54 Punto gear linkage broken?

[T i m]

Hi all,

54 Punto (1.2 I think, daughters friends car), just lost gear control
whilst being driven last night (then towed in to my mates garage).

We had a quick look at it today and it looks like the linkage / cable
is broken or come undone at the gearstick end as the stick flops
backwards and forwards (but not sideways) quite freely but no movement
at the gearbox end.

We will get it on his lift next week (hopefully Monday) but I wondered
if anyone has experience of these jobbies to predict if it was
something easily repairable (something come undone etc).

I've seen cable pairs on eBay for ~£125 (~£300+ from Fiat) so
hopefully it's just that?

Cheers, T i m

[Dan S. MacAbre]

Are you sure that you need to get underneath? You might see the top end
of the cable by pulling away the gaiter from around the gear lever. I'm
just guessing here, but it would be a quicker thing to check.

[T i m]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 19:21:52 +0000, "Dan S. MacAbre" <n...@way.com>
wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> 54 Punto (1.2 I think, daughters friends car), just lost gear control
>> whilst being driven last night (then towed in to my mates garage).
>>
>> We had a quick look at it today and it looks like the linkage / cable
>> is broken or come undone at the gearstick end as the stick flops
>> backwards and forwards (but not sideways) quite freely but no movement
>> at the gearbox end.
>>
>> We will get it on his lift next week (hopefully Monday) but I wondered
>> if anyone has experience of these jobbies to predict if it was
>> something easily repairable (something come undone etc).
>>
>> I've seen cable pairs on eBay for ~£125 (~£300+ from Fiat) so
>> hopefully it's just that?
>>
>

>Are you sure that you need to get underneath?

Sure no, does it look likely, yes. ;-(

>You might see the top end
>of the cable by pulling away the gaiter from around the gear lever.

We did but you can't see a lot Dan. It's just the plastic inverted
pyramid that bounds the limits of the stick movement.

> I'm
>just guessing here, but it would be a quicker thing to check.

We, we sorta did but looking at the other end of the (two) cables
where they join the gearbox and with the gearstick doing full travel
fore-and-aft, the gearbox end(s) of the cable did nothing. ;-( [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Well, the gate cable might still be intact as the stick was pretty
solid side to side. Given that I understand it was stuck in reverse,
that would make sense?

[Dan S. MacAbre]

Well, I was just guessing, I'm afraid. Only last week, I had to attend
to the cables on my Fiesta, since the gearchange was getting very stiff.
Fortunately for me, the top ends of the cables can be exposed by
pulling the gaiter off. The bottom ends are under a clip-on cover by
the battery. Spraying everything with 3-in-1 freed it all up nicely,
but it sounds like one of yours has popped off.

[T i m]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 21:08:27 +0000, "Dan S. MacAbre" <n...@way.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> [1] Well, the gate cable might still be intact as the stick was pretty
>> solid side to side. Given that I understand it was stuck in reverse,
>> that would make sense?
>>
>
>Well, I was just guessing, I'm afraid.

No, thanks for the input. ;-)

>Only last week, I had to attend
>to the cables on my Fiesta, since the gearchange was getting very stiff.

I don't know that that wasn't the case with daughters friend,
especially as she is pretty new to the car herself (who many not have
'noticed that the gear selector mech was stiff or catchy in one plane,
if it was).

> Fortunately for me, the top ends of the cables can be exposed by
>pulling the gaiter off.

In this case the gearbox ends of the cables appear to be exposed in
any case and it looks like the inner cable is coated in a (self
lubricating) plastic of some sort.

>The bottom ends are under a clip-on cover by
>the battery.

From the diagrams I've seen on the net (the HBOL is locked in the boot
of the car and she only has one key (and the garage has the other
<doh>)) it looks like they are two independent push-pull type cables
and one has either worn and broken at the gearstick end (on the
floor), has come unclipped (if it wasn't getting stiff or notchy
previously) or something else had broken, like whatever the cable end
is attached to?

