locking wheel nut sheared (citroen c3)
Stephen
I had a problem with my brakes (another post on here) so I decided to
take the wheel off for a closer look. I put the locking wheel nut
"key" onto the security wheel bolt. The key has four lumps that engage
with four dimples on the bolt. When I tried to turn it, the dimples
just sheared off!
I phoned the dealer, who surprised me by being extremely helpful. He
suggested hitting it with a hammer and chisel. As you may know, the
bolts on a c3 are recessed so I wasn't sure how I would hit them
without hitting the alloy wheel. As the security bolt is round, I
wasn't sure quite where I was supposed to hit it either. Any tips for
future reference?
It was suggested I tried an emergency remover made by laser. I had a
read of the reviews on the halfords web site but it said they only
work on some cars and one poster said they didn't work on his citroen,
though he didn't state which model.
I bought one to try. I was told I needed an impact wrench to turn it
but I didn't have one, so I tried to turn it by hand. It did turn but
the tip of the bolt sheared off!
I phoned a local, non-dealer, non-citroen, garage and they said that
the bolts are designed to shear specifically to stop crooks using
these emergency remover kits. Is that true? The dealer never warned me
about that.
At this point I had lost the side and top of the bolt but there was
still enough flange that it was holding the wheel on. I called the
dealer who said they could remove it for �40+vat. This seemed an
amazing price coming from a dealer, so I rushed it in.
They warned me they might scratch the alloy wheel in the process and I
noticed afterwards a couple of small chips at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock
from the bolt. I could see through a window into the workshop but my
car was right at the back, obscured by the other vehicles, so I didn't
see what they did. Any ideas how they managed this?
I bought a normal bolt to replace it and replaced the security bolts
on the other wheels too, so that this never happens again.
Has anyone else had this experience and how did you solve it?
Thanks,
Stephen
Adrian
they were saying:
> I phoned a local, non-dealer, non-citroen, garage and they said that the
> bolts are designed to shear specifically to stop crooks using these
> emergency remover kits. Is that true? The dealer never warned me about
> that.
Makes sense - after all, a security bolt which could be easily defeated
wouldn't offer a lot of security, would it?
> They warned me they might scratch the alloy wheel in the process and I
> noticed afterwards a couple of small chips at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock
> from the bolt. I could see through a window into the workshop but my car
> was right at the back, obscured by the other vehicles, so I didn't see
> what they did. Any ideas how they managed this?
Drilled it out, probably.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
Dynomec make a nice kit for the purpose, if you've not got rotating
collars then everybody & their dog sells internally threaded sockets that
work eventually.
Stephen
>Makes sense - after all, a security bolt which could be easily defeated
>wouldn't offer a lot of security, would it?
But how can the bolt "tell" that it is being screwed backwards by an
emergency socket rather than the security "key"? I only unscrewed it
by hand so I wouldn't have used more force than with the standard
wheel brace.
>> They warned me they might scratch the alloy wheel in the process and I
>> noticed afterwards a couple of small chips at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock
>> from the bolt. I could see through a window into the workshop but my car
>> was right at the back, obscured by the other vehicles, so I didn't see
>> what they did. Any ideas how they managed this?
>
>Drilled it out, probably.
What sort of metal are these bolts made from? Would you need a hard
left handed drill bit to drill it out? I wasn't sure whether drilling
would work because if it had been over tightened by an air gun, would
a drill be able to supply that much torque?
They gave me the bolt back and it is chewed up at the 9 o'clock and 3
o'clock (or is it 6 and 12 ;)) positions so it looks like something
was attached there. There are not any visible drill holes. There's
also the matter of the chips on either side of the alloy wheel. A
drill would not have touched these points. I'm sure there's a bit more
magic involved!
Stephen
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>everybody & their dog sells internally threaded sockets that
>work eventually
That's what I used but it sheared the head of the nut off.
Mrcheerful
Duncan Wood
wrote:
AT that point you're stuck with using a Dynomec or a left hand drill bit.
Mrcheerful
That dynomec set looks like a very useful addition to the toolbox.
Stephen
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>AT that point you're stuck with using a Dynomec or a left hand drill bit.
