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Vectra diesel starter relay - where is it?
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Graham J
Jul 6, 2015, 3:29:20 PM7/6/15
to
Vehicle is Vectra Club DTI 16v with 2 litre engine. Manufactured
November 2004. Engine is Y20DTH.
Local garage gave me printout from their Autodata system of "Charging &
Starting System" circuit diagram.
It shows starter relay is K4.
I have a problem with intermittent failure to start, and would like to
identify whether problem is with relay or the starter itself. During
failure, turning key to start position produces a click. After trying
up to a dozen times in quick succession the starter then spins normally
and engine starts.
Please, where is this relay?
I've looked in the fuse box on the front left of the engine bay,
adjacent to the battery, but there the relays are labelled as "R"
numbers, not "K", and there is no R4, just an empty space with a pcb
visible through the holes in the plastic housing where there would be
connectors in another variant.
Haynes manual doesn't give any good pictures (and its circuit diagram is
different to the one from Autodata - it has the starter relay as K1).
TIA
--
Graham J
November 2004. Engine is Y20DTH.
Local garage gave me printout from their Autodata system of "Charging &
Starting System" circuit diagram.
It shows starter relay is K4.
I have a problem with intermittent failure to start, and would like to
identify whether problem is with relay or the starter itself. During
failure, turning key to start position produces a click. After trying
up to a dozen times in quick succession the starter then spins normally
and engine starts.
Please, where is this relay?
I've looked in the fuse box on the front left of the engine bay,
adjacent to the battery, but there the relays are labelled as "R"
numbers, not "K", and there is no R4, just an empty space with a pcb
visible through the holes in the plastic housing where there would be
connectors in another variant.
Haynes manual doesn't give any good pictures (and its circuit diagram is
different to the one from Autodata - it has the starter relay as K1).
TIA
--
Graham J
Etaoin Shrdlu
Jul 6, 2015, 4:24:12 PM7/6/15
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9z3XszzEs
These things often appear on youtube. Without it, I'd never have found
the flasher relay on me sister's Meriva. They stuck it on the bulkhead
under the rainwater grill near the windscreen wipers.
Graham J
Jul 8, 2015, 11:27:17 AM7/8/15
to
1. Left side of trunk - no, only small and large fuses like the video.
2. Left side of dash - no, only many small fuses and one large (40A)
like the video. But there is a nice clip stowed on inside of the cover
to use for pulling out fuses!
3. Under hood, next to battery - no. In mine, the location R4 is south
of the red relay in the video, and as in the video it is empty.
Is the Autodata schematic wrong? Seems unlikely since garage had to
know the vehicle registration number to get the diagram ...
Any ideas?
TIA
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 8, 2015, 11:45:06 AM7/8/15
to
adjacent to fuse 30, easy way to locate it is to get someone else to
operate the switch while you hold each relay
Graham J
Jul 8, 2015, 4:06:52 PM7/8/15
to
How do you mean "shown"? Is this on a drawing you have, or on the
underside of the fuse cover?
On mine the underside of the fuse cover only shows the fuses; and the
relays by "R" number. The one marked R6 is black, half the thickness of
the other relays and is positioned the ams as in the video tothe lower
right of the square red relay so it is in the right hand column north of
the white square relay. But mine doesn't have this white one.
How are these numbers supposed to relate to the Autodata drawing?
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 8, 2015, 5:22:53 PM7/8/15
to
illustration shows the starter relay roughly in the middle by fuse 30.
Another way to isolate the correct relay is to removeeach one in turn
and try the starter, no click means you have got the right one.
Graham J
Jul 9, 2015, 2:19:55 AM7/9/15
to
Mrcheerful wrote:
[snip]
>>> starter relay is shown as number 6 on the underbonnet fuse/relay plate
>>> adjacent to fuse 30, easy way to locate it is to get someone else to
>>> operate the switch while you hold each relay.
>>
>> How do you mean "shown"? Is this on a drawing you have, or on the
>> underside of the fuse cover?
>>
>> On mine the underside of the fuse cover only shows the fuses; and the
>> relays by "R" number. The one marked R6 is black, half the thickness of
>> the other relays and is positioned the ams as in the video tothe lower
>> right of the square red relay so it is in the right hand column north of
>> the white square relay. But mine doesn't have this white one.
