Meriva temp gauge and rado q's

[T i m]

Hi all,

04 Meriva 1.6 8V, 45k. (Was Dads, giving it a go re possibly being
given it by Mum)

When driving about normall the temperature gauge seems to sit off the
bottom of the scale (so less than 80degC if it's reading true). It
does move up when idling in traffic etc but I would have thought the
thermostat would have held it a bit warmer than that? (Heater seems to
work ok).

It's currently fitted with the factory radio cassette that I note has
it's info relayed on the dash display console thingy. If I was to take
on the car I'd probably change the radio / cass for a removable fascia
CD / MP3 type unit but what of the external indications? Do they
simply go dead (I imagine 'yes') or are there any that can feed such a
display? Is it a standard (maybe with some conversion plugs etc) or
would I have to get a better Vauxhall unit?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers, T i m

[Adrian C]

On 18/03/2012 22:36, T i m wrote:

> It's currently fitted with the factory radio cassette that I note has
> it's info relayed on the dash display console thingy. If I was to take
> on the car I'd probably change the radio / cass for a removable fascia
> CD / MP3 type unit but what of the external indications? Do they
> simply go dead (I imagine 'yes') or are there any that can feed such a
> display? Is it a standard (maybe with some conversion plugs etc) or
> would I have to get a better Vauxhall unit?

I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort hacking about
getting original equipment ancilary controls to work with replacement
audio. If external indicators and stalk controls go dead, than so be it.
I rarely use them anyway.

If you are really keen, connects2 is the bunch that makes interfaces.
http://www.connects2.co.uk

--
Adrian C

[Rob]

On 19/03/2012 9:36 AM, T i m wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> 04 Meriva 1.6 8V, 45k. (Was Dads, giving it a go re possibly being
> given it by Mum)
>
> When driving about normall the temperature gauge seems to sit off the
> bottom of the scale (so less than 80degC if it's reading true). It
> does move up when idling in traffic etc but I would have thought the
> thermostat would have held it a bit warmer than that? (Heater seems to
> work ok).
>

Change the sender unit.

[rp]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:36:45 +0000, T i m wrote:

>When driving about normall the temperature gauge seems to sit off the
>bottom of the scale (so less than 80degC if it's reading true). It
>does move up when idling in traffic etc but I would have thought the
>thermostat would have held it a bit warmer than that? (Heater seems to
>work ok).

Does it move up much when idling in traffic? Sounds as though it might
be the thermostat on it's way out. I don't remember seeing the
temperature rise when idling in a modern car but it's been a long while
since I did any decent runs.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com

[Chris Whelan]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 06:27:25 +0000, rp wrote:

[...]

> Does it move up much when idling in traffic? Sounds as though it might
> be the thermostat on it's way out. I don't remember seeing the
> temperature rise when idling in a modern car but it's been a long while
> since I did any decent runs.

Modern cars don't really have a temperature gauge; it's just a three-
state indicator.

The changes in traffic density, coupled with the sophisticated control
systems of modern cars means they operate over a much wider temperature
range than in the past. A proper gauge would have worried owners
pestering dealers with non-existent faults, the the signal to the so-
called gauge just shows "below temperature", "above temperature", and
"within acceptable limits".

Some cars manage over-temperature situations pretty well themselves. For
example, many Ford models of the last decade or so will shut down
alternate pairs of cylinders every other firing cycle. The cooling effect
of a cycle with air but no heat will bring the engine temperature back
down. If the temperature continues to rise, the engine will be shut down
before damage is caused.

Some cars already omit a gauge, relying on a warning light system
instead. I see this as becoming the norm in future; not many drivers of
the last 20 years or so would ever bother to keep a sufficient check on
engine temperature anyway!

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[T i m]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:50:48 +0000, Adrian C <em...@here.invalid>
wrote:

>On 18/03/2012 22:36, T i m wrote:
>
>> It's currently fitted with the factory radio cassette that I note has
>> it's info relayed on the dash display console thingy. If I was to take
>> on the car I'd probably change the radio / cass for a removable fascia
>> CD / MP3 type unit but what of the external indications? Do they
>> simply go dead (I imagine 'yes') or are there any that can feed such a
>> display? Is it a standard (maybe with some conversion plugs etc) or
>> would I have to get a better Vauxhall unit?
>
>I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort hacking about
>getting original equipment ancilary controls to work with replacement
>audio. If external indicators and stalk controls go dead, than so be it.
>I rarely use them anyway.

I don't think this one has any stalk controls for that (not looked
mind) but just the dash display pod where the date changes to radio
info when the radio is turned on?

