Fuel Injection for 4 cylinder Triumph Engines
James
Can anyone suggest a suitable method to inject a Triumph 4 cylinder
engine as fitted to the likes of a Triumph Spitfire/Herald. I am in
the process of restoring a 1967 Triumph and am thinking about
installing fuel injection rather than carbs. I am aware that there is
a possibility of using the old Lucas system as fitted to the 2.5 PI
but that this needs to be heavily modified.
Does anyone know of possible alternatives and where is the best place
to purchase the required parts from.
Many thanks,
Jim
ops
James wrote:
I would say yes it can be done - single point injection - have seen it
on a mini. Can't remember which system that was used but it worked.
r
Dave Plowman
James <bomb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I am aware that there is
> a possibility of using the old Lucas system as fitted to the 2.5 PI
> but that this needs to be heavily modified.
It would, and sorting out the fuel metering would prove near impossible,
IMHO. Better to use a modern EFI system that allows user programming -
they are made. But it will cost. That would still leave the difficulty of
making an inlet manifold to take the injectors. I suppose you could use
carbs for the throttle bodies and fit a TPS.
But all in all, a lot of work. Since you'll end up with something totally
non standard, why not simply fit a modern engine that already has
injection - like a Rover K Series, that would have been fitted anyway if
the Spitfire had continued production?
--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Chris Morriss
<bomb...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
If you get a manifold to take twin 40DCOE carbs, then you can fit
various makes of throttle bodies with EFI injectors.
You can then chose a suitable ECU. There's a lot out there! The UK
built M3D is well known.
I find EFI much simpler than carbs. (But then I'm an electronic design
engineer so perhaps I should!)
--
Chris Morriss
AWM
"James" <bomb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:761e720c.03092...@posting.google.com...
You can buy throttle bodies to house the injectors that directly replace
Weber DCOE carbs, although I suspect this might be over kill for the Triumph
engine Dave Andrews Robin Hodd site has info and links to the the Jenvey
and Emerald M3D sites which should give you the info you need. When buying
and off the shelf ECU it is important that the software for setting up the
injection and ignition maps is included in the price. If going this far I
would be tempted to ditch the Triumph engine and put a K16 engine in as it
would work out cheaper and the Triumph has a notoriously weak bottom end in
its longer stroke forms.
Robert Pearce
<mart1n@w'gong.apana.org.au> writes
>
>I would say yes it can be done - single point injection - have seen it
>on a mini. Can't remember which system that was used but it worked.
>
compromise solution, and with the Triumph engine having a proper
cylinder head it can take port injection.
(Incidentally, the late model Mini was fitted with Rover's MEMS fuel
injection system, and it did work remarkably well for such a problematic
engine.)
--
Rob Pearce
Club Triumph Spitfire and GT6 consultant
The above views and opinions are mine, and do not necessarily reflect Club
Triumph policy.
Robert Pearce
<cr...@oroboros.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>I find EFI much simpler than carbs. (But then I'm an electronic design
>engineer so perhaps I should!)
Personally I find carbs (SU type) much simpler. But then I'm a software
engineer producing fuel injection systems for a living...
Willy Eckerslyke
> Why on earth would you want to use single point? It was always a
> compromise solution, and with the Triumph engine having a proper
> cylinder head it can take port injection.
What theory do LPG conversions use? Just wondering whether a modern
conversion complete with Lambda sensor, etc., would do what he wants,
with the added benefits of cheaper fuel (as long as the duty is frozen)
and not compromising the car's originality to such an extent.
(Just thinking aloud, as usual)
Jon Tilson
"AWM" <not...@nowhere.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bki7li$do3$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> If going this far I would be tempted to ditch the Triumph engine and put a
K16 engine in as it
> would work out cheaper and the Triumph has a notoriously weak bottom end
in
> its longer stroke forms.
