Wheel cylinder replaced in pairs only?
JB
"Ted" <?@?.?> wrote in message
news:qdnqruscinc8nukmm...@4ax.com...
> Only one of my rear wheel cylinders is leaking. One place
> automatically quoted me for replacing 2 wheel cylinders (and shoes)
> saying you should replace them in pairs and gave me some explanation
> for this. Another place (kwik fit) never mentioned I should replace
> the other one also. So if kwik fit of all people never mentioned it I
> can't imagine it to be necessary to replace them in pairs.
>
If the leak was not bad and had not contaminated the shoes, just replace the
seals in the cylinder.
If the shoes were contaminated, it may well be best to replace the shoes and
cylinders (if one was leaking, the other may well be soon). It won't be too
difficult or expensive.
JB
Grunff
> Only one of my rear wheel cylinders is leaking. One place
> automatically quoted me for replacing 2 wheel cylinders (and shoes)
> saying you should replace them in pairs and gave me some explanation
> for this. Another place (kwik fit) never mentioned I should replace
> the other one also. So if kwik fit of all people never mentioned it I
> can't imagine it to be necessary to replace them in pairs.
While you don't *have* to replace both sides at the same time, it is
good practice to do so. It'll insure good left/right balance. Also, if
one has failed, the other is usually not far behind.
While doing the cylinders, it's worth doing the shoes at the same time,
since it only adds 10 minutes to the job.
--
Grunff
Grunff
> If the leak was not bad and had not contaminated the shoes, just replace the
> seals in the cylinder.
There's really very little point in just replacing seals on a cylinder -
especially if paying someone else to do it. New cylinders range from £5
to £20 (depending on car).
--
Grunff
Andy Coleman
"Ted" <?@?.?> wrote in message
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:39:47 +0000, Grunff <gru...@ixxa.com> wrote:
>
>
> One of them has been replaced sometime ago, so one is the original and
> the other a newer one. I would guess it is the older one that is
> leaking. So there is no reason to replace them in pairs is there?
> That reminds me as when one was replaced the last time it was not done
> in a pair and that was years ago, must of done about another 50k since
> then. Yes the fluid has contaminated the shoes on the cylinder that
> is leaking.
>
> The seals are about 8 pound and the cylinders 16 pounds. Shoes are
> about 16/18 pounds I think.
>
> You say replacing shoes only add 10 mins to the job. Well its nice to
> know the places I went to (fast fit) quote the same price for fitting
> shoes and fitting cylinders and add them together. So they are
> quoting about 40 pound to replace each cylinder and 40 pound to do
> the shoes. Does this sound right? Is this normal garage practice to
> charge labour for the jobs individually and then combine them so
> customer is paying for some of the job twice?
>
>
I don't see any reason why you should replace both cylinders !
I've just done a service on my Rover, one was leaking, one wasn't.
I got the leaking one changed, it cost £55 as the cylinder was over £30.
As for doing the two jobs together, you're not really paying twice !
The only repetition is gaining access to the brake. I suppose there
could be a small reduction.
Andy
J.L.E
in article news:deqqruo3gu1j6fsrv...@4ax.com
sent us these words of wisdom.
<snip>
>
> You say replacing shoes only add 10 mins to the job. Well its nice
to
> know the places I went to (fast fit) quote the same price for
fitting
> shoes and fitting cylinders and add them together. So they are
> quoting about 40 pound to replace each cylinder and 40 pound to do
> the shoes. Does this sound right? Is this normal garage practice
to
> charge labour for the jobs individually and then combine them so
> customer is paying for some of the job twice?
If the shoes need to come off to replace the cylinder then it adds
nothing (or very little to the job time) but on some set ups it is not
necessary to remove the shoes, so replacing the shoes will add time to
the job IYSWIM. In your case, the shoes need to be replace as they are
contaminated.
As to the price you have been quoted, ask them (better still get
someone to phone them) what there labour rate is per hour, that will
give you an idea on how they have quoted. It's a bit difficult to
advise on times and labour cost when not knowing the make and model of
car.