Wouldn't be a major loss as long as it didn't screw up the whole
module for just changing the radio (which actually sounds / works ok
but I wouldn't imagine has an 'Aux' input for an external player of
some sort (so just have to use a cassette adaptor)).

>If you are really keen, connects2 is the bunch that makes interfaces.
>http://www.connects2.co.uk

Ok, I may well not bother then but that link is now bookmarked,
thanks. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

In case it changes anything ... it's actually reading under 70 deg C
under normal driving conditions over a 30 min / ~50 mph journey today
(and it wasn't cold out here).

Stop at some slow lights or some stop start traffic and it does start
to come up but I can't say even then that I've seen it much above 80?

Do you still think it could be the sender (I'm guessing it shouldn't
be to expensive or difficult to change to find out)?

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

much more likely the thermostat. to check the temp sender just leave it
running for half an hour and see what the gauge shows when the fan cuts in
and out, should be around 100 degrees. If so then the sender is ok and it
needs a new thermostat, good idea to do that asap.

[Chris Whelan]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:15:52 +0000, T i m wrote:

[...]

>
> In case it changes anything ... it's actually reading under 70 deg C
> under normal driving conditions over a 30 min / ~50 mph journey today
> (and it wasn't cold out here).
>
> Stop at some slow lights or some stop start traffic and it does start to
> come up but I can't say even then that I've seen it much above 80?
>
> Do you still think it could be the sender (I'm guessing it shouldn't be
> to expensive or difficult to change to find out)?
>
> Cheers, T i m

Neither the gauge or sender are accurately calibrated units. (See my
other post.) If it runs fine, has normal fuel consumption, and passes the
emissions part of the MOT, my money is on their being nothing wrong.

[T i m]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 06:27:25 +0000 (GMT), "rp"
<r.p...@infohit.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:36:45 +0000, T i m wrote:
>
>>When driving about normall the temperature gauge seems to sit off the
>>bottom of the scale (so less than 80degC if it's reading true). It
>>does move up when idling in traffic etc but I would have thought the
>>thermostat would have held it a bit warmer than that? (Heater seems to
>>work ok).
>
>Does it move up much when idling in traffic?

Yes ish. ie, from what I've noticed so far (and I only really
'noticed' it because it didn't seem to be getting hot on the gauge
rather than a more worrying overheating etc) but I don't think I've
seen it much above 80 (which is about central on that particular
gauge).

> Sounds as though it might
>be the thermostat on it's way out.

That would be more my thought but I have had senders that went non
linear (not that I think they are resistively etc).

> I don't remember seeing the
>temperature rise when idling in a modern car but it's been a long while
>since I did any decent runs.

Ok and thanks.

Whilst not modern cars either I think the old Rover 218SD and her
Belmont have what I would call 'normal' temperature gauges in that
they rise into what you might call 'hot' once you have been running
for a while and generally stay there then get higher if you are going
up a long hill in the summer or sat in traffic , till the electric
fans cut in.

Any idea how difficult a stat is on one of them (1.6 8V 04) is to
change (it's round Mums again now).

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:49:51 GMT, Chris Whelan
<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

<snip>

>the so-
>called gauge just shows "below temperature", "above temperature", and
>"within acceptable limits".

So are you saying that this Meriva may be fitted with that sort of
'gauge'?
>
<snip>

>
>Some cars already omit a gauge, relying on a warning light system
>instead.

I think daughters Ka had that.

>I see this as becoming the norm in future; not many drivers of
>the last 20 years or so would ever bother to keep a sufficient check on
>engine temperature anyway!

Some of them don't take (much) notice of the oil pressure light either
... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

it is listed as a two hour job, so it is probably behind the cam belt

[T i m]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:49:23 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>>> Sounds as though it might
>>> be the thermostat on it's way out.
>>

>> Any idea how difficult a stat is on one of them (1.6 8V 04) is to
>> change (it's round Mums again now).
>>
>

>it is listed as a two hour job, so it is probably behind the cam belt

Poop.

So, do some more tests first but if it needs doing should I do
anything else at the same time on a 45K miles engine do you think
please (belt / idler pulleys / water pump etc)?

I did the pump on the Mrs 1.4 8V engine in the Belmont a long while
back that I think may be a similar design and it went ok (all be it
'awkward' with the engine being in sideways (and driving the wrong
wheels)). ;-)


Cheers, T i m

[Rob]

A thermostat will do similar things.

Hard to tell which it is unless you look. Does it have a thermostat, has
it been removed? thermostats come in temperature ratings and your car it
could be 82 degree and should hold that at idle.

The sender units only measure a small temperature range. I usually
check the gauge with a meter at specific values in the range. then
change the sender if there is variation.

