Ford Focus not starting when warm

[alan]

Ford Focus 1.6, 2001, Mk1 – in the UK

When the engine is cold the car will start on the first turn of the key
– everytime. When running there are no problems at all, idle is smooth
as well is the acceleration or travelling in any gear. There is nothing
wrong with the battery – its heavy duty and around a year old and the
engine turns over okay.

If the car is stopped after 2 minutes or 30 minutes or 2 hours then 1
percent of the time it will not restart again until the engine has fully
cooled down. The problem is getting progressively worse.

All symptoms suggest lack of fuel. The engine turns over but will not
catch. In the fault condition the fuel pump doesn't prime on the turn of
the key BUT when the engine has cooled down it will prime without
problems and the engine will again start on the first turn of the key.

While I cannot rule out a fuel pump I suspect something else is
inhibiting the pump from being started during these episodes

An OBDII diagnostic doesn't show any fault codes, even when the engine
will not start. Real time monitoring of engine temperature shows no over
heating. The fault can occur after the engine has only been running a
few minutes and hasn't reached the opening temperature of the
thermostat. The hottest the engine ever gets is 119C (the sensor doesn't
measure the water temperature but the temperature of the metal in the
head). The temperature sensor has also been recently replaced.

Also replaced recently as part of a general service are the spark plugs.
The relays associated with the fuel system have also been swapped. Most
(all) connectors in the engine bay have been separated and remade with
no apparent signs of burning or contamination. Hoses all seem to be
okay. There is no loss of coolant or oil.

A Google for the problem shows it isn't uncommon but most postings don't
show any satisfactory solution. Owners have spent a lot of money having
fuel pumps and filters replaced for the fault to re-appear a short time
later.

Any sensible clues about what may be going wrong?


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[Mrcheerful]

Have you tried just directly powering the fuel pump, then you will know
whether it is definitely lack of fuel. Or run a pressure test on the
fuel system when it will not start.

First thought for your symptoms would usually be crank sensor rather
than fuel.

[Fred VIII]

On 10/02/2014 19:48, alan wrote:
>

Last time I had this happen was years ago with an Hillman Imp. After
trying absolutely everything it turned out to be a blocked jet in the
carb'. One jet came in to start the engine and the blocked one took over
after the engine was warm. Unblocking the jet cured it. I found out this
was standard practice with most makes of carb'. I've no idea if things
were done the same way in 2001 but I'd go for carb' trouble.

[alan]

On 10/02/2014 20:03, Mrcheerful wrote:

>
> Have you tried just directly powering the fuel pump, then you will know
> whether it is definitely lack of fuel. Or run a pressure test on the
> fuel system when it will not start.

Almost impossible to get the fault to occur when the car is in my
driveway - it usually happens away from home - and in the rain (only
because it hasn't stopped raining this year)

>
> First thought for your symptoms would usually be crank sensor rather
> than fuel.

Thanks - you are the second person to suggest this today.

[Mrcheerful]

carbs on new cars disappeared in the early 90s

[Fred VIII]

On 10/02/2014 20:50, Mrcheerful wrote:
.
>>
>>
>
> carbs on new cars disappeared in the early 90s

Lol thx.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Mrcheerful" wrote in message news:PXaKu.34519$a75....@fx11.am4...

Took me a while to work out why I couldn't find the Autochoke on my Astra.




Gareth.

[critcher]

critcher said........
my 2002 1.6 petrol focus always started on the first pull, then after
having a service the engine now requires a pull of 3-4 secs, as if the
fuel is not available for a few moments. Mind you it has done 142,000
miles and is very near to retirement.

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[Tim+]

critcher <w.gange...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>
> critcher said........

You know, you don't need to preface your own replies with "critcher said".
That task is performed by most (if not all) news clients. (See the top of
this message).

> my 2002 1.6 petrol focus always started on the first pull,

A recoil starter on your car?? ;-)

Tim

[Mrcheerful]

my A35 had a pull starter knob. probably early moggy minors too.

[Chris Whelan]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:10:38 +0000, Mrcheerful wrote:

[...]

> my A35 had a pull starter knob. probably early moggy minors too.

As did my A40 Somerset. Once, whilst teaching an inept friend to drive,
he stalled at a junction. In a panic, he pulled the starter knob so hard,
the cable came off the solenoid. To my amazement, he just kept pulling,
until the whole of the inner came out. I laughed so much that I was
unable to tell him what to do!

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[Tim+]

Not seen one of those. I do remember starter buttons and stater pedals
though.

Tim

[Gareth Magennis]

"Mrcheerful" wrote in message news:hlwKu.16911$0F.1...@fx35.am4...

My Parents' Ford Consol had one of those. And a column gear change. And an
umbrella handbrake. And a front bench seat.

I never managed to get the valve radio working though.

http://www.thoroughbred-cars.co.uk/detail.php?id=209



Gareth.

