Nissan Micra K12 offside tail lamp and number plate lamp

[Peter Hill]

Niece presented my with her Micra this weekend. Said she kept getting
flashed at from behind and could I check the tyres. They were OK so
further questions were asked. MOT tester had let non working offside
tail lamp and number plate lamp slide with "you need an auto electrician".

Inspection shows no power to them. Some one has butchered the number
plate lamp connector. There is blue insulation tape on earth splice but
it's OK. The foam seal is missing from the tail lamp. Shorting the tail
lamp to the indicator on loom plug makes the number plate lamp flash so
wherever it's splice is to the cluster loom it's OK.

Offside, nearside and number plate all have different colour feed wires.

I'm sure I've seen others with same issue. So where does the offside
tail lamp wire break?

[Chris Whelan]

Obvious first question - have you checked the fuse?

A randomly-selected K12 on Autodata shows it as F35(10A) in the engine bay
fuse box.

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <nc607g$5r2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Peter Hill <peter...@skyshacknospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> MOT tester had let non working offside tail lamp and number plate lamp
> slide with "you need an auto electrician".

I hope you reported him. That doesn't come into the advisory section. And
it's obvious your niece continued to use the car at night in this
condition.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Peter Hill]

Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.

[Chris Whelan]

Peter Hill wrote:

[...]

> Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
> nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.

Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.

A blown fuse would otherwise leave a vehicle with no rear lights at all. The
same rule applies to headlights.

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

The Micra has a well known problem with wires breaking in the hatchback
(boot) lid. The wires are just that little bit too short.
Open boot and you will see a shielded wire loom on the right hand side Peel
or cut back the black tape and look for a broken wire. I've been there :-(
It's dead easy to fix.
As for the missing foam seal ------------- dunno.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <g3EFy.1634486$zf1.1...@fx38.am4>,

Chris Whelan <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
> Peter Hill wrote:

> [...]

> > Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
> > nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.

> Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.

Care to speculate when fusing of any sort first came in for lights?

> A blown fuse would otherwise leave a vehicle with no rear lights at all.
> The same rule applies to headlights.

Plenty other faults could result in no rear lights at all. It could mean
quite a bit of extra wiring etc to fuse them individually. Unless the car
is already wired for German style parking lights.

I'd be surprised if every cheap car like a Micra had individual fusing
everywhere.

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

[Chris Whelan]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


>> > Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
>> > nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.
>
>> Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.
>
> Care to speculate when fusing of any sort first came in for lights?

Not speculation, but many cars of the Sixties had two fuses; one for
ignition-switched circuits, the other for things that remained on. Lighting
generally was not fused.

The first time I came across fused lighting was on a mid-sixties Austin
1100. Following several fires, an in-line fuse was introduced for the
side/rear lights. It was hard to find, and initially not documented to
either the trade, or to owners. Much consternation was caused when it blew!

So the answer to your speculative question is mid-sixties.

>> A blown fuse would otherwise leave a vehicle with no rear lights at all.
>> The same rule applies to headlights.
>
> Plenty other faults could result in no rear lights at all. It could mean
> quite a bit of extra wiring etc to fuse them individually. Unless the car
> is already wired for German style parking lights.

Automotive lamps do not have a fuse built in to the base like their mains-
voltage cousins. Filament scatter on failure is therefore quite likely to
cause the circuit fuse to blow. A single fuse for both rear lights would be
a single point of failure that would be top of the list to eliminate from a
safety POV.

Multiplexing has been gradually introduced since the late Eighties, so in
that case there would be no extra wiring.

> I'd be surprised if every cheap car like a Micra had individual fusing
> everywhere.

So would I, but I would also be surprised to see anything made this century
that didn't have individual fuses for headlights, and for left/right
position lamps.

[Peter Hill]

On 15/03/2016 00:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <g3EFy.1634486$zf1.1...@fx38.am4>,
> Chris Whelan <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>> Peter Hill wrote:
>
>> [...]
>
>>> Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
>>> nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.
>
>> Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.

Found the wiring diagram. 12.12 digram 4.
https://www.micra.org.uk/attachments/4734-micra-wds-pdf.19391/
It's the first car I've seen like this. Didn't do it like this back in
1993. 200SX has one fuse for all side/tail/plate lamps.

I don't like these modern wiring diagrams, they are so clunky that they
can't show the WHOLE circuit but show a bulb and then have little
"flags" "H4" "J4" because the fuse and relay are another graphic. But
the lighting switch is missing and there isn't any sort of hint as to
where that would be in the manual. Seems relay feed comes from the "CPU"
so that puts the lighting switch in with the engine management system.
Then because it's a completely rubbish way of showing electrical
systems, diagram 2 "power distribution system has module 6 on it TWICE,
just for a common earth between relay section and CPU.

