Tyre noise

[johannes]

Which factors determine tyre noise? Is it just the tyre, or does wheel
geometry play a part?

I had a Dunlop SP Sport Blueresponse fitted to front N/S. Not what I
had ordered, but a mobile tyre fitter came and said they didn't have
what I ordered after all. So he fitted the Blueresponse which he had in
his van. I would normally pick a low-noise tyre.

This tyre is extremely noisy from the drivers RHD seat. The noise is so
bad that it really spoils the car. The noise is clearly road dependent,
and I checked that the inner wheel arch plastic lining is intact. The
pattern now has 2-3mm left.

[Adrian]

What's the label roadnoise figure for the road noise from that tyre and
from the one you wanted?

[johannes]

The Dunlop SP Sport Bluresponse tyre noise is listed as 68db, which
should be OK.

[MrCheerful]

A professional tyre fitter ? Don't make me laugh, anyone that would fit
one, odd, unordered tyre on the front of any road car is not a pro.

[Adrian]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:38:46 +0100, MrCheerful wrote:

> A professional tyre fitter ? Don't make me laugh, anyone that would fit
> one, odd, unordered tyre on the front of any road car is not a pro.

Bugger me, there's a lot of amateur volunteers spending their time
sitting around in tyre depots and vans around the country.

[MrCheerful]

I know they are out there, but why do people use them?

[Adrian]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:45:43 +0100, MrCheerful wrote:

>>> A professional tyre fitter ? Don't make me laugh, anyone that would
>>> fit one, odd, unordered tyre on the front of any road car is not a
>>> pro.

>> Bugger me, there's a lot of amateur volunteers spending their time
>> sitting around in tyre depots and vans around the country.

> I know they are out there, but why do people use them?

We'll call that a "whoosh", shall we?

[johannes]

Covenience of fitting at your work place; donked a tyre when pushed
towards the curb by a heavy lorry.

[MrCheerful]

On 06/06/2016 19:09, johannes wrote:

But why did you accept that tyre, fitted at the front?

[MrCheerful]

Someone doing a job is not a professional at it unless they can display
competence to do the job properly. Obviously I should have realised
that 'mobile tyre fitter' and professional are not the same thing at
all, and should not have mentioned it. It just amazes me that a bloke
in a van is allowed to fit one of the most important safety items on a
car without proper training or updating in important details of the job,
what else did he do wrong at the same time? I know quite a bit about
surgery, but I would not dream of working on a human unless it was life
or death.

[Nick Finnigan]

On 06/06/2016 17:47, johannes wrote:
>

> I had a Dunlop SP Sport Blueresponse fitted to front N/S. Not what I
> had ordered, but a mobile tyre fitter came and said they didn't have
> what I ordered after all. So he fitted the Blueresponse which he had in his
> van. I would normally pick a low-noise tyre.

68dB in the standard 205/55/16V, which is as quiet as you can easily get.

> This tyre is extremely noisy from the drivers RHD seat. The noise is so
> bad that it really spoils the car. The noise is clearly road dependent,
> and I checked that the inner wheel arch plastic lining is intact. The
> pattern now has 2-3mm left.

Not great for tread wear, but they should have lasted more than a month.

[steve robinson]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 22:59:00 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
wrote:

You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same infact in
some EU countries you can't have different brands on the vehicle full
stop.

[Adrian]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 23:13:36 +0100, steve robinson wrote:

> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same

Which, of course, they'll be with a new tyre and a 3/4-worn one, too. Or
one that's underinflated a bit.

Sure, mismatching isn't ideal, but I'd much rather have mismatched decent
tyres than matched AliBaba-brand-it-yourself ditchfinders.

> infact in some EU countries you can't have different brands on the
> vehicle full stop.

Really...? Which ones...?

[Peter Hill]

Has the wear on the other side increased as well?

Does the new tyre have the same load rating as the other tyres?

Have you had the tracking done? If you damaged a tyre the tracking has
almost certainly been put out as well.

[MrCheerful]

Spain requires identical tyres on each pair (ie fr. pair or back pair)

[johannes]

On 06/06/2016 23:30, Peter Hill wrote:
[...]

>
> Has the wear on the other side increased as well?

The tyre wear is fairly even.

> Does the new tyre have the same load rating as the other tyres?

Dn't know, but assume this is not really an issue for a 1400 Kg
passenger car carrying 1-2 persons driving non-agreesively and within
speed limits.

> Have you had the tracking done? If you damaged a tyre the tracking has
> almost certainly been put out as well.

Tracking seems OK, but can it really affect tyre noise? And why is it
assymetrical?

I was first thinking that there might be a clue in the tyre name:
"Bluresponse"; maybe they use harder compound to reduce rolling
resistance? But then the published noise number 68db is quite good.

But I have noticed is that the noise is very sensitive to different
road surfaces. That puts some doubt on how they obtain the noise
numbers.

