Triumph Herald Overdrive
Neil Evensen
don't know much about them and I doubt I'd be able to do the work myself,
but I do have a few questions.
Firstly, what exactly is it and where does it go?
They seem to be quite expensive from Rimmer bros. or John Kipping and I
don't think they're doing them at the moment anyway. Is it possible to take
what ever is needed out a Vitesse? (There are a few going for parts in my
area.)
Also, how it would affect the value of my car? It's probably worth about
900ukp, so if I spent 300 to 400 on an overdrive, would it change the value?
Thanks,
Neil
Ian Johnston
: I've been thinking about getting an overdrive for my my '69 Herald 13/60. I
: don't know much about them and I doubt I'd be able to do the work myself,
: but I do have a few questions.
: Firstly, what exactly is it and where does it go?
It's an epicyclic gearbox (everything in line) which fits between the
standard gearbox and the propeller shaft. Normally it does nothing, but when
engaged it speeds up the output by a ratio of about 1.2, so the engine
speed goes down by about 16%. It makes little if any difference to speed in
a Herald, but makes it much more pleasant to drive.
The parts you need are:
1) A new output shaft for the gearbox, with the splines on it to turn the
overdrive input
2) An adaptor (casting) which fits between gearbox and overdrive unit
3) An overdrive unit
4) A modified propshaft (shorter, different flange at the front)
5) Different gearbox mountings
6) A slightly different gearlever to gearbox linkage, incorporating switches
to make sure overdrive only works in 3rd and 4th - and in particular that
it NEVER tries to work in reverse, as it has a little clutch which gets
instantly and expensively destroyed if you try it.
7) A right angle drive for the speedo cable
8) A switch, either on the gear knob (needs new gearlever) or on the column
(needs new flasher stalk housing)
9) Sundry electrics.
: They seem to be quite expensive from Rimmer bros. or John Kipping and I
: don't think they're doing them at the moment anyway. Is it possible to take
: what ever is needed out a Vitesse? (There are a few going for parts in my
: area.)
It's more trouble than it's worth, because the input side of a Vitesse
gearbox is different. Much better to get a Spitfire O/D box from a Mark III
or MkIV (not 1500) which had basically the same engine as the 13/60. Spitbits
and the Spitfire graveyard sell them, the latter for 250 quid including
propshaft (which is too short for a Herald, but you can use the front flange
with a shortened Herald propshaft.
: Also, how it would affect the value of my car? It's probably worth about
: 900ukp, so if I spent 300 to 400 on an overdrive, would it change the value?
May put it up by a hundred quid or so, but that's about it. To be honest,
though overdrives are wonderful on Heralds, if you're at the 900 quid level
there is almost certainly other stuff you should be doing first. My daily
driver at the moment is a 12/50, and I'm only going to put an overdrive in it
soon, having dealt with the chassis (all new outriggers) and body (repair
and respray) first. If you have a long term commitment to the car, or you are
happy to lose a few hundred quid for some added comfort, or you expect to own
other Heralds later and could reuse the O/D box later, though, go for it.
Ian
William Davies
>
> Much better to get a Spitfire O/D box from a Mark III
> or MkIV (not 1500) which had basically the same engine as the 13/60. Spitbits
> and the Spitfire graveyard sell them, the latter for 250 quid including
> propshaft (which is too short for a Herald, but you can use the front flange
> with a shortened Herald propshaft.
You can use the gearbox from ANY Spitfire other than the 1500. You can
use the propshaft from a non-overdrive Vitesse, as this is the correct
length, but you might need to change the flanges to match those of the
Herald. The 1500 box will go in, but there are other complications with
the clutch assembly - not really worth the effort, and it's not such a
nice box anyway - the propshaft will have to be specially converted for
this application too, as the gearbox is longer.
> May put it up by a hundred quid or so, but that's about it. To be honest,
> though overdrives are wonderful on Heralds, if you're at the 900 quid level
> there is almost certainly other stuff you should be doing first. My daily
> driver at the moment is a 12/50, and I'm only going to put an overdrive in it
> soon, having dealt with the chassis (all new outriggers) and body (repair
> and respray) first. If you have a long term commitment to the car, or you are
> happy to lose a few hundred quid for some added comfort, or you expect to own
> other Heralds later and could reuse the O/D box later, though, go for it.