Either not difficult to change and reasonably priced parts.

Just to throw up another problem is a blocked radiator. Is it clear
coolant, any scale, sludge,

[Mrcheerful]

It may be possible to get the thermostat out from behind the belt, but if
you are in there............

cam belt change is listed as every 8 years or 80k and pump, belt and
tensioner would be a good idea

[T i m]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:41:10 +1100, Rob <mesa...@gmail.com> wrote:


>> Do you still think it could be the sender (I'm guessing it shouldn't
>> be to expensive or difficult to change to find out)?
>>
>

>A thermostat will do similar things.

Ok.

>
>Hard to tell which it is unless you look. Does it have a thermostat, has
>it been removed?

The car was originally serviced at the main dealers (PNG I believe)
and then with a local garage (and good mate). I don't think he's ever
had any engine work done (that I'm aware of anyway) but did keep the
servicing up to date.

> thermostats come in temperature ratings and your car it
>could be 82 degree and should hold that at idle.

That's what I understood ... that the 'point' of the stat was to get
the engine up to, then ideally hold at that temperature (for maximum
efficiency). Once at the opening temp it's down to the efficiency of
the rad / cooling system to keep it down to that temp and failing
sufficient airflow for the electric fan(s) to kick in.

I thought under temperature was only caused by a stuck (open, fully or
partially) thermostat?

>
>The sender units only measure a small temperature range. I usually
>check the gauge with a meter at specific values in the range. then
>change the sender if there is variation.

Ok.

>
>Either not difficult to change and reasonably priced parts.

Cheers. Having said that I remember then being very cheap when I was
doing my Moggy Minor van. They were a bit more expensive the last time
I changed one on the (Mk2 Escort based) kitcar (and that is hardly a
high spec / complex motor). ;-)

>
>Just to throw up another problem is a blocked radiator. Is it clear
>coolant, any scale, sludge,

Hmm, well, Mum said Dad used to drive at typically 50 mph on the
motorways and he was always 'casual' when on all the other roads, if
that could have any bearing. Since I've been running it about I've
been driving it <cough> [1] nearer the speed limits and it seems to
actually 'go' ok?

When I get it again I'll give it a closer look and take some
measurements etc.

Would anyone know if it has a 'simple' ODB interface as I have one of
the USB / PC eBay jobbies and so could hook that up if it would give
us anything of interest (it worked in the 2001 Corsa).

Cheers, T i m

[1] I was pleased to see the speedo was pretty well spot on according
to my GPS today. ;-)

[T i m]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:49:19 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>
>It may be possible to get the thermostat out from behind the belt, but if
>you are in there............

Quite.

>cam belt change is listed as every 8 years or 80k and pump, belt and
>tensioner would be a good idea

Thanks very much for the info.

So, I'm right in thinking that if I was 'in there' doing the stat even
at 45K miles it might be as well to do all those even now? None of the
bits being 'silly money' etc?

Apart from belt changes on the Belmont and Rover when I got them the
one before that was the 2L Sierra (after it snapped about 2 miles from
home and I had fitted a new one and was back home in under and hour
and for ~ 12 quid.) ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

It would be worth doing the whole lot while you are there, the genuine bits
are not spiteful and the only really hard bit can be getting the pump out
(which if it is stuck, take the hose off the back of the pump and it is
possible to get a drift in and whack the impellor to drive the pump out)
Get the genuine antifreeze too.

2l pinto belts usually went because the oil was not changed often enough
(oil pump gets incredibly hard to turn). which is why they usually went
first thing in the morning. and the only special tool needed was a spline
bit, but mole grips could do !! The worst bit was when they changed the
front pulley for air con, you then needed a special puller.

[Adrian C]

On 19/03/2012 19:11, T i m wrote:

> Wouldn't be a major loss as long as it didn't screw up the whole
> module for just changing the radio (which actually sounds / works ok
> but I wouldn't imagine has an 'Aux' input for an external player of
> some sort (so just have to use a cassette adaptor)).

Some have CD changer inputs that may be hackable for AUX-in, but some at
expense that it may be more convenient to just change the radio.

So swap it if you can. I'd recommend a unit with a USB memory stick
interface or one that plays MP3 CDs.

Fooling around with an externally connected media player while driving
is not really a safe activity, swapping CD's is bad enough...

--
Adrian C

[Adrian C]

On 19/03/2012 19:44, T i m wrote:
>
>> I see this as becoming the norm in future; not many drivers of
>> the last 20 years or so would ever bother to keep a sufficient check on
>> engine temperature anyway!
>
> Some of them don't take (much) notice of the oil pressure light either
> ... ;-(

On an old C-reg golf I had, the oil pressure warning was a buzzer on the
rear of the dashboard console.

