Triumph Vitesse gearbox woes
Willy Eckerslyke
that my Vitesse's gearbox had become noisy in a similar way to those he
described.
Well I removed it at the weekend and stripped it hoping to find a single
obvious fault. Unfortunately, there wasn't one, just lots of general
wear and a few chipped teeth. I'd need to replace far too much for it to
be worthwhile so am considering my options.
Top of the list is an exchange box - circa 170 pounds from everywhere
except Rimmers (250 from them!). Anyone have any experience of
reconditioned gearboxes for this kind of money? Are they likely to be
properly done, or just cleaned up and fitted with new bearings? Also, do
they tend to include selector forks, etc?
2nd option is to risk a secondhand 'box. Anyone got one? It's for a Mk2
Vitesse with overdrive (which is fine).
3rd option is apparently to use Dolomite (or TR7?) internals, switching
to a J type overdrive. I've seen one advertised reasonably cheaply. This
would allow me to sell my original overdrive, possibly ending up about
even cashwise. Advantage would be extra strength, or would it?
4th option - similar internals from a cheap secondhand 'box - eg Marina?
Any thoughts or offers appreciated. I'd love to get this sorted next
weekend if at all possible.
I'd even consider buying a complete car to break if it was cheap enough
and not too far from North Wales. There's a Mk1 in Essex on Ebay with a
recon 'box, but it's a bit too far away and, starting at 180 quid, too
pricey considering how few other bits I could reuse. Mind you, if any of
you wanted to buy it I'd buy the 'box off you...
Dave Plowman
Willy Eckerslyke <oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> wrote:
> Top of the list is an exchange box - circa 170 pounds from everywhere
> except Rimmers (250 from them!). Anyone have any experience of
> reconditioned gearboxes for this kind of money?
Yes - I bought a cheapy for my P6 3500S once. Dreadful. There's more to
reconditioning a box properly than simply replacing the bearings and
synchromesh cones. El cheapos will use a mixture of new and secondhand
gears, and this will not be successful noise wise, and indeed won't cure
the original problem I had with reverse throwing out of mesh.
Eventually, I replaced all the wearing internals with new on the old box
which I'd kept and this was fine, but cost about 3 times that of the
're-con'. I'm afraid you get what you pay for.
In general I've found Rimmer's stuff pretty good - they have more of a
reputation to protect than Joe Bloggs.
--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Willy Eckerslyke
> In article <bbhnit$9iict$1...@ID-139649.news.dfncis.de>,
> Willy Eckerslyke <oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>Top of the list is an exchange box - circa 170 pounds from everywhere
>>except Rimmers (250 from them!). Anyone have any experience of
>>reconditioned gearboxes for this kind of money?
> Yes - I bought a cheapy for my P6 3500S once. Dreadful. There's more to
> reconditioning a box properly than simply replacing the bearings and
> synchromesh cones. El cheapos will use a mixture of new and secondhand
> gears, and this will not be successful noise wise, and indeed won't cure
> the original problem I had with reverse throwing out of mesh.
Damn, that's what worried me. I couldn't really see how they could do a
proper job for the money.
> In general I've found Rimmer's stuff pretty good - they have more of a
> reputation to protect than Joe Bloggs.
Hmm, I was assuming that they all came from the same place, but Rimmer's
simply added a greater mark-up. For Joe Bloggs read Fitchett, Canley
Classics and the like, i.e. other suppliers with reputations to uphold.
Robert Pearce
<oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
>
>Hmm, I was assuming that they all came from the same place, but
>Rimmer's simply added a greater mark-up. For Joe Bloggs read Fitchett,
>Canley Classics and the like, i.e. other suppliers with reputations to
>uphold.
>
--
Rob Pearce
Club Triumph Spitfire and GT6 consultant
The above views and opinions are mine, and do not necessarily reflect Club
Triumph policy.
Robert Pearce
<oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
>
>Any thoughts or offers appreciated. I'd love to get this sorted next
>weekend if at all possible.
