. Naturally he thinks it is a waste of time, and
went down the usual route - 'I've got 30 years experience, I know
everything, don't tell me anything, blah, blah, blah'.
If that is OK I think I will fit a new stat anyway, and compare the two
at various temperatures before refitting.
Arfa Daily
Oct 31, 2015, 6:02:46 AM10/31/15
to
"Andrew" <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:n10fgf$orp$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> Greetings all,
>
> I've just acquired a 59 plate Astra H (1.6 petrol, manual).
>
> It seems to be running hot but without a temperature gauge it's difficult
> to know what is normal and what is abnormal. The dealer (2nd hand
> back-street place) isn't bothered, as far as they are concerned, 'modern
> cars runs hotter than old ones'. This is total BS of course, modern cars
> have the same designed coolant range that cars had 20 years ago. There is
> only so much pressure that a plastic header tank can withstand. The main
> vauxhall agent says the normal coolant operating range is 85 to 95
> centigrade, but what at what temperature should the cooling fan kick in ?,
> and what temperature is needed to illuminate the red warning light ?. How
> would I test the latter to make sure the bulb actually works ?.
Why not buy a cheap ELM 327 OBD II analyser that works with your phone ?
>
> I've just acquired a 59 plate Astra H (1.6 petrol, manual).
>
> It seems to be running hot but without a temperature gauge it's difficult
> to know what is normal and what is abnormal. The dealer (2nd hand
> back-street place) isn't bothered, as far as they are concerned, 'modern
> cars runs hotter than old ones'. This is total BS of course, modern cars
> have the same designed coolant range that cars had 20 years ago. There is
> only so much pressure that a plastic header tank can withstand. The main
> vauxhall agent says the normal coolant operating range is 85 to 95
> centigrade, but what at what temperature should the cooling fan kick in ?,
> and what temperature is needed to illuminate the red warning light ?. How
> would I test the latter to make sure the bulb actually works ?.
Mine cost about seven quid from Amazon as I recall, and works just fine with
the Torque app on my smartphone. I have the paid version which cost a couple
of quid, and has a few more features, but my son has the free version, and
the analyser works ok with that as well. It will allow you to look at the
running coolant temperature, as well as lots of other useful things, and
also allows you to look at logged and pending fault codes in the ECU, and
clear them. Unless my son or anyone else wants to use it, I just leave mine
plugged into the port all the time.
Arfa
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 31, 2015, 7:33:03 AM10/31/15
to
Over-filling the header tank and letting the system find its own level by
ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are just
there to check it is ok after this has happened.
The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the temperature
by using the correct software. And that temperature will have a wide range
which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car stays exactly at the
same running temperature.
If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise the
boiling point of the coolant.
--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are just
there to check it is ok after this has happened.
The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the temperature
by using the correct software. And that temperature will have a wide range
which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car stays exactly at the
same running temperature.
If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise the
boiling point of the coolant.
--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
alan_m
Oct 31, 2015, 9:46:47 AM10/31/15
to
On 31/10/2015 10:02, Arfa Daily wrote:
> Why not buy a cheap ELM 327 OBD II analyser that works with your phone ?
> Mine cost about seven quid from Amazon as I recall, and works just fine
> with the Torque app on my smartphone. I have the paid version which cost
> a couple of quid, and has a few more features, but my son has the free
> version, and the analyser works ok with that as well. It will allow you
> to look at the running coolant temperature, as well as lots of other
> useful things, and also allows you to look at logged and pending fault
> codes in the ECU, and clear them. Unless my son or anyone else wants to
> use it, I just leave mine plugged into the port all the time.
>
> Arfa
+1
> Why not buy a cheap ELM 327 OBD II analyser that works with your phone ?
> Mine cost about seven quid from Amazon as I recall, and works just fine
> with the Torque app on my smartphone. I have the paid version which cost
> a couple of quid, and has a few more features, but my son has the free
> version, and the analyser works ok with that as well. It will allow you
> to look at the running coolant temperature, as well as lots of other
> useful things, and also allows you to look at logged and pending fault
> codes in the ECU, and clear them. Unless my son or anyone else wants to
> use it, I just leave mine plugged into the port all the time.
