Ecoflow Ionizer
JAT
It uses some form of magnetic field and is supposed to save fuel, reduce
emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic converters and
spark plugs. It clips onto the fuel line and can apparently be fitted in
seconds. Further details can be found at www.pa-network.com. I was just
wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this should work?
Alex
J.L.Ellison
JAT <alex_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37c7...@195.34.192.13...
> Has anyone come across a device called an ecoflow ionizer fuel
conditioner.
> It uses some form of magnetic field and is supposed to save fuel,
reduce
> emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic
converters and
> spark plugs. It clips onto the fuel line and can apparently be
fitted in
> wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this
should work?
>
99.99999999999999% certain that it doesn't work.
If the makers can PROVE I'm wrong then publish your INDEPENDENT test
results,to this news group, and I will withdraw my remarks made to
this news group.
--
__
J.L.Ellison. Location;
West Sussex. United Kingdom.
E_mail sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com
Please remove the SPAM BLOCKER before reply.
Thank you.
Samuel Leung
Does petrol (Hyrdocarbons) have any magnectic properties?? I don't think so.
They are just expensive magnets which does nothing for fuel. These devices
just make you think the device is working...placebo.
Brian
JAT wrote in message <37c7...@195.34.192.13>...
>Has anyone come across a device called an ecoflow ionizer fuel conditioner.
>It uses some form of magnetic field and is supposed to save fuel, reduce
>emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic converters and
>spark plugs. It clips onto the fuel line and can apparently be fitted in
>seconds. Further details can be found at www.pa-network.com. I was just
>wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this should work?
>
>Alex
>
>
Andy
If they did what they said for such a small amount, why don't manufacturers
fit them in the first place. You'll probably improve all with a lighter
right foot!!
Guy King
from "JAT" <alex_t...@hotmail.com> contains these words:
> I was just wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this should > work?
They do exactly what they were designed to do...put load of gullible
people's money into other people's pockets.
Car manufacturers are desperate to increase economy as it helps them
sell cars and in some areas helps them with corporate taxes. If these
gimmicks made even a small difference then trust me...they would be
fitted as standard.
I'm not saying that maunfacturers are perfect or the nothing they do
can be improved upon...but this sort if thing is just daft.
--
| |\_/|
Guy King |~~(o o) Never put off till
Hounslow, Middlesex | /=(Y)= tomorrow what you can
guy....@zetnet.co.uk |( leave till the day after.
www.users.zetnet.co.uk/gking/ | \
Guy King
from "Andy" <bri...@freeuk.com> contains these words:
> You'll probably improve all with a lighter
> right foot!!
If yo uwant to spend your money, spend it on a two hours "cheap
driving" lesson with me (I'm an ADI). IT'll keep paying for itself
for years, and you don't have to unbolt it from car to car. You can
even copy it endlessly and teach your friends.
Graham
wrote:
>Has anyone come across a device called an ecoflow ionizer fuel conditioner.
>It uses some form of magnetic field and is supposed to save fuel, reduce
>emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic converters and
>spark plugs. It clips onto the fuel line and can apparently be fitted in
>seconds. Further details can be found at www.pa-network.com. I was just
>wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this should work?
>
>Alex
>
<joke>
Of cause they work, thats why fuel injection is so efficient, its got
an electro magnet inside the injector..........
</joke>
Regards,
Graham
Visit http://www.hglmotors.co.uk - new site
The uk.rec.cars.maintenance FAQ
http://www.motors.freeuk.com/faq/index.htm
John Bain
> Has anyone come across a device called an ecoflow ionizer fuel
conditioner.
> It uses some form of magnetic field and is supposed to save fuel,
reduce
> emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic
converters and
> wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this should
work?
The science behind these devices is not yet understood, but there was
an article in Land Rover Monthly in July 1999 that ran a 4000 mile test
on their own vehicle and this gave a 15% fuel saving from 12mpg to
13.9mpg.
One suggestion is that the magnetic field causes a better mix of air
and fuel and gives a more complete combustion. Magnets have a lot of
effects which have are not understood.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>is supposed to save fuel, reduce emissions, increase torque and improve
>the life of catalytic converters and spark plugs.
You forgot it also improves your general health, makes you
irresistible to women, turns grey hair black, tones muscles and makes
you 30" taller. Not to mention improving digestion and clearing up
embarrassing skin conditions.
They don't work. I once had one fitted (already) to a Carlton I got
second hand. Purely out of curiosity I left it on for 6 months and
recorded fuel consumption, took it off and continued so to do - there
was no effect. Mind you it came in really useful afterwards for
picking steel swarf and odd nuts and bolts off the workshop floor.
--
Peter Parry. 01442 212597 0973 269132 fax 01442 212676
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk Please note - new fax no.