For a Mk2 Vitesse I would definitely go with the Dolomite internals
option. You can get them from Canley Classics. My new Vitesse has one,
my old Vitesse and the GT6 both got the John Kipping version when they
were still trading under that name. The standard box, particularly in
overdrive form, wasn't really up to it.
Oh, by the way, ISTR you were looking for some Mk2 Rostyle wheel trims.
If you still need some I got a partial set with the new car, which is a
Mk1 wearing alloys so I don't need the trims! You can have them for
postage costs.
Willy Eckerslyke
> For a Mk2 Vitesse I would definitely go with the Dolomite internals
> option. You can get them from Canley Classics. My new Vitesse has one,
> my old Vitesse and the GT6 both got the John Kipping version when they
> were still trading under that name. The standard box, particularly in
> overdrive form, wasn't really up to it.
Thanks, it's nice to see this confirmed. I hadn't heard of it being done
until this month's Practical Classics feature. Am I right in assuming
that I'll need to change my overdrive for a J type if I go that route,
or will either type fit?
> Oh, by the way, ISTR you were looking for some Mk2 Rostyle wheel trims.
> If you still need some I got a partial set with the new car, which is a
> Mk1 wearing alloys so I don't need the trims! You can have them for
> postage costs.
Aargh!
That's very nice of you Robert, but I've just bought a set off Ebay and
very nearly paid a ridiculous amount for them too. Reasoning that alloys
would cost me 300 quid or so, I put in a bid of 101 pounds expecting to
get them for a lot less but willing to go that high if I absolutely had
to. I did, because some bugger bid 100! Then the seller amazed me by
saying he'd be happy to take fifty for them. What a nice bloke!
So if you need some pocket money, I'd suggest putting them on Ebay. They
really are becoming rather sought after as I've also been outbid on
several in the past.
Dave Plowman
Robert Pearce <classi...@bdt-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Hmm, I was assuming that they all came from the same place, but
> >Rimmer's simply added a greater mark-up. For Joe Bloggs read Fitchett,
> >Canley Classics and the like, i.e. other suppliers with reputations to
> >uphold.
> >
> To be honest, you're probably right given that list.
I've had one or two recon items from Rimmers for the SD1, and a stainless
exhaust system. And I've been very pleased with the quality. The steering
rack from them is the first one out of several (from other suppliers over
the years) which hasn't leaked slightly. As regards value for money, who
can say with a re-con? All I do know is few change a gearbox until it's
knackered so a proper re-con isn't cheap, as few of the parts can be
reclaimed - they all need replacing for a good as new job.
--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.
Willy Eckerslyke
> For a Mk2 Vitesse I would definitely go with the Dolomite internals
> option.
Ok, here's my latest update.
I've just bought a Dolomite single rail gearbox and overdrive with a
pile of bills indicating extensive reconditioning work to both. (They
also came with a second knackered 'box plus overdrive of uncertain
condition.) A quick side by side comparison this morning indicates that
my Vitesse bellhousing bolts straight on. Input shaft looks about the
right length, though I'll have to measure it properly to confirm.
Different number of splines so I'll need a new clutch plate.
J-type overdrive is about an inch longer so I suppose I'll need a
shorter propshaft.
Dunno where the gearlever will end up, but that's a minor concern.
So all looking fairly optimistic.
I'll probably try to recoup some dosh by selling my original D-type
overdrive + mainshaft (or complete knackered 'box) + propshaft as a
"kit" on Ebay if that makes sense.
Any advice on any of the above gratefully recieved again. Thanks to all
who replied earlier.
Anyone got a suitable propshaft going spare?
Cheers, Willy.
William Davies
Willy Eckerslyke <oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:bbhnit$9iict$1...@ID-139649.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Top of the list is an exchange box - circa 170 pounds from everywhere
> except Rimmers (250 from them!). Anyone have any experience of
> reconditioned gearboxes for this kind of money? Are they likely to be
> properly done, or just cleaned up and fitted with new bearings? Also, do
> they tend to include selector forks, etc?