One last point, as you need to change the shoes, I would advise you
replace both cylinders, just imagine if the other cylinder starts to
leak on those nice new shoes....
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simon
"Grunff" <gru...@ixxa.com> wrote in message
news:3DBD6B88...@ixxa.com...
contaminated,some people do both but i would do the one that's leaking,just
keep an eye on the other side,maybe replace the other one if it lasts till
the shoes need replacing-just an idea.
AWM
Explain please if you can you will have discovered something totally new in
hydraulics.
Wheel cylinders when operating correctly do not have any effect on
transverse brake balance if the correct replacement is fitted ie. the same
bore cylinder is fitted to both sides.
It is however prudent to overhaul or replace both cylinders on the same axle
if one has failed pruely because the other is likely to fail very soon.
Brake shoes should be replaced as an axle set because even if the friction
material is of an identical type it cannot be guaranteed the friction
coefficient will be the same as that of a linning which has been in service
for sometime, however on a rear axle (even more so on a fwd car) it may
make little or no difference.
>
Grunff
> Explain please if you can you will have discovered something totally new in
> hydraulics.
Ok, I see where you're going. I read the OP's questions a "is it worth
replacing both cylinders, n/s and o/s.
--
Grunff
Guy King
<deqqruo3gu1j6fsrv...@4ax.com>said....
.
> Is this normal garage practice to
> charge labour for the jobs individually and then combine them so
> customer is paying for some of the job twice?
Sadly...yes.
--
Skipweasel:-
Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. - G.K.
Chesterton
robgraham
> replace both cylinders, just imagine if the other cylinder starts to
> leak on those nice new shoes....
I must say I have never yet failed to restore oily shoes to perfect working
condition by cleaning off the oil/brakefluid with cellulose thinners. It's
always said that you can't get oil off, but you can.
Rob Graham
Andy Coleman
"Ted" <?@?.?> wrote in message
>
> I don't see any point in replacing both cylinders either, as I had one
> replaced over years ago. The other one has lasted another 5yrs/50k so
> what would of been the point in replacing both cylinders that time?
>
> My cylinder is cheaper than yours which works out at 24 pound labour
> which is about the same as yours. Did you get the shoes replaced at
> same time?
>
No. The whole point of checking the cylinders is to discover
a leak before enough fluid escapes to contaminate the shoes.
I have discussed and written about this to many people over
the years as service manuals are very vague in this area. I am
now of the opinion that a degree of moisture within the dust
cover is OK, whereas free fluid requires a cylinder change.
Some garages clean contaminated shoes and I know it works
but personally I would prefer to change them for new.
Andy
AWM
"Andy Coleman" <andy_c...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:aplf7c$2knjm$1...@ID-152927.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Ted" <?@?.?> wrote in message
> news:iivrrusmbt50q331l...@4ax.com...
> a leak before enough fluid escapes to contaminate the shoes.
> I have discussed and written about this to many people over
> the years as service manuals are very vague in this area. I am
> now of the opinion that a degree of moisture within the dust
> cover is OK, whereas free fluid requires a cylinder change.
> Some garages clean contaminated shoes and I know it works
> but personally I would prefer to change them for new.
>
> Andy
>
Yes on rear shoes cleaning usually works well enough but for anyone reading
with an older (pre mid 1970s) cars with drum brakes on the front axle
cleaning/washing front brake shoes is really not on and will result in the
front brakes snatching and pulling to the side.
>
AWM
"robgraham" <robg...@teethntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:97rv9.338$bn.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Try it on the front brakes of a drum braked 1970s Mk2 Escort or Avenger,
slightest difference in efficiency between the left and right would result
in a very nasty snatch and pull to the side.
AWM
"Ted" <?@?.?> wrote in message
> tell lies without thinking the customer may be knowledgeable in these
> matters. They would fool most of the general public but not me. It
> makes u lose faith in the whole company. If they were honest and just
> said one needs replacing I probably would of went ahead with it right
> away. But since I get the feeling they were trying it on and telling
> me to replace both at once they probably won't get the job at all and
> I will take it elsewhere. Some right unscrupulous practices go on at
> these places, some of them would argue that black is white. These
> people do not expect the customer to know what they are talking about,
> makes them look really stupid when they try to pull a fast one.