While I share some of the sentiment about the Triumph small four's weak
thrust it lasts perfectly well if the driver doesnt sit with his foot on the
clucth at lights and the correct anti drain oil filter is used. I have a
Spit 1500 with a well thrashed 120k miles up so I speak from experience.
As to a K16 well its nice in theory but having just changed a head gasket on
one twice and bought a set of engine bolts at 60 quid I couldnt be made to
comment on how difficult it is to make it drive north south from its usual
east west fwd layout. I know Caterham do it but how many spare ones of those
are you going to find?
Be fun to know though....as dead 214 K16's abound it might be nice to stick
one in a Dolly some day.
Jonners
AWM
"Jon Tilson" <jpt_n...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C0zbb.9177$qp2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "AWM" <not...@nowhere.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:bki7li$do3$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> > If going this far I would be tempted to ditch the Triumph engine and put
a
> K16 engine in as it
> > would work out cheaper and the Triumph has a notoriously weak bottom end
> in
> > its longer stroke forms.
>
> While I share some of the sentiment about the Triumph small four's weak
> thrust it lasts perfectly well if the driver doesnt sit with his foot on
the
> clucth at lights and the correct anti drain oil filter is used. I have a
> Spit 1500 with a well thrashed 120k miles up so I speak from experience.
> As to a K16 well its nice in theory but having just changed a head gasket
on
> comment on how difficult it is to make it drive north south from its usual
> east west fwd layout. I know Caterham do it but how many spare ones of
those
> are you going to find?
> Be fun to know though....as dead 214 K16's abound it might be nice to
stick
> one in a Dolly some day.
> Jonners
Loads of bits around for converting K16 to rwd, usual way is to use a Ford
Type 9 gearbox (heavy but easy to get) either via a special alloy
bellhousing or if a geabox from a 2.3 V6 Sierra is used by a conversion
adaptor. This type of conversion is popular in Marina, Morris Minor, Midget
and even MGBs -- which is odd because the A and B series engines were the
best bit of the Marina.
Other stumbling blocks are the clutch and flywheel and of course fitting a
spigot bush to the crank. Adds up to a lot of money but about the same cost
as putting throttle body injection on the Triumph engine.
I forgot to add the url for Dave Andrews home page which has lots of good
info on all sorts of car topics http://hometown.aol.com/DVAndrews/
ops
Robert Pearce wrote:
> In article <3f6c5a9a$0$95045$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net>, ops
> <mart1n@w'gong.apana.org.au> writes
>
>>
>> I would say yes it can be done - single point injection - have seen it
>> on a mini. Can't remember which system that was used but it worked.
>>
> Why on earth would you want to use single point? It was always a
> compromise solution, and with the Triumph engine having a proper
> cylinder head it can take port injection.
>
I referred to a mini not triumph as an example that was converted.
It was Jap car that the system came from for a start. It was much
simpler than multi point to fit to the mini (as you have kindly pointed
out triumph heads are of different design) - it was a toy thing to do at
the time.
In other words - there doesn't seem much of a problem fitting fuel
injection and having it work, single or multi, which ever suits the car
and the expertise workshop equipment etc. in fitting and map tuning.
> (Incidentally, the late model Mini was fitted with Rover's MEMS fuel
> injection system, and it did work remarkably well for such a problematic
> engine.)
I know that.
The whole project was carried out to be different and have a fuel
injected Mini. (not just a bolt on)
William Davies
ops <mart1n@w'gong.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:3f6ef77b$0$95051$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
>
> It was Jap car that the system came from for a start. It was much
> simpler than multi point to fit to the mini (as you have kindly pointed
> out triumph heads are of different design) - it was a toy thing to do at
> the time.
From a recent conversation, I understand that the throttle bodies from a
Triumph 2.5PI are more or less a direct fit, an adaptor plate being
necessary to enable the exhaust mounting studs to locate correctly. The big
difficulty is in obtaining an appropriate metering unit - available from
specialists in the US but at high cost. The original Triumph works
4-cylinder metering units were never produced in any great numbers at the
outset, the chances of finding one at autojumble are virtually nil....