Had a dual purpose as a G-Force indicator as I accelerated out of the
cloud of smoke - that from the oil burning on the outside of the
sump.... ;-)

--
Adrian C

[T i m]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:02:34 +0000, Adrian C <em...@here.invalid>
wrote:

>On 19/03/2012 19:11, T i m wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't be a major loss as long as it didn't screw up the whole
>> module for just changing the radio (which actually sounds / works ok
>> but I wouldn't imagine has an 'Aux' input for an external player of
>> some sort (so just have to use a cassette adaptor)).
>
>Some have CD changer inputs that may be hackable for AUX-in, but some at
>expense that it may be more convenient to just change the radio.

OK ta. Luckily we have a friend at Kenwood and can sometimes get Ex
demo units a bit cheaper.

>
>So swap it if you can. I'd recommend a unit with a USB memory stick
>interface or one that plays MP3 CDs.

That's what we got for daughters Corsa. I was wondering if DAB is the
way to go nowdays as I probably listen to more radio than my own
music. [1]

>
>Fooling around with an externally connected media player while driving
>is not really a safe activity, swapping CD's is bad enough...

Quite.

Cheers, T i m

[1] That said I can't remember the last time I put the fascia back on
the radio in the Rover ... I just don't seem to bother ...

[T i m]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:33:27 +0000, Adrian C <em...@here.invalid>
wrote:

Hehe. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:17:47 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


When for a run up to MK yesterday and round and about and rarely saw
the temperature gauge reach the 80 mark. Bowling up and down the M1 at
~70mph it was generally below the actual first mark on the gauge.
Ticking over at the lights or in stop -start traffic saw it get nearer
the 80 deg point. The cabin heater output feels reasonably 'hot'
though?

> to check the temp sender just leave it
>running for half an hour and see what the gauge shows when the fan cuts in
>and out, should be around 100 degrees. If so then the sender is ok and it
>needs a new thermostat, good idea to do that asap.

I just tried that (I did a short trip so the engine was already 'warm'
then let it tickover outside the house and it seems like the fan is
cutting in at an indicated 90 DegC (but it's difficult to tell as the
fan is pretty quiet and I can't be in both places at once). For sure
I've never seen the gauge indicate more than about 92 DegC.

So, is that sufficiently short of the 100 to suggest it's the
temperature sensor as it might be unlikely for the thermostat to have
gone wrong *and* the fan temperature sensor switch (depending on where
the fan get's it's input from etc)?

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

It sounds as though the gauge is reading lower than the actual temp.

you can test the sender with a multimeter and a thermometer plus some warm
water.
at 20degrees c it should read 2200 ohms
and at 80 degrees it should read 350 ohms.

[T i m]

Thanks, very handy.

Are they the values for this particular vehicle / engine or are they
pretty common across all?

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

that is the data for your exact vehicle from autodata

[T i m]

>that is the data for your exact vehicle from autodata

Brilliant, thanks.

Now to find the sender .... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:12:58 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>>> you can test the sender with a multimeter and a thermometer plus
>>> some warm water.
>>> at 20degrees c it should read 2200 ohms
>>> and at 80 degrees it should read 350 ohms.

Old one:
20 DegC = 2560 Ohms
80 DegC = 360 Ohms

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5772409/04%20Meriva%208V%20temperature%20sender.png

New one (OOI)
20 DegC = 2300 Ohms
80 DegC = 330 Ohms

On a 10 mile trip home tonight at ~60 mph the temperature gauge stayed
below 70 DegC.

I'm going to tape an external temperature probe on the top hose
tomorrow and see what that shows on a short trip.

Would I be right in thinking any instant / gradual rise in temperature
would indicate a stuck open stat (not just the bleed)?

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

the temp gauge should come up to midway within about a mile of a cold start.
if you start the car from cold and grope the top hose it should stay
practically cold until a sudden rush of hot as it opens for the first time.
many thermostats no longer have a bleed hole in them. the engine designers
usually incorporate a high up bleed/return tube to the header tank. this
was not really an option when you only had a radiator.

[T i m]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:20:32 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:12:58 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
>> <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>> you can test the sender with a multimeter and a thermometer plus
>>>>> some warm water.
>>>>> at 20degrees c it should read 2200 ohms
>>>>> and at 80 degrees it should read 350 ohms.
>>
>> Old one:
>> 20 DegC = 2560 Ohms
>> 80 DegC = 360 Ohms
>>
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5772409/04%20Meriva%208V%20temperature%20sender.png
>>
>> New one (OOI)
>> 20 DegC = 2300 Ohms
>> 80 DegC = 330 Ohms
>>
>> On a 10 mile trip home tonight at ~60 mph the temperature gauge stayed
>> below 70 DegC.
>>
>> I'm going to tape an external temperature probe on the top hose
>> tomorrow and see what that shows on a short trip.
>>
>> Would I be right in thinking any instant / gradual rise in temperature
>> would indicate a stuck open stat (not just the bleed)?
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>
>the temp gauge should come up to midway within about a mile of a cold start.