[johannes]

On 06/06/2016 23:13, steve robinson wrote:

> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same infact in
> some EU countries you can't have different brands on the vehicle full
> stop.

Never had any problems with acceleration , braking or cornering.

[Adrian]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 06:35:50 +0100, johannes wrote:

>> Does the new tyre have the same load rating as the other tyres?

> Dn't know, but assume this is not really an issue for a 1400 Kg
> passenger car carrying 1-2 persons driving non-agreesively and within
> speed limits.

Yes, it is. Check.

[Adrian]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 06:35:50 +0100, johannes wrote:

> But I have noticed is that the noise is very sensitive to different road
> surfaces. That puts some doubt on how they obtain the noise numbers.

It's a standardised lab test.

[Gordon H]

This is beginning to sound like a Troll...

I wrecked a tyre on a badly lit "traffic calming" kerb a few years ago.
At midnight in a dodgy area of Manchester I chose to drive the 1.5 miles
home on the flat tyre.

E-Tyres fitted a matching replacement next day.
I would not have accepted an odd tyre under any circumstances.

Road noise is a distraction, some road surfaces are deliberately made
noisy, like the slip road off the M60 at the Ashton junction.
It makes the driver speed conscious as he approaches traffic signals. ;-)

--
Gordon H

Remove Invalid to reply

[MrCheerful]

It isn't me trolling !!!

It is the one odd summer tyre put on the front that is completely wrong,
complaining about the noise should not be the issue. Assuming the car
carries a spare then Johannes should put the new Dunlop as the spare and
get at least a pair of tyres on each end of the car (preferably all the
same make and type), with the best ones on the rear, if he goes to a
tyre shop with the qualifications of the fitters displayed on the walls
then there is a chance the job will be done correctly and safely.

[johannes]

Like the VW TDI was a standard lab test. It all depends...

[Adrian]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:39:53 +0100, MrCheerful wrote:

> if he goes to a tyre shop with the qualifications of the fitters
> displayed on the walls

Will a grade E GCSE in PE and a swimming certificate make a big
difference to whether the fitters are professionals or amateurs?

[johannes]

The Dunlop tyre is not just any low-rent tyre, and it hasn't caused me
any problems apart from the noise. Single tyres are often replaced as a
superior option to just repairing a puncture. There is so much that you
"should" do in an ideal world, preferably not driving at all. But time,
money are often the the bottlenecks, so you just use common sense and
not wasting time and money.

[Gordon H]

On 07/06/2016 09:39, MrCheerful wrote:

Well I KNEW that!

>
> It is the one odd summer tyre put on the front that is completely wrong,
> complaining about the noise should not be the issue. Assuming the car
> carries a spare then Johannes should put the new Dunlop as the spare and
> get at least a pair of tyres on each end of the car (preferably all the
> same make and type), with the best ones on the rear, if he goes to a
> tyre shop with the qualifications of the fitters displayed on the walls
> then there is a chance the job will be done correctly and safely.

10/10

[MrCheerful]

Perhaps they will have accreditation from having completed training
courses from tyre makers. Sorry if this is too complicated a concept
for you.

[Nick Finnigan]

On 06/06/2016 23:13, steve robinson wrote:>
>

> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same

I have an almost new Blue response on my rear non-axle, and also the 8 yo
unused Bridgestone ER300 which was a spare until I put a well worn Blue
Response in the boot. Grip under acceleration, braking and cornering is
much better now.

[Nick Finnigan]

I can see identical size, which must be appropriate for the car, but no
convincing reference to identical brand.

[Nick Finnigan]

On 07/06/2016 06:35, johannes wrote:>
> I was first thinking that there might be a clue in the tyre name:
> "Bluresponse"; maybe they use harder compound to reduce rolling
> resistance? But then the published noise number 68db is quite good.
>
> But I have noticed is that the noise is very sensitive to different
> road surfaces. That puts some doubt on how they obtain the noise
> numbers.

The Blue Response (like the Goodyear Efficient Grip and newer Michelin
Energy) is made to look good on the lab tests for the EU label. The
compound is not as hard as earlier Michelin Energy etc, and the wet grip is
better.

[T i m]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:27:30 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
wrote:

Is it a 'good idea' to use an 8 year old tyre, especially an unused
one? I heard it said there is some need for a tyre to 'move' (as in
flex) fairly regularly to keep the tyre supple?

Whilst fitting a towbar to the Meriva when gave it to us when Dad died
4 years ago I noticed quite extensive cracking and splitting between
the treads on the rear tyres. They were dated 2004 so were the
original tyres, fitted in the factory.

Even though they still had pretty good tread (for 10 years, 55,000
miles) I changed them anyway, simply because the potential
consequences weren't worth the risk.

Same with the tyres on my 1/2 goods trailer. They might have only done
1000 miles since I last changed them (I built the trailer ~40 years
ago) but the sidewalls were looking 'perished' and I was about to
collect a motorbike with / for our daughter over a good few miles of
motorway. Again, they may well have been 'legal' but I just didn't
want to risk it (even for 100 quid or so a pair).