>Spraying everything with 3-in-1 freed it all up nicely,
>but it sounds like one of yours has popped off.

Popped off or broken, yes. I hope it's the former as she doesn't have
much cash and has just paid £2000+ for her insurance. ;-(

It seems it is a bit of a lottery re insurance groups with this 1.2 8V
Punto being a G7, same as our 1.6 8V Meriva and higher than daughters
16V 1.2 Corsa (G5).

Cheers, T i m

[MrCheerful]

I had one in with the same fault, just change the appropriate cable
(IIRC they came separately from Fiat BICBW) The cable had got corroded
and stiff at the gearbox end.

[T i m]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:58:17 +0000, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 11/11/2017 15:06, T i m wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> 54 Punto (1.2 I think, daughters friends car), just lost gear control
>> whilst being driven last night (then towed in to my mates garage).
>>
>> We had a quick look at it today and it looks like the linkage / cable
>> is broken or come undone at the gearstick end as the stick flops
>> backwards and forwards (but not sideways) quite freely but no movement
>> at the gearbox end.
>>
>> We will get it on his lift next week (hopefully Monday) but I wondered
>> if anyone has experience of these jobbies to predict if it was
>> something easily repairable (something come undone etc).
>>
>> I've seen cable pairs on eBay for ~£125 (~£300+ from Fiat) so
>> hopefully it's just that?
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>>
>
>I had one in with the same fault, just change the appropriate cable

Would you think that would be the right thing to do MrC, just changing
one cable? I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do if:

The owner was short of cash and the other cable was still fine.
The job was easy to do later if required.
The owner was short of cash and the job was difficult so best done now
whilst doing the other one.
The likelihood of the 'other' cable failing was 'highly unlikely'
(because they rarely go)?

>(IIRC they came separately from Fiat BICBW)

Ok.

>The cable had got corroded
>and stiff at the gearbox end.

Ok, that does seem to tie in then.

Can you remember how straightforward the job was ... eg, (once up in
the air), could you get to everything and it was just a matter of
re-threadling the new cable and clipping the ends in / on?

Cheers, T i m

[MrCheerful]

I do not remember the exact details, but it was not too complex (or it
would stick in the mind) If the cables are available separately and the
other one is fine, then just change the one, IIRC the way they come out
underneath makes one more susceptible to corrosion/dirt than the other one.

That particular job stuck in my mind because the owner reported the car
stolen while I had it !! She had forgotten that she had asked me to
collect it !! Happily I was not pulled up, her son worked out that it
might be worth ringing me about it, and all was well in the end.

[T i m]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:33:19 +0000, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> Can you remember how straightforward the job was ... eg, (once up in
>> the air), could you get to everything and it was just a matter of
>> re-threadling the new cable and clipping the ends in / on?
>>

>I do not remember the exact details, but it was not too complex (or it
>would stick in the mind) If the cables are available separately and the
>other one is fine, then just change the one, IIRC the way they come out
>underneath makes one more susceptible to corrosion/dirt than the other one.

Ok, thanks.

>
>That particular job stuck in my mind because the owner reported the car
>stolen while I had it !!

Ooops!

>She had forgotten that she had asked me to
>collect it !! Happily I was not pulled up, her son worked out that it
>might be worth ringing me about it, and all was well in the end.

Phew. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Graham T]

On 12/11/2017 18:33, MrCheerful wrote:

>
> That particular job stuck in my mind because the owner reported the car
> stolen while I had it !!  She had forgotten that she had asked me to
> collect it !!

A few years back I woke up and half asleep looked out of the window to
find my car gone.

I called the police and as I was waiting for them to turn up I realised
that my wife had recently passed her test and had probably taken it off.

She turned up half hour later telling me how she had started it up and
driven off to the shop all on her own. I called the police back and very
red faced explained what had happened.