Guy King
from pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk (Peter Parry) contains these words:
> Mind you it came in really useful afterwards for
> picking steel swarf and odd nuts and bolts off the workshop floor.
Handy for getting keys out of drains too.
Flash Harry
conditioner.
reduce
> emissions, increase torque and improve the life of catalytic
converters and
fitted in
just
> wondering if there was any valid reason why a device like this
should work?
They work a treat. I've fitted one to my 850 Mini. It does 130mph,
95mpg, 0 to 60 in six seconds, and the exhaust fumes smell like Chanel
No. 5.
The best tenner I ever spent.
Dave Plowman
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> One suggestion is that the magnetic field causes a better mix of air
> and fuel and gives a more complete combustion. Magnets have a lot of
> effects which have are not understood.
> Best wishes
> John Bain
> UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
True. Haven't professional headphones got *very* powerful magnets?
--
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Peter Parry
>The science behind these devices is not yet understood,
On the contrary it's well understood - there isn't any - they don't
work.
>but there was
>an article in Land Rover Monthly in July 1999 that ran a 4000 mile test
>on their own vehicle and this gave a 15% fuel saving from 12mpg to
>13.9mpg.
How come none of these test are EVER carried out on a properly
instrumented test bed? Just think what the value of an objective
report showing they worked by an independent test house.
Now why hasn't anyone ever done this? It's not all that expensive,
certainly when compared with the potential publicity and sales. I
really can't think why - does anyone know?
>Magnets have a lot of effects which have are not understood.
Yes - they can be used to drag five pound notes out of unsuspecting
wallets from great ranges.
Guy King
from John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> contains these words:
> The science behind these devices is not yet understood, but there was
> an article in Land Rover Monthly in July 1999 that ran a 4000 mile test
> on their own vehicle and this gave a 15% fuel saving from 12mpg to
> 13.9mpg.
> One suggestion is that the magnetic field causes a better mix of air
> and fuel and gives a more complete combustion. Magnets have a lot of
> effects which have are not understood.
I would have to see a double blind test to be convinced. I "modified"
a friend's car once as a lark. I asked him to lend it to me for an
hour while I tried a new tuning trick I'd learnt. He fell for it. I
did nothing at all, but gave him some cock and bull story. He swore
that he had about a 15% decrease in fuel comsumption.
Most people are capable of driving more efficiently...and I suppose
this is what he did. Certainly when I told him his fuel use slowly
went back up to where it had been before.
Roger
The science behind these devices is not yet understood, but there was
> an article in Land Rover Monthly in July 1999 that ran a 4000 mile test
> on their own vehicle and this gave a 15% fuel saving from 12mpg to
> 13.9mpg.
> One suggestion is that the magnetic field causes a better mix of air
> and fuel and gives a more complete combustion. Magnets have a lot of
> effects which have are not understood.
I wonder if it was a brand new engine that was a little 'tight' at the
beginning of the test?
--
Roger
Web: http://freespace.virgin.net/roger.cantwell
ICQ: 40038278
*** Please remove 'james' from the Reply address ***
John Bain
> I wonder if it was a brand new engine that was a little 'tight' at the
> beginning of the test?
I think that would have been mentioned, this is a regular columnist in
the magazine who runs a monthly workshop series.
"It was way back in November we were offered a try of the new Ecoflow
device on the 4.2 V8 Defender we run. With nothing to lose we decided
to take up the offer and attach a gadget that claims to give more power
while making the vehicle more economical.
I had read about the Ecoflow in other car magazines, but dismissed it
as I do with most things that claim improvements at both ends of the
scale.
The fitting of the Ecoflow took just a few minutes, it is simply tie-
wrapped on to the fuel line in the engine bay. No wires or cut fuel
lines. The makers say that no change will be noticeable for at least
1000 miles, possibly longer on larger engines. We've now had the
Ecoflow on the vehicle for seven months, in that period of time the 90
has covered 4000 miles. As we sat down working out the figures we
noticed an improvement in fuel consumption of over 11 percent.
Getting only 12mpg before the Ecoflow kicked into action to give us
13.9mpg, was quite a welcome increase. The device will pay for itself
in less than three months at its retail price of £49.99p . A unit
this size copes with petrol engines up to 7 litres and all diesel
engines under 3 litres.
Other claims that Ecoflow make in their literature are; it improves
torque, improves plug life and reduces emissions. I have no reason to
disbelieve, or evidence to dispute these claims, but they would
certainly be very difficult to prove without spending lots of money.
Personally, I'm pleased with the simple basic fact that it saves money,
but with a reduction in emissions as well, it perhaps should be viewed
more seriously. The savings should be the same on diesel engines and
the unit cost for engines above 3 litres is £63.13."