Cheers, T i m

p.s. Not quite the same thing but wasn't there a bad coach crash (is
there ever a good one?) a while back where they had been running old
(possibly ex spare) tyres, one of which had failed and 3 people died?

Ah yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23320526

[RJH]

Different rubber compound, tread pattern and tyre wall stiffness on the
same pair? Mixing sounds like an unnecessary risk.

--
Cheers, Rob

[steve robinson]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:27:30 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
wrote:

It won't however be consistent for each tyre

[Chris Whelan]

It won't, but I sometimes wonder how important that might be.

I always replace tyres in axle pairs, never buy names I don't recognise, and
replace them as soon as possible after the tread depth is below three mm.

Plenty of folk I know have a much more casual attitude; they buy whatever
the tyre fitter says is the cheapest, only replace tyres when an MOT failure
is likely, and check pressures when one is visually soft. One ex-mechanic
almost exclusively uses part-worns purchased from a breakers!

They don't have a higher rate of accidents than me, or suffer a greater
number of punctures.

I wouldn't advocate their way - I try to persuade them otherwise - but
nonetheless they seem to be in the majority.

The other point to consider is that although your tyres might be the same
each side, at any given time the road surface may not be, especially with
the mess the roads are in now.

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[steve robinson]

If your just tatting about in the dry true its unlikely to be much of
an issue however once you start traveling on faster roads higher
speeds wet weather it can make all the difference.

Years ago i saw a BMW spin out of control on the motorway up near
Carlisle, fortunately no one was hurt but he did bounce it off the
central barrier, when you looked at the car you could see different
boots on different feet.

[Gordon H]

On 08/06/2016 09:05, steve robinson wrote:
>
> Years ago i saw a BMW spin out of control on the motorway up near
> Carlisle, fortunately no one was hurt but he did bounce it off the
> central barrier, when you looked at the car you could see different
> boots on different feet.
>

In the case of BMWs, I tend to think that the boot on the exhilerator
pedal is the usual cause of spins.

[steve robinson]

The spin was under braking

[T i m]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 09:33:30 +0100, Gordon H
<Gor...@g3snx.demon.co.invalid> wrote:

That certainly seemed it might be the case with someone I know who
recently wrote off his 5 series when it spun out on the straight in
the wet. Turns out he had put a set of 4 tyres on not long ago but the
rears were lacking tread for some reason? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 08:23:09 +0100, Chris Whelan
<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

>steve robinson wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:27:30 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 06/06/2016 23:13, steve robinson wrote:>
>>>>
>>>> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
>>>> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same
>>>
>>> I have an almost new Blue response on my rear non-axle, and also the 8
>>> yo
>>>unused Bridgestone ER300 which was a spare until I put a well worn Blue
>>>Response in the boot. Grip under acceleration, braking and cornering is
>>>much better now.
>>>
>> It won't however be consistent for each tyre
>
>It won't, but I sometimes wonder how important that might be.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you are just pootling about in a
big city (like London) where you rarely reach 30 mph, let alone go any
faster it probably doesn't make a lot of difference (most of the
time).

>
>I always replace tyres in axle pairs, never buy names I don't recognise, and
>replace them as soon as possible after the tread depth is below three mm.

+1

>
>Plenty of folk I know have a much more casual attitude; they buy whatever
>the tyre fitter says is the cheapest, only replace tyres when an MOT failure
>is likely, and check pressures when one is visually soft. One ex-mechanic
>almost exclusively uses part-worns purchased from a breakers!

Daughter bought her Connect from a mobile mechanic and the (fairly
new) front tyres weren't up to the recommended load rating. Now,
'legally', because of the rating of the van it wasn't *required* to
have specific load rating tyres, the only problem would be if at any
time the tyre became overloaded, questionably less chance of that
happening on the front (but not impossible) than had they been on the
back. But what if she had to swap the wheels round whilst the van was
loaded and *then* had an accident or got pulled by VOSA (or whoever).
So, she bought a set of 5 branded tyres of the correct 'recommended'
rating, 'because'.

>
>They don't have a higher rate of accidents than me, or suffer a greater
>number of punctures.

But it's like playing the Lottery isn't it? Id say my experience of
what I do and what 'most / many others' do (and 'get away with'?) is
very similar but I'd no sooner fit a 'part worn' tyre than I would a
second hand condom. Now, when the Astra was written off (whilst
parked) we were able to retain the fairly new front tyres because they
were the exact same size, make and model as the tyres on Daughters
Corsa. So, technically they were also 'part worn' / 'second hand' but
with a known history.

>
>I wouldn't advocate their way - I try to persuade them otherwise - but
>nonetheless they seem to be in the majority.

Agreed.

>
>The other point to consider is that although your tyres might be the same
>each side, at any given time the road surface may not be, especially with
>the mess the roads are in now.