>>
>> How are these numbers supposed to relate to the Autodata drawing?
>>
>
> I am going by an earlier autodata than the one the garage used. the
> illustration shows the starter relay roughly in the middle by fuse 30.
> Another way to isolate the correct relay is to remove each one in turn
untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
- perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
the starter from operating?
I see that there is a place for blind trial-and-error in faultfinding,
but a knowledge of what the circuit should be does help!
Preaumably a Vauxhall service agent would have the correct schematic -
or do even they rely on trial-and-error for faultfinding?
My previous experience of the local place is that they would have
replaced the whole car piece by piece before finding the actual cause of
the problem - whereas an independent chap I went to used his knowledge
of the circuit and some test equipment he had made for himself to
identify the problem in half a minute. This was an intermittent failure
of the connection from the air inlet temperature sensor to the ECU
(inside the ECU housing). By that time the Vauxhall agent had replaced
the fuel pump and filters; to no effect other than taking money off me,
obviously. Sadly that independent chap is no longer trading, having
died of old age ...
--
Graham J
[snip]
>>> starter relay is shown as number 6 on the underbonnet fuse/relay plate
>>> adjacent to fuse 30, easy way to locate it is to get someone else to
>>> operate the switch while you hold each relay.
>>
>> How do you mean "shown"? Is this on a drawing you have, or on the
>> underside of the fuse cover?
>>
>> On mine the underside of the fuse cover only shows the fuses; and the
>> relays by "R" number. The one marked R6 is black, half the thickness of
>> the other relays and is positioned the ams as in the video tothe lower
>> right of the square red relay so it is in the right hand column north of
>> the white square relay. But mine doesn't have this white one.
>>
>> How are these numbers supposed to relate to the Autodata drawing?
>>
>
> I am going by an earlier autodata than the one the garage used. the
> illustration shows the starter relay roughly in the middle by fuse 30.
> and try the starter, no click means you have got the right one.
>
What you're suggesting is that the schematic from Autodata is
>
untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
- perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
the starter from operating?
I see that there is a place for blind trial-and-error in faultfinding,
but a knowledge of what the circuit should be does help!
Preaumably a Vauxhall service agent would have the correct schematic -
or do even they rely on trial-and-error for faultfinding?
My previous experience of the local place is that they would have
replaced the whole car piece by piece before finding the actual cause of
the problem - whereas an independent chap I went to used his knowledge
of the circuit and some test equipment he had made for himself to
identify the problem in half a minute. This was an intermittent failure
of the connection from the air inlet temperature sensor to the ECU
(inside the ECU housing). By that time the Vauxhall agent had replaced
the fuel pump and filters; to no effect other than taking money off me,
obviously. Sadly that independent chap is no longer trading, having
died of old age ...
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 9, 2015, 2:59:14 AM7/9/15
to
by looking in a book, I have often found wiring faults by waggling
things around, watching a test meter or listening closely to see what
occurs. In your case you say that you can hear the relay click, that
might be the remote relay or the relay on the starter, first thing is to
establish where the click is coming from.
Chris Whelan
Jul 9, 2015, 3:48:42 AM7/9/15
to
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 07:19:53 +0100, Graham J wrote:
[...]
> What you're suggesting is that the schematic from Autodata is
> untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
> - perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
> the starter from operating?
The deficiency is not that of Autodata, rather that manufacturers make
changes during production runs that are not well documented. There are
also often differences where a particular model is made in more than one
location.
> Preaumably a Vauxhall service agent would have the correct schematic -
> or do even they rely on trial-and-error for faultfinding?
A schematic will not help you locate a component; its function is to help
you understand how things are inter-connected. They will often just swap
bits, especially low-value ones like relays, because it's quicker than
fault-finding 'properly'. Welcome to the 21st century!
> My previous experience of the local place is that they would have
> replaced the whole car piece by piece before finding the actual cause of
> the problem - whereas an independent chap I went to used his knowledge
> of the circuit and some test equipment he had made for himself to
> identify the problem in half a minute.
Always worth trying to find a recommended local independent.
Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
[...]
> What you're suggesting is that the schematic from Autodata is
> untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
> - perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
> the starter from operating?
changes during production runs that are not well documented. There are
also often differences where a particular model is made in more than one
location.