Ok, well that it certainly does not.

>if you start the car from cold and grope the top hose it should stay
>practically cold until a sudden rush of hot as it opens for the first time.

Understood. I'll do that but with the external temp gauge thingy. ;-)

>many thermostats no longer have a bleed hole in them.

Ah, ta.

> the engine designers
>usually incorporate a high up bleed/return tube to the header tank.

Is that the one that seems to constantly circulate some coolant?

> this
>was not really an option when you only had a radiator.

Understood.

I was actually thinking back to the days when I would have sat looking
into the top of the rad at the water just idly drifting about, then
seeing it start to flow across the top of the rad as the stat opened.
In fact, I can still do that on the MkII Escort based kitcar. ;-)

Thanks very much again.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I've asked my mate in the garage up the road to give me (well
Mum) a price for doing the lot (belt, pump, stat etc). Looking in
there reminds me of the gynaecologist who wallpapered his hallway
through the letterbox ... ;-)

[Mrcheerful]

that is an easy vehicle compared to some :)

[T i m]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:02:36 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>> p.s. I've asked my mate in the garage up the road to give me (well
>> Mum) a price for doing the lot (belt, pump, stat etc). Looking in
>> there reminds me of the gynaecologist who wallpapered his hallway
>> through the letterbox ... ;-)
>
>that is an easy vehicle compared to some :)
>

I'm sure it is but I bet it isn't as easy as the Pinto lump. ;-)

How would it be compared to doing the same on the 1.4i Vauxhall (I did
her Belmont water pump, stat and belt a while back) or the belt on the
old Rover / Pug 1.9 diesel?

We did pop out in the Meriva today but only to pick up a concrete post
and some cement. I'm not sure what would do my back the most, the post
or playing with engines stuck in sideways. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

it is no different to the belmont (assuming you have the single cam engine?)
It just looks worse. easier than the peugeot/rover lump.

[T i m]

Yup.

>It just looks worse.

Working though that hatch rather than a big bonnet etc?

>easier than the peugeot/rover lump.

Oh, ok.

Cheers and thanks again.

T i m
>

[T i m]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:20:32 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>> Would I be right in thinking any instant / gradual rise in temperature
>> would indicate a stuck open stat (not just the bleed)?

>

>the temp gauge should come up to midway within about a mile of a cold start.

Ok, I've been monitoring it over a few days / trips and it seems
consistent at least. If you are moving at any reasonable speed the
needle doesn't even enter the gauge (so sub 70 DegC indicated).

I've put the old temp sensor in a cup of as near to boiling water as I
can get, alongside a decent thermometer and the car gauge may read
about -5 of that. So, when thermometer reads 90, gauge reads ~85.

>if you start the car from cold and grope the top hose it should stay
>practically cold until a sudden rush of hot as it opens for the first time.

Right, I managed to get a chance to do that this morning from properly
cold.

Quickly after start (maybe 60 seconds) the small recirc hose that goes
into the header was starting to run warm. A few mins later (maybe 5?)
the thermostat housing / output stub (where it enters the top hose)
started to hot to the touch (but you could easily keep your fingers on
it) and then started to flow though the top hose / rad. The car gauge
was still showing sub 70 DegC. We then had to go somewhere and as we
pulled away it was holding at an indicated 80 but soon dropped to near
70 once we got in clear air.

So, could we be looking at a 'lazy stat'. One that is functioning but
just opening a bit prematurely?

I need to calibrate my external thermometer I've currently got taped
round the car and with the sensor on the recirc hose (rad a max of 60
Deg in traffic earlier) and I'll try to attach it to the thermostat
housing / top hose as best I can (so I can just drive away and still
monitor it).

Sitting in traffic earlier I put the heater and fan on full and saw it
bring the temperature from under 90 (where the electric fan cuts in)
to about 75.

I picked up the owners manual from Mum on my way back and for the
Z16SE lump it says '8 years or 80K miles' for the cambelt / tensioner
(currently on 45k). Given this it's just 8 years old and I can't see
any sign of it being done in the service records then maybe it
wouldn't be a bad idea in any case?

Whilst looking at the engine this morning it seems there is a blanking
plate where an EGR valve might be (on top of the inlet manifold?). ;-)

OOI, may I ask what Autodata says for the temp for the stat on those
please (04 Meriva 1.6).