Historically, both Canley Classics and T.D.Fitchett produce good gearboxes,
though no personal experience of either. There was a time when Canley (when
it was JK) was the only source of certain components as new parts, not sure
of the current setup,
Cheers,
Bill.
--
Rarebits4classics
.......just what you've been looking for
PO Box 1232
Calne
Wiltshire
SN11 8WA
United Kingdom
http://www.rarebits4classics.co.uk
Robert Pearce
<oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
>> For a Mk2 Vitesse I would definitely go with the Dolomite internals
>>option. You can get them from Canley Classics. My new Vitesse has one,
>>my old Vitesse and the GT6 both got the John Kipping version when they
>>were still trading under that name. The standard box, particularly in
>>overdrive form, wasn't really up to it.
>
>Thanks, it's nice to see this confirmed. I hadn't heard of it being
>done until this month's Practical Classics feature. Am I right in
>assuming that I'll need to change my overdrive for a J type if I go
>that route, or will either type fit?
I believe you do have to go J-type, but as the D-type was a little
marginal on the 2-litre engine I'd say that's worth doing anyway.
Willy Eckerslyke
> I believe you do have to go J-type, but as the D-type was a little
> marginal on the 2-litre engine I'd say that's worth doing anyway.
Good, as that's what I'm now trying to do.
Latest news is that the Dolomite single rail 'box I bought very nearly
bolts directly onto the Vitesse bellhousing. Only problem is the end of
the selector shaft, which sticks out of the 'box and is allowed for by
an indent on the Dolomite's bellhousing. I'll have a go at getting
around this by drilling a hole and rigging up some kind of top hat
shaped sleeve to prevent oil leaks. This will come alarmingly close to
the Vitesse clutch fork which I may have to adapt a little.
Another worry is a reply I've just received from Canley Classics saying
how very difficult it is to fit this box to a 6 cylinder car, mostly due
to the need to cut the propshaft tunnel and fabricate a way of mounting
the overdrive. This is a puzzle as my side by side comparison last night
indicated that the J-type's mounting studs would end up in exactly the
same position as the D-type's.
Canley also confirmed that the propshaft needs to be an inch shorter,
though careful measuring now shows me that the dolly box and o/d is
actually only half an inch longer. I'm hoping that my existing propshaft
will slide enough to allow for this. If not, it wouldn't take much to
move the engine forward by such a small amount.
All of which may sound a bit daunting, but hey, someone's got to try it!
Willy Eckerslyke
a conversation with Canley Classics and had it explained that what I
hadn't noticed is that the Dolomite single rail 'box causes the
overdrive to be canted over slightly. This brings parts of it, including
the speedo drive, very close to the chassis rails of the Vitesse, making
it an unfeasably tight fit. (I'm not even going to think of tilting the
engine slightly to compensate!). So it looks as though I'll have to
either swap internals about or pack everything off to Canley, pay 325
quid and end up with a very decent, strong, setup with a guarantee.
Hmm...
Robert Pearce
<oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
>
>Any advice on any of the above gratefully recieved again. Thanks to all
>who replied earlier.
You're right about the bell-housing fitting straight off, and the input
shaft length is also right I believe. The gear lever comes out about
right too (the single rail box was fitted to 1500 Spitfires). I think
the 1850 Dolomite clutch plate will fit a Vitesse clutch.
When I upgraded my old Vitesse to the J-type Kipping's box (3-rail) I
retained the original propshaft. There was enough adjustment in the
sliding spline to cope. However, the tail housing on the single rail is
different, so it's possible there's variance in the overdrive adapter
casting. An old John Kipping catalogue I have gives a 1 inch difference
in propshaft length for a Herald O/D conversion between 3-rail and
single rail. However, it shows no difference between a MkIV Spitfire
(3-rail with D-type) and a 1500 Spitfire (single rail with J-type),
which seems most odd.
J
Kippings - Mick Papworth
I'm sure if you're in any way doubtful of the quality you could go and have
a chat with Mick and or ask to watch the rebuild process - when last had a
gearbox rebuilt (not a Triumph) that's what I did
--
J
Plymouth to Dakar in two Triumph Heralds, yes really!