Thanks. I am pretty sure they didn't use dynomec because from reading
the url given in another reply, it seems that the dynomec has a soft
metal sleeve that deforms around the remains of the bolt. I didn't
really have anything left for a dynomec to surround: it was more or
less a flat disc by the time I had sheared off the top. I think they
must have drilled it.
I have seen left handed bits but I don't know what metal they were
made from. Would they drill into a wheel bolt or are the bolts too
hard? Would you need a cobalt steel bit?
That said, I've searched the net and found people selling extractor
sets which include a cobalt bit that is right handed to make the hole
and then a left handed extractor in another metal to remove the bolt.
Don't cobalt LH bits exist, that would cut out a step and make things
quicker.
Thanks,
Stephen.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:45:21 +0100, "Duncan Wood"
> <nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> AT that point you're stuck with using a Dynomec or a left hand drill
>> bit.
>
> Thanks. I am pretty sure they didn't use dynomec because from reading
> the url given in another reply, it seems that the dynomec has a soft
> metal sleeve that deforms around the remains of the bolt. I didn't
> really have anything left for a dynomec to surround: it was more or
> less a flat disc by the time I had sheared off the top. I think they
> must have drilled it.
>
There's more than one bit, some of them are sharp teeth you hammer into
the top of the bolt.
> I have seen left handed bits but I don't know what metal they were
> made from. Would they drill into a wheel bolt or are the bolts too
> hard? Would you need a cobalt steel bit?
>
> That said, I've searched the net and found people selling extractor
> sets which include a cobalt bit that is right handed to make the hole
> and then a left handed extractor in another metal to remove the bolt.
> Don't cobalt LH bits exist, that would cut out a step and make things
> quicker.
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen.
Yup, they're called Left hand spiral drill bits. Handy for most buggered
bolts,
http://www.thesitebox.com/Category/4158/left-hand-jobber-drill.aspx
Centre drill bits work best though
http://www.phantomdrills.co.uk/ShowProducts.aspx?CatID=505
and they're cheaper if you've got a real tool shop or know anyone in the
US.
Stephen
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>There's more than one bit, some of them are sharp teeth you hammer into
>the top of the bolt.
I did have two chewed-up areas on the bolt, so perhaps that's where
they hammered something in?
>Yup, they're called Left hand spiral drill bits. Handy for most buggered
>bolts,
Thanks. The links you gave were for HSS bits. Will they drill into the
bolts? Being a security bolt,I thought they may have been made of
harder steel to prevent drilling, requiring a cobalt steel bits?
I have taken the other three security bolts off and replaced them with
normal ones. When I've got time, I may try and drill these to see if a
HSS bit will work. What's the trick: to use the biggest bit that you
can?
Thanks,
Stephen.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 22:16:01 -0000, "Duncan Wood"
> <nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> There's more than one bit, some of them are sharp teeth you hammer into
>> the top of the bolt.
>
> I did have two chewed-up areas on the bolt, so perhaps that's where
> they hammered something in?
>
>> Yup, they're called Left hand spiral drill bits. Handy for most buggered
>> bolts,
>
> Thanks. The links you gave were for HSS bits. Will they drill into the
> bolts? Being a security bolt,I thought they may have been made of
> harder steel to prevent drilling, requiring a cobalt steel bits?
>
Yup, sharp bit , plenty of lubrication & make a dimple in the centre with
a centre bit. But most security bolts aren't that hard.
> I have taken the other three security bolts off and replaced them with
> normal ones. When I've got time, I may try and drill these to see if a
> HSS bit will work. What's the trick: to use the biggest bit that you
> can?
>
No start with the smallest bit that you can use without it bending then
use one slightly smaller than the bolt shank.
> Thanks,
> Stephen.
The Other Mike
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>Yup, they're called Left hand spiral drill bits. Handy for most buggered
>bolts,
But IMHO utterly pointless as they just drill a hole exacly like a
normal drill. If they snag then you might get some slight effect but
as a bolt removal method or a means of even slighly loosening a bolt
they are about as good as snake oil.
--
Duncan Wood
Works for me nearly every time, maybe I just push harder. They nearly
always snag (I'm actually failing to remember the last time one didn't).
Mrcheerful
it is a combination of effects, removing metal relieves pressure on the
threads and the vibration/snagging drags the bolt in the right direction.