Cheers,
Bill.
--
Rarebits4classics
.......just what you've been looking for
PO Box 1232
Calne
Wiltshire
SN11 8WA
United Kingdom
http://www.rarebits4classics.co.uk
Phil Howard
> Triumph 2.5PI are more or less a direct fit, an adaptor plate being
> necessary to enable the exhaust mounting studs to locate correctly. The
big
> difficulty is in obtaining an appropriate metering unit - available from
> specialists in the US but at high cost. The original Triumph works
> 4-cylinder metering units were never produced in any great numbers at the
> outset, the chances of finding one at autojumble are virtually nil....
Just a thought along the Pi route...would the Bosch K-jetronic injectors fit
the holes in the throttle bodies? If so, (and assuming you got the PI TB's
to fit), how about using the rest of a K-Jet setup? At least it's 20-odd
years newer, and there IS a wealth of knowledge about for it. Bits are
F-cheap (sure i've got a metering unit and some injectors you could have for
a beer fund donation).
NO electrickery invloved, just three electrical connections, IIRC (warm-up
reg, aux air valve via switch and pump).
Phil
J
"Phil Howard" <phil_...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:KTDbb.731$pz4.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> Just a thought along the Pi route...would the Bosch K-jetronic injectors
fit
> the holes in the throttle bodies? If so, (and assuming you got the PI
TB's
> to fit), how about using the rest of a K-Jet setup? At least it's 20-odd
> years newer, and there IS a wealth of knowledge about for it. Bits are
> F-cheap (sure i've got a metering unit and some injectors you could have
for
> a beer fund donation).
> NO electrickery invloved, just three electrical connections, IIRC (warm-up
> reg, aux air valve via switch and pump).
>
> Phil
>
I seem to recall there's a Vitesse running a hybrid Bosch/Lucas system set
up just like this with Lucas TBs and Bosch injectors.
Didn't the Triumph Sports Six Club's old Spitfire Technical secretary make a
Lucas injected Spitfire once upon a time? Can't remember his name, will have
to look it up - was it Karl (Carl) Swanson I think his name was (I could be
wrong!) Sorry I'm rambling now.....
I've never seen 4 cylinder Lucas injection, have seen Stag 8 port Lucas
injection parts - whatever happened to the Teclamit-Jackson system? That was
a similar technology to the Lucas system and found it's way onto Imps and
the racing machinery of the time. Mentioned in Vizard's Triumph book - last
seem in .pdf format here http://fot-racing.com/
--
J
10 countries in a 22 foot long stretched Triumph Herald? They said it
couldn't be done - they were wrong!
Believe - http://www.canleyclassics.com/10cr
OR how about Plymouth to Dakar in two Triumph Heralds, yes really!
Visit http://www.team-michelotti.org and see how you can help.
Dave Plowman
Phil Howard <phil_...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Just a thought along the Pi route...would the Bosch K-jetronic injectors
> fit the holes in the throttle bodies? If so, (and assuming you got the
> PI TB's to fit), how about using the rest of a K-Jet setup? At least
> it's 20-odd years newer, and there IS a wealth of knowledge about for
> it. Bits are F-cheap (sure i've got a metering unit and some injectors
> you could have for a beer fund donation). NO electrickery invloved, just
> three electrical connections, IIRC (warm-up reg, aux air valve via
> switch and pump).
But how do you set the metering correctly? The beauty of an EFI setup is
that it can be made to be easily programmed, although I doubt this would
be the case if using a stock one.
I wonder if those contemplating this sort of mod know what they're
letting themselves in for?
I changed the cam on my SD1 EFI for a slightly hotter one said to work
perfectly with my setup. And never got the thing to run properly. In the
end I reverted to the standard one. Injection engines run at much closer
fuel and ignition settings than older carb and points types, so any
variations in the fuelling etc requirements from standard can make them
just not run properly.