Visit http://www.team-michelotti.org and see how you can help.
"William Davies" <ne...@rarebits4classics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UqFDa.84$G6.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Willy Eckerslyke
> When I upgraded my old Vitesse to the J-type Kipping's box (3-rail) I
> retained the original propshaft. There was enough adjustment in the
> sliding spline to cope. However, the tail housing on the single rail is
> different, so it's possible there's variance in the overdrive adapter
> casting.
Taking Jon's advice, I've just finished rebuilding my original Vitesse
gearbox using the Dolomite internals and J-type overdrive so now have
something similar to Kipping's ideal unit. Except for one detail, that
is. I believe that Kipping/Canley use a "special" shorter mainshaft (I
lost track a bit when talking to them on the phone, but this would make
sense) and the D-type adapter plate, which is an inch shorter.
I've made do with the bits I had available (Dolly mainshaft + J-type
adapter plate), giving me a combined unit an inch too long and an
overdrive that's canted over by a couple of degrees, but am hopeful that
I can make it fit without _too_ much hassle (Canley said this was
difficult). I'll have to move the crossmember/overdrive support anyway
as it would prevent access to the J-type's filter cover, which, unlike
the D-type's is on the underside.
I reckon I can shift the engine half an inch forward without causing any
other problems, if I have to. Then hopefully, the other half inch can be
taken up by the sliding section of the propshaft without further
alterations.
Incidentally, it's as well that I listened to Jon and didn't try to use
the complete Dolly 'box as the layshaft bearings had failed, damaging
both the gear and the shaft, both of which were almost brand new with
bills to prove it! The spare Dolly box had exactly the same problem, but
to an even worse extent. Odd?
Luckily my Vitesse laygear and shaft were in good nick and the best bits
from both Dolly 'boxes were practically unmarked. Also, I ended up with
sufficient thrust washers and the like to get all the tolerances spot
on. Now just need a new clutch plate and selector fork and I'm in
business with, hopefully, a better and stronger set up for less money
than an off-the-shelf reconditioned unit.
> An old John Kipping catalogue I have gives a 1 inch difference
> in propshaft length for a Herald O/D conversion between 3-rail and
> single rail. However, it shows no difference between a MkIV Spitfire
> (3-rail with D-type) and a 1500 Spitfire (single rail with J-type),
> which seems most odd.
At a guess, I'd suggest the engine position changed to allow for this.
There'd be plenty of room on a four cylinder car, though why the Herald
was different is another matter. Availability of parts, perhaps.
Jon Tilson
> gearbox using the Dolomite internals and J-type overdrive so now have
> something similar to Kipping's ideal unit. Except for one detail, that
> is. I believe that Kipping/Canley use a "special" shorter mainshaft (I
> lost track a bit when talking to them on the phone, but this would make
> sense) and the D-type adapter plate, which is an inch shorter.
> I've made do with the bits I had available (Dolly mainshaft + J-type
> adapter plate), giving me a combined unit an inch too long and an
> overdrive that's canted over by a couple of degrees, but am hopeful that
> I can make it fit without _too_ much hassle (Canley said this was
> difficult). I'll have to move the crossmember/overdrive support anyway
> as it would prevent access to the J-type's filter cover, which, unlike
> the D-type's is on the underside.
Was the Dolly adapator plate okay with your Vitesse casing cos their is a
bit in the top that locates the
single rail selector shaft and gate plunger. Presumably with the 3 rail
selector mechanism and case you just have a blind hole in the adaptor plate?
I have a spare single rail od adaptor plate and some good 3 rail non od
boxes so I must copy uour efforts.
If you end up with a spare o/d mainshaft out of all this I'd galdly have
that off you for a small fee plus postage...
And another scrap set of "new" needle rollers...strange that! Did you get
new new ones that are right from Moss or did you re uses the old ones from
the Vitesse?
All the best
Jonners
Willy Eckerslyke
> Was the Dolly adapator plate okay with your Vitesse casing cos their is a
> bit in the top that locates the
> single rail selector shaft and gate plunger. Presumably with the 3 rail
> selector mechanism and case you just have a blind hole in the adaptor plate?