The Overdrive will make it a much more pleasant car for any longer
journeys, but as Ian says, make sure you're going to keep the car before
splashing out lots of money. And before you buy a second hand box, find
out who the reputable dealers are - there are some who are little short
of thieves! Join a club and ask the local membership, as these people
are never exposed in print, but will be known to the club members.
Hope this helps,
Bill Davies.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
This Message sent by:
^================^
/ \ William Davies
/ \ Total Triumph Enthusiast
__ __________________ __
/ \ ______ ______ / \ 1959 Herald 948 Coupe Y128
\__/ \ || / \__/ 1959 Herald 948 Coupe
| A \____||____/ A | 1959 Herald 948 Saloon
| = H H = | 1960 Herald 948 Saloon Export
=====U==============U===== 1961 Herald 'S'
\________________________/ 1964 Herald 1200 Saloon
| | | | 1969 Spitfire MkIII
|_| |_| 1973 Spitfire MkIV
& Half Share in 1959 Standard Atlas Pickup
The Original TH
main drive shaft and there may well be an extension tunnel between them.
You will also need a shorter prop-shaft.
There are also some electrical connections to consider, especially those
that activate the overdrive on gears selected, as a switch is mounted on
top of the gearbox. Generally speaking it's like having a higher gear
ratio on perhaps 3rd and 4th gears. This means that the engine is
running at a slower speed whilst still maintaining the same road speed.
It is ideal for cruising at constant speeds and provides for fuel
economy. It might change the value by about £200, as is a sought after
accessory, and is probably as rare as hen's teeth. Only when I
advertised one for sale I had umpteen calls and sold it the first day
the advert appeared.
In article <947356697.8358.0...@news.demon.co.uk>, Neil
Evensen <ne...@evensen.demon.co.uk> writes
>I've been thinking about getting an overdrive for my my '69 Herald 13/60. I
>don't know much about them and I doubt I'd be able to do the work myself,
>but I do have a few questions.
>
>Firstly, what exactly is it and where does it go?
>
>don't think they're doing them at the moment anyway. Is it possible to take
>what ever is needed out a Vitesse? (There are a few going for parts in my
>area.)
>
>900ukp, so if I spent 300 to 400 on an overdrive, would it change the value?
>
>
>Neil
>
>
--
*************************************************
Reply-To: Keith Bennett <trojan...@virgin.net>
Member of the Standard Motor Club (UK)
*************************************************
Ian Johnston
: You can use the gearbox from ANY Spitfire other than the 1500.
Yup. Silly me.
: You can use the propshaft from a non-overdrive Vitesse, as this is the
: correct length
Depends on the O/D. If it's a late MkIV box with J-type (we've had this
discussion: believe me, there were a few of these right at the end and I've
got two of them!) then it's a different length from the earlier boxes with
D-type O/D. John Kipping's catalogue used to have a useful section on
propshaft lengths, but it seems to have gone from the current ediion.
Ian
Robert Pearce
<troja...@virgin.net> writes
>The overdrive unit fits behind the gearbox, this will have an extended
>main drive shaft and there may well be an extension tunnel between them.
Strictly the mainshaft of an overdrive gearbox is actually shorter than
the normal one, but it also has the oil pump cam and different splines
and end piece. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "extension tunnel"
but it reminds me that nobody seems to have pointed out the need to cut
four inches off the front if the propshaft tunnel in the floor panel.
This is required to get the gearbox in, but needs to be replaced with a
screw down plate so that it still meets up with the gearbox cover.
--
Rob Pearce
(Former) Club Triumph Herald derivatives consultant
The above views and opinions are mine, and do not necessarily reflect Club
Triumph policy.
William Davies
>
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "extension tunnel"
> but it reminds me that nobody seems to have pointed out the need to cut
> four inches off the front if the propshaft tunnel in the floor panel.