[The Revd]

Starter handles?

[The Revd]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:24:31 +0100, The Peeler
<finish...@themoronicRevd.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:41:21 -0800, The Rectum, the resident psychopath of
>sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, FAKING his time zone again,
>farted:

>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> my A35 had a pull starter knob. probably early moggy minors too.
>>>
>>>Not seen one of those. I do remember starter buttons and stater pedals
>>>though.
>>
>> Starter handles?
>

>They'd need, to sew, up my Grik anus to make, ME shut up, eh, innit The Rectum? <BG>

They, WOULD anus! <GB>

[critcher]

critcher said..........
see, I can't stop.

[alan]

On 10/02/2014 20:03, Mrcheerful wrote:

>

> First thought for your symptoms would usually be crank sensor rather
> than fuel.

Touch wood, fingers crossed, a replacement crankshaft sensor seems to
have cured the problem - albeit the original fault was somewhat
intermittent.
I have started the engine at least 100 times at all temperatures and
after a couple of 30 minute runs. It now always starts on the first turn
of the key without a failure.

I have to thank the Ford designers for making the job extremely fiddly
by placing the mounting bolt in the most inaccessible position they
could think of. I had to use a 1/4 inch drive socket with an allen key
in the drive end and then just undo the bolt a quarter turn before
repositioning. Just rotating the sensor by 180 degrees would have made
it a 1 minute job. The old sensor shows around 400 Ohms both cold and
hot (as does the new sensor) so its not open circuit. It wasn't tested
dynamically as at the time as I didn't have a helper to crank the engine
whilst laying under the car.

As the sensor is magnetic I wonder if the thin film of contaminants on
the old sensor contained metallic dust from 100,000 miles of engine wear?

[Mrcheerful]

I am pleased it is fixed. As to the contaminants I had a Focus (30k
miles) come in with a cam sensor fault showing, I cleaned the sensor and
the fault has not recurred in several years, so you may be right about
metal particles.

[harvey...@googlemail.com]

I currently have the exact fault alan describe in the original post, i put my car in for a diagnostic check which was inconclusive, my garage suspects a fault with the ECU which they informed me would have to be sent for checks leaving me without a car for an estimated 5 days which would cause me much inconvenience. I asked them to replace the Camshaft sensor without doing anything else and sadly have to report that this has not cleared the fault, had to sit for 10 minutes after i stopped on the way home to wait fot the car the car to cool down before it would restart and the Engine systems fault message/light were both displayed. I drove the car home the last mile with no effects of a system fault or lack of performance. Not sure what to do next a i totally rely on my car and to lose it for a week will be a right pain. Glad i tried Alan's suggestion as it hasn't cost too much to replace the sensor but in case anyone else has this problem maybe i have helped them save their money.

[Mrcheerful]

On 05/09/2014 21:43, harvey...@googlemail.com wrote:
> I currently have the exact fault alan describe in the original post, i put my car in for a diagnostic check which was inconclusive, my garage suspects a fault with the ECU which they informed me would have to be sent for checks leaving me without a car for an estimated 5 days which would cause me much inconvenience. I asked them to replace the Camshaft sensor without doing anything else and sadly have to report that this has not cleared the fault, had to sit for 10 minutes after i stopped on the way home to wait fot the car the car to cool down before it would restart and the Engine systems fault message/light were both displayed. I drove the car home the last mile with no effects of a system fault or lack of performance. Not sure what to do next a i totally rely on my car and to lose it for a week will be a right pain. Glad i tried Alan's suggestion as it hasn't cost too much to replace the sensor but in case anyone else has this problem maybe i have helped them save their money.

>

crank (not cam sensor) sensor is usually the hot cut out/won't start
till its cool) fault.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <MMqOv.167914$dz3....@fx20.am4>,

Far more likely for a position sensor to be effected by heat than the ECU,
IMHO, especially if it's a hall effect type.

But the ECU costs more so must be faulty.

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mrcheerful]

Also, crank sensor will stop the car, while cam sensor won't (it just
does not run so well), crank sensor does not always show up as a fault
code either.

[alan_m]

+1 Crank sensor. On my 2001 Focus it's very close to where the dip-stick
tube enters the engine block. It's not the camshaft sensor at the top
of the engine.

I found it very fiddly to get out/in as Ford have put the bolt the wrong
side of the sensor but it is DIY if you have a spare half hour.
I used the correct size socket from a 1/4 inch drive socket set on the
bolt but with an allen/hex key to turn it.

See second to last post in
<http://autoforums.carjunky.com/Automotive_Repair_C1/Engine_Troubles_F16/2002_Ford_Focus_Hard_to_Start_P80997/>

or

http://preview.tinyurl.com/mtu87y9




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[alan_m]

On 06/09/2014 07:55, Mrcheerful wrote:

>
> Also, crank sensor will stop the car, while cam sensor won't (it just
> does not run so well), crank sensor does not always show up as a fault
> code either.