Cheers and thanks again for your time.

T i m

[Chris Whelan]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:36:22 +0100, T i m wrote:

[...]

> OOI, may I ask what Autodata says for the temp for the stat on those
> please (04 Meriva 1.6).

'Thermostat opens 92C'

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[T i m]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:17:45 GMT, Chris Whelan
<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:36:22 +0100, T i m wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> OOI, may I ask what Autodata says for the temp for the stat on those
>> please (04 Meriva 1.6).
>
>'Thermostat opens 92C'

Thanks very much Chris.

So I wonder if that actually means 'opens' or 'is fully open' at 92
(assuming it's not a digital action).

I've just been out there again with a decent thermometer stuck on the
outside of the thermostat housing outlet where it joins the top hose
(wedged in with some foam wrapped in silver foil) and it was reading
about 85 DegC when the fan kicked in.

However, I'm pretty sure it was much less when the water started to
flow round the rad. I'll keep and eye on the rate of change of temp
via the external probe when I go out again later (display stuck on
dash) .

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:06:35 +0100, T i m wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:17:45 GMT, Chris Whelan
> <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:36:22 +0100, T i m wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> OOI, may I ask what Autodata says for the temp for the stat on those
>>> please (04 Meriva 1.6).
>>
>>'Thermostat opens 92C'
>
> Thanks very much Chris.
>
> So I wonder if that actually means 'opens' or 'is fully open' at 92
> (assuming it's not a digital action).

Generally, it means 'starts to open'.

> I've just been out there again with a decent thermometer stuck on the
> outside of the thermostat housing outlet where it joins the top hose
> (wedged in with some foam wrapped in silver foil) and it was reading
> about 85 DegC when the fan kicked in.
>
> However, I'm pretty sure it was much less when the water started to flow
> round the rad. I'll keep and eye on the rate of change of temp via the
> external probe when I go out again later (display stuck on dash) .
>
> Cheers, T i m

I'm sure you have your reasons, but a new thermostat and seal is £7.86;
is it really worth the effort you are putting in to this?

[T i m]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:49:10 GMT, Chris Whelan

<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:06:35 +0100, T i m wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:17:45 GMT, Chris Whelan
>> <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:36:22 +0100, T i m wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>> OOI, may I ask what Autodata says for the temp for the stat on those
>>>> please (04 Meriva 1.6).
>>>
>>>'Thermostat opens 92C'
>>
>> Thanks very much Chris.
>>
>> So I wonder if that actually means 'opens' or 'is fully open' at 92
>> (assuming it's not a digital action).
>
>Generally, it means 'starts to open'.

Ok, thanks.

>
>> I've just been out there again with a decent thermometer stuck on the
>> outside of the thermostat housing outlet where it joins the top hose
>> (wedged in with some foam wrapped in silver foil) and it was reading
>> about 85 DegC when the fan kicked in.
>>
>> However, I'm pretty sure it was much less when the water started to flow
>> round the rad. I'll keep and eye on the rate of change of temp via the
>> external probe when I go out again later (display stuck on dash) .
>>
>

>I'm sure you have your reasons,

(I do ..) ;-)

>but a new thermostat and seal is £7.86;
>is it really worth the effort you are putting in to this?

Well, if it were only a stat and seal then, no, of course not. However
the other bits, like cambelt, tensioner, water pump and the time for
the guy to do it (most has to come off apparently to do the job, all a
bit beyond me as a side_of_the_road job) are around £250.

Now, to add more 'value' to that the owners handbook states '80K miles
or 8yrs on the belt and tensioner' and as it's an 04 (even with only
45K on the clock) that's potentially one of the criteria met ... and
as Mums offered to pay for it (as it's actually still her car till
next month) it may not be quite the 'is it worth it, what if it makes
no difference' sorta situation.

Had it been the Kent powered kitcar or anything else where it was both
easy and 'just' a gasket and stat, for sure it would have been done
by now. ;-)

Until looking in the owners guide (only picked it up today) I had no
facts re the cambelt so that 8 years thing sorta clinches it (even if
'age' doesn't often factor highly in cambelt failures?).

I generally (also) like to a) determine *exactly* what's going on and
b) like to be pretty sure I'm doing stuff (both because of the time
and the money) for good reason. The car is actually running ok (I'm
about to take the first full to full fuel / miles measurement so may
be able to qualify that further) but as it's potential new owner (Dad
had it from new) I don't yet have any feeling about what is right or
typical or not. Do I simply accept the 'nah, it's ok, all Vauxhalls
are like that' and just ignore it or try to make some logical sense of
it all? Had it not been 'Dads car' and / or hope to keep it for a good
while then maybe I'd not bother.