> This is required to get the gearbox in, but needs to be replaced with a
> screw down plate so that it still meets up with the gearbox cover.
Robert,
I've never needed to remove any metal from the tunnel when performing
an Overdrive conversion, and neither did Standard-Triumph on the factory
produced conversions.
I believe the "extension tunnel" means the adaptor as we'd find it on a
Herald. The overdrive fitted to the Standard 10 (and Atlas) was mounted
around 14 inches behind the gearbox, hence the longer mainshaft in this
case. Those for the Standard 10 incidentally are incredibly rare, and I
was quoted a price close to 1000 pounds when I enquired about a second
hand unit to put in the Atlas!
Hope this clears things up,
Bill.
William Davies
>
> Depends on the O/D. If it's a late MkIV box with J-type (we've had this
> discussion: believe me, there were a few of these right at the end and I've
> got two of them!) then it's a different length from the earlier boxes with
> D-type O/D. John Kipping's catalogue used to have a useful section on
> propshaft lengths, but it seems to have gone from the current ediion.
Fair enough, I'll concede that! The length needed for a D-type
conversion is actually 46.5 inches, the Vitesse shaft is actually 47
inches, but has a sliding splined section which compresses to fit. Guess
who's catalogue I got THAT information from... :-0)
Ian Johnston
: Strictly the mainshaft of an overdrive gearbox is actually shorter than
: the normal one, but it also has the oil pump cam and different splines
: and end piece. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "extension tunnel"
: but it reminds me that nobody seems to have pointed out the need to cut
: four inches off the front if the propshaft tunnel in the floor panel.
I have two 13/60 convertibles and one 12/50 saloon at the moment. All have -
as original, as far as I can see - a rectangular cutout on the tunnel which
allows a J-type O/D gearbox to fit in with no further cutting. Perhaps it's
different with a D-type - I have been led to believe that the cut out was
needed for the Vitesse and therefore included in all back bodies for
simplicity. It's therefore probably not there on pre-Vitesse Heralds.
Ian
Ian Johnston
: Ian Johnston wrote:
:>
:> Depends on the O/D. If it's a late MkIV box with J-type (we've had this
:> discussion: believe me, there were a few of these right at the end and I've
:> got two of them!) then it's a different length from the earlier boxes with
:> D-type O/D. John Kipping's catalogue used to have a useful section on
:> propshaft lengths, but it seems to have gone from the current ediion.
: Fair enough, I'll concede that! The length needed for a D-type
: conversion is actually 46.5 inches, the Vitesse shaft is actually 47
: inches, but has a sliding splined section which compresses to fit. Guess
: who's catalogue I got THAT information from... :-0)
I had a feeling that cunning use of a splined propshaft came in somewhere,
but wasn't confident enough to say so. Thanks.
Ian
nobodi
Thanks.
Willy Eckerslyke wrote in message <3879A7...@mam.nospam>...
>William Davies wrote:
>
>> The Overdrive will make it a much more pleasant car for any longer
>> journeys, but as Ian says, make sure you're going to keep the car before
>> splashing out lots of money. And before you buy a second hand box, find
>> out who the reputable dealers are - there are some who are little short
>> of thieves!
>
>Too right, a neighbour of mine bought a non-running Vitesse for
>50 quid, stripped it for spares and flogged the o/d gearbox for
>250 quid without it even turning a cog!
>Mind you, I'll let him off as he then gave me the engine, which
>appears to be in excellent order.
>
>--
>Regards, Willy. | "Is there anywhere in this damned
> | place where I can get a decent
>ku.ca.rognab@801sso :liam-E | bottle of Bass?" Tennyson 1862
>
Anthony New
My 1969/70 MKII Vitesse needed a 4" square cut in the tunnel to fit the
o/drive box.
You normally need a complete gearbox and overdrive unit. Kipping's stuff
is good, but if you want to save money, look for a domomite 1300 gearbox
and overdrive - you may need the dolly clutch plate, too, if the gearbox
input shaft has 23 splines instead of the Herald's 11, though.
The wiring is simpler if you get a "J" type overdrive, BTW - no relay
needed!