Why 2 fuses? There is only one switch and relay.

Where is this Intelligent power distribution module? Its got a load of
relays in it as well. Maybe it's the box to the LHS near bulkhead that I
thought was the ECU?

THIS ISN'T HOW MODULAR WIRING IS SUPPOSED TO BE. There's supposed to be
a module at the tail lamp, with one power feed and a can bus. Not a
massive bundle of wires from the control switches to a single CPU and
then a full 50Kg wiring loom hung off that.

> Care to speculate when fusing of any sort first came in for lights?
>
>> A blown fuse would otherwise leave a vehicle with no rear lights at all.
>> The same rule applies to headlights.
>
> Plenty other faults could result in no rear lights at all. It could mean
> quite a bit of extra wiring etc to fuse them individually. Unless the car
> is already wired for German style parking lights.
>
> I'd be surprised if every cheap car like a Micra had individual fusing
> everywhere.
>

Seems it's got 4 fuse boxes!

[MrCheerful]

We had something in the sixties that had an overload self resetting
cutout on the headlight circuit, much hilarity when the lights went out,
then returned a couple of minutes later, repeat etc.

As to the micra, the odd thing is that it lists rear lamps individually
on fuses and does not include front lamps, generally it is rh fr and
rear plus no. plate on one fuse , lh fr and rear on another.

[Chris Whelan]

MrCheerful wrote:

> On 15/03/2016 09:27, Chris Whelan wrote:

[...]

> We had something in the sixties that had an overload self resetting
> cutout on the headlight circuit, much hilarity when the lights went out,
> then returned a couple of minutes later, repeat etc.

My CA Bedford had a thermal over-current device in the lighting switch. When
it operated, it pulsed on/off about twice a second, meaning you had some
lighting more or less working.

> As to the micra, the odd thing is that it lists rear lamps individually
> on fuses and does not include front lamps, generally it is rh fr and
> rear plus no. plate on one fuse , lh fr and rear on another.

I noticed that; my guess is that it is actually split ns/os + no plate.

[Chris Whelan]

Peter Hill wrote:

> On 15/03/2016 00:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <g3EFy.1634486$zf1.1...@fx38.am4>,
>> Chris Whelan <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Hill wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>>> Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
>>>> nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.
>>
>>> Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.
>
> Found the wiring diagram. 12.12 digram 4.
> https://www.micra.org.uk/attachments/4734-micra-wds-pdf.19391/
> It's the first car I've seen like this. Didn't do it like this back in
> 1993. 200SX has one fuse for all side/tail/plate lamps.

...and where have the starting handles gone? ;-)

> I don't like these modern wiring diagrams, they are so clunky that they
> can't show the WHOLE circuit but show a bulb and then have little
> "flags" "H4" "J4" because the fuse and relay are another graphic. But
> the lighting switch is missing and there isn't any sort of hint as to
> where that would be in the manual. Seems relay feed comes from the "CPU"
> so that puts the lighting switch in with the engine management system.
> Then because it's a completely rubbish way of showing electrical
> systems, diagram 2 "power distribution system has module 6 on it TWICE,
> just for a common earth between relay section and CPU.

The wiring on modern cars are so complex, it needs to be broken down into
sections.

It's how the wiring diagrams for things like industrial machinery is done
also.

> Why 2 fuses? There is only one switch and relay.

As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it's because a single fuse would
be the biggest single point of failure.

> Seems it's got 4 fuse boxes!

I think I only saw three on Autodata.

BTW, was the fuse I mentioned blown?

[MrCheerful]

It might well have been something vauxhall or bedford, maybe a victor, I
was only small at the time, so I don't really remember the timing or the
vehicle, just that the lights went on and off by themselves. Back then
we had several CAs (first vehicle I drove, at the age of 6, a very vivid
memory !) Victors, vx 4/90s, Taunus 17ms, Jowett Javelin, Renault
Dauphine, Citroen light 15, Cresta pas, Humber super snipes, loads of
Hillmans, A60s, Minors, Imps, Minis, 1800s, 1300s, 1100s, Commas, J2s,
Zephyrs, Mk2 jags, loads of vehicles, my father ran a car hire business
and was not fussy about what went on hire, very successful too. I lent
him a car to get back home in once and was somewhat surprised to find
that he hired it out to someone for a few days, not actually my
intention at all.