> Preaumably a Vauxhall service agent would have the correct schematic -
> or do even they rely on trial-and-error for faultfinding?
you understand how things are inter-connected. They will often just swap
bits, especially low-value ones like relays, because it's quicker than
fault-finding 'properly'. Welcome to the 21st century!
> My previous experience of the local place is that they would have
> replaced the whole car piece by piece before finding the actual cause of
> the problem - whereas an independent chap I went to used his knowledge
> of the circuit and some test equipment he had made for himself to
> identify the problem in half a minute.
Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
Mrcheerful
Jul 9, 2015, 5:35:18 AM7/9/15
to
On 09/07/2015 07:19, Graham J wrote:
the Jag main dealer used to ring him with problems on older Jags, one
day they phoned and asked about an E type that had been brought in for a
service and the next morning (still at the garage) now would not start,
he asked how far out had they pulled the choke, they actually asked:
'What is a choke?' Young mechanics had never come across carbs with a
manual choke. I was surprised that there was not some older foreman
mechanic, but apparently even the lead mechanic is just a slightly
cleverer youngster these days.
Graham J
Jul 9, 2015, 9:03:45 AM7/9/15
to
windows & hood closed. The click is audible but faint.
Once it did fail while I stood beside the driver's door reaching in
through the window, and with the hood open. The click seemed to come
from the area of the starter - but was even then not very loud, not as
loud as I would expect. But this is a pre-engaged starter, not one with
a Bendix screw.
What I want to do is remove the correct relay and simulate its contacts
closing with a piece of wire - with the ignition off; so I can hear what
the starter soleniod sounds like. My luck will be that it will always
crank when I try this, so I won't be able to confirm that the
solenoid/engagement mechanism is actually faulty. But if it seems
reliable then I can always get another relay or wire up a switch inside
the car ...
If the schematic is untrustworthy this might be difficult, since the
power to those contacts might come from another relay.
--
Graham J
Graham J
Jul 9, 2015, 9:06:58 AM7/9/15
to
Chris Whelan wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 07:19:53 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> What you're suggesting is that the schematic from Autodata is
>> untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
>> - perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
>> the starter from operating?
>
> The deficiency is not that of Autodata, rather that manufacturers make
> changes during production runs that are not well documented. There are
> also often differences where a particular model is made in more than one
> location.
>
>> Presumably a Vauxhall service agent would have the correct schematic -
> On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 07:19:53 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> What you're suggesting is that the schematic from Autodata is
>> untrustworthy. How then do I know that there might not be another relay
>> - perhaps part of an anti-theft system - that if removed would also stop
>> the starter from operating?
>
> The deficiency is not that of Autodata, rather that manufacturers make
> changes during production runs that are not well documented. There are
> also often differences where a particular model is made in more than one
> location.
>
>> or do even they rely on trial-and-error for faultfinding?
>
> A schematic will not help you locate a component;
But it ought to help you identify it. So if the schematic says K1 and
>
> A schematic will not help you locate a component;
Mr Cheerful says R6 - is that the level of documetation failure you
would expect?
> its function is to help
> you understand how things are inter-connected. They will often just swap
> bits, especially low-value ones like relays, because it's quicker than
> fault-finding 'properly'. Welcome to the 21st century!
>
>> My previous experience of the local place is that they would have
>> replaced the whole car piece by piece before finding the actual cause of
>> the problem - whereas an independent chap I went to used his knowledge
>> of the circuit and some test equipment he had made for himself to
>> identify the problem in half a minute.
>
> Always worth trying to find a recommended local independent.
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 9, 2015, 9:11:26 AM7/9/15
to
starter's solenoid, hit the other end to battery plus and the starter
should turn, if it doesn't then the starter is the fault.
Chris Whelan
Jul 9, 2015, 9:31:24 AM7/9/15
to
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 14:06:57 +0100, Graham J wrote:
[...]
[...]
> But it ought to help you identify it. So if the schematic says K1 and
> Mr Cheerful says R6 - is that the level of documetation failure you
> would expect?
That's not a failure of the documentation at all. You are confusing two
> Mr Cheerful says R6 - is that the level of documetation failure you
> would expect?
things; K1 is a schematic designation, and will appear on a circuit
diagram, whilst R6 is a physical positional designation.