That's a good point, especially say if braking hard in the wet.

I treat tyres like insurance. You don't really want to get involved in
them but they are important and could save it all ending in tears if
it all goes wrong so get something worth having. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <v4tblb164riopfu12...@4ax.com>,

steve robinson <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under

> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same infact in

> some EU countries you can't have different brands on the vehicle full
> stop.

Some cars have different sizes back and front. ;-)

--
*Who is this General Failure chap anyway - and why is he reading my HD? *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Scott M]

steve robinson wrote:

>> The other point to consider is that although your tyres might be the same
>> each side, at any given time the road surface may not be, especially with
>> the mess the roads are in now.

> If your just tatting about in the dry true its unlikely to be much of
> an issue however once you start traveling on faster roads higher
> speeds wet weather it can make all the difference.

I've always bought half decent tyres, usually in axle pairs. I have
occasionally carefully experimented to see if they're worse at the limit
or when temps are around freezing. I have come to the conclusion that
there's nothing significant in it and the limits of a half-decent tyre
in less than optimal conditions are still happily above what's needed if
the driver is awake and not a ham fisted/footed idiot. Different treads
left to right might be important in absolute extremis but doesn't seem
to make any odds.

Recently tho I've had the joy of aquiring a pair of Runways that came
with a set of alloys I bought. They sit on the back of my RWD cooking
diesel. In the dry they seem very good; me and a friend were both quite
impressed when we gave them some stick. However, a couple of times in
the limited wet we've had lately, they seem to be utterly dire. Twice
the back has stepped out unexpectedly, once was with a bit of heavy foot
(but nothing a, say, P6000 would have been troubled by) and, if I'd
wanted, I probably could have kept it sliding until I reached the Atlantic.

So unmatched tyres worry my way less than crap ones!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

[Chris Whelan]

Scott M wrote:

[...]

> So unmatched tyres worry my way less than crap ones!

+1

I would rather have 2mm branded tyres than brand new Teflon ones!

[Gordon H]

On 08/06/2016 12:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <v4tblb164riopfu12...@4ax.com>,
> steve robinson <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
>> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same infact in
>> some EU countries you can't have different brands on the vehicle full
>> stop.
>
> Some cars have different sizes back and front. ;-)
>

Yep! Top Gear's Richard Hammond drove a car with big rear tyres, and
had a dreadful crash. ;-)

[Nick Finnigan]

Which is still possible whilst having the same brand. Having less than
5mm of tread on a tyre might seem an unnecessary risk to some people.

[Steve Walker]

It's not just the cheapest tyres either.

16 or 17 years ago a company I worked for switched from Pirelli to
Dunlop replacement tyres on their company cars. Within a month, two
people complained of losing grip at a particular roundabout near the
offices at the first rain after having worn tyres replaced. The basic
problem was an unusually slippery surface on that particular roundabout
combined with seemingly significantly less wet-grip with the Dunlops.

[Steve Walker]

On 08/06/2016 12:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <v4tblb164riopfu12...@4ax.com>,
> steve robinson <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
>> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same infact in
>> some EU countries you can't have different brands on the vehicle full
>> stop.
>
> Some cars have different sizes back and front. ;-)

And it's not beyond the bounds of probibility that at some point it can
become impossible to source the two different sized front and rear tyres
from any one manufacturer. Or even if you can, it could take a week or
more to get them in - not much use when you're stuck half-way through a
journey!

[Nick Finnigan]

On 07/06/2016 23:47, T i m wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:27:30 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 06/06/2016 23:13, steve robinson wrote:>
>>>
>>> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
>>> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same
>>
>> I have an almost new Blue response on my rear non-axle, and also the 8 yo
>> unused Bridgestone ER300 which was a spare until I put a well worn Blue
>> Response in the boot. Grip under acceleration, braking and cornering is
>> much better now.
>>
> Is it a 'good idea' to use an 8 year old tyre, especially an unused
> one? I heard it said there is some need for a tyre to 'move' (as in
> flex) fairly regularly to keep the tyre supple?

It has been stored in a cool dry place away from direct sunlight.

> Whilst fitting a towbar to the Meriva when gave it to us when Dad died
> 4 years ago I noticed quite extensive cracking and splitting between
> the treads on the rear tyres. They were dated 2004 so were the
> original tyres, fitted in the factory.

And had been distorted under load in all conditions.

[MrCheerful]

cough...brexit

[Peter Hill]

On 08/06/2016 13:21, Scott M wrote:

> However, a couple of times in
> the limited wet we've had lately, they seem to be utterly dire. Twice
> the back has stepped out unexpectedly, once was with a bit of heavy foot
> (but nothing a, say, P6000 would have been troubled by) and, if I'd
> wanted, I probably could have kept it sliding until I reached the Atlantic.
>
> So unmatched tyres worry my way less than crap ones!
>

I have found that Firestone TZ300 stick to the road far far better than
"ditch finder" P6000 and a set lasts twice as long (possibly because
they aren't spinning).