[T i m]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:58:17 +0000, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>
>>

>> We will get it on his lift next week (hopefully Monday) but I wondered
>> if anyone has experience of these jobbies to predict if it was
>> something easily repairable (something come undone etc).
>

>I had one in with the same fault, just change the appropriate cable
>(IIRC they came separately from Fiat BICBW) The cable had got corroded
>and stiff at the gearbox end.

It looks like it was the main gear cable had broken off just where it
was swaged into the fitting at the end. A new cable has been ordered
locally (£75 all in) and hopefully it will be a straightforward (time
wise) replacement job.

The background concerns (for me anyway) still are:

1) Did a stiff(ening) gearbox cause the cable to fail or was it simply
fatigue after 13 years of use (there was no sign of corrosion etc).

2) Why was there no sideways movement on the stick, even when the
gearbox was in neutral (or maybe we missed it)?

I would imagine when the cable was under tension, everything would
work as it should, it might just be when it was under compression it
wouldn't hold a straight line. So, if 1st and rev were both in the
same general direction (forwards), and that meant the main cable was
under tension, then it may not have played a part?

The current driver (this was previously a family 'learner car' so may
have had it's fair share of abuse) said that she sometimes had
difficulty getting the gearbox into first and reverse, so I wondered
if that was a function of the failing cable (if it did fail over time,
not instantly) or syncromesh going on first (assuming it has it etc).

I say that because she tells me that if it didn't go straight into
first, releasing the clutch and depressing it again would often allow
her to select first ok.

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

T i m wrote:

[...]

> 1) Did a stiff(ening) gearbox cause the cable to fail or was it simply
> fatigue after 13 years of use (there was no sign of corrosion etc).

It's a 13 year old Fiat - anything could have rotted, broken, or fallen off!

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:58:24 +0000, Chris Whelan
<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> 1) Did a stiff(ening) gearbox cause the cable to fail or was it simply
>> fatigue after 13 years of use (there was no sign of corrosion etc).
>
>It's a 13 year old Fiat - anything could have rotted, broken, or fallen off!
>

Well, quite, <g> but the question was more of the likely 'why', in
this specific instance?

eg. The driver doesn't have much money to spend on stuff, especially
if there is a 'known chance' that replacing the broken cable is only
fixing a symptom rather than the cause. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

I would be fairly confident that it will last the life of the car.

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:24:42 +0000, Chris Whelan

<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:58:24 +0000, Chris Whelan
>> <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>T i m wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>> 1) Did a stiff(ening) gearbox cause the cable to fail or was it simply
>>>> fatigue after 13 years of use (there was no sign of corrosion etc).
>>>
>>>It's a 13 year old Fiat - anything could have rotted, broken, or fallen
>>>off!
>>>
>> Well, quite, <g> but the question was more of the likely 'why', in
>> this specific instance?
>>
>> eg. The driver doesn't have much money to spend on stuff, especially
>> if there is a 'known chance' that replacing the broken cable is only
>> fixing a symptom rather than the cause. ;-(
>
>I would be fairly confident that it will last the life of the car.

Hehe. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[MrCheerful]

Many cars are like that last bit.

[Peter Hill]

The synchro has pointed teeth that are supposed however they meet to
slide down the sides of the points to fully engage the teeth. If it's
been mashed a few times the points become blunt and then they meet worn
flat to worn flat. When the synchro teeth line up it should go in very
easy, when they don't then no amount of force will put it in gear. With
a cable that force will do damage. Better teach her to feel for it and
not push so hard. It's called mechanical sympathy.

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:25:21 +0000, Peter Hill
<peter...@skyshacknospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14-Nov-17 1:37 PM, T i m wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:58:17 +0000, MrCheerful
>> <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I say that because she tells me that if it didn't go straight into
>> first, releasing the clutch and depressing it again would often allow
>> her to select first ok.
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>
>The synchro has pointed teeth that are supposed however they meet to
>slide down the sides of the points to fully engage the teeth. If it's
>been mashed a few times the points become blunt and then they meet worn
>flat to worn flat. When the synchro teeth line up it should go in very
>easy, when they don't then no amount of force will put it in gear.