>
> Arfa
A £10 ELM327 from Ebay and the Torque App allows many engine related
parameters to be displayed in near real time.
Youtube setup and demonstration of use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_A7u1SqddI
--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Andrew
Oct 31, 2015, 10:16:02 AM10/31/15
to
On 31/10/2015 11:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Over-filling the header tank and letting the system find its own level by
> ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are just
> there to check it is ok after this has happened.
>
> The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the temperature
> by using the correct software. And that temperature will have a wide range
> which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car stays exactly at the
> same running temperature.
>
> If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
> isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise the
> boiling point of the coolant.
>
I have two neighbours who have over 100 years combined experience in the
> Over-filling the header tank and letting the system find its own level by
> ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are just
> there to check it is ok after this has happened.
>
> The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the temperature
> by using the correct software. And that temperature will have a wide range
> which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car stays exactly at the
> same running temperature.
>
> If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
> isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise the
> boiling point of the coolant.
>
motor trade and neither think it is correct to fill the header tank
right up. They both set the level about half and inch above the COLD
line when the engine is cold. If you fill right up, you are relying on
the coolant cap to release the pressure, which may be higher than the
rest of the cooling system is designed for. Also when the engine cools
down you will end up with a vacuum.
There is a bleed pipe, about 1/2 inch outside diameter coming from the
top of the rad into the top of the header tank. Where this pipe connects
to the header tank there is an obvious grey/black smudge and I can also
see small black lumps and specks elsewhere in the header tank.
Additionally, where this pipe joins the rad, it is weeping, but what is
coming out is oily and brownish. The dipstick oil is clean but looks
like it is fairly fresh and no sludge under the filler cap (yet).
I have now discovered that the Astra H has some secret menus where the
coolant temperature is displayed below the uncorrected outside temp,
together with the vehicle velocity.
Andrew
Oct 31, 2015, 10:21:11 AM10/31/15
to
On 31/10/2015 10:02, Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>
>
>
Garmin used to sell an OBDII device that connected to some versions of
their Sat navs and that displayed all the engine parameters interleaved
with sat nav data. Unfortunately it has been discontinued. It was useful
because it had a short cable between the sender box and the 16-pin plug
allowing it to be cliped up out of harms way. I am aware of the cheapo
chinese clones that plug right in but on some cars this obstructs the
drivers legs.
Arfa Daily
Oct 31, 2015, 10:38:23 AM10/31/15
to
news:n12iok$t71$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
That's very sad, and even sadder that you are prepared to admit to it ...
:-)
So ask one of your kids for one of their old phones. They all have them
coming out of their ears as they get new ones every six months. It doesn't
need to be live to a network to run the Torque app. You could get someone
else to download it to their phone for you, and then transfer via SD card or
computer and USB. And of course, it doesn't have to run on a phone. You can
use any old Android tablet that comes to hand. I'm not sure if there's a
version of Torque to run on Apple ios based tablets like the iPad, but if
not, there are other Bluetooth connected apps to do the same thing available
from iTunes
>
> Garmin used to sell an OBDII device that connected to some versions of
> their Sat navs and that displayed all the engine parameters interleaved
> with sat nav data. Unfortunately it has been discontinued. It was useful
> because it had a short cable between the sender box and the 16-pin plug
> allowing it to be cliped up out of harms way. I am aware of the cheapo
> chinese clones that plug right in but on some cars this obstructs the
> drivers legs.
So would it on your car ? And if so, then don't leave it plugged in. I only
leave it plugged into mine because it's out the way under a parcel shelf,
and it saves me losing it ...
If you actually got and used one, you would wonder why you hadn't had one
for years.
Arfa
>
>
:-)
So ask one of your kids for one of their old phones. They all have them
coming out of their ears as they get new ones every six months. It doesn't
need to be live to a network to run the Torque app. You could get someone
else to download it to their phone for you, and then transfer via SD card or
computer and USB. And of course, it doesn't have to run on a phone. You can
use any old Android tablet that comes to hand. I'm not sure if there's a
version of Torque to run on Apple ios based tablets like the iPad, but if
not, there are other Bluetooth connected apps to do the same thing available
from iTunes
>
> Garmin used to sell an OBDII device that connected to some versions of
> their Sat navs and that displayed all the engine parameters interleaved
> with sat nav data. Unfortunately it has been discontinued. It was useful
> because it had a short cable between the sender box and the 16-pin plug
> allowing it to be cliped up out of harms way. I am aware of the cheapo
> chinese clones that plug right in but on some cars this obstructs the
> drivers legs.
leave it plugged into mine because it's out the way under a parcel shelf,
and it saves me losing it ...