Just 170 ponies though the back axle.

250 bhp might restore the fun. Should I get a stage 2 chip, T28 turbo,
boost controller for 14-15psi, high flow fuel pump and Volvo/SAAB
inter-cooler? Trouble is it then needs feeding 99 RON fuel.

[T i m]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 17:50:22 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>

wrote:

>On 07/06/2016 23:47, T i m wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:27:30 +0100, Nick Finnigan <N...@genie.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/06/2016 23:13, steve robinson wrote:>
>>>>
>>>> You should never have different brands on the same axle , Grip under
>>>> acceleration , braking and cornering will not be the same
>>>
>>> I have an almost new Blue response on my rear non-axle, and also the 8 yo
>>> unused Bridgestone ER300 which was a spare until I put a well worn Blue
>>> Response in the boot. Grip under acceleration, braking and cornering is
>>> much better now.
>>>
>> Is it a 'good idea' to use an 8 year old tyre, especially an unused
>> one? I heard it said there is some need for a tyre to 'move' (as in
>> flex) fairly regularly to keep the tyre supple?
>
> It has been stored in a cool dry place away from direct sunlight.

But not being regularly flexed?

>
>> Whilst fitting a towbar to the Meriva when gave it to us when Dad died
>> 4 years ago I noticed quite extensive cracking and splitting between
>> the treads on the rear tyres. They were dated 2004 so were the
>> original tyres, fitted in the factory.
>
> And had been distorted under load in all conditions.

Yes, 'worn out' (which doesn't necessarily mean the tread is worn out)
and why I replaced them immediately.

Without saying 'it's your call', you could be the one who has a
blowout and kills any of us. ;-(

Not saying you will of course, or even what the odds are (just because
you are running an 8 year old tyre that hasn't been used from new),
just that it's getting pretty close to the 10 years 'maximum life'
that some are calling for (used or otherwise) and 1 year over the '7
years' they often suggest as a maximum for caravans etc (again, used
or not).

I'm guessing they wouldn't mark tyres with their manufactured date if
it wasn't relevant?

Cheers, T i m

[Nick Finnigan]

On 08/06/2016 18:49, T i m wrote:

>
> I'm guessing they wouldn't mark tyres with their manufactured date if
> it wasn't relevant?

Needed for traceability in case of a manufacturing problem.

No idea why they put 'Treadwear 300, Traction A, Temperature A' on.

[MrCheerful]

treadwear: big number harder longer lasting, little number more grip.
300 is good grip

http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/motorsport-messages-from-marshall/utqg-treadwear-numbers-what-do-they-mean

[johannes]

On 07/06/2016 09:39, MrCheerful wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 09:06, Gordon H wrote:
>> On 06/06/2016 19:32, MrCheerful wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2016 18:46, Adrian wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:45:43 +0100, MrCheerful wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> A professional tyre fitter ? Don't make me laugh, anyone that would
>>>>>>> fit one, odd, unordered tyre on the front of any road car is not a
>>>>>>> pro.
>>>>
>>>>>> Bugger me, there's a lot of amateur volunteers spending their time
>>>>>> sitting around in tyre depots and vans around the country.
>>>>
>>>>> I know they are out there, but why do people use them?
>>>>
>>>> We'll call that a "whoosh", shall we?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Someone doing a job is not a professional at it unless they can display
>>> competence to do the job properly. Obviously I should have realised
>>> that 'mobile tyre fitter' and professional are not the same thing at
>>> all, and should not have mentioned it. It just amazes me that a bloke
>>> in a van is allowed to fit one of the most important safety items on a
>>> car without proper training or updating in important details of the job,
>>> what else did he do wrong at the same time? I know quite a bit about
>>> surgery, but I would not dream of working on a human unless it was life
>>> or death.
>>
>> This is beginning to sound like a Troll...
>>
>> I wrecked a tyre on a badly lit "traffic calming" kerb a few years ago.
>> At midnight in a dodgy area of Manchester I chose to drive the 1.5 miles
>> home on the flat tyre.
>>
>> E-Tyres fitted a matching replacement next day.
>> I would not have accepted an odd tyre under any circumstances.
>>
>> Road noise is a distraction, some road surfaces are deliberately made
>> noisy, like the slip road off the M60 at the Ashton junction.
>> It makes the driver speed conscious as he approaches traffic signals.
>> ;-)
>>
>
> It isn't me trolling !!!
>
> It is the one odd summer tyre put on the front that is completely wrong,
> complaining about the noise should not be the issue. Assuming the car
> carries a spare then Johannes should put the new Dunlop as the spare and
> get at least a pair of tyres on each end of the car (preferably all the
> same make and type), with the best ones on the rear, if he goes to a
> tyre shop with the qualifications of the fitters displayed on the walls
> then there is a chance the job will be done correctly and safely.