Chris.
Mrcheerful
Jul 9, 2015, 12:56:33 PM7/9/15
to
weak battery can give you the symptoms you describe, at 10 years old it
may still have the original battery, which may still work but would have
lost some capacity, and reduced voltage can give any vehicle problems,
particularly vauxhalls.
Graham J
Jul 9, 2015, 4:14:27 PM7/9/15
to
Mrcheerful wrote:
[snip]
ago while identifying an intermittent fault code (actually the MAF
sensor, which causes the dashboard light to come on occasionally).
I asked my garage exactly this question: would a weak battery cause the
solenoid to operate but the contacts fail to close; and their answer was
no, definitely not. Their suspicion was more that the brushes were not
reliably contacting the commutator, and it was chance whether or not the
motor would turn. I suppose it's possible that the contacts in the
solenoid are dirty?
When it does turn it cranks happily for several seconds before starting;
taking longer in warm weather (strange?); it has been generally fairly
quick to start in cold weather. The cranking speed is definitely down
on what it was several months ago. I had it in mind to replace the
battery before winter.
The failures have been intermittent since last Friday. I probably start
it 5 or 6 times per day and mostly it starts first try. If it fails to
start then up to about 6 more tries have so far been needed. So far it
is as likely to fail at any time during the day rather than first time
in the morning when everything is a bit cooler, and the battery might
have lost some charge overnight.
On one occasion so far I've started it in the evening; it wasn't
properly dark but with the headlights on I could see them dip
momentarily as I operated the key; and on that occasion the starter
didn't engage. So the current drawn by the solenoid was enough for me
to notice its effect on the lights; but I was deliberately looking for
it. I then turned the lights off for my second try, and of course it
cranked immediatley.
I have not replaced the battery in the 3 years I've had the car; so if
it is the original it's doing pretty well ...
All the cars I've had previously (which have included Vauxhalls) have
normally engaged the starter and tried to crank when the battery was
weak - simply cranked too slowly or not for long enough to fire. I've
never know a weak battery cause the solenoid to fail to operate properly.
It looks like half a day's work for me to get the starter out (jack up
front, remove undertray, remove exhaust - all to gain access to the
starter mounting bolts and remove it). I have to work on my driveway: I
don't have a hoist or air-driven nut driver. So I'm not keen to take
out the starter simply to check.
--
Graham J
[snip]
>
> The thing that just occurred to me is: What state is the battery? A
> weak battery can give you the symptoms you describe, at 10 years old it
> may still have the original battery, which may still work but would have
> lost some capacity, and reduced voltage can give any vehicle problems,
> particularly vauxhalls.
Yes the battery is weak. I was advised this in passing about a month
> The thing that just occurred to me is: What state is the battery? A
> weak battery can give you the symptoms you describe, at 10 years old it
> may still have the original battery, which may still work but would have
> lost some capacity, and reduced voltage can give any vehicle problems,
> particularly vauxhalls.
ago while identifying an intermittent fault code (actually the MAF
sensor, which causes the dashboard light to come on occasionally).
I asked my garage exactly this question: would a weak battery cause the
solenoid to operate but the contacts fail to close; and their answer was
no, definitely not. Their suspicion was more that the brushes were not
reliably contacting the commutator, and it was chance whether or not the
motor would turn. I suppose it's possible that the contacts in the
solenoid are dirty?
When it does turn it cranks happily for several seconds before starting;
taking longer in warm weather (strange?); it has been generally fairly
quick to start in cold weather. The cranking speed is definitely down
on what it was several months ago. I had it in mind to replace the
battery before winter.
The failures have been intermittent since last Friday. I probably start
it 5 or 6 times per day and mostly it starts first try. If it fails to
start then up to about 6 more tries have so far been needed. So far it
is as likely to fail at any time during the day rather than first time
in the morning when everything is a bit cooler, and the battery might
have lost some charge overnight.
On one occasion so far I've started it in the evening; it wasn't
properly dark but with the headlights on I could see them dip
momentarily as I operated the key; and on that occasion the starter
didn't engage. So the current drawn by the solenoid was enough for me
to notice its effect on the lights; but I was deliberately looking for
it. I then turned the lights off for my second try, and of course it
cranked immediatley.