Yup. Doesn't look as though it'll do any.
> I have a spare single rail od adaptor plate and some good 3 rail non od
> boxes so I must copy uour efforts.
> If you end up with a spare o/d mainshaft out of all this I'd galdly have
> that off you for a small fee plus postage...
I have, but the one I didn't use has a very small mark on the bearing
surface (where it goes into the input shaft). I'm not sure whether it
can be trusted or not.
> And another scrap set of "new" needle rollers...strange that! Did you get
> new new ones that are right from Moss or did you re uses the old ones from
> the Vitesse?
I reused my old ones. They were new eighteen months ago and still looked
fine. All the Dolly stuff dates back to 1995 and had been sitting in the
fellow's garage gathering dust. So if it's the same problem as yours,
it's not a recent one. One both failures, the retaining ring had come
off. On one it was loose and had sharp edges corresponding with
sharpened outer ends of the needle rollers. On the other box, it had
disappeared completely.
Robert Pearce
<oss108...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
(I had written)
>> An old John Kipping catalogue I have gives a 1 inch difference in
>>propshaft length for a Herald O/D conversion between 3-rail and single
>>rail. However, it shows no difference between a MkIV Spitfire (3-rail
>>with D-type) and a 1500 Spitfire (single rail with J-type), which
>>seems most odd.
>
>At a guess, I'd suggest the engine position changed to allow for this.
It seems unlikely. The engine mounts are on the front plate and attach
to the suspension uprights. I don't think this ever changed[1].
>There'd be plenty of room on a four cylinder car, though why the Herald
>was different is another matter. Availability of parts, perhaps.
>
There's certainly room, but I don't think either vehicle used it. The
Herald variants are, obviously, both conversions, but AFAIK they're done
by simply transplanting the Spitfire bits.
[1] on production, anyway. My brother had a Mk2 with some very odd
engine mounting arrangement, but that was because a crash some time in
its life had left the engine front plate badly twisted.
Willy Eckerslyke
and everything seems to be working correctly. The overdrive comes in
after a second or two rather than instantly, just as the old D-type used
to. I do need to recheck the oil level, but unless anyone tells me
different I'll assume this is normal.
Predictably, there's a slight vibration from the propshaft - nowhere
near as bad as I expected, and only seems to occur at around 40mph. I'll
play around with Jubilee clips to see if I can improve the balance.
Yes, I confess that I shortened it myself, taking out one inch at the
universal joint end. The UJ end forms a kind of internal sleeve, making
it a doddle to keep it all central and providing a lot more metal to
weld to. I marked the prop up before cutting, to ensure that it went
back together in exactly the same orientation. And before the purists
all scream, I know this isn't supposed to be a DIY proposition, but with
a continuous weld of ten inches or so, I really can't see this being the
weakest point in the chain.
If anyone else is thinking of putting a Dolly 1850 'box + J-type
overdrive into a Vitesse, there are a couple of other problem areas.
The extra length (1") and bulk of the J-type makes the angled speedo
drive hit the chassis. I got around this by cutting a small nick an inch
long by half an inch deep out of the flat, inner edge of the chassis.
You could weld in a strengthening piece below it to compensate, but it's
hardly necessary.
No body modifications are needed as long as the Vitesse had an overdrive
before - the existing propshaft tunnel cut-out is plenty big enough.
You'll need to make up new gearbox mounts. I ditched the old one and the
plate it was sitting on. Removing the plate ensures easy access to the
J-type's filter housing which is underneath, unlike the D-type's which
is at the side. I made seperate mounts for each side, using a pair of
steering rack mount rubbers bolted to the chassis with U-shaped exhaust
brackets. Into these, I fitted short lengths of tube, welded to angled
steel which was bolted to the overdrive using the o/d to gearbox adapter
bolts. Simple but effective.
As I started with a three-rail Dolly 'box, I rebuilt it into my Vitesse
'box as a single rail unit. This allows the Vitesse bellhousing to be
used without modification. It also means that the gearbox tunnel cover
still fits.
