Cavalier 1.7TD Starting difficulties
Mr Mike
starting Difficulties, but here goes.
Cavalier 1.7 Turbo Diesel 1995 Model, covered just 20,000 miles.
When left over night is very difficult to start.
I have checked each glow plug across the battery, they all glow red in less
than two seconds.
With the glow plugs in place, I measured the voltage on the supply rail to
all four plugs. This receives 11.5volts as soon as the ignition is switched
on, and remains there for about five seconds after the glowplug warning
light goes out.
Once the engine has fired, it seems happy to instantly restart again any
time during the same day.
There is mo problem once the engine is running, it is both smooth and
responsive.
I thought the problem may be fuel related, such as the fuel draining back
into the tank over night.
All the pipes seem tight and in very good condition. I decided to replace
the fuel filter, which was only 2,000 miles old, Interestingly, the new
filter has a rubber seal in the centre, the old one didn't. Despite this, it
fitted without problem and both the inner and out seal mate at the same
time. This hasn't improved matters.
The Fuel filter may be a red herring, as the problem started before I
replaced the filter, and the situation has neither improved or got worse.
If I took it to a garage, no matter when the looked at it that day, it would
start fine!
Any ideas please?
Thank you
Mike
Simon Canfer
Mr Mike <No_r...@any.org> wrote in message news:8dmheq$l2k$1...@gxsn.com...
> Unusual one, perhaps someone can help? I apologise for re-raising Diesel
> starting Difficulties, but here goes.
> Cavalier 1.7 Turbo Diesel 1995 Model, covered just 20,000 miles.
> When left over night is very difficult to start.
> I have checked each glow plug across the battery, they all glow red in
less
> than two seconds.
> With the glow plugs in place, I measured the voltage on the supply rail to
> all four plugs. This receives 11.5volts as soon as the ignition is
switched
> on, and remains there for about five seconds after the glowplug warning
> light goes out.
> Once the engine has fired, it seems happy to instantly restart again any
> time during the same day.
> There is mo problem once the engine is running, it is both smooth and
> responsive.
> I thought the problem may be fuel related, such as the fuel draining back
> into the tank over night.
> All the pipes seem tight and in very good condition. I decided to replace
> the fuel filter, which was only 2,000 miles old, Interestingly, the new
> filter has a rubber seal in the centre, the old one didn't.
I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but could the old seal have been
left in place?!
>Despite this, it
> fitted without problem and both the inner and out seal mate at the same
> time. This hasn't improved matters.
> The Fuel filter may be a red herring, as the problem started before I
> replaced the filter, and the situation has neither improved or got worse.
> If I took it to a garage, no matter when the looked at it that day, it
would
> start fine!
> Any ideas please?
>
> Thank you
>
> Mike
>
Maybe the dreaded air leaking into the fuel system somewhere, as you
suggested,
allowing fuel to drain back to the tank. Apparently one trick is to wipe
gears over all
the unions. If this works, try removing the grease on each in turn ( I guess
one per day!)
until the problem re-appears.
Just a guess; as all my diesel starting problems have been plug-related.
Simon
Mr Mike
Subject: Re: Cavalier 1.7TD Starting difficulties
Date: 20 April 2000 13:08
> Mr Mike <No_r...@any.org> wrote in message news:8dmheq$l2k$1...@gxsn.com...
> > Unusual one, perhaps someone can help? I apologise for re-raising Diesel
> > starting Difficulties, but here goes.
> > Cavalier 1.7 Turbo Diesel 1995 Model, covered just 20,000 miles.
> > When left over night is very difficult to start.
> I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but could the old seal have been
> left in place?!
Thanks for the reply, No there wasn't an old inner seal. I checked the top
housing of the filter, there is just a plastic bush. Both the inner and
outer seals of the new filter make contact at the same time. Your are of
course correct, it is always worth a check, which I did when I compared the
new and old filter. The main issue is that the problem started before I
changed the filter. After checking the glowplugs, I tried changing the fuel
filter.
SEE LATER......
> > Any ideas please?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> Maybe the dreaded air leaking into the fuel system somewhere, as you
> suggested,
> allowing fuel to drain back to the tank. Apparently one trick is to wipe
> gears over all
> the unions. If this works, try removing the grease on each in turn ( I
guess
> one per day!)
> until the problem re-appears.
>
> Just a guess; as all my diesel starting problems have been plug-related.
>
> Simon
>
I got to admit that unless someone has any better ideas, the grease on the
joints seems to be the next option to try.
Thank you for you advice Simon.
I have to be honest, I was so fed up that I did take it to the Local
Vauxhall Main dealers. After looking at it for a day, and charging me £60,
they said there is nothing wrong with the vehicle.
The difficulty is, that letting the engine go cold doesn't cause the
problem, it has to be stood for more than twelve hours.
Any further ideas would be very welcome.
Regards
Mike Aspaturian
Darren
If you can replicate this concern every morning then it might be
worth trying the following which could save you a lot of time
investigating the fuel system unnecessarily.