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
Peter Parry
>Personally, I'm pleased with the simple basic fact that it saves money,
>but with a reduction in emissions as well, it perhaps should be viewed
>more seriously. The savings should be the same on diesel engines and
>the unit cost for engines above 3 litres is £63.13."
Except of course its complete nonsense.
1000 miles is only about 20 hours on a test rig. So why no
independent, instrumented tests? Why only anecdotal evidence?
These claims HAVE been tested, by ADAC amongst others, and in every
case properly tested have been found to be false.
Draw your own conclusions.
J.L.Ellison
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7qhdo0$71r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Roger <r...@jamesbond.co.uk> wrote:
> > I wonder if it was a brand new engine that was a little 'tight' at
the
> > beginning of the test?
>
> I think that would have been mentioned, this is a regular columnist
in
> the magazine who runs a monthly workshop series.
>
> "It was way back in November we were offered a try of the new
One question. Was there an advert in the said issue of the mag ?.....
Seen that sort of thing before, also tests like they do are
un-scintific and are worthless.
What you need is an INDEPENDENT test house (bench testing) report It
will cost but if these things are so good what have you got to lose,
it will pay for it's self over & over. But of course the report may
say that the product is Cr**, and it will be all over...............
Mike Bees
> Roger <r...@jamesbond.co.uk> wrote:
> "It was way back in November we were offered a try of the new Ecoflow
> ...
> 1000 miles, possibly longer on larger engines.
I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was some
magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
Mike
Dave Plowman
Mike Bees <junk...@not.wel.com> wrote:
> > "It was way back in November we were offered a try of the new Ecoflow
> > ...
> > lines. The makers say that no change will be noticeable for at least
> > 1000 miles, possibly longer on larger engines.
> I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was some
> magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
> wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
> look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
Something to do with the 90 day/ 1000 mile money back warranty?
Pete Lucas
Given the effects of "lead memory" on most engines, any damage
to soft valve-seats caused by running on unleaded with one
of these "catalyst" thingies would probably not show up for
quite a few thousand miles...
Convenient, eh?
//PJML//
John Bain
> I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was some
> magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
> wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
> look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
If you look at the results, particularly from the DTI tests, you will
see a gradual improvement increasing to a maximum. The inventor says
there are two effects, one is an engine 'decoke' and the other is a
gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
John Bain
> These claims HAVE been tested, by ADAC amongst others, and in every
> case properly tested have been found to be false.
Who is ADAC and where can I read about these tests and what was
tested. The DTI testing lab at Warren Spring tested this device and
found it did exactly what was claimed. I've read their report.
Graham
> "Mike Bees" <junk...@not.wel.com> wrote:
>> I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was some
>> magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
>> wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
>> look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
>
>If you look at the results, particularly from the DTI tests,
On the web? URL please or other reference.
Graham
http://www.hglmotors.co.uk - new site.
J.L.Ellison
> "Mike Bees" <junk...@not.wel.com> wrote:
> > I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was
some
> > magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
> > wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
> > look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
>
will
> see a gradual improvement increasing to a maximum. The inventor
says
> there are two effects, one is an engine 'decoke'
How doe's it do that then ?
and the other is a
> gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
And what the hell doe's that mean ?
I don't expect for one moment any one knows.............Just words.
Peter Parry
<sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
>and the other is a
>> gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
>
>And what the hell doe's that mean ?
>
>I don't expect for one moment any one knows.............Just words.
I think its associated with softening of the brain. Funnily enough
both the Broquet peddlers and the magnet crowd claim Warren Springs
found their devices effective. If so it must count as the single
most best kept secret in history.
Peter Parry
>Who is ADAC and where can I read about these tests
ADAC - Allgemeiner Deutscher Automobilclub (Germany)
http://www.adac.de/ the German equivalent of the AA/RAC
>and what was tested.
An engine, in an instrumented test bed, (several to be precise).
> The DTI testing lab at Warren Spring tested this device and
>found it did exactly what was claimed.
Funny, the AEA Technology (who took over Warren Springs role in 1994)
have no reference on their web site - could you supply the report
number or reference?
>I've read their report.
I'd love to - I've e-mailed AEA Technology with your claim and await
their comment.
J.M
> I think its associated with softening of the brain. Funnily enough
> both the Broquet peddlers and the magnet crowd claim Warren Springs
> found their devices effective. If so it must count as the single
> most best kept secret in history.
>
trust him.
Joe
John Bain
> On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:57:02 GMT, John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> >If you look at the results, particularly from the DTI tests,
Not on the web as far as I know, it's a 20 page report with lots of
diagrams and charts, so I'm not going to digitise it, but if you email
me an address, I'll post you a copy.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
>
> Graham
> http://www.hglmotors.co.uk - new site.
>
> The uk.rec.cars.maintenance FAQ
> http://www.motors.freeuk.com/faq/index.htm
>
John Bain
> How doe's it do that then ?