--
Anthony
The biggest problem today is that people don't recognise
a reductio ad absurdam when they see one.
--------------------------------------------
Swap "no junk" with "co uk" for e-mail reply
Willy Eckerslyke
> >Too right, a neighbour of mine bought a non-running Vitesse for
> >50 quid, stripped it for spares and flogged the o/d gearbox for
> >250 quid without it even turning a cog!
> Can any of you help me obtain a hood frame for the Herald convertible ?
> Thanks.
I'll ask him if you like. After the Vitesse he managed to find
Herald convertible complete with wire wheels for 150 quid and
a very strange 13/60 convertible for 600. This one was on the
road and had clearly had the rear body tub restored to a high
standard with new lower wings and the lot. It looked as though
someone had then lost interest and had it resprayed in disgusting
orange 2-pack even over the rusted front bulkhead. Weird.
The Original TH
<w.da...@virgin.net> writes
>
> I believe the "extension tunnel" means the adaptor as we'd find it on a
>Herald. The overdrive fitted to the Standard 10 (and Atlas) was mounted
>around 14 inches behind the gearbox, hence the longer mainshaft in this
>case. Those for the Standard 10 incidentally are incredibly rare, and I
>was quoted a price close to 1000 pounds when I enquired about a second
>hand unit to put in the Atlas!
> Hope this clears things up,
> Bill.
custom propshaft I let go for 300 pounds! Only it was fitted to my
Standard Eight. It really didn't do anything for the Eight. Because the
car was suffering with a strange 'humming' noise. I was told that this
was 'normal' for a Standard. After removal of all the gubbins and a new
prop shaft fitted the humming noise had vanished! Also the car goes much
better without the damned thing! (So glad to see the back of it) Anyway
it went to Maurice Ford on behalf of a certain Peter Lockley!
William Davies
>
> So I've been done then, only the one I sold, complete with gearbox and
> custom propshaft I let go for 300 pounds!
I don't think you've been done, but I felt I was about to be.....
> Only it was fitted to my
> Standard Eight. It really didn't do anything for the Eight. Because the
> car was suffering with a strange 'humming' noise. I was told that this
> was 'normal' for a Standard. After removal of all the gubbins and a new
> prop shaft fitted the humming noise had vanished! Also the car goes much
> better without the damned thing!
We ended up making mods to the Atlas to accomodate a "normal"
Herald/Spitfire arrangement. Blasted thing still hasn't seen the road
though....
Willy Eckerslyke
> The Overdrive will make it a much more pleasant car for any longer
> journeys, but as Ian says, make sure you're going to keep the car before
> splashing out lots of money. And before you buy a second hand box, find
> out who the reputable dealers are - there are some who are little short
> of thieves!
Too right, a neighbour of mine bought a non-running Vitesse for
50 quid, stripped it for spares and flogged the o/d gearbox for
250 quid without it even turning a cog!
Mind you, I'll let him off as he then gave me the engine, which
appears to be in excellent order.
--
Robert Pearce
<engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Robert Pearce <classi...@bdt-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: Strictly the mainshaft of an overdrive gearbox is actually shorter than
>: the normal one, but it also has the oil pump cam and different splines
>: and end piece. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "extension tunnel"
>: but it reminds me that nobody seems to have pointed out the need to cut
>: four inches off the front if the propshaft tunnel in the floor panel.
>
>I have two 13/60 convertibles and one 12/50 saloon at the moment. All have -
>as original, as far as I can see - a rectangular cutout on the tunnel which
>allows a J-type O/D gearbox to fit in with no further cutting. Perhaps it's
>different with a D-type - I have been led to believe that the cut out was
>needed for the Vitesse and therefore included in all back bodies for
>simplicity. It's therefore probably not there on pre-Vitesse Heralds.
>
was a fairly late car (1968). The D-type is shorter than the J-type, so
that the original cut-out I made for the D-type box wasn't enough to get
the J-type one in. It is possible, now I come to think of it, that the
Herald's engine position means a D-type box would just squeeze in
without the cut-out, as it's a couple of inches further forward.