--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *
Pete M
basic truth is, a carb will meter itself, injection on the other hand can be
a right pain in the tits.
why not just go for Weber Alpha, I used it about 9 years ago on an Alfa V6
powered Talbot Sunbeam rally car. IIRC cost about £1800 and a day on a
rolling road. Worked well, and could be programmed to deal with all the
modern crap like air con, etc. Sounded fantastic too. 3.4 V6 with what
sounded like a perfectly set up six pack of Webers on.
--
Pete M.
Golf Gti (For Sale)
Liverpool, Great Britain.
"you can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"
Chris Morriss
Howard <phil_...@ntlworld.com> writes
The K-jet mechanical injection may be reliable, but it's horridly 'last
century' and as bad as the lucas system to alter the fuel curves. The
2.5 PI injector throttle bodies can easily be modified to take EFI
injectors. Get the Weber Alpha hold-down kits and fuel hose connectors
and do the job properly!
--
Chris Morriss
(Remove 'not' in return address to reach me)
Robert Pearce
Eckerslyke <oss108n...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
as a gas. Thus a single-point type solution is not unreasonable. In the
few cases of very high pressure LPG injection (keep it liquid until the
last possible moment) they are all port injected AFAIK.
Robert Pearce
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> writes
>
> But how do you set the metering correctly? The beauty of an EFI setup is
>that it can be made to be easily programmed, although I doubt this would
>be the case if using a stock one.
Actually the beauty of the K-jetronic is that it's almost like a
carburettor, and hence easy to set up. It's a mass air flow based
device, so inherently more tolerant than manifold pressure (or even
throttle position) based units, whether they be mechanical or
electronic. The metering is achieved by a profiled needle, and it's such
a ubiquitous device (fitted to both the Golf GTi and the Escort XR3)
that there is no shortage of experts out there.
Willy Eckerslyke
> In article <bkmcvq$395v7$1...@ID-139649.news.uni-berlin.de>, Willy
> Eckerslyke <oss108n...@bangor.ac.uk> writes
>> What theory do LPG conversions use? Just wondering whether a modern
>> conversion complete with Lambda sensor, etc., would do what he wants,
>> with the added benefits of cheaper fuel (as long as the duty is
>> frozen) and not compromising the car's originality to such an extent.
>>
> LPG is a different kettle of fish altogether, as it's (usually) injected
> as a gas. Thus a single-point type solution is not unreasonable. In the
> few cases of very high pressure LPG injection (keep it liquid until the
> last possible moment) they are all port injected AFAIK.
Thanks Robert, point taken. However, assuming that the original poster
wants to convert to fuel injection in order to make use of more
up-to-date metering technology, I'm still wondering whether an LPG
conversion wouldn't be just as effective a way of doing so for perhaps a
lot less money?
Dave Plowman
Robert Pearce <classi...@bdt-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually the beauty of the K-jetronic is that it's almost like a
> carburettor, and hence easy to set up. It's a mass air flow based
> device, so inherently more tolerant than manifold pressure (or even
> throttle position) based units, whether they be mechanical or
> electronic.
Well, my Lucas system uses an AFM, but it's anything but tolerant of
changed inlet manifold depression.
I'm not saying you're wrong of course, since I've not tried it. But
finding an expert who can set these things up could well prove difficult.
--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.
Jim
> up just like this with Lucas TBs and Bosch injectors.
> Didn't the Triumph Sports Six Club's old Spitfire Technical secretary make a
> Lucas injected Spitfire once upon a time? Can't remember his name, will have
> to look it up - was it Karl (Carl) Swanson I think his name was (I could be
> wrong!) Sorry I'm rambling now.....
> I've never seen 4 cylinder Lucas injection, have seen Stag 8 port Lucas
> injection parts - whatever happened to the Teclamit-Jackson system? That was
> a similar technology to the Lucas system and found it's way onto Imps and
> the racing machinery of the time. Mentioned in Vizard's Triumph book - last
> seem in .pdf format here http://fot-racing.com/
>
Thanks for the suggestions so far. Certainly something to think about.