A more efficient conbustion will gradually remove carbon buildup in the
cylinder.
> >and the other is a
> > gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
> And what the hell doe's that mean ?
I don't know the mechanism, but the effect produced by the magnets
dissipates as the fuel goes down metal pipes. This loss gradually
decreases as if the metal pipes were being magnetised and once they are
fully magnetised, there is no longer a loss in the effect.
This effect can be seen in the DTI report. I am using the analogy of
magnetising the pipes to explain the effect. I do not think it is a
magnetising effect, but the effect exists.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
John Bain
> > magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
> > wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
> > look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
>
Oooh you are getting cynical Dave, comes of being a sound man. Most
distributors give a 12 months money back guarantee these days.
J.L.Ellison
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > there are two effects, one is an engine 'decoke'
> > How doe's it do that then ?
>
> A more efficient conbustion will gradually remove carbon buildup in
the
> cylinder.
How do you work that one out. Carbone IS the result of conbustion, how
ever efficient .....
>
> > >and the other is a
> > > gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
> > And what the hell doe's that mean ?
>
> I don't know the mechanism, but the effect produced by the magnets
> dissipates as the fuel goes down metal pipes. This loss gradually
> decreases as if the metal pipes were being magnetised and once they
are
> fully magnetised, there is no longer a loss in the effect.
You have just shot your self in both feet at the same time with one
gun and one bullet !
It CAN NOT WORK ON MODEN CARS, THEY HAVE _PLASTIC_ petrol pipes
>
> This effect can be seen in the DTI report. I am using the analogy
of
> magnetising the pipes to explain the effect. I do not think it is
a
> magnetising effect, but the effect exists.
A magnetising effect on what, then..........
Sounds more like a get out.
Peter Parry
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>Something to do with the 90 day/ 1000 mile money back warranty?
I seem to recall a market research report that said if you could
persuade people to keep something for over 30 days then the number
who would return an item even if it patently did not work fell to
about 5%. It's the same trick used by electronic water treatment
peddlars "12 month money back guarantee", almost everyone agrees they
don't work, but the return rate if people can be persuaded to keep
them for a few months is very small.
Not that this would have any influence of these good folk.
Guy King
from "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> contains these words:
> How do you work that one out. Carbone IS the result of conbustion, how
> ever efficient .....
Er, I hate to say it, but I'm with him on that one. If you have a
coked up engine and finally tune it properly it will /to some extent/
decoke itself as the burn in the cylinder removes more carbon than it deposits.
The rest of it is clearly cobblers. You only have to ask "Why don't
car maker fit them as standard" to see that. Even if they disguised
them so that no one would laugh at them, they'd still do it to
improve their fule figures...if it worked.
Dave Plowman
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> Oooh you are getting cynical Dave, comes of being a sound man. Most
> distributors give a 12 months money back guarantee these days.
Even if returned in a 'used' condition?
Ian Edwards
<guy....@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The rest of it is clearly cobblers. You only have to ask "Why don't
>car maker fit them as standard" to see that. Even if they disguised
>them so that no one would laugh at them, they'd still do it to
>improve their fule figures...if it worked.
But they do fit them as standard !
They're called 'electric fuel pumps'. The petrol passes through them,
between the field magnets, over the armature and brushes and out the
other side.
--
Ian Edwards - remove 'norubbish' to reply.
If you post from .hotmail or .yahoo, my spam filters will block you.
Mike Bees
news:Kmya+DAF...@redsquir.demon.co.uk...
> But they do fit them as standard !
>
> They're called 'electric fuel pumps'. The petrol passes through them,
> between the field magnets, over the armature and brushes and out the
> other side.
Brilliant! Now that I'm aware of that I've suddenly found that my
fuel consumption has dropped by 15%.
Mike
John Bain
> John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Most
> > distributors give a 12 months money back guarantee these days.
>
> Even if returned in a 'used' condition?
They are difficult to damage, the magnetic strength is guaranteed for
99 years and oil & muck washes off. If you applied a lot of heat it
might melt the casing, but you would probably damage the fuel line
anyway. We know that most people find they work and don't want to
give them back.
John Bain
> Carbone IS the result of conbustion, how
> ever efficient .....
In a more complete combustion carbon would burn to CO2
> It CAN NOT WORK ON MODEN CARS, THEY HAVE _PLASTIC_ petrol pipes
OK, sloppy wording, the metal in the fuel path.
Peter Parry
>The DTI testing lab at Warren Spring tested this device and
>found it did exactly what was claimed. I've read their report.