It is a blessing that the tyre fitter can come to you. Very special
equipment is required for fitting and balancing from a van, so it's not
something any rogue fitter can get his hands on. Certificates are on a
decent website, presumably it's a franchised part of a bigger outfit,
so why should we think that the fitter is not qualified? Going to a
tyre shop require advanced booking, and then you still have to wait
when arriving there.

Replacing a tyre is a superior solution to repairing a tyre. I never
drive my car to the limit anyway. Modern tyres are hugely over designed
for normal practical use at legal speed limits; just look and the load
and speed ratings for the bluresponse: 91 = 615Kg, 149mph

[MrCheerful]

If it had been a proper, knowledgeable, trained fitter then it would not
have been fitted to the front. Also particularly worrying is that it is
a summer tyre.

How you normally drive has little to do with what happens in an
emergency, that is when you discover the truth about a lot of things.
Particularly as you sail on onwards, seeming to accellerate toward the
object you hit, your foot firmly on the brake pedal, the abs clicking
away, yet not stopping as you should be able to, and you realise that
ultimately the tyres are the most important component involved in
sticking to the road.

[johannes]

On 09/06/2016 09:45, MrCheerful wrote:
[...]

If the front tyre then becomes the better tyre, then it follows by
physics that brake length is reduced compared to fitting at the rear
and swapping to the front.

[MrCheerful]

A new tyre does not magically give the shortest stopping distance.

The use of the best/new tyres on the rear of cars is well established as
the safest thing to do all round. A good fitter will actually refuse to
fit a new tyre/s to the front only.

Summer tyres are much less grippy when the weather gets colder (the very
time you might need the most grip)

[Graham J]

MrCheerful wrote:
[snip]

>
> The use of the best/new tyres on the rear of cars is well established as
> the safest thing to do all round. A good fitter will actually refuse to
> fit a new tyre/s to the front only.

That seems counter-intuitive. Is there a credible explanation, please?

--
Graham J

[Chris Whelan]

GIYF ;-)

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html

amongst hundreds of others.

[steve robinson]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 11:37:34 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
wrote:

Yes it stops the rear end stepping out under hard braking or heavy
maneuvering

[johannes]

We were talking about straight line braking distance and good
condition rear tyres.

Anything can happen in an accident/near miss. It is not possible to
predict whether stopping will work or not; just look at youtube.
Accidents happen mostly due to:

1. Impatient drives
2. Bloodymindedness
3. Insistence of road space
4. Lack of anticipation of what other drivers might or might not do
5. Intolerance of drivers not sure of directions
6. Intolerance of drivers making minor mistakes
7. Cognitive overload (distractions)

[Chris Whelan]

johannes wrote:

[...]

> Anything can happen in an accident/near miss. It is not possible to
> predict whether stopping will work or not; just look at youtube.
> Accidents happen mostly due to:
>
> 1. Impatient drives
> 2. Bloodymindedness
> 3. Insistence of road space
> 4. Lack of anticipation of what other drivers might or might not do
> 5. Intolerance of drivers not sure of directions
> 6. Intolerance of drivers making minor mistakes
> 7. Cognitive overload (distractions)

By far the biggest cause of road accidents is lack of attention. That might
be because the driver is distracted, or simply has a low level of
understanding of the need for concentration.

[johannes]

By far the biggest cause of road accidents is driving too close;
tailgaiting. I see it a couple of times every week.

[Graham J]

Chris Whelan wrote:
> Graham J wrote:
>
>> MrCheerful wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> The use of the best/new tyres on the rear of cars is well established as
>>> the safest thing to do all round. A good fitter will actually refuse to
>>> fit a new tyre/s to the front only.
>>
>> That seems counter-intuitive. Is there a credible explanation, please?
>
> GIYF ;-)
>
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

That's contentious - it is claimed that it is better to know that front
wheels are slipping rather than have better grip at the front.

>
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html

This claims that understeer is preferable to the chance of having enough
front grip to steer away from a problem.

It also claimed that it's more difficult to control a car with a damaged
rear tyre. Particularly with front wheel drive I would doubt that.

Both claims seem counter-intuitive - I've had a tyre fail on the rear
(on a dry road, with front wheel drive) and found that the car was easy
to steer and bring to a safe stop. Apart from the strange noise I would
not have known there was anything wrong. I really doubt whether that
would have been possible if a front tyre had failed.

--
Graham J

[MrCheerful]

There is always the chance of something bizarre happening, and that is
when you will find out how important grip is (whether it is for stopping
or swerving), even the most attentive, cautious driver can get caught out.

[Chris Whelan]

johannes wrote:

[...]

>> By far the biggest cause of road accidents is lack of attention. That
>> might be because the driver is distracted, or simply has a low level of
>> understanding of the need for concentration.
>
> By far the biggest cause of road accidents is driving too close;
> tailgaiting. I see it a couple of times every week.

Your view is different to both the police and the road safety organisations
then.