I have to say I think I am tempted to give the K-Series engine a miss
purely due to the cost factor. Not only would I need to purchase the
engine, there is also the gearbox, drive train and diff to take into
consideration. Somehow I don't think that the diff that is currently
fitted would be too happy with the power from a Rover engine going
through it. Also I have spent quite a bit of money on a new Spit
engine which has been blueprinted etc, so I would be somewhat
reluctant to junk it. I do have the parts for the 2.5pi system which I
purchased a few years ago. I did have this reset for a four cylinder
engine after speaking to Carl the tech sec for the TSSC who had done
the original conversion. Unfortunately the metering unit/fuel pump
have seen better days and frankly it ran like the proverbial dog. It
is now running on 2 1.5 SUs which it clearly doesn't like. Presumably
this is something to do with the "hot" cam that is fitted.
Looks like it is either the EFI route or the K-Jetronic route then.
Dave Baker
>From: bomb...@yahoo.co.uk (Jim)
>Date: 23/09/03 16:25 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <761e720c.03092...@posting.google.com>
The carbs probably just want setting up properly on a rolling road.
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish,
unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though.
Dave Plowman
Jim <bomb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> It is now running on 2 1.5 SUs which it clearly doesn't like. Presumably
> this is something to do with the "hot" cam that is fitted.
> Looks like it is either the EFI route or the K-Jetronic route then.
If you can't get it to run properly on a pair of SUs, I don't fancy your
chances with injection.
--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *
Jon Tilson
>
> If you can't get it to run properly on a pair of SUs, I don't fancy your
> chances with injection.
>
I tend to agree but some people donbt get on with those either.
If you fitted a different cam and have a free flowing exhaust you will have
much too weak needles.
Have a word with the guys at Moss europe as a set of richer needles will be
known to them and available.
I have some in mine that went with the manifold but I cant remeber what they
are...AAQ maybe?
If you are anywhere near west london I'm happy to give it a go for you...
email me off list.
Jonners
ops
Jon Tilson wrote:
Or you can download WINSU for a play and see what needles.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sbeavis/winsu/winsu.html
>
Robert Pearce
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> writes
>In article <dl6CDHCS6zb$Ew...@jonah.huneausware.local>,
> Robert Pearce <classi...@bdt-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Actually the beauty of the K-jetronic is that it's almost like a
>> carburettor, and hence easy to set up. It's a mass air flow based
>> device, so inherently more tolerant than manifold pressure (or even
>> throttle position) based units, whether they be mechanical or
>> electronic.
>
>Well, my Lucas system uses an AFM, but it's anything but tolerant of
>changed inlet manifold depression.
>
back-calculate manifold pressure for transient fuelling and ignition
advance. This will put them back into the
totally-intolerant-of-any-changes category. K-jetronic doesn't bother
with transient fuel and relies on a conventional distributor for
ignition.
>I'm not saying you're wrong of course, since I've not tried it. But
>finding an expert who can set these things up could well prove difficult.
>
Well I can't say I've tried it myself, either, but there are a lot more
places claiming to be "Bosch Injection Specialists" (i.e. we know
K-jetronic quite well) than there are that admit to knowing EFi systems.
Robert Pearce
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> writes
>In article <761e720c.03092...@posting.google.com>,
> Jim <bomb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> It is now running on 2 1.5 SUs which it clearly doesn't like. Presumably
>> this is something to do with the "hot" cam that is fitted.
>
>> Looks like it is either the EFI route or the K-Jetronic route then.
>
>If you can't get it to run properly on a pair of SUs, I don't fancy your
>chances with injection.
>
got the TR6 to idle properly on carbs with the wild cam they used on
Injection models. The port throttles help quite a lot on that front.