I've had an interesting conversation this afternoon with some
gentlemen from AEA Technology. The gist of the conversation was
that:-
a. Warren Springs, before it closed, carried out a number of private
tests of a variety of devices in various fields to conditions set by
the trial sponsor. These conditions were not necessarily vigourous,
comprehensive, statistically significant or ones that the scientist
there would have used had it been their trial. The reports were made
available only to the sponsors and were not DTI sponsored or
supported. It would seem they now wish they had never done them!
b. A considerable number of problems have subsequently arisen by
edited versions of these reports being used to ostensibly support
conclusions that were not always those which an observer reading the
report in its entirety would reach. In some cases Warren Springs
and later AEA Technology have had to resort to legal action to
prevent misrepresentation.
c. Confidentiality clauses in these reports prevent them being
released for peer review by AEA Technology and do not allow AEA
Technology to make detailed comments upon the results.
Whilst unable to comment in detail on the reports it was pointed out
that none of the staff who had read the reports had felt inclined to
fit one of these devices themselves :-).
It was suggested that buyers exercise extreme caution before parting
with their loot.
I understand Which? did something on these in Sept 94 (Page 16).
Anyone have access to a copy?
J.L.Ellison
> Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Most
> > > distributors give a 12 months money back guarantee these days.
> >
> > Even if returned in a 'used' condition?
>
> They are difficult to damage, the magnetic strength is guaranteed
for
> 99 years and oil & muck washes off. If you applied a lot of heat
it
> might melt the casing, but you would probably damage the fuel line
> anyway.
I supose if some one is enough of a prat to buy one thay would also be
enough of a prat to heat a petrol ( or Diesel ) feul line up !!!!!
>We know that most people find they work and don't want to
> give them back.
>
I don't think this chap knows what he is talking about, let alone the
front end of a horse.
--
J.L.Ellison
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > Carbone IS the result of conbustion, how
> > ever efficient .....
>
> In a more complete combustion carbon would burn to CO2
OK, but wouldn't just having a better state of tune be nearly as
good - for no real cost ? (that would be seen to when the car is
serviced)
I know, I know... there are some who don't get there cars serviced,
but they wouldn't buy your product would thay ? And if the engine /
isn't running properly they won't get the benifit from your product
even if it did work.
>
> > It CAN NOT WORK ON MODEN CARS, THEY HAVE _PLASTIC_ petrol pipes
>
> OK, sloppy wording, the metal in the fuel path.
>
They can't work that well then, not alot of Ferris pipe/components
used these days......
Guy King
from John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> contains these words:
> > It CAN NOT WORK ON MODEN CARS, THEY HAVE _PLASTIC_ petrol pipes
> OK, sloppy wording, the metal in the fuel path.
But...as JLE just said...at the location of the magnet there is
likely to be no metal in the fuel path.
John Bain
> But...as JLE just said...at the location of the magnet there is
> likely to be no metal in the fuel path.
If there is no metal in the fuel path then the gradual increase in
performance will not as apparent. The performance will be there
quicker.
On the big 14 litre diesel trucks, they fit a large diesel module
before the fuel pump and motorbike modules on the individual fuel
injector lines. They have the increase in performance much quicker.
John Bain
> OK, but wouldn't just having a better state of tune be nearly as
> good - for no real cost ? (that would be seen to when the car is
> serviced)
> I know, I know... there are some who don't get there cars serviced,
> but they wouldn't buy your product would thay ? And if the engine /
> isn't running properly they won't get the benifit from your product
> even if it did work.
The combustion is more efficient, and on a badly tuned car the increase
is more obvious.
hibberd
infavour of the product.
It contained the following
Copied from his webpage
Magnetic conditioning of fuel.
Magnetic units are clipped over the fuel line to any type of engine or burner. This
pre-conditions the fuel flow for more effective burning by passing it through an strong
magnetic field. The result is a 10% more effective fuel burn and an equivalent reduction
in pollutants. These units have been tested by the Department of Trade and Industry at
the Warren Spring testing centre in the UK and proved to work..
This technique is not new, it was used in the Second World War to help Spitfire and
Hurricane fighters use poor quality fuel. Electromagnets were used as powerful magnets
were not available then, but the principle is the same. Now that strong permanent magnets
are available, the process can be used on any fuel burning engine from a motorbike to a
central heating boiler to a steel works. Magnetic conditioning does not involve cutting
fuel lines, the magnets are simply clamped round the fuel line.
Magnetically treated fuel will burn hotter and more efficiently which also reduces
emissions from the burner
J.L.Ellison <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote in message
news:58hz3.7396$Ze2.2...@nnrp3.clara.net...
>
> John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:7qk0e7$3n0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > "Mike Bees" <junk...@not.wel.com> wrote:
> > > I'd love to see an explanation for that. Assuming that there was
> some
> > > magic magnetic effect on the petrol passing through the pipe, why
> > > wouldn't it start happening straight away? Surely that's going to
> > > look like poppycock (to put it politely) to any rational person.