Understood.

> With
>a cable that force will do damage. Better teach her to feel for it and
>not push so hard. It's called mechanical sympathy.

I actually phoned her and had that very conversation this afternoon!
;-)

We have arranged for me to go out with her and assess said 'sympathy'
(or lack thereof), as soon as she gets the car back on the road. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 17:29:14 +0000, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>> I say that because she tells me that if it didn't go straight into
>> first, releasing the clutch and depressing it again would often allow
>> her to select first ok.
>>
>

>Many cars are like that last bit.

I have had a few cars (and motorbikes) that did that but don't
remember the last one that did so regularly.

Cheers, T i m

[Peter Hill]

A few pictures of synchro rings and the teeth that engage would no doubt
help.

[T i m]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:17:44 +0000, Peter Hill
<peter...@skyshacknospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>A few pictures of synchro rings and the teeth that engage would no doubt
>help.

I did point her towards Youtube (but not anything in particular other
than 'syncromesh') and from the sound of the WhatsApp messages she
sent afterwards, it seems she found something that helped. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Graham J]

The only motorbike I had (in 1968, Francis Barnett, 175cc, 2-stroke, 3
gears, already very old at the time) had a gearbox with dog clutches. I
think the gearbox was always spinning being connected directly to the
crankshaft, and the clutch was a multi-plate device running in oil set
between the gearbox and the chain drive to the wheel. So the gears
would always engage, with a clunk as the driven gear was instantly
brought up to speed.

It's a long while ago, and I can't find a reference that confirms my
recollection of the drive order.

I bought it for 7 pounds 10 shillings. (Beer was 2/6 per pint, 2-stroke
petrol about 6/6 per gallon.) It went like a sick pig intil I cleared
all the coke out of the exhaust pipe. The magneto was useless so I
converted it to battery driven coil ignition, just picking up the
connection to the points. Thereafter it always started first kick.

I used it until early 1971 when I bought an old 850cc mini van. I
forget what I did with it ...

--
Graham J

[Peter Hill]

Brit bikes had a layshaft gearbox, with main shaft running inside the
output shaft. The end of the main shaft furthest away from the clutch
had the layshaft drive gear on it. The output shaft was bushed to run on
the main shaft, it wasn't expected that you would be in lower gears for
any length of time. The main shaft had the chain driven clutch on the
outer end of it. Behind that there was a "seal" (often just a felt
washer and an oil flinger), then the final drive sprocket on end of
output shaft. Output shaft then entered the gear box though a 2nd seal,
it had 1st and 2nd gear on it, 2nd would slide on splines to mate with
dogs on the layshaft drive gear for top.

So the drive train was crank, chain to clutch, gearbox main shaft,
layshaft gear/direct top, output shaft, final drive sprocket.

[Graham J]

Peter Hill wrote:

[snip]

>
> Brit bikes had a layshaft gearbox, with main shaft running inside the
> output shaft. The end of the main shaft furthest away from the clutch
> had the layshaft drive gear on it. The output shaft was bushed to run on
> the main shaft, it wasn't expected that you would be in lower gears for
> any length of time. The main shaft had the chain driven clutch on the
> outer end of it. Behind that there was a "seal" (often just a felt
> washer and an oil flinger), then the final drive sprocket on end of
> output shaft. Output shaft then entered the gear box though a 2nd seal,
> it had 1st and 2nd gear on it, 2nd would slide on splines to mate with
> dogs on the layshaft drive gear for top.
>
> So the drive train was crank, chain to clutch, gearbox main shaft,
> layshaft gear/direct top, output shaft, final drive sprocket.

So the clunk was simply the rotational energy of the gearbox main shaft
being transferred to the output shaft. I suspect there was some clutch
drag as well ....