I used to have a 1.7TD Cavalier which gave the same symptoms as
yours when attempting to start after an overnight stand. I found
that if I gave it two goes of the heater plugs, rather than just
one, it would start perfectly. Wait until the plug light goes
out the first time, key off, key back on and wait until the plug
light goes out the second time. Once the light goes out the
second time crank the engine and see if it starts. If it does I
would suggest that you probably don't have a air ingress problem.
Having said that, it won't prove that the heater plugs are
faulty, but it will rule out other factors.
Mine was covered by the excellent NetworkQ warranty, so the
dealer did the usual thing - didn't verify the concern, didn't
recreate the concern, didn't carryout any diagnosis - just
fitted a new set of plugs. Needless to say it didn't cure the
concern. Unfortunately I sold the car before I'd had a chance to
investigate myself, so I never got to the bottom of the problem.
I don't know how sophisticated the heater plug system is on the
1.7TD unit but, if it's timer/ambient temperature controlled,
diagnosis will be difficult unless you can obtain some genuine
figures which will tell you how long the plugs should be powered-
up for depending on ambient or engine temperature.
Also don't rule out the basic things such as poor compression or
poor spray pattern from the injectors. Could it be that the
piston rings are gummed up on an engine that's 5 years old and
only covered 20K?
Incidentally, it's not always a good test to short a heater plug
across a battery - some aren't rated at 12V, so connecting
directly causes instant failure (they do glow quite nicely
though - briefly). It's far better to obtain the specified
resistance value for the plugs and then test accordingly.
I'm about to change my wife's tired old Astra 1.3 for a newer
Astra or Cavalier TD, so if anyone's got any specific details of
the heater plug strategy it would be much appreciated.
Best of luck
Darren.
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Mr Mike
Darren <dazp33N...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:023c725e...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com...
> Mike
>
> I found that if I gave it two goes of the heater plugs, rather than just
> one, it would start perfectly. Wait until the plug light goes
> out the first time, key off, key back on and wait until the plug
> light goes out the second time. Once the light goes out the
> second time crank the engine and see if it starts.
I had already tried two and even three goes of the glowplugs before cranking
the engine. It doesn't help at all.
.
>
> I don't know how sophisticated the heater plug system is on the
> 1.7TD unit but, if it's timer/ambient temperature controlled,
> diagnosis will be difficult unless you can obtain some genuine
> figures which will tell you how long the plugs should be powered-
> up for depending on ambient or engine temperature.
The glow plugs have a sophisticated timer / ambient control system. When the
engine is hot, the glowplug warning light only briefly flashes on then off.
Having said that, if it were a timer problem, you would have thought
engaging the glowplug heater twice / three times before cranking to have
some efect.
>
> Also don't rule out the basic things such as poor compression or
> poor spray pattern from the injectors. Could it be that the
> piston rings are gummed up on an engine that's 5 years old and
> only covered 20K?
Thje mileage is genuine! soon after buying it brand new, I was relocated and
now live within walking distance from work. The vehicle is never used over
the winter months and about once every two week for a long run. The vehicle
is garaged and uses Mobil 1 oil and City Diesel fuel, so it isn't gummed up.
Compression is fine and once running you cannot fault the engine.
>
> Incidentally, it's not always a good test to short a heater plug
> across a battery - some aren't rated at 12V, so connecting
> directly causes instant failure (they do glow quite nicely
> though - briefly). It's far better to obtain the specified
> resistance value for the plugs and then test accordingly.
Thank you for the good advice. Vauxhall Diesel engines used two types of
glowplug, a 11volt type and a 5 volt type. Mine uses the 11volt plugs,
which should stand a short test across the battery. Before testing across a
battery, I did measure the impedance of each plug, the are all about 0.6
ohms. Unfortunately, impedance testing isn't always reliable.
> I'm about to change my wife's tired old Astra 1.3 for a newer
> Astra or Cavalier TD, so if anyone's got any specific details of
> the heater plug strategy it would be much appreciated.
>
> Best of luck
>
> Darren.
>
Thanks again for your reply Darren. Any other suggestions would be
gratefully recieved!
Regards
Mike
paul
try this. in the morning before you start your car,
remove the fuel inlet pipe rom the filter, have someone
turn the starter if fueldoes not come out straight away,
then as you say fuel is running back to the tankonce you
shut the engine down.
There should be a non return valve somwhere between the
lines, this may be faulty?.
have you checked the connections to the starter?
a slow turning starter could prevent a cold engine from
starting, as the starting rate greatly affects deisal
engines.
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Mr Mike
message news:0b176f73...@usw-ex0110-076.remarq.com...
> mike,
> try this. in the morning before you start your car,
> remove the fuel inlet pipe rom the filter, have someone
> turn the starter if fueldoes not come out straight away,
> then as you say fuel is running back to the tankonce you
> shut the engine down.
Thanks for the reply Paul
It may not be as simple as that. Fuel is drawn by the injector pump and
therefore the filter and fuel lines are under negative pressure. There is no
pump at the fuel tank, so removing the inlet fuel line to the filter will
not cause any fuel to flow while the engine is cranked.