I have not replaced the battery in the 3 years I've had the car; so if
it is the original it's doing pretty well ...
All the cars I've had previously (which have included Vauxhalls) have
normally engaged the starter and tried to crank when the battery was
weak - simply cranked too slowly or not for long enough to fire. I've
never know a weak battery cause the solenoid to fail to operate properly.
It looks like half a day's work for me to get the starter out (jack up
front, remove undertray, remove exhaust - all to gain access to the
starter mounting bolts and remove it). I have to work on my driveway: I
don't have a hoist or air-driven nut driver. So I'm not keen to take
out the starter simply to check.
--
Graham J
Graham J
Jul 9, 2015, 4:19:59 PM7/9/15
to
I come from an electronics background where for example resistor R1 is
called that on the schematic and is labelled as R1 on the printed
circuit board.
For ICs it may be that IC 5 is at grid location 66 but that is only
because in some designs all ICs are a similar size and fit nicely on a grid.
Many schematics label the component by a grid-like reference as to where
it is on the particular page of schematic, and also show the physical
location on the PCB.
In your example, in my car the engine bay fusebox all the fuses are have
F numbers and all the relays have R numbers. The fuses are roughly in
numerical order from front to back, and the relays dot about in no
special order. So I rather doubt your statement.
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 9, 2015, 6:22:07 PM7/9/15
to
Chris Whelan
Jul 10, 2015, 3:27:26 AM7/10/15
to
My background was as an industrial electrician, primarily working with
production control systems. I also designed and built in-house control
panels. Labelling was most often done in the way you describe; an
assigned designation was carried by a device both on a circuit diagram,
and at its location.
In the automotive industry it has never been done like that. I suspect
that each manufacturer uses their own system whereby a relay that
performs a specific function carries a certain designation. For example,
K6 might refer to the starter relay on all models. Clearly, component
location varies by model, so a different designation is used for that.
I'm not that familiar with GM vehicles, but from experience, and studying
Autodata diagrams, I'm pretty sure that's the way Ford does it.
Just be thankful that you are not trying to sort an electrical problem on
a Peugeot; I doubt that there are any two vehicles made that are
identical WRT designation or wire colour even if assembled next to each
other!
Chris
Graham J
Jul 10, 2015, 3:57:27 AM7/10/15
to
Years ago (1970) I owned an Austin Champ for a few months - each of the
wires carried a label explaining its function, and the loom contained
spares. Of course that was in the days before relays were used to
automate things.
The starter had a Bendix screw and the teeth on the cog for the ring
gear were worn, so sometimes it would spin and bounce off the ring gear.
The rear transmission had already failed so it was running on front
wheel drive only; in due course the front transmission failed also -
while driving up Scotts Hill, Rickmansworth. I gave the vehicle away to
a specialist dealer who went to collect it.
Originally it cost me £15 (so about £170 in today's money).
--
Graham J
Chris Whelan
Jul 10, 2015, 6:00:43 AM7/10/15
to
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 08:57:26 +0100, Graham J wrote:
[...]
[...]
> Years ago (1970) I owned an Austin Champ for a few months - each of the
> wires carried a label explaining its function, and the loom contained
> spares. Of course that was in the days before relays were used to
> automate things.
>
> The starter had a Bendix screw and the teeth on the cog for the ring
> gear were worn, so sometimes it would spin and bounce off the ring gear.
>
> The rear transmission had already failed so it was running on front
> wheel drive only; in due course the front transmission failed also -
> while driving up Scotts Hill, Rickmansworth. I gave the vehicle away to
> a specialist dealer who went to collect it.
>
> Originally it cost me £15 (so about £170 in today's money).
The Wikipedia entry for the Champ is quite informative.
> wires carried a label explaining its function, and the loom contained
> spares. Of course that was in the days before relays were used to
> automate things.
>
> The starter had a Bendix screw and the teeth on the cog for the ring
> gear were worn, so sometimes it would spin and bounce off the ring gear.
>
> The rear transmission had already failed so it was running on front
> wheel drive only; in due course the front transmission failed also -
> while driving up Scotts Hill, Rickmansworth. I gave the vehicle away to
> a specialist dealer who went to collect it.