>
> Makes me want to tell them to sod off and learn how to do it myself.
> They are virging on crooks some of the bullshit they have told me over
> the years. Goodness knows what they get away with when dealing with
> more gull able customers.
>
> Give me a genuine reason why wheel cylinders should be replaced in
> pairs at 40 quid a time. They are not even the same age.
The seals on wheel cylinders don't usually fail because of wear or aging
usually it is caused by the conditions they are working in, water and dirt
ingress through the outer cover and fluid contaminated with moisture and
particlers.
Guy King
.
> Is this the correct practice or are you saying they shouldn't do this
> but it is so common a practice that it is normal?
The latter. A sharp eyed customer who's willing to whine and kick will
get it stirred into one price, but most people don't understand that to
replace the cylinder you're going to have to take the shoes off anyway
and not pay to have 'em taken off twice.
Guy King
the shed and in <aplf7c$2knjm$1...@ID-152927.news.dfncis.de>said....
.
> No. The whole point of checking the cylinders is to discover
> a leak before enough fluid escapes to contaminate the shoes.
Although a trace of fluid behind the rubber dust seal does not mean that
the cylinder's shot. Most of 'em accumulate a little after a few years,
but the KwikFits of this world will use it as proof that they need
replacing.
J.L.E
in article news:97rv9.338$bn.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net
sent us these words of wisdom…
And how much experience have you have, how many sets or years have you
successfully 'restored' these brake shoes, my experience on
contaminated set over more than 25 year (5.5 day a week) tells me
otherwise. Also, with labour rates as they are per hour It has got to
be cheaper these days to just replace, rather than pay for the time
taken to try and clean the contamination.
J.L.E
sent us these words of wisdom.<snip>
>
> Give me a genuine reason why wheel cylinders should be replaced in
> pairs at 40 quid a time. They are not even the same age.
You have been lucky then, most seem to fail at or near the same time
[1], being the same age and all that.
[1] I say this with over 25 years experience.
robgraham
> successfully 'restored' these brake shoes,
Probably over 30, but I accept that I'm not a professional and don't charge
for my time. All I can say is that with the ones I've done (far, far, less
than you, probably) I've never had a problem. If I had experienced uneven
braking I would then have replaced the shoes. But I give them a clean first.
Rob
hugh jampton
the hydraulic
union - on older cars, this can lead to more work :-)
Grunff <gru...@ixxa.com> wrote in message news:3DBD6B88...@ixxa.com...
Pete Smith
> Ted <?@?.?> sniffed the heady air of the shed and in
> <deqqruo3gu1j6fsrv...@4ax.com>said....
> .
> > Is this normal garage practice to
> > charge labour for the jobs individually and then combine them so
> > customer is paying for some of the job twice?
>
> Sadly...yes.
One place (in Chester, Trading Standard Approved), once tried to charge my
GF several (ie around 4 times) for the same job.
The rear wheel cylinders and all 4 flex hoses needed doing. They wanted to
charge for replacing the cylinders, plus brake bleeding, and the hoses, and
brake bleeding, and then for replacing the brake fluid, then bleeding. They
also wanted 40 quid for brake fluid for a Pug 205.
After she had words, re the level of service she was getting, the price
dropped 400 quid, and they gave her a free back box. I think they were
shitting themselves she'd go to Trading Standards!
Pete.
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MrCheerful
> I had my rear cylinder replaced on passenger side. Then two days later pop the drivers side went so now I will definitely do them in pairs. I done the passenger side myself but could not get drivers side off took it to a garage they charged me £56 then I got it back with spongee brakes and they charged me 37 pounds for bleeding them. Now wish I bled myself. But from now on I will do them in pairs
>
not to replace both together, if one has failed the other will usually
follow soon in any case.