It's times like this that you wish they fitted an in-line sight glass, so
you could see the fuel flow.
Perhaps if I slightly pressuries the fuel tank, any leak may become obvoius,
then again, the grease on the joints as suggested by Simon may be the simple
way to test for a leak, it that is what it is!
> There should be a non return valve somwhere between the
> lines, this may be faulty?.
>
I am unaware of any non-return valves in the fuel line, unless someone knows
better?
> have you checked the connections to the starter?
> a slow turning starter could prevent a cold engine from
> starting, as the starting rate greatly affects deisal
> engines.
>
The Start and the battery are fine. Ebven when cold, the start turns the
engine quickly.
>
Thank you for your advice Paul I do appreciate all the help everyone has
provided.
paul
i was getting confused with a petrol version.
the reason i stated this was becouse i had a friends car
with the same problem, only his had hand a priming pump
fitted. if you are completly stuck on this, email this guy
at a well known car mechanics magazine help page , he is
quick to reply, and knows his stuff.
Carm...@aol.com his name is Rodney Jaques.
hope this helps you out.
Anthony Britt
Mr Mike <No_r...@any.org> wrote in message news:8dmheq$l2k$1...@gxsn.com...
> Unusual one, perhaps someone can help? I apologise for re-raising Diesel
> starting Difficulties, but here goes.
> Cavalier 1.7 Turbo Diesel 1995 Model, covered just 20,000 miles.
> When left over night is very difficult to start.
less
> than two seconds.
> With the glow plugs in place, I measured the voltage on the supply rail to
> all four plugs. This receives 11.5volts as soon as the ignition is
switched
> on, and remains there for about five seconds after the glowplug warning
> light goes out.
> Once the engine has fired, it seems happy to instantly restart again any
> time during the same day.
> There is mo problem once the engine is running, it is both smooth and
> responsive.
> I thought the problem may be fuel related, such as the fuel draining back
> into the tank over night.
> All the pipes seem tight and in very good condition. I decided to replace
> the fuel filter, which was only 2,000 miles old, Interestingly, the new
it
> fitted without problem and both the inner and out seal mate at the same
> time. This hasn't improved matters.
> The Fuel filter may be a red herring, as the problem started before I
> replaced the filter, and the situation has neither improved or got worse.
> If I took it to a garage, no matter when the looked at it that day, it
would
> start fine!
>
> Thank you
>
> Mike
>
>
H ave the valve clearances been checked/adjusted recently? In my
experience, these engines are very sensitive to these clearances being
correct. Have them checked and adjusted (bucket and shims are used), and
you fill find that the problem should be sorted. you seem to have checked
everything else!!
HTH
Anthony
Steve - Musical Approach
clocked 192,000, and its never been done, would it improve if I did get it
done?
--
Steve - Musical Approach
Stafford & Aldridge W.Mids
steve.m-...@NOSPAMvirgin.net
http://fp.musicalapproach.f9.co.uk/
Anthony Britt <GSX...@abritt.junglelink.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8dogho$6qs$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Horseman
Steve - Musical Approach <steve.m-...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:Zl0M4.1419$In2....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> How often should these be adjusted, cos my Cav TD (Isuzu engine) just
> clocked 192,000, and its never been done, would it improve if I did get it
> done?
>
The service book will tell you that they are supposed to be check and adjusted
if necessary at a specified interval (which I can't remember) but it often gets
overlooked at the service.
I found it hard to believe that adjusting the tappets on one of my customers
cars (an Astra 1.7TD) would cure his cold-starting problem but it did and since
then I've come across it again with a Cav 1.7TD that had had everything done to
it to fix the cold-starting problem except the tappets, and sure enough they
were tight and after adjustment it was fine.
So yes they probably do need adjusting, which means camshaft out unless you've
got access to the special tool.
--
Horseman.
=============================
j.hor...@virginnet.co.uk
=============================
Dan
> I found it hard to believe that adjusting the tappets on one of my customers
> cars (an Astra 1.7TD) would cure his cold-starting problem but it did and since
> then I've come across it again with a Cav 1.7TD that had had everything done to
> it to fix the cold-starting problem except the tappets, and sure enough they
> were tight and after adjustment it was fine.
Diesels rely heavily on compression so if the valves aren't closing fully
it would be a problem. But it does seem odd! Don't valve clearances
usually get bigger, not smaller?
J.L.E
Dan <d.c.b...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3901292D...@durham.ac.uk...
>
<snip>
Don't valve clearances
> usually get bigger, not smaller?
>
If the valve seats erode the valve clearances will close up.
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Dan
>> Don't valve clearances
>> usually get bigger, not smaller?
> If the valve seats erode the valve clearances will close up.
Ahh of course. I've never had a car suffer this problem, they always were
noisy with high clearances, I assume down to camshaft/rocker/tappet wear.
Does diesel not provide enough lubrication to prevent valve seat recession?
Dan
--
http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d71tbg