You get the same effect with a normal drill bit, but of course the broken
bit goes in further, but that is good if it is a through bolt with rust on
the exposed threads. The other way which can be quite useful on large bolts
is to drill straight down the threads with a small drill bit, then pour in
some penetrating oil , drill down the middle as usual to remove , the thread
hole lets penetrating oil get right round all the hidden threads and acts
like a thread chaser as the broken bit comes out. I have often found that
the best thing to knock into the hole to give leverage to undo is a Torx
bit, it gives grip without spreading the drilled broken stud/bolt
David
>>
>> They gave me the bolt back and it is chewed up at the 9 o'clock and 3
>> o'clock (or is it 6 and 12 ;)) positions so it looks like something
>> was attached there. There are not any visible drill holes. There's
>> also the matter of the chips on either side of the alloy wheel. A
>> drill would not have touched these points. I'm sure there's a bit more
>> magic involved!
>
> this kit does the job without damage:
> http://www.dynomec.co.uk/index.html
>
Hi All,
With regard to the "Dynomec" tool, it occurs to me that *maybe* the force
used to deform the top of the sheared bolt / screw might damage the
suspension and or the mounts.
I would imagine that the vehicle would be on a lift to enable the mechanic a
good hard swing. The impact would be off the centre line of the stub axle,
and some of the force of the impact (not all would be absorbed by the
deformation of the stuck shaft) transferred to the suspension components.
I think I would rather drill out the remains of the wheel bolt.
regards
David
Duncan Wood
Compared with driving down the road it's pretty negligible force:-)
David
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> With regard to the "Dynomec" tool, it occurs to me that *maybe* the force
>> used to deform the top of the sheared bolt / screw might damage the
>> suspension and or the mounts.
>> I would imagine that the vehicle would be on a lift to enable the
>> mechanic a
>> good hard swing. The impact would be off the centre line of the stub
>> axle,
>> and some of the force of the impact (not all would be absorbed by the
>> deformation of the stuck shaft) transferred to the suspension components.
>>
>> I think I would rather drill out the remains of the wheel bolt.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>
> Compared with driving down the road it's pretty negligible force:-)
I do not entirely agree; driving down the road will not give a side impact
at such force, unless one understeers into a kerb with the wheel turned.
I've done that and bent the wishbones and mounting bolts, about 22 years ago
;-)
Are you telling me that the suspension is designed to absorb a sideways
smack ? If it was, then the impact would have very little effect on the
sheared bolt.
regards
David
Stephen
<dun...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>Works for me nearly every time, maybe I just push harder. They nearly
>always snag (I'm actually failing to remember the last time one didn't).
I realise I am closing the door after the horse has bolted but in
anticipation of next time, what do you think is the best thing to have
on standby?
I've looked at the URLS in earlier replies for left handed drill bits,
thanks.
I have also found these:
right handed drills with left handed extractors 1-5mm:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-cobalt-drill-and-easy-out-set-prod462398/
And there seem to be several Irwin sets of "reverse spiral", which
seems to me to be another way of saying "left handed", like this:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set
and
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/irwin-lugnut-bolt-grip-set
and
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/7pce-screw-bolt-extractor-set
The only difference that I can see between the various Irwin sets is
the sizes; there are big sets to be used in wrenches and ratchets on
big nuts down to small drill-driven sizes for small nuts. To get them
all seems an expensive way of doing things. Would the left handed bits
or the axminster set be a cheaper way of protecting myself from
similar problems in the future?
Thanks,
Stephen.
Stephen
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>Centre drill bits work best though
>
>http://www.phantomdrills.co.uk/ShowProducts.aspx?CatID=505
I was just re-reading the replies and I notice to mention left handed
bits and then say centre drill bits are better. Sorry for being thick
but what is a centre bit and how is it different from a left handed
bit. I read the URL but that suggests that centre bit is left handed
so I am very confused!
Thanks,
Stephen.
Stephen
<dun...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>No start with the smallest bit that you can use without it bending then
>use one slightly smaller than the bolt shank.
Thanks. I was worried that using the smallest one might result in it
snapping and making the problem worse but having re-read your reply, I
see that you qualified that by saying the smallest that will not bend
so that makes sense.
I wasn't sure whether a small bit would provide enough torque to undo
a wheel nut that had been over tightened by an air gun?
I suppose that by going up through the sizes you get more chances,
whereas if you start with the biggest bit you have, you only get one
go?