Assuming the temperature gauge is relevant and accurate, then my
first, immediate and off_the_cuff conclusion was 'thermostat stuck
open'. Learning what was involved and therefore the cost made me be a
bit more cautious.

Given the money and time I'd have several temperature probes all over
the cooling system and a datalogger capturing timed data! ;-) [1]

'You can manage what you can measure. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] I have an eBay type OBD code reader with USB interface and a
netbook. Would that show me anything?

[T i m]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:17:55 +0100, T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:


>I generally (also) like to a) determine *exactly* what's going on and
>b) like to be pretty sure I'm doing stuff (both because of the time
>and the money) for good reason. The car is actually running ok (I'm
>about to take the first full to full fuel / miles measurement so may
>be able to qualify that further)

Just down on the red. Reasonable mix of motorway (~65 mph) and local
running around. I've also been trying to take it gently.

41.70l (£60.00) brimmed.
284.9 miles on trip.

71.7 x .22 = 9.2G

284 / 9.2 ~= 31 mpg? ;-(

Big shock after the old 218SD Rover (around 47 mpg) and more
reminiscent of the 2L GL Sierra Estate!

So, I wonder if that's not as good as it could (should?) be because
it's might be running too cool (on a run especially)?

Cheers, T i m

[Duncan Wood]

Sounds about right for a Meriva.

[T i m]

>Sounds about right for a Meriva.

Oh dear (but thanks).

Going from the 2L petrol Sierra to the 1.9 diesel Rover was a bit of a
revaluation in many ways (I'd never had a diesel before being one) but
the biggest by far was (at the time) seeing I was getting often nearly
*double* the miles for my 20 quids worth.

Now, given the Rover cost me 100 quid it wasn't long before it had
paid for itself (over the Sierra) and was also doing about 10 mpg
better than the 1.4 Belmont.

I'm not sure therefore if this Meriva even 'free' is a good long term
/ retirement investment for us. It's going to cost us an extra 100
quid to insure (over the Rover) and not a reduced TAX (emissions?) as
it's over 1500cc.

But what else? Am I going to find a clean Rover 218SD or something
using that 1.9 Pug lump (assuming it would be equally economical in
another similarly sized vehicle) that is as useable and reliable as
the running gear on that old Honda / Rover?

Whilst we don't do loads of miles we do enough (or would like to be
able to afford to do what we wanted / needed) and need to move / tow
stuff (1.2 tonne box trailer, folding caravan, motorcycle trailer
etc).

Ho hum.

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

a transverse engined VW Passat diesel estate is very reliable, very
economical and roomy. Not too bad for maintenance and parts availability.
I have a customer with one that has 300,000 on the clock and it still drives
well, the engine has never been apart. He reckons he always gets over 60mpg
(confirmed by the computer) out of it and claims 80mpg on long runs (which I
find plausible), he also runs it on part cooking oil a lot of the time in
warmer weather.

[T i m]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:03:31 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>> But what else? Am I going to find a clean Rover 218SD or something
>> using that 1.9 Pug lump (assuming it would be equally economical in
>> another similarly sized vehicle) that is as useable and reliable as
>> the running gear on that old Honda / Rover?
>>
>> Whilst we don't do loads of miles we do enough (or would like to be
>> able to afford to do what we wanted / needed) and need to move / tow
>> stuff (1.2 tonne box trailer, folding caravan, motorcycle trailer
>> etc).

>a transverse engined VW Passat diesel estate is very reliable, very
>economical and roomy. Not too bad for maintenance and parts availability.
>I have a customer with one that has 300,000 on the clock and it still drives
>well, the engine has never been apart. He reckons he always gets over 60mpg
>(confirmed by the computer) out of it and claims 80mpg on long runs (which I
>find plausible), he also runs it on part cooking oil a lot of the time in
>warmer weather.

Looks like a good candidate (thanks). ;-)

What sort of year did they do that particular spec from so I can have
a look about the net please (ie, what model / years has that
particular engine).

I was also considering (again) the Fusion 1.4 diesel (the one with
similar mpg and low TAX) but it looks like we might keep the Meriva
for the moment, at least for Mums sake (it might seem a bit cold to
sell it straight after she has given it to us etc).

So at least that gives us the chance to have a look about and
something that would be sellable to put toward it when the time comes.

Just need to get the kitcar though the MOT next week decide what to do
with the Belmont while she's not driving (she's having another total
knee replacement soon and so won't be driving for a whiile).