[Chris Whelan]

I too once doubted this advice, but the weight of evidence is overwhelming
in favour.

[johannes]

So what? It stands to reason that if you keep proper distance, then
there is more chance of getting out of trouble. But all too often
somebody pops in and steal that space.

[Clive George]

On 09/06/2016 13:03, Graham J wrote:

>> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
>
> This claims that understeer is preferable to the chance of having enough
> front grip to steer away from a problem.
>
> It also claimed that it's more difficult to control a car with a damaged
> rear tyre. Particularly with front wheel drive I would doubt that.
>
> Both claims seem counter-intuitive - I've had a tyre fail on the rear
> (on a dry road, with front wheel drive) and found that the car was easy
> to steer and bring to a safe stop. Apart from the strange noise I would
> not have known there was anything wrong. I really doubt whether that
> would have been possible if a front tyre had failed.

Ditto - I've had two rear tyre failures. Well, one was a failure, one
was discovering the tyre on the car wasn't lumpy.

The first was me noticing while being a passenger in the back that there
was a regular ticking noise from the back wheel. Pull over, inspect
tyre, tread is coming off. Well, the tyre did cost a whole fiver :-)
Replace, carry on - driver hadn't noticed anything untoward.

The second was more recent. The new (to me) car had a vibration at
certain speeds, so I decided to play wheel swapping to get to the bottom
of it. When I moved the offending tyre to the front, I got scared at
20mph, it was misbehaving that much. Felt fine at 70+ on the back.

I'm more inclined to believe the thing about grip and understeer, but
damage? Nah.

[Nick Finnigan]

Yes, but why put them on the tyre ?

[MrCheerful]

so that purchasers can know what they are buying by a standardised
number system that can be visually confirmed

[alan_m]

On 09/06/2016 13:38, Chris Whelan wrote:

>
> I too once doubted this advice, but the weight of evidence is overwhelming
> in favour.
>

While I don't doubt the advice but something often repeated on the
Internet is not an overwhelming weight of evidence. It needs to backed
up with reference to the experimental evidence.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[MrCheerful]

On 14/06/2016 09:54, alan_m wrote:
> On 09/06/2016 13:38, Chris Whelan wrote:
>
>>
>> I too once doubted this advice, but the weight of evidence is
>> overwhelming
>> in favour.
>>
>
> While I don't doubt the advice but something often repeated on the
> Internet is not an overwhelming weight of evidence. It needs to backed
> up with reference to the experimental evidence.
>
>

I believe Michelin did the most testing. Summary of results on
different vehicles here:
http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/better-tyres-in-the-front-or-rear-test-results

[Chris Whelan]

alan_m wrote:

> On 09/06/2016 13:38, Chris Whelan wrote:
>
>>
>> I too once doubted this advice, but the weight of evidence is
>> overwhelming in favour.
>>
>
> While I don't doubt the advice but something often repeated on the
> Internet is not an overwhelming weight of evidence. It needs to backed
> up with reference to the experimental evidence.

It depends who is repeating it.

Google, and you will find all the tyre manufacturers have done significant
research, and concluded overall, new on rear is best.

The same is true of the AA, and ADAC. (The much-respected German motoring
organisation.)

[T i m]

I'm not sure if these have been offered so far but also quite
interesting (and demonstrate why you should have the 'better' (tread
depth) tyres on the rear, if for no other reason than resisting
aquaplaning):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0

And this is some skid pan!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6mARVoDwjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9hzcjdi5Q

Now, during 'other conditions' when you have had a blowout or are on
snow I'm not sure you are really talking about the same thing, the
issues that can occur when ordinary people are driving ordinary cars
on ordinary roads in the wet and one end or the other 'goes light'.

For the same logic, if you are doing a track day *in the dry* you
might want the new tyres on the back and the bald (= slicks) on the
front as again, more people can deal with under than over-steer,
especially on a FWD car.

YMMV etc. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Gordon H]

IMHO,
If you always drive within safe limits and allow for road conditions,
talk of rear end break away is academic.
If you don't always drive safely, you shouldn't be driving.


--
Gordon H

Remove Invalid to reply

[steve robinson]

Its not the way you drive its avoiding others who are not driving
safely . Its the avoiding that's the issue, you need to take sudden
avoiding action because the numbly in the left lane does something
stupid your relying on the grip of the rear tyres

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:11:23 +0100, Gordon H
<Gor...@g3snx.demon.co.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> Now, during 'other conditions' when you have had a blowout or are on
>> snow I'm not sure you are really talking about the same thing, the
>> issues that can occur when ordinary people are driving ordinary cars
>> on ordinary roads in the wet and one end or the other 'goes light'.
>>
>> For the same logic, if you are doing a track day *in the dry* you
>> might want the new tyres on the back and the bald (= slicks) on the
>> front as again, more people can deal with under than over-steer,
>> especially on a FWD car.
>>

>IMHO,
>If you always drive within safe limits and allow for road conditions,
>talk of rear end break away is academic.