> >
> > If you look at the results, particularly from the DTI tests, you
> will
> > see a gradual improvement increasing to a maximum. The inventor
> says
> > there are two effects, one is an engine 'decoke'
>
> How doe's it do that then ?
>
> and the other is a
> > gradual saturation of the metal parts in the fuel path.
>
> And what the hell doe's that mean ?
>
> I don't expect for one moment any one knows.............Just words.
> --
> __
J.L.Ellison
hibberd <hib...@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:7qrgi0$34uqo$1...@reader2.wxs.nl...
> Have you checked out Mr Bains web site...I did it explains clearly
to me why he is so
> infavour of the product.
> It contained the following
> Copied from his webpage
>
Industry at
> the Warren Spring testing centre in the UK and proved to work..
Were thay...........
><snip> This technique is not new, it was used in the Second World War
to help Spitfire and
> Hurricane fighters use poor quality fuel.
Prove that.......
Were are the INDEPENDENT test house reports, that's ALL you need to
provide to us with. Put the the Full documentation up on a wab site
and post URL here
Untill you prove your product works STOP (trying to ! ) selling them.
--
Dave Plowman
hibberd <hib...@wxs.nl> wrote:
> This technique is not new, it was used in the Second World War to help
> Spitfire and Hurricane fighters use poor quality fuel.
And, it is claimed, the Russians used tin for the same reason. Doesn't
mean to say it works, though. It's just a method of screwing money out of
fools.
BTW, could you set the wordwrap on you news reader to 70 or so?
J.L.Ellison
> Guy King <guy....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > But...as JLE just said...at the location of the magnet there is
> > likely to be no metal in the fuel path.
>
> If there is no metal in the fuel path then the gradual increase in
> performance will not as apparent. The performance will be there
> quicker.
>
> On the big 14 litre diesel trucks, they fit a large diesel module
> before the fuel pump and motorbike modules on the individual fuel
> injector lines. They have the increase in performance much
quicker.
>
Crap.
Unless he can prove me wrong, but as he won't publish any INDEPENDENT
test house reports I very much dought he can. It's just one big
CON.....
J.L.Ellison
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > OK, but wouldn't just having a better state of tune be nearly as
> > good - for no real cost ? (that would be seen to when the car is
> > serviced)
> > I know, I know... there are some who don't get there cars
serviced,
> > but they wouldn't buy your product would thay ? And if the engine
/
> > isn't running properly they won't get the benifit from your
product
> > even if it did work.
>
> The combustion is more efficient, and on a badly tuned car the
increase
> is more obvious.
>
J.L.Ellison
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:493c60376a...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <7qrgi0$34uqo$1...@reader2.wxs.nl>,
> hibberd <hib...@wxs.nl> wrote:
> > This technique is not new, it was used in the Second World War to
help
> > Spitfire and Hurricane fighters use poor quality fuel.
>
> And, it is claimed, the Russians used tin for the same reason.
Doesn't
> mean to say it works, though. It's just a method of screwing money
out of
> fools.
>
> BTW, could you set the wordwrap on you news reader to 70 or so?
>
John Bain
> John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:7qrhqc$ei2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > isn't running properly they won't get the benifit from your
> product
I'm not an engineer, this is not my field, but if an engine is badly
tuned, there is likely to be a poorer combustion and more emissions
caused by poor combustion. Fitting an Ioniser improves the efficency
of the burn. On a poor burn to start with there is more room for
improvement and that improvement is more obvious. On a well tuned
engine there is less room for improvement and the result is not as
obvious.
It is easy to check whether the device works, just do an MOT emissions
test, fit the device and run the test again. The only way that the
device can reduce the emissions is by a more complete burn of the
fuel. The test results show that reduction. If you want to see some
figures send me an address and I'll post them.
J.L.Ellison
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:7qrhqc$ei2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> And if the engine
> > > > isn't running properly they won't get the benifit from your
> > product
> > Please explain your comment, if you can.
>
> I'm not an engineer, this is not my field, but if an engine is badly
> tuned, there is likely to be a poorer combustion and more emissions
> caused by poor combustion. Fitting an Ioniser improves the
efficency
> of the burn. On a poor burn to start with there is more room for
> improvement and that improvement is more obvious. On a well tuned
> engine there is less room for improvement and the result is not as
> obvious.
>
> It is easy to check whether the device works, just do an MOT
emissions
> test, fit the device and run the test again. The only way that the
> device can reduce the emissions is by a more complete burn of the
> fuel. The test results show that reduction. If you want to see
some
> figures send me an address and I'll post them.
>
up....
What your saying is that the same benefit (if your product worked)
could be achieved by having the car serviced and tuned, which you
would anyway, thus saving the owner the wasted cost of your product.