--
Graham J

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:06:29 +0000, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
wrote:

I (and quite a few BMW (and other)) bike riders also / still suffer
quite a 'clunk' when we engage first gear, especially when the engine
is cold.

On my old 'boxer' BM, the drive train is very much like a car ...
engine, dry clutch, gearbox, drive shaft, bevel-gear, rear wheel and
so there isn't (shouldn't be) as much clutch drag as with a typical
wet clutch?

On some bikes that first gear selection is so loud it sounds as if the
thing is going to break! ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

T i m wrote:

[...]

> On my old 'boxer' BM, the drive train is very much like a car ...
> engine, dry clutch, gearbox, drive shaft, bevel-gear, rear wheel and
> so there isn't (shouldn't be) as much clutch drag as with a typical
> wet clutch?

That actually makes gear changes worse as it has an engine speed clutch,
something Beemers of the generation were always criticized for.

[T i m]

But assuming the clutch is fully disengaged and you are going from
neutral to 1st, why would there be a clunk at all? <shrug>

Or maybe there is still some 'soft drive' going into the gearbox
though background clutch drag or the input shaft bearing?

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

I should have been clearer - it's gear *changes* that are crunchy with
engine speed clutches.

[MrCheerful]

Put it in gear before you start the engine.

[Dan S. MacAbre]

I've an old Triumph Daytona, and the noise going into first is just
awful. I had a very old Tiger Cub, and that was silent. But they were
basically the same WRT clutch/gearbox layout. Very odd.

[Chris Whelan]

Motorcycle gearboxes seem to survive, even with the abuse. My son has ridden
extensively on and off road, and at track days, and seldom uses the clutch
except for stopping/starting. It makes me cringe, but nothing has broken so
far.

I rallied a Mini Cooper 'S' in the 70's. It had a straight cut close ratio
box, with no synchro. I used it as my everyday car a fair bit as well. The
noise from the whining gears deafened me to the crunches!

It sounded much like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJ-HzNWJGM

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:40:41 +0000, Chris Whelan

Ah, ok.

In this case I'd have to say the additional gear changes (1-5 rather
than 0-1 etc) are ok (by comparison) and can often be done clutchless
with no issue.

Could just be my boxer but they often refer to the boxes as
'agricultural' and aren't typically as slick as on my Honda etc.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:18:02 +0000, Chris Whelan
<cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:

<snip>

>I rallied a Mini Cooper 'S' in the 70's. It had a straight cut close ratio
>box, with no synchro. I used it as my everyday car a fair bit as well. The
>noise from the whining gears deafened me to the crunches!
>
>It sounded much like this:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJ-HzNWJGM

Amazing ... but wouldn't like to be in there on a long trip up the
motorway! ;-)

Wasn't it 'Bullet' (straight cut) gearboxes that were found in many
sports / performance cars back in the day?

Cheers, T i m

[Dan S. MacAbre]

Yikes! What a racket. I prefer to be able to hear individual
detonations, myself :-) I like a bike that sounds like a barge.

[Chris Whelan]

T i m wrote:

[...]

> Amazing ... but wouldn't like to be in there on a long trip up the
> motorway! ;-)

As well as the noise, it had stiffer suspension, and all the British Leyland
rigid engine and gearbox mounts.

I once drove from Berkshire to Burnham-on Sea in an hour and a half. Pre
speed camera days, and as close to 100mph on the motorway as I could.

I parked and went in a bar, and because of the vibration couldn't pick up a
pint!

Nowadays, with a full roll cage, bucket seats, and a 5-point harness I would
struggle to get in and out of it.

[RJH]

On 15/11/2017 21:15, Chris Whelan wrote:
> T i m wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Amazing ... but wouldn't like to be in there on a long trip up the
>> motorway! ;-)
>

I did plenty of long trips in a Mini - good, bracing fun :-)

Biggest issue used to be water getting in. The floorpan seemed to act
like a scoop.