>
> Originally it cost me £15 (so about £170 in today's money).
Vehicle electrics are becoming increasingly complex now. I doubt there is
anything mainstream that is not multi-plexed, so without the means to
interrogate the network and the skills to so so, repairs such as you are
attempting would be very challenging.
Graham J
Jul 10, 2015, 6:59:05 AM7/10/15
to
Chris Whelan wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 08:57:26 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Years ago (1970) I owned an Austin Champ for a few months - each of the
>> wires carried a label explaining its function, and the loom contained
>> spares. Of course that was in the days before relays were used to
>> automate things.
>>
>> The starter had a Bendix screw and the teeth on the cog for the ring
>> gear were worn, so sometimes it would spin and bounce off the ring gear.
>>
>> The rear transmission had already failed so it was running on front
>> wheel drive only; in due course the front transmission failed also -
>> while driving up Scotts Hill, Rickmansworth. I gave the vehicle away to
>> a specialist dealer who went to collect it.
>>
>> Originally it cost me £15 (so about £170 in today's money).
>
> The Wikipedia entry for the Champ is quite informative.
[snip]
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 08:57:26 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Years ago (1970) I owned an Austin Champ for a few months - each of the
>> wires carried a label explaining its function, and the loom contained
>> spares. Of course that was in the days before relays were used to
>> automate things.
>>
>> The starter had a Bendix screw and the teeth on the cog for the ring
>> gear were worn, so sometimes it would spin and bounce off the ring gear.
>>
>> The rear transmission had already failed so it was running on front
>> wheel drive only; in due course the front transmission failed also -
>> while driving up Scotts Hill, Rickmansworth. I gave the vehicle away to
>> a specialist dealer who went to collect it.
>>
>> Originally it cost me £15 (so about £170 in today's money).
>
> The Wikipedia entry for the Champ is quite informative.
I don't remember any synchro in the gearbox - I learnt to
double-declutch on it - one certainly could not change down without;
trying produced a horrible grating sound.
The Champ I had was 24v with one of the batteries used to feed 12v to an
add-on flashing turn indicator.
Mine had a cylindrical power take-off about 3 inches diameter in the LH
footwell (I think) which somebody told me was for powering up tanks.
I saw one in a farmer's shed about 1995 which had virtually rusted away
to nothing.
The vehicle I bought to replace it was an 850cc minivan that cost me £95
in spring 1971. I kept it going for about 4 years and sold it to a
scrap dealer for £5. The steering was loose, rear wheel bearings had
failed and were runnning on brass powder from the ball cages; I started
it and replace the good battery with a dead one just to get it to the
scrap man and I took the headlamp bulbs. I thought the scrap dealer
would break it for spares - the tyres were reasonable. A week later a
mate saw it being driven about by a gypsy with his wife and kids in it!
--
Graham J
Chris Whelan
Jul 10, 2015, 8:05:29 AM7/10/15
to
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:59:04 +0100, Graham J wrote:
[...]
[...]
> I don't remember any synchro in the gearbox - I learnt to
> double-declutch on it - one certainly could not change down without;
> trying produced a horrible grating sound.
Synchro from that era barely lasted the life of the warranty - usually
> double-declutch on it - one certainly could not change down without;
> trying produced a horrible grating sound.
six months!
> The Champ I had was 24v with one of the batteries used to feed 12v to an
> add-on flashing turn indicator.
Graham J
Jul 13, 2015, 4:26:15 AM7/13/15
to
Mrcheerful wrote:
[snip]
> First get a new correct spec. battery.
Interesting. Not used car since Friday, so it has had the weekend for
battery to lose charge.
Today it cranked first try and started quickly. Went on an errand -
about 2 miles - parked for 20 minutes.
So second try - starter fails to crank. Solution learned by trial and
error is to operate starter key several times in rapid succession -
faster than once per second - it might take half a dozen tries but so
far it has always cranked OK.
Does this suggest a dirty contact in the solenoid or some interaction
with the pinion on the ring gear which prevents the soleniod from
closing fully?
--
Graham J
[snip]
> First get a new correct spec. battery.
battery to lose charge.
Today it cranked first try and started quickly. Went on an errand -
about 2 miles - parked for 20 minutes.