As you say, IYHO. ;-)

So, you have just traveled 500 miles along all sorts of roads in the
rain and you come round a long sweeping corner on a dual carriageway
where there just happens to be an unpredictably large amount of
standing water on the road and you then test the 'front or back'
theory.

Or are you saying you would be able to predict that happening just
there?

>If you don't always drive safely, you shouldn't be driving.

So by 'driving safely' in the above scenario would either mean having
a crystal ball fitted in your car (ok as long as it's hands free <g>)
or driving sufficiently slowly over the entire 500 miles *in case* you
came across such a situation? <shrug>

How many people drive though say a heavily wooded / forest area at
such a speed that they could *guarantee* to stop in the event of
something running out in front of them?

How many motorcyclists take every corner or roundabout at such a speed
that they could *guarantee* they could stay upright, even if there was
a diesel spill?

How many people drive sufficiently slowly that they could *guarantee*
to never be caught out by a pothole full of water?

How many people drive sufficiently slowly along the motorway to
*guarantee* to be able to avoid the artic crossing the central
reservation?

Now, in (your) theory you could drive sufficiently slowly to be able
to *guarantee* you could avoid most of those instances (you won't
avoid a piano falling off a lorry from a bridge above you for example)
but I think you would be run off the road long before you left your
town. ;-(

I'm not saying the status-quo is right of course, but ITRW etc.

Cheers, T i m

[Gordon H]

LOL!
Funny you should mention a piano falling from a bridge...

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:34:41 +0100, Gordon H
<Gor...@g3snx.demon.co.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>> Now, in (your) theory you could drive sufficiently slowly to be able
>> to *guarantee* you could avoid most of those instances (you won't
>> avoid a piano falling off a lorry from a bridge above you for example)
>> but I think you would be run off the road long before you left your
>> town. ;-(
>>
>> I'm not saying the status-quo is right of course, but ITRW etc.
>>

>>

>LOL!
>Funny you should mention a piano falling from a bridge...

I know, luckily you upgraded your crystal ball that same morning. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[MrCheerful]

Last December I was pleased to have a set of possibly the best tyres
available (Michelin Alpin winter tyres) on my Focus when a van coming
from the opposite direction drifted off the road and into a wall, the
van shot into the air, landed on its side and, roof toward me, slid
onward, I swerved off to the left up a verge and only received a clip
from the top of his roof as he went past. Braking would have planted me
heavily in his roof.
No-one could have predicted that crash would happen, and I am one of the
first to blame myself for not foreseeing something about to transpire,
but thanks to a responsive car, quick reactions honed in banger driving
and good tyres we practically speaking got away with it. It seems the
driver was on his phone. No prosecution for him, just a driver
alertness course.

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:03:10 +0100, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> I know, luckily you upgraded your crystal ball that same morning. ;-)

>

>Last December I was pleased to have a set of possibly the best tyres
>available (Michelin Alpin winter tyres) on my Focus when a van coming
>from the opposite direction drifted off the road and into a wall, the
>van shot into the air, landed on its side and, roof toward me, slid
>onward, I swerved off to the left up a verge and only received a clip
>from the top of his roof as he went past.

Did it happen in slomo Dave?

> Braking would have planted me
>heavily in his roof.

Ok.

>No-one could have predicted that crash would happen,

Quite, and these things do happen and in many cases nothing short of a
crystal ball could help.

> and I am one of the
>first to blame myself for not foreseeing something about to transpire,
>but thanks to a responsive car, quick reactions honed in banger driving
>and good tyres we practically speaking got away with it.

Yup and had any of those things been less than they were (inc tyres)
the outcome could have been very different.

>It seems the
>driver was on his phone. No prosecution for him, just a driver
>alertness course.

In spite of the fact that it was only you that avoided it potentially
being much (much) worse than it was.

I'm not sure where I stand on that ... when people say 'Luckily no one
got killed' when in some cases 'luck' had little to do with it but I
guess you can't charge people for what might have happened (although
everyone done for using their mobile non-hands free whilst driving
normally or being over the drink limit is being treated that way).

I had a similar experience in the Sierra estate and it didn't end in
tears for similar reasons to yours, but the only reason the other
party 'got away with it' was because of me.

The real frustrating ones are when that sort of thing happens, you
save the day and the other driver gives *you* the finger! It's at
times like that I wish I was driving a tank or had a rail gun ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:44:38 +0100, T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>>Last December I was pleased to have a set of possibly the best tyres
>>available (Michelin Alpin winter tyres) on my Focus when a van coming
>>from the opposite direction drifted off the road and into a wall, the
>>van shot into the air, landed on its side and, roof toward me, slid
>>onward, I swerved off to the left up a verge and only received a clip
>>from the top of his roof as he went past.
>
>Did it happen in slomo Dave?
>

<snip>

Sorry, 'MrC' (just saw that as I hit 'send'). ;-(

Cheers, T i m