Thanks,
Stephen.
Adrian
they were saying:
> I suppose that by going up through the sizes you get more chances,
> whereas if you start with the biggest bit you have, you only get one go?
Yup. It's also a lot easier on the drill and bit to start with a small
one, then gradually expand it in size.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
A centre drill is just a thick drill with a thin point sticking out the
end, it's a lot stiffer than a thin drill the same length but can't drill
in very far. The advantage is that it doesn't drift sideways if you don't
get it square on in the 1st place & it's harder to snap. That's a link to
a left handed centre drill
Duncan Wood
wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Nov 2010 11:33:43 -0000, "Duncan Wood"
> <dun...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> No start with the smallest bit that you can use without it bending then
>> use one slightly smaller than the bolt shank.
>
> Thanks. I was worried that using the smallest one might result in it
> snapping and making the problem worse but having re-read your reply, I
> see that you qualified that by saying the smallest that will not bend
> so that makes sense.
>
BTDT, own many different varieties of dremel etc. If you snap it off it
does make life worse, but you can normally get it out.
> I wasn't sure whether a small bit would provide enough torque to undo
> a wheel nut that had been over tightened by an air gun?
>
> I suppose that by going up through the sizes you get more chances,
> whereas if you start with the biggest bit you have, you only get one
> go?
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen.
Starting with the biggest one you can get central works best, the problem
is that the bigger the bit the easier it is to get it to float sideways
whilst it's starting and the greateer the chance you'll hit the threads.
Duncan Wood
That's a good excuse to buy a bigger drill :-)
Duncan Wood
wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:06:55 -0000, "Duncan Wood"
> <dun...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Works for me nearly every time, maybe I just push harder. They nearly
>> always snag (I'm actually failing to remember the last time one didn't).
>
> I realise I am closing the door after the horse has bolted but in
> anticipation of next time, what do you think is the best thing to have
> on standby?
>
> I've looked at the URLS in earlier replies for left handed drill bits,
> thanks.
>
> I have also found these:
> right handed drills with left handed extractors 1-5mm:
> http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-cobalt-drill-and-easy-out-set-prod462398/
>
Personally the only ones of those that I've ever found worth using are the
Dormer ones. Those look similar but I've no desire to grind another screw
extractor out.
> And there seem to be several Irwin sets of "reverse spiral", which
> seems to me to be another way of saying "left handed", like this:
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set
> and
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/irwin-lugnut-bolt-grip-set
> and
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/7pce-screw-bolt-extractor-set
>
> The only difference that I can see between the various Irwin sets is
> the sizes; there are big sets to be used in wrenches and ratchets on
> big nuts down to small drill-driven sizes for small nuts. To get them
> all seems an expensive way of doing things. Would the left handed bits
> or the axminster set be a cheaper way of protecting myself from
> similar problems in the future?
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen.
They're not bad, but the 1st set only fit AF bolt heads and the 3rd set
are really for getting screws out.
The Other Mike
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:56:18 -0000, Stephen <ste...@nowhere.com.invalid>
>wrote:
>Personally the only ones of those that I've ever found worth using are the
>Dormer ones. Those look similar but I've no desire to grind another screw
>extractor out.
The reason the Dormer ones are marginally better is because they are
properly heat treated and they recommend drill sizes for different
base materials although this is on an easily lost slip of paper. I
still prefer the parallel splined ones though
>> And there seem to be several Irwin sets of "reverse spiral", which
>> seems to me to be another way of saying "left handed", like this:
>> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set
>They're not bad, but the 1st set only fit AF bolt head
The Irwin bolt grips fit metric ones too depending on the level of
corrosion of the nut, the sizes are not rigidly set in stone no matter
what it says on the marketing blurb, the box or the side of the tool.
I expanded my set with the infill set of another five extractors a
long time ago so there is lots of choice in the 10 - 16mm range if
the prime extractor doesn't work first time. I like them a lot
especially when it's not really practical to get a welding torch to
the right spot. They recently saved me about 20 hours of work and
potentially 300+ quids worth of parts on one job on an exhaust
downpipe.
--
Stephen
<nntp...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>A centre drill is just a thick drill with a thin point sticking out the
>end, it's a lot stiffer than a thin drill the same length but can't drill
>in very far. The advantage is that it doesn't drift sideways if you don't
>get it square on in the 1st place & it's harder to snap.