I am still open to being proved wrong but you will have to provide
your INDEPENDENT test house reports, which you have not got as no
independent reports have been done or allowed.......
Guy King
from "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> contains these words:
> Better still put one or two of his magnets on his Hard Drive.
No, don't, it would make him post twice as often and 25% longer.
J.L.Ellison
Guy King <guy....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:199909050...@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <y_fA3.10580$Ze2.3...@nnrp3.clara.net>
> from "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> contains these
words:
>
> > Better still put one or two of his magnets on his Hard Drive.
>
> No, don't, it would make him post twice as often and 25% longer.
> --
space would leap by 100 gb once the metal case became magnetic......
Peter Parry
>I'm not an engineer, this is not my field, but if an engine is badly
>tuned, there is likely to be a poorer combustion and more emissions
>caused by poor combustion. Fitting an Ioniser improves the efficency
>of the burn.
No it doesn't - there is no objective evidence to support this
statement and no credible theory to explain why it might work.
>It is easy to check whether the device works, just do an MOT emissions
>test, fit the device and run the test again.
That of course is nonsense because there are too many variables for
such a crude one-off to make sense. Even a fully instrumented engine
on a test bed working into a dynamometer would require many runs
before relevant results would be produced. What is most telling is
that no peddler of these and similar devices (magic liquids, tin
"catalysts" etc) has ever commissioned such rigourous objective tests
(or if they have they have kept the results ever so quiet).
>The test results show that reduction.
As I understand it they show reductions no more than can be explained
by the nature of the test and the random variability one would
expect.
>If you want to see some
>figures send me an address and I'll post them.
Put them on the web site for all to see together with their claimed
sources. Bear in mind however that AEA Technology and Trading
Standards have successfully taken legal action in the past against
individuals and organisations misusing test results or selectively
quoting from them to deceive.
>
>Best wishes
>
>John Bain
>UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
>http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
>Surround Sound for Television
>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
--
John Bain
> I am still open to being proved wrong but you will have to provide
> your INDEPENDENT test house reports, which you have not got as no
> independent reports have been done or allowed.......
Email me an address and I'll send you a copy and you can explain it to
the group. Or find a distributor, try one and see what the results
are.
Catman
email it to me
if it's INDEPENDANT
I look forward to reading it
Catman
Tyger, Tyger, Burning Bright
Alfa Romeo 116 Giulietta 2.0l
J.L.Ellison
Catman <alf...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:37df092e...@news.freeuk.net...
He could put it up on a web site then every one can see it, all of us
as well as any one thinking of buying. If his product doe's what he
says then he would as it would be a marketing
tool........................
Peter Parry
>Email me an address and I'll send you a copy.
Would this be the so called Warren Springs report which the
successors to Warren Springs say quite unequivocally does not show,
demonstrate or prove any advantage by magnetic or other technology?
The one that they say "read the WHOLE report, not edited extracts and
make your own mind up"?
If you are offering an unedited copy of the complete original report
I would be very interested in receiving a copy.
Jon Harris
> On the big 14 litre diesel trucks, they fit a large diesel module
> before the fuel pump and motorbike modules on the individual fuel
> injector lines. They have the increase in performance much quicker.
Oh bugger, my bike doesn't have fuel injection and I'm now missing
out...
> John Bain
> UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
> http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
AOL? I should've guessed...
--
Cheers,
Jon.
-----------------------------------------------------
Jon Harris
Radio: 26WC001/G7JPH
Motorcycle: TRX850, GPz550
CB FAQ: http://www.whitecliffsdx.freeserve.co.uk
Email: tal...@whitecliffsdx.freeserveDEADWOOD.co.uk
(Remove the DEADWOOD to reply)
-----------------------------------------------------
Jon Harris
> This technique is not new, it was used in the Second World War to help Spitfire and
> Hurricane fighters use poor quality fuel. Electromagnets were used as powerful magnets
Oh lordy, this claim was used for the metal buttons that act as a petrol
"catalyst". Did SPitfires use both systems? Will Spitfires show us the
way to cure cancer and bring world peace?
Or is this just another con to screw money out of the feeble minded?
"No-one ever got poor selling crap to the masses" - A. Sugar.
How true...
Cheers,
Jon.
Jon Harris
>
> I'm not an engineer, this is not my field, but if an engine is badly
Really?
> tuned, there is likely to be a poorer combustion and more emissions
> caused by poor combustion. Fitting an Ioniser improves the efficency
> of the burn. On a poor burn to start with there is more room for
> improvement and that improvement is more obvious. On a well tuned
> engine there is less room for improvement and the result is not as
> obvious.
Oh i see so basically it's a good get out when we don't get a result
because "Your car must be so well set up already there is little room
for improvement"
Hmm I guess the proof is in the cost, how much for a couple of magnets
and what are they made of?