> As well as the noise, it had stiffer suspension, and all the British Leyland
> rigid engine and gearbox mounts.
>

I thought the rubber suspension was pretty standard? ISTR they could
supply stiffer rubber cups - to my mind that just meant solid :-)

Or was it a Hydrolastic? never had/drove one of those - apparently not
as bad as they sound.

> I once drove from Berkshire to Burnham-on Sea in an hour and a half. Pre
> speed camera days, and as close to 100mph on the motorway as I could.
>
> I parked and went in a bar, and because of the vibration couldn't pick up a
> pint!
>

Good grief! My road trial prepared 63 Cooper never seemed that bad.
Mind, I think the suspension was stock.

> Nowadays, with a full roll cage, bucket seats, and a 5-point harness I would
> struggle to get in and out of it.
>

:-)


--
Cheers, Rob

[T i m]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:31:31 +0000, T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>Popped off or broken, yes. I hope it's the former as she doesn't have
>much cash and has just paid £2000+ for her insurance. ;-(
>
Update (from Tuesday). ;-(

The main fore / aft gear change cable was broken (metal fatigue?)
right next to where the Bowden cable was crimped into the main 'end'.

The 'end' was actually longer than I imagined and I believe stayed in
the outer all the time (that made sense if it had to 'push' the
flexible bit) and there were no obvious signs of corrosion in this
case.

I drove the car back to her house after it had been repaired and it
felt it all smooth and easy, hopefully suggesting it was just the
cable (not a gearbox issue etc).

Thanks to all who offered thoughts and advice. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Whelan]

RJH wrote:

[...]

> I thought the rubber suspension was pretty standard? ISTR they could
> supply stiffer rubber cups - to my mind that just meant solid :-)
>
> Or was it a Hydrolastic? never had/drove one of those - apparently not
> as bad as they sound.

Originally the Mini had the rubber doughnuts. Shortly after the
Austin/Morris 1100 was introduced, they fitted the 1100's Hydrolastic
suspension to the Mini.

It never worked well in the Mini, giving a choppy ride; this was probably
due to the shorter wheelbase. 1100's were really comfortable for the size of
car, and actually very under-rated IMHO. Sadly, you could hear them rust,
and many were scrapped by five years old.

[MrCheerful]

We had loads of them in the car hire fleet, I had an MG1100 with twin
carbs, quite quick at the time. One of the best was an unfinished cut
and shut, red at one end, white at the other, even had different plates
front and back. Good car at the time, sad about the rot.
My favourite was the bigger version, the Wolseley 2200 land crab,
dangerously quick and loads of room inside, very comfortable.

[Chris Whelan]

MrCheerful wrote:

[...]

> We had loads of them in the car hire fleet, I had an MG1100 with twin
> carbs, quite quick at the time. One of the best was an unfinished cut
> and shut, red at one end, white at the other, even had different plates
> front and back. Good car at the time, sad about the rot.

I pulled a reconditioned engine from a rust-scrapped MG1100, stuck the
3.44:1 diff from a Mini Cooper 'S' into it, and dropped it in my (now ex)
wife's Mini Traveller. It made a car that struggled to 70mph into one that
was just about capable of 100mph. It took a lot of other drivers by
surprise...

[T i m]

On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:26:49 +0000, MrCheerful
<g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>My favourite was the bigger version, the Wolseley 2200 land crab,
>dangerously quick and loads of room inside, very comfortable.

Dad had an 1800 Marina coupe (TC?) for a while (week) and I remember
that being / feeling silly quick because it was so light. Well, it
felt quick compared with the A40 Countryman, Ford Corsair 2000 auto or
V Victor 1800 auto we may have normally had at the time anyway. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] After pestering some relative to give me a ride in his (genuine)
Lotus 7 I learned even only 50 mph when you are only 3" off the ground
and starting to brake well late, terrifying!