Cheers, T i m

[Mrcheerful]

that particular one is a 96, they changed the model shortly after by turning
the engine 90 degrees and altering the suspension a lot, really a different
car in a similar bodyshell, the newer models are less economical and not so
pleasant to drive, also they have the dreaded DMF flywheel.

Fusions suffer from the injector seal fault (300 quid). Otherwise they seem
OK as a small car, some things are just plain stupid, just count how many
bolts you have to undo to change the air filter (which is very small) from
memory it is 16 torx screws. The pollen filter is a literal pain to change
too. Rear ABS wiring snaps off in the middle (I repair them, the correct
thing is to change the whole lot (200 quid)
The emissions on a Fusion make it a higher tax bracket than the equal
fiesta. They are fairly economical (about 55) They tow small stuff OK too.
They are a little higher than some cars, but access through the door is not
good . The drivers arm rest in the middle breaks too.

[T i m]

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 08:32:11 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>>> a transverse engined VW Passat diesel estate is very reliable, very
>>> economical and roomy. Not too bad for maintenance and parts
>>> availability. I have a customer with one that has 300,000 on the
>>> clock and it still drives well, the engine has never been apart. He
>>> reckons he always gets over 60mpg (confirmed by the computer) out of
>>> it and claims 80mpg on long runs (which I find plausible), he also
>>> runs it on part cooking oil a lot of the time in warmer weather.
>>
>> Looks like a good candidate (thanks). ;-)
>>
>> What sort of year did they do that particular spec from so I can have
>> a look about the net please (ie, what model / years has that
>> particular engine).
>>
>> I was also considering (again) the Fusion 1.4 diesel (the one with
>> similar mpg and low TAX) but it looks like we might keep the Meriva
>> for the moment, at least for Mums sake (it might seem a bit cold to
>> sell it straight after she has given it to us etc).
>>

>that particular one is a 96, they changed the model shortly after by turning
>the engine 90 degrees and altering the suspension a lot, really a different
>car in a similar bodyshell,

Sounds like it would be.

> the newer models are less economical and not so
>pleasant to drive,

Ok, thanks.

> also they have the dreaded DMF flywheel.

Not come across one of them in the flesh yet. ;-(

>
>Fusions suffer from the injector seal fault (300 quid).

In case I've got it wrong ... is there a Fiesta based 1.4 estate?

> Otherwise they seem
>OK as a small car, some things are just plain stupid, just count how many
>bolts you have to undo to change the air filter (which is very small) from
>memory it is 16 torx screws.

Great. I wonder how the designers got to that from none (don't some
cars air filters covers just 'clip' on / off?) to 16!?

> The pollen filter is a literal pain to change
>too.

I've seen my mate with the wiper linkages off and part of the front
windscreen trim out just to get to those things (not the Fusion
particularly).

>Rear ABS wiring snaps off in the middle (I repair them, the correct
>thing is to change the whole lot (200 quid)

Too tight in there? Too much movement (without sufficient 'slack')?

>The emissions on a Fusion make it a higher tax bracket than the equal
>fiesta. They are fairly economical (about 55) They tow small stuff OK too.

Hmm, I'll have to check what my mate has then. I think someone
mentioned it would be 'smaller than I was used to' (with the Rover)
when I mentioned it in passing a while back (the owner was doing a
fairly long commute in a van of some kind and constantly moaning about
the fuel costs. I talked of the Rover and 45+ mpg (he was getting more
like 25) and he went to this little diesel estate thing and was loads
better off (inc the £30 TAX).

>They are a little higher than some cars, but access through the door is not
>good .

It's funny that access thing. Outside getting in the odd van or truck
I'd not regularly been in an MPV or similar so not really considered
the difference between them and 'std cars'. The (Jeep style) kitcar is
quite high but until recently had bucket seats so wasn't 'easy' to get
in and out of (now fitted with Metro GT seats in the front and they
are much better). With the Meriva you do just more or less slide in
sideways and her Belmont or daughters Corsa do seem very low by
comparison. Personally, I don't care either way but might sway towards
the std car height for loading stuff on the roof and general handling.

>The drivers arm rest in the middle breaks too.

No mod for that?

I pissed myself off the other day after topping off the Meriva fuel
tank for the mileage check and in the hurry to get my notepad walked
straight through the open plastic filler cap cover with a loud 'bang'.
[1] AFAIK my 80 year old Dad never did that but with all his ailments
towards the end he was never 'rushing about' either. How come I never
did it with the Rover in 7 years ... ;-(

Oh well, something else to repair ...

Cheers, T i m

[1] She tripped over the pump island a while back and broke the petrol
flap off the Belmont. I glued it all up (rather than faffing about
with paint etc) and it's been fine ever since.