Jon Harris
>
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > I am still open to being proved wrong but you will have to provide
> > your INDEPENDENT test house reports, which you have not got as no
> > independent reports have been done or allowed.......
>
> Email me an address and I'll send you a copy and you can explain it to
> the group. Or find a distributor, try one and see what the results
> are.
I'd happily test one over a few months and report back if you lend me a
review sample.
J.L.Ellison
Jon Harris <tal...@whitecliffsdx.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:37D506...@whitecliffsdx.freeserve.co.uk...
> John Bain wrote:
> >
> > "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > > I am still open to being proved wrong but you will have to
provide
> > > your INDEPENDENT test house reports, which you have not got as
no
> > > independent reports have been done or allowed.......
> >
> > Email me an address and I'll send you a copy and you can explain
it to
> > the group. Or find a distributor, try one and see what the
results
> > are.
>
> I'd happily test one over a few months and report back if you lend
me a
> review sample.
> --
hope.....
Jon Harris
>
> Jon Harris <tal...@whitecliffsdx.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:37D506...@whitecliffsdx.freeserve.co.uk...
> me a review sample.
> And pay for the engine repair work if the product doe's not work I
> hope.....
I seriously doubt a magnet around your fuel line will result in vaste
damage to the engine.
Having said that a bike magazine tried "Spark Boosters" on a GSX750 iirc
and shortly after that the engine went pop. It turned out they were
simply a pair of nails arranged as a spark gap inserted into each plug
lead. They made no difference to performance and were constantly
affected by rain. In the end, so the theory goes, these gadgets were
stopping the bike firing on all cylinders properly and the resulting
borewash made the rings break up.
To add insult to injury, they were £15 EACH!
John Bain
> Oh i see so basically it's a good get out when we don't get a result
> because "Your car must be so well set up already there is little room
> for improvement"
Nope, the Landrover Monthly article was part of the workshop series and
they wouldn't have a badly tuned engine but they got 15% improvement in
fuel consumption.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
John Bain
> And pay for the engine repair work if the product doe's not work I
> hope.....
This is a new one, I thought you didn't believe it did anything.
Peter Parry
>Nope, the Landrover Monthly article was part of the workshop series and
>they wouldn't have a badly tuned engine but they got 15% improvement in
>fuel consumption.
Well within the random variation you would expect. That wasn't any
sort of objective trial.
J.L.Ellison
> "J.L.Ellison" <sca...@MAPSONfreeuk.com> wrote:
> > And pay for the engine repair work if the product doe's not work I
> > hope.....
>
> This is a new one, I thought you didn't believe it did anything.
>
No doe's not IMO that's why you should pay for any repair work, unless
you can prove your product was NOT responsible for the damage, i.e.
prove it works. Got those I.T.H reports yet.......
J.L.Ellison
> tal...@whitecliffsdx.freeserveDEADWOOD.co.uk wrote:
> > Oh i see so basically it's a good get out when we don't get a
result
> > because "Your car must be so well set up already there is little
room
> > for improvement"
>
and
> they wouldn't have a badly tuned engine but they got 15% improvement
in
> fuel consumption.
>
Dave Plowman
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote:
> Nope, the Landrover Monthly article was part of the workshop series and
> they wouldn't have a badly tuned engine but they got 15% improvement in
> fuel consumption.
Really? Try reading some road tests of cars fresh from the factorys test
fleet. Never any faults? And what's to stop the author of the article
being mistaken, out to make a quick buck,downright dishonest or just
having a bee in his bonnet? Wonder which one you fit into, since this
seems your only interest in this group.
John Bain
> Well within the random variation you would expect. That wasn't any
> sort of objective trial.
Over 7 months and 4,000 miles?
Agreed, it's not an objective trial, it is purely subjective, one
persons experience with the module. But that person writes a regular
column on workshop matters so he should know what he is doing and is
unlikely to be fooled.
Peter Parry
>Agreed, it's not an objective trial, it is purely subjective,
In other words - worthless.
>But that person writes a regular
>column on workshop matters so he should know what he is doing and is
>unlikely to be fooled.
I take it you don't have much experience of journalists then?
J.L.Ellison
> Pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > Well within the random variation you would expect. That wasn't
any
> > sort of objective trial.
>
> Over 7 months and 4,000 miles?
That's no time what so ever, how dear you call that a test !!!!!!
> Agreed, it's not an objective trial, it is purely subjective,
VERY much so....
> one
> persons experience with the module. But that person writes a
regular
> column on workshop matters so he should know what he is doing and is
> unlikely to be fooled.
>
BUT THE TEST WAS NOT LONG ENOUGH so how can you say that !!!
And yes he must be a fool if he thinks 4k is a long enough test to
write a 'test report'......
Why not publish your independent test house reports ??