So second try - starter fails to crank. Solution learned by trial and
error is to operate starter key several times in rapid succession -
faster than once per second - it might take half a dozen tries but so
far it has always cranked OK.
Does this suggest a dirty contact in the solenoid or some interaction
with the pinion on the ring gear which prevents the soleniod from
closing fully?
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 13, 2015, 5:32:18 AM7/13/15
to
If several clicks make it go, then it would suggest that the 'points' in
either the remote relay or the solenoid on the starter are not making
proper contact, this may be because they are really crudded up, or it
may be that they are not being smacked together forcefully enough. IIRC
The pinion on the starter is spring loaded, so it doesn't matter if it
has engaged or not, the starter should still spin up. You can add a
heavyish wire to the small contact on the starter and touch the other
end to battery live, if it starts straight away (when it had been
clicking), then you will have eliminated the starter itself (but don't
take failure to spin as being the starter faulty, it may be leads,
battery or just bad connections).
Things to check: battery voltage, battery voltage when cranking and
battery voltage across engine and starter big lead (at the starter) when
cranking, if they vary by more than a couple of volts or so then there
is a problem with battery or earths to engine or main power lead to starter.
Graham J
Jul 13, 2015, 6:00:12 AM7/13/15
to
Mrcheerful wrote:
> On 13/07/2015 09:26, Graham J wrote:
>> Mrcheerful wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> First get a new correct spec. battery.
>>
>> Interesting. Not used car since Friday, so it has had the weekend for
>> battery to lose charge.
>>
>> Today it cranked first try and started quickly. Went on an errand -
>> about 2 miles - parked for 20 minutes.
>>
>> So second try - starter fails to crank. Solution learned by trial and
>> error is to operate starter key several times in rapid succession -
>> faster than once per second - it might take half a dozen tries but so
>> far it has always cranked OK.
>>
>> Does this suggest a dirty contact in the solenoid or some interaction
>> with the pinion on the ring gear which prevents the soleniod from
>> closing fully?
>>
>
> Have you eliminated the starter relay in the fuse box?
By ear - yes. The clicking I can hear is definitely from the the
> On 13/07/2015 09:26, Graham J wrote:
>> Mrcheerful wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> First get a new correct spec. battery.
>>
>> Interesting. Not used car since Friday, so it has had the weekend for
>> battery to lose charge.
>>
>> Today it cranked first try and started quickly. Went on an errand -
>> about 2 miles - parked for 20 minutes.
>>
>> So second try - starter fails to crank. Solution learned by trial and
>> error is to operate starter key several times in rapid succession -
>> faster than once per second - it might take half a dozen tries but so
>> far it has always cranked OK.
>>
>> Does this suggest a dirty contact in the solenoid or some interaction
>> with the pinion on the ring gear which prevents the soleniod from
>> closing fully?
>>
>
> Have you eliminated the starter relay in the fuse box?
starter solenoid, not the relay in the fusebox. The sound comes from
the right area of the engine and has the right metallic character. In
the dark, the lights dim fractionally as the solenoid operates so
there's significant current going through the solenoid.
> If several clicks make it go, then it would suggest that the 'points' in
> either the remote relay or the solenoid on the starter are not making
> proper contact, this may be because they are really crudded up, or it
> may be that they are not being smacked together forcefully enough.
> IIRC
> The pinion on the starter is spring loaded, so it doesn't matter if it
> has engaged or not, the starter should still spin up.
> You can add a
> heavyish wire to the small contact on the starter and touch the other
> end to battery live, if it starts straight away (when it had been
> clicking), then you will have eliminated the starter itself (but don't
> take failure to spin as being the starter faulty, it may be leads,
> battery or just bad connections).
>
> Things to check: battery voltage, battery voltage when cranking and
> battery voltage across engine and starter big lead (at the starter) when
> cranking, if they vary by more than a couple of volts or so then there
> is a problem with battery or earths to engine or main power lead to
> starter.
voltage while cranking.
It will be easier to diagnose when the fault becomes permanent -
hopefully I can sell the car before then.
--
Graham J
Mrcheerful
Jul 13, 2015, 9:03:12 AM7/13/15
to
contacts in the solenoid are burnt a bit. The solenoid itself takes
quite a heavy current, easy enough to make the lights dim, especially if
the battery is down .
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