[Peter Hill]

On 15/03/2016 10:57, Chris Whelan wrote:
> Peter Hill wrote:
>
>> On 15/03/2016 00:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article <g3EFy.1634486$zf1.1...@fx38.am4>,
>>> Chris Whelan <cawh...@prejudicentlworld.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Are the offside tail and number plate lamps on a separate fuse to the
>>>>> nearside? As nearside tail lamp works, as do the front side lamps.
>>>
>>>> Yep. As are all vehicles made since Adam was a lad.
>>
>> Found the wiring diagram. 12.12 digram 4.
>> https://www.micra.org.uk/attachments/4734-micra-wds-pdf.19391/
>> It's the first car I've seen like this. Didn't do it like this back in
>> 1993. 200SX has one fuse for all side/tail/plate lamps.
>

> ....and where have the starting handles gone? ;-)

>
>> I don't like these modern wiring diagrams, they are so clunky that they
>> can't show the WHOLE circuit but show a bulb and then have little
>> "flags" "H4" "J4" because the fuse and relay are another graphic. But
>> the lighting switch is missing and there isn't any sort of hint as to
>> where that would be in the manual. Seems relay feed comes from the "CPU"
>> so that puts the lighting switch in with the engine management system.
>> Then because it's a completely rubbish way of showing electrical
>> systems, diagram 2 "power distribution system has module 6 on it TWICE,
>> just for a common earth between relay section and CPU.
>
> The wiring on modern cars are so complex, it needs to be broken down into
> sections.
>
> It's how the wiring diagrams for things like industrial machinery is done
> also.
>
>> Why 2 fuses? There is only one switch and relay.
>
> As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it's because a single fuse would
> be the biggest single point of failure.
>
>> Seems it's got 4 fuse boxes!
>
> I think I only saw three on Autodata.
>
> BTW, was the fuse I mentioned blown?

Dunno. Seems likely given the wiring to the number plate lamp.

I live in Burton on Trent. The Niece lives in Hemel Hempstead and
presented the car at her sisters birthday in Calne Wiltshire. I'm not
going to drive 100 miles just to find out. I won't see it again for a
few months.

Just scotch locked a bit of wire from nearside to offside.

[Peter Hill]

On 15/03/2016 10:04, MrCheerful wrote:
> As to the micra, the odd thing is that it lists rear lamps individually
> on fuses and does not include front lamps, generally it is rh fr and
> rear plus no. plate on one fuse , lh fr and rear on another.

Front side lamps are on same fuses as the tail lamps, RH fuse 35, LH
fuse 36.

Low beam RH fuse 40, LH fuse 39. But both share one relay.

High beam LH fuse 34, RH fuse 33. Individual relays.

Now the cunning bit is the day time lights, they put a relay in the
common wire to the RH headlamp that switches from earth to a fused
power feed. Then the power flows though the RH dip and it's fuse to the
common dip beam relay, which is off, then back to the other fuse and LH
dip beam to earth. As both main beam relays are off and independent
there is no current though the main beam. So that's 3 fuses for 2 bulbs
in series.

[Peter Hill]

On 15/03/2016 10:57, Chris Whelan wrote:

> I think I only saw three on Autodata.

1 = 3 Fusible link holder Links A-E
2 = 4 Fuse box Links F-M, fuses 23-27
3 = 5 Fuse and relay box fuses 1-17 + Acc and blower relays
4 = 6 Intelligent power distribution module fuses 33-36, 38-40, 45-55

There are a number of fuse holders that are vacant, 21, 22, 28, 30, 31,
37, 40-44. But 18, 19, 20, 29, 30 are unaccounted for.

These new circuit diagrams are utterly useless as you have to look
though every page for everything that one fuse feeds.

35 10A Sidelights, interior illumination
36 10A Sidelights, interior illumination

Fuse 35 also feeds the lighting for audio, heater, hazard warning,
headlamp levelling, ash tray, ESP, headlamp wash and auto selector.

Fuse 36 also feeds the the light on door lock/unlock and heated seat
switches (don't think she's got heated seats).

I may not have found them all.

[Chris Whelan]

Peter Hill wrote:

> On 15/03/2016 10:57, Chris Whelan wrote:
>> I think I only saw three on Autodata.
>
> 1 = 3 Fusible link holder Links A-E
> 2 = 4 Fuse box Links F-M, fuses 23-27
> 3 = 5 Fuse and relay box fuses 1-17 + Acc and blower relays
> 4 = 6 Intelligent power distribution module fuses 33-36, 38-40, 45-55

OK. The fusible link box is not shown on Autodata, and does not contain what
the manufacturer would consider 'user-replaceable' components.