If you actually got and used one, you would wonder why you hadn't had one
for years.
Arfa
>
>
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 31, 2015, 10:48:26 AM10/31/15
to
In article <n12ieu$sll$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> There is a bleed pipe, about 1/2 inch outside diameter coming from the
> top of the rad into the top of the header tank. Where this pipe connects
> to the header tank there is an obvious grey/black smudge and I can also
> see small black lumps and specks elsewhere in the header tank.
> Additionally, where this pipe joins the rad, it is weeping, but what is
> coming out is oily and brownish. The dipstick oil is clean but looks
> like it is fairly fresh and no sludge under the filler cap (yet).
Well, the very first thing to do is sort any leaks.
> I have now discovered that the Astra H has some secret menus where the
> coolant temperature is displayed below the uncorrected outside temp,
> together with the vehicle velocity.
--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat
Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> On 31/10/2015 11:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Over-filling the header tank and letting the system find its own level
> > by ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are
> > just there to check it is ok after this has happened.
> >
> > The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the
> > temperature by using the correct software. And that temperature will
> > have a wide range which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car
> > stays exactly at the same running temperature.
> >
> > If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
> > isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise
> > the boiling point of the coolant.
> >
> I have two neighbours who have over 100 years combined experience in the
> motor trade and neither think it is correct to fill the header tank
> right up. They both set the level about half and inch above the COLD
> line when the engine is cold. If you fill right up, you are relying on
> the coolant cap to release the pressure, which may be higher than the
> rest of the cooling system is designed for. Also when the engine cools
> down you will end up with a vacuum.
If that's an accurate version of what they've told you they're idiots.
> On 31/10/2015 11:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Over-filling the header tank and letting the system find its own level
> > by ejecting any surplus is perfectly normal. The high/low marks are
> > just there to check it is ok after this has happened.
> >
> > The engine management will have a CTS, so can usually give the
> > temperature by using the correct software. And that temperature will
> > have a wide range which is acceptable depending on conditions. No car
> > stays exactly at the same running temperature.
> >
> > If it isn't losing coolant, it's probably ok. Measuring 100C somewhere
> > isn't unusual either - that's why the system is pressurized,to raise
> > the boiling point of the coolant.
> >
> I have two neighbours who have over 100 years combined experience in the
> motor trade and neither think it is correct to fill the header tank
> right up. They both set the level about half and inch above the COLD
> line when the engine is cold. If you fill right up, you are relying on
> the coolant cap to release the pressure, which may be higher than the
> rest of the cooling system is designed for. Also when the engine cools
> down you will end up with a vacuum.
> There is a bleed pipe, about 1/2 inch outside diameter coming from the
> top of the rad into the top of the header tank. Where this pipe connects
> to the header tank there is an obvious grey/black smudge and I can also
> see small black lumps and specks elsewhere in the header tank.
> Additionally, where this pipe joins the rad, it is weeping, but what is
> coming out is oily and brownish. The dipstick oil is clean but looks
> like it is fairly fresh and no sludge under the filler cap (yet).
> I have now discovered that the Astra H has some secret menus where the
> coolant temperature is displayed below the uncorrected outside temp,
> together with the vehicle velocity.
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat
Mrcheerful
Oct 31, 2015, 10:53:44 AM10/31/15
to
software available for a laptop.
Chris Whelan
Oct 31, 2015, 10:58:34 AM10/31/15
to
Arfa Daily wrote:
[...]
>> My phone is plugged into a wall socket marked 'BT' :-).
>
> That's very sad, and even sadder that you are prepared to admit to it ...
> :-)
>
> So ask one of your kids for one of their old phones.
Even sadder if he has no kids...
Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
[...]
>> My phone is plugged into a wall socket marked 'BT' :-).
>
> That's very sad, and even sadder that you are prepared to admit to it ...
> :-)
>
> So ask one of your kids for one of their old phones.
Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
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