Thanks. I think drill bits are the way to go. Those Irwin sockets are
only any good if you have the same size socket as the bolt you are
trying to remove and sod's law says no matter how many you have, you
won't have the right one. A drill bit on the other hand can be used on
any bolt that's bigger than the bit, so it is more versatile.
You said centre drills can't drill far. Does the bolt become loose
before you've got far or do you have to switch bits to a non-centre LH
bit after a certain depth to finish the job?
Thanks,
Stephen.
Duncan Wood
Both points agreed with, but I've found the infill set more use than the
original set.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:58:21 -0000, "Duncan Wood"
The centre is only about 3 times the diameter so you have to switch to a
non centre drill, but at that point you have a nice hole to start the next
drill off without it wandering.
Duncan Wood
The impact does have very little effect on the bolt, & walloping the bolt
with a 41b lump hammer will have far less effect on the suspension than a
ton of cardriving round an even slightly bumpy corner. Hitting a kerb will
apply far more force than Geoff Capes weiding a sedgehammer.
David
>Hitting a kerb will
> apply far more force than Geoff Capes weiding a sedgehammer.
Ha Ha, agreed.
> The impact does have very little effect on the bolt, & walloping the bolt
> with a 41b lump hammer will have far less effect on the suspension than a
> ton of cardriving round an even slightly bumpy corner.
Not entirely convinced.
Tyres absorb a large amount of the impact of bumps in the road rendering
them to an applied force rather than an impact lasting a much shorter
time frame.
I believe many blows, hard enough, will possibly alter toe-in / camber
settings.
I would still rather drill them out.
David
jamiefr...@gmail.com
wrongfue...@wfrecoverygroup.co.uk
> Hello,
>
> I had a problem with my brakes (another post on here) so I decided to
> take the wheel off for a closer look. I put the locking wheel nut
> "key" onto the security wheel bolt. The key has four lumps that engage
> with four dimples on the bolt. When I tried to turn it, the dimples
> just sheared off!
>
> I phoned the dealer, who surprised me by being extremely helpful. He
> suggested hitting it with a hammer and chisel. As you may know, the
> bolts on a c3 are recessed so I wasn't sure how I would hit them
> without hitting the alloy wheel. As the security bolt is round, I
> wasn't sure quite where I was supposed to hit it either. Any tips for
> future reference?
>
> It was suggested I tried an emergency remover made by laser. I had a
> read of the reviews on the halfords web site but it said they only
> work on some cars and one poster said they didn't work on his citroen,
> though he didn't state which model.
>
> I bought one to try. I was told I needed an impact wrench to turn it
> but I didn't have one, so I tried to turn it by hand. It did turn but
> the tip of the bolt sheared off!
>
> I phoned a local, non-dealer, non-citroen, garage and they said that
> the bolts are designed to shear specifically to stop crooks using
> these emergency remover kits. Is that true? The dealer never warned me
> about that.
>
> At this point I had lost the side and top of the bolt but there was
> still enough flange that it was holding the wheel on. I called the
> dealer who said they could remove it for �40+vat. This seemed an
> amazing price coming from a dealer, so I rushed it in.
>
> They warned me they might scratch the alloy wheel in the process and I
> noticed afterwards a couple of small chips at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock
> from the bolt. I could see through a window into the workshop but my
> car was right at the back, obscured by the other vehicles, so I didn't
> see what they did. Any ideas how they managed this?
>
> I bought a normal bolt to replace it and replaced the security bolts
> on the other wheels too, so that this never happens again.
>
> Has anyone else had this experience and how did you solve it?
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
Get one of these guys out to help you, they came out to my Mercedes and got the locking wheel bolts off in 15 minutes https://www.lockingwheelnutremovers.co.uk/
Fredxxx
a 7 year old post.
Both domains (wfrecoverygroup.co.uk and lockingwheelnutremovers.co.uk)
are owned by yourself and I am aware that marketing yourself is no easy
task.
By all means provide helpful advice to people here and use a signature
incorporating a chosen domain, but don't make it quite so obvious that
most would associate the help with spam.
HTH
vany...@gmail.com
Peter Hill
> Well, as the original question was posted 7 years ago, the car may no longer exist!
>