A new clutch plate (GCP229) is needed as the Dolomite input shaft has
finer splines.
Why bother?
Stronger synchromesh. Larger input shaft bearing. Stronger overdrive.
Better availability and therefore cheaper. This conversion cost me about
160 pounds, providing me with a second, spare Dolly 'box (with knackered
laygear) + overdrive and releasing my old D-type overdrive + Vitesse
mainshaft for sale to anyone wanting to convert a non-overdrive car.
Compare this with the 170 pounds an exchange, recon gearbox would have
cost me.
Downside, a hell of a lot of work!
Doing it the easy way: by using a special, shorter mainshaft from Canley
Classics, the original D-type's adapter plate can be used. This is an
inch shorter than the Dolomite J-type plate, getting around the need to
shorten the propshaft, etc.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice. Jon, I'll email you a photo of
that mainshaft tip in a little while.
Willy.
Jon Tilson
> As I started with a three-rail Dolly 'box, I rebuilt it into my Vitesse
> 'box as a single rail unit. This allows the Vitesse bellhousing to be
> used without modification. It also means that the gearbox tunnel cover
> still fits.
rail box?
I'm confused now. I thought you put single rail internals in a 3 rail case
and kept the 3 rail gearchange...or did I miss something?
>
> A new clutch plate (GCP229) is needed as the Dolomite input shaft has
> finer splines.
>
True but only for single rail dolomites.
> Why bother?
> Stronger synchromesh.
The synchro cones for 3 rail and single rail are the same p/n and the hubs
are very similar.Think you are mistaking new for stronger.:-)
Well done anyway.
Jonners.
Willy Eckerslyke
>>Snip snip
>>As I started with a three-rail Dolly 'box, I rebuilt it into my Vitesse
>>'box as a single rail unit. This allows the Vitesse bellhousing to be
>>used without modification. It also means that the gearbox tunnel cover
>>still fits.
>
> Errr Dont you mean you started with a Vitesse 3 rail box or a Dolly sngle
> rail box?
> I'm confused now.
No you're not, I am. It's all turning into a blur.
You're right of course, I was trying to fit a single rail Dolomite box
into a Vitesse that had a three rail box.
>>Stronger synchromesh.
>
> The synchro cones for 3 rail and single rail are the same p/n and the hubs
> are very similar.
I take it you're referring to Dolomite 3 rail anmd single rail. There's
definitely a difference between the Vitesse 3 rail and Dolomite single
rail. The later cups are about 50% deeper. Just had a quick look at
Canley's website and they list two types - 148409 for early Spits and
GT6 I and II; and 150328 for GT6 III, suggesting it's down to age rather
than application.
> Well done anyway.
Thanks!
Jon Tilson
> No you're not, I am. It's all turning into a blur.
> You're right of course, I was trying to fit a single rail Dolomite box
> into a Vitesse that had a three rail box.
>
> >>Stronger synchromesh.
> >
> > The synchro cones for 3 rail and single rail are the same p/n and the
hubs
> > are very similar.
>
> I take it you're referring to Dolomite 3 rail anmd single rail. There's
> definitely a difference between the Vitesse 3 rail and Dolomite single
> rail. The later cups are about 50% deeper. Just had a quick look at
> Canley's website and they list two types - 148409 for early Spits and
> GT6 I and II; and 150328 for GT6 III, suggesting it's down to age rather
> than application.
be common between this and the single rail. I'll remeber this for future
reference.
Will be visiting Towyn later in the Summer so could relieve you of any spare
bits then?
Jonners
.
Willy Eckerslyke
> Will be visiting Towyn later in the Summer so could relieve you of any spare
> bits then?
Sure thing. I assume you mean Towyn near Rhyl rather than Towyn near
Aberdyfi?
I found this nutter's page earlier:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/lghrnrm/
All about modifying Triumphs, so purists better not look, but there are
some intriguing ideas there. I assume Datsun 180Bs are a little thicker
on the ground down under. Can't remember when I last saw one in this
country.