> There are a number of fuse holders that are vacant, 21, 22, 28, 30, 31,
> 37, 40-44. But 18, 19, 20, 29, 30 are unaccounted for.
>
> These new circuit diagrams are utterly useless as you have to look
> though every page for everything that one fuse feeds.
>
> 35 10A Sidelights, interior illumination
> 36 10A Sidelights, interior illumination
>
> Fuse 35 also feeds the lighting for audio, heater, hazard warning,
> headlamp levelling, ash tray, ESP, headlamp wash and auto selector.
>
> Fuse 36 also feeds the the light on door lock/unlock and heated seat
> switches (don't think she's got heated seats).

That clearly isn't possible; some of those circuits individually would have
a load greater than the 10A of F35/F36. I'm not sure haw you have arrived at
the conclusion you have; perhaps you have followed the wiring 'through'
multiplexing modules?

With the greatest of respect, I fear you are not reading the diagram you
linked to correctly. (Unsurprising if you are not familiar with the format.)

Look *only* at page 4. At the top of the page, F35 points to H4, F36 to J4.
At the bottom of the page, H4 and J4 connect to items 26 and 25
respectively. The key shows them to be the rear light clusters. A wire from
26 links to item 35, the number plate light.

By automotive standards, it's a pretty decent diagram.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ncb58i$1osp$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Peter Hill <peter...@skyshacknospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> These new circuit diagrams are utterly useless as you have to look
> though every page for everything that one fuse feeds.

Pretty well all car electrics schematics have become too complicated to
put in one page of any book for many a year. Even more so on the low grade
paper so often used.

Only real answer is to re-draw them using vectors, and have as a PDF, etc.
Which can be 'zoomed' in with no loss of detail.

--
*The modem is the message *

[Peter Hill]

Look at diagram 8 page 8 (12:22 of manual)

At top of page H8 and J8 are from the SAME fuses 35 and 36 and the tail
lamp relay makes a 2nd appearance.

It is perfectly possible as they are for the switch and dash
ILLUMINATION so the switches etc can be seen in the dark. 1 side lamp
5w, 1 tail lamp 5w, 1 plate lamp 5w, ?? switch lights 1.2-1.8w/LEDs,
about 20-25W, less than 2 amps.

As illumination for heater controls, radio and headlamp levelling switch
are on the suspect fuse 35, my Niece must think the car has now got a
Xmas tree on its dash! If she had told me that there were no lights on
the dash, I would have looked harder for a fuse.

This is a Girl with a Degree from UCL. I now suspect she has been
driving with the interior lamp on so she can see the heater and radio
controls. Or using the torch on the phone!

[Chris Whelan]

Peter Hill wrote:

[...]

> Look at diagram 8 page 8 (12:22 of manual)
>
> At top of page H8 and J8 are from the SAME fuses 35 and 36 and the tail
> lamp relay makes a 2nd appearance.

Yes, that would be perfectly normal for this type of diagram, both in
automotive and industrial use. I understand how confusing this must seem
when faced with it for the first time.

That's why I tried to persuade you to just look at the diagram for what you
are tying to fix; it simply isn't possible to take in the 'whole picture'
with that level of complexity.

> It is perfectly possible as they are for the switch and dash
> ILLUMINATION so the switches etc can be seen in the dark. 1 side lamp
> 5w, 1 tail lamp 5w, 1 plate lamp 5w, ?? switch lights 1.2-1.8w/LEDs,
> about 20-25W, less than 2 amps.

Yep.

> As illumination for heater controls, radio and headlamp levelling switch
> are on the suspect fuse 35, my Niece must think the car has now got a
> Xmas tree on its dash! If she had told me that there were no lights on
> the dash, I would have looked harder for a fuse.

So I'm assuming that the fuse has been replaced, and all is well?

> This is a Girl with a Degree from UCL. I now suspect she has been
> driving with the interior lamp on so she can see the heater and radio
> controls. Or using the torch on the phone!

Years ago, one morning my BIL had a non-starting car. He carefully renewed
the plugs, and HT leads, but it still wouldn't go. After spending much of
the day on it, he rang me in desperation. I popped round, and immediately
realised he had replaced the HT leads in a completely random order! He was
somewhat embarrassed when I just put them on in the correct firing order,
and it started straight away.

His degree is a First in Engineering...