Justin Vaughan
just resurrecting this thread as I am also looking to add an OverDrive unit to my 1969 13/60 Herald, but to complicate matters my car has had a Spitfire 1500 engine installed. I am new to the car and wondered if anyone here know exactly what i will need to carry out this conversion?
thanks, Justin
Davey
place cut down and re-made a spare propshaft to my specifications, and
the result was great.
I do not know anything about D-Type and J-Type boxes, I just modified
whatever I had.
Good luck!
--
Davey.
Indy Jess John
overdrive where the gearbox self-destructed dumping it oil on the clutch
and the road. I went hunting round the local breakers and found a
replacement overdrive gearbox, but when I got it home it wasn't a
straight swap - the dimensions were different (perhaps the difference
between the D and J units?) - so I took it back for a refund. There was
a non-overdrive gearbox for the Dolomite there, so I took that and the
associated propshaft. The splines were different so I had to get a
different clutch that would fit the gearbox splines. When fitted, the
original overdrive gear lever (with a switch built into the knob) fitted
the gearbox but it wasn't perfectly aligned to the hole in the
transmission tunnel, so that hole needed to be adjusted with a file.
I don't know if the Herald is simpler, but I do know that the overdrive
gearbox is longer so you will need to replace or re-engineer the
propshaft. You might have to check that the gearbox mountings are in
the same position and adjust if necessary too. I think the difference
between the Herald and Spitfire engines are a longer stroke so the
engine blocks should be identical.
Justin Vaughan
Abandoned Trolley
throw a spanner in the works, but .....
Has any thought been given to the rear axle ratio ?
I know that a number of cars which had overdrive units factory fitted
had a slightly lower ratio than the "normal" models.
For example, my 3.4 Jaguar Mark 2 has an overdrive and a 3.77 diff
whereas the non-overdrive models were fitted with a 3.54 diff
I have no idea what the overdrive gear ratio might be for the Herald,
but on the Jag its 0.778:1 - which with the normal diff ratio might make
top gear unmanageably tall (obviously I have never tried it)
One other big difference is that overdrive can only be engaged in top
gear on the Jag whereas the Herald might allow it in 3rd or even 2nd ?
On the Herald it might be used as a ratio splitter, whereas on the Jag
it’s just a 5th gear
Davey
Abandoned Trolley <fr...@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
> One other big difference is that overdrive can only be engaged in top
> gear on the Jag whereas the Herald might allow it in 3rd or even
> 2nd ? On the Herald it might be used as a ratio splitter, whereas on
> the Jag it’s just a 5th gear
a toggle switch on the dash. Worked fine, and it operated on all
gears, which could result in an interesting close-ratio box effect.
When I first fitted the box, I didn't know that it had the operating
valve stuck in the 'On' position, so when I first drove the modified
car, it went on its own from first to first-overdrive, and then second-,
third-and fourth-overdrive. The problem was easily fixed.
Note my mention in my other post also about the length pf the propshaft
required.
--
Davey.
Abandoned Trolley
Jag owners are warned against fiddling with the overdrive switch to
allow the overdrive to be used in any gear but top.
Theres some sort of torque multiplying effect in the lower gears which
can cause overdrive gear teeth to get stripped, which I imagine is
insanely expensive.
There used to be a prop shaft balancing specialist on an industrial
estate in Wembley, and a good chunk of his work was to do with
overdrives - I guess he is long gone by now though :-\
Davey
Abandoned Trolley <fr...@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
> Jag owners are warned against fiddling with the overdrive switch to
> allow the overdrive to be used in any gear but top.
>
> Theres some sort of torque multiplying effect in the lower gears
> which can cause overdrive gear teeth to get stripped, which I imagine
> is insanely expensive.
>
difference from the 13/60 engine was the camshaft. Base output: 61 bhp
(I think). My car's output was not much more, it just happened at
different engine speeds. Ad I usually only used the O/D in the higher
gears.
> There used to be a prop shaft balancing specialist on an industrial
> estate in Wembley, and a good chunk of his work was to do with
> overdrives - I guess he is long gone by now though :-\
balance anything you take to them.
--
Davey.