On my 2001 focus when I had the same fault (crank shaft sensor) no fault
codes were seen even when checking in the time between the engine being
warm and not starting and it running OK. On some occasions constantly
trying to start the engine would take out the fuel pump fuse (in the
fuse box under the bonnet).



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[alan_m]

On 06/09/2014 09:25, alan_m wrote:

> +1 Crank sensor. On my 2001 Focus it's very close to where the dip-stick
> tube enters the engine block. It's not the camshaft sensor at the top
> of the engine.
>
> I found it very fiddly to get out/in as Ford have put the bolt the wrong
> side of the sensor but it is DIY if you have a spare half hour.
> I used the correct size socket from a 1/4 inch drive socket set on the
> bolt but with an allen/hex key to turn it.

http://admac.myzen.co.uk/socket/

>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/mtu87y9

On my Focus 2001 I can hear the fuel pump priming just before starting
the car (radio off and in a quiet location). When I had the warm/hot
start fault the fuel pump wouldn't prime up. If waiting for the car to
cool down and I heard the pump priming it would always start without
problems. Once started there were no further problems with driving
performance. With reference to the above link, a faulty crank shaft
sensor doesn't report the correct condition to the ECU and as a result
no fuel pump operation on start-up (first sentence in the description of
start-up sequence).

[Mrcheerful]

I found an interesting one the other day on an 03 focus 1.6. It just
stopped one day, turned out to be the fuel pump, a wire inside the tank
had failed, it was not practical to repair so it got a new pump, which
was not too terrible in price.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <heyOv.254489$KL.1...@fx19.am4>,

Mrcheerful <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Also, crank sensor will stop the car, while cam sensor won't (it just
> does not run so well), crank sensor does not always show up as a fault
> code either.

I don't know the Focus, but on my elderly BMW E39, a faulty crank sensor
doesn't stop it. It uses the cam position one for a limp home mode. Fixed
ignition timing, so well down on power.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

[harvey...@googlemail.com]

Sorry i meant to write, i had the crankshaft position sensor replace not camshaft sensor, i also noticed that if i sit in my car with the ignition turn to position 2 (not starting just switching the electrics on) after about 5/10 minutes the car will not start even though the engine is cold. It seems once the electrics are warm the car will not start. Maybe an electrical component goes open circuit preventing the ignition from firing. Any coils to look out for?

[Mrcheerful]

On 06/09/2014 11:34, harvey...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Sorry i meant to write, i had the crankshaft position sensor replace not camshaft sensor, i also noticed that if i sit in my car with the ignition turn to position 2 (not starting just switching the electrics on) after about 5/10 minutes the car will not start even though the engine is cold. It seems once the electrics are warm the car will not start. Maybe an electrical component goes open circuit preventing the ignition from firing. Any coils to look out for?
>

ignition coil is a common petrol focus fault, but it usually lets go on
two cylinders first, later ones have individual coil packs

[Andy Cap]

On 09/06/2014 10:05 AM, Mrcheerful wrote:

>
> I found an interesting one the other day on an 03 focus 1.6. It just
> stopped one day, turned out to be the fuel pump, a wire inside the tank
> had failed, it was not practical to repair so it got a new pump, which
> was not too terrible in price.

My Rover 25 became difficult to start, taking several spins before it
would fire up. Once going though, it ran fine. After lots of fiddling I
settled on the fuel pump, bought one on Ebay and my local guy fitted it
for me and it's been fine ever since. The pump wasn't the cheapest
available @ �45 IIRC.

Andy C

[allenl...@gmail.com]

Had same problem, took out crank sensor cleaned, put back problem solved

[hitra.k...@gmail.com]

I have the same problem like author. Position sensor is changed, id doesn't help. Some one found how to solve this problem? this is problem with 66kw, 2000yer diesel engine

[Fredxxx]

What author? This is a news/usegroup.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

- If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context.

[alan_m]

Possibly replying to one of my posts or a similar follow-up made 2014
which, in the normal way, disappeared from our news servers a few weeks
afterwards.

Both of the relevant posts referred to a UK petrol model. A diesel
model is likely to have a different set of solutions for not starting
when warm.

[Bob Cullen]

replying to alan, Bob Cullen wrote:
To many petrolheads will give unbelievable answers (some correct) but always
start with the easy stuff. No1 change the key!!! My wife had a full service,
diagnostics checks everything, new battery, fuel filter etc but nothing
worked. Then some young lad said try your spare key, it worked first time. It
was the key, the sometimes just lose their programming, simples.

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for full context, visit http://www.motorsforum.com/maintenance-uk/punto-annoyance-47689-.htm

[iraian...@gmail.com]

Could be the ignition relay sensor it's a fault with the relay thatbisnt picked up via diagnostic testing