No more paddling in Austria, at least not this year
Michiel Verhoef
I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
elected Austrian government
and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle there
anymore. At least, I won't.
So, looking for places to go paddling this summer... Perhaps some
poloplayers might have a two weeks
holiday of rivers/polo/climbing or something? Just a thought...
Happy paddling,
Michiel
Jez Kent
> Hi all,
>
> I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> elected Austrian government
> and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle
there
> anymore. At least, I won't.
Michiel, I'm not going to allow politics to enter sport, or more
accurately my snowboarding holiday is worth more than my political
ideologies :-)
Besides, people still go on holiday in Turkey and many other countries
that have not only questionable administrations but demonstrably
devilish ones blah blah blah. So Austria is, for the moment, fine with
my conscience.
--
Jez Kent - Reading, UK
"Life is like a wild tiger, you can either lie down and let
it lay its paw on your head or sit on its back and ride it!"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
henryt...@msn.com
spending Christmas there this year. I love Austria! So what's up with
the government?
Kevin
In article <389A8570...@wkap.nl>,
Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> elected Austrian government
> and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle
there
> anymore. At least, I won't.
>
> So, looking for places to go paddling this summer... Perhaps some
> poloplayers might have a two weeks
> holiday of rivers/polo/climbing or something? Just a thought...
>
> Happy paddling,
>
> Michiel
>
>
Adrian J Pullin
under universal sufference, I do not see any constitutional
justification for this action (or any other action proposed by the EU).
I do NOT support the far right wing views of sections of this new
government, but to start sanctions against elected governments before
they have done anything is a very slippery slope. Next we'll have
action against governments because we don't like their colour, or
language, or religon, or whatever.
Michiel Verhoef wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> elected Austrian government
> and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle there
> anymore. At least, I won't.
>
> So, looking for places to go paddling this summer... Perhaps some
> poloplayers might have a two weeks
> holiday of rivers/polo/climbing or something? Just a thought...
>
> Happy paddling,
>
> Michiel
--
Adrian J Pullin
Club Coach
Peninsula Canoe Club
Wirral
CintiBud
<pull...@newi.ac.uk> wrote:
>Considering the new government in Austria is democratically
elected
>under universal sufference, I do not see any constitutional
>justification for this action (or any other action proposed by
the EU).
>
Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for himself -
he doesn't need constitutional justification!
:-)
CintiBud
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Ole Sandmo
Adrian J Pullin skrev i meldingen <389ABEED...@newi.ac.uk>...
>Considering the new government in Austria is democratically elected
>under universal sufference, I do not see any constitutional
>justification for this action (or any other action proposed by the EU).
Considering what Haider's party stands for, there is plenty of moral
justification.
>I do NOT support the far right wing views of sections of this new
>government, but to start sanctions against elected governments before
>they have done anything is a very slippery slope. Next we'll have
>action against governments because we don't like their colour, or
>language, or religon, or whatever.
On the other hand we should have actions against governments that don't
respect every colour, religion or whatever.
Coming to think of it, Austria has never been my first choice for
seakayaking anyway.
Ole Sandmo
Tromsř, Norway.
riverman
Adrian J Pullin wrote:
> I do NOT support the far right wing views of sections of this new
> government, but to start sanctions against elected governments before
> they have done anything is a very slippery slope.
>
Why not? We ELECT people based on promises before they have done anything. Why
can't we start sanctions against them based on their promises?
The worst time to close the barn door is *after* the horses got out.
--
riverman
.........................
I think, therefore I thwim;
Carpe ropum.
rbp #2
Adrian J Pullin
>
> Michiel, I'm not going to allow politics to enter sport, or more
> accurately my snowboarding holiday is worth more than my political
> ideologies :-)
>
> Besides, people still go on holiday in Turkey and many other countries
> that have not only questionable administrations but demonstrably
> devilish ones blah blah blah. So Austria is, for the moment, fine with
> my conscience.
>
Looks like I'll have to agree with Jez again!
Adrian J Pullin
>
>
> Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for himself -
> he doesn't need constitutional justification!
Sure he can. But he does not have the right to tell ME where to paddle,
based on his personal views of a government that he doesn't like.
Mark Rainsley
Jez Kent <jerem...@covance.com> wrote in message
news:87emds$612$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Michiel, I'm not going to allow politics to enter sport, or more
> accurately my snowboarding holiday is worth more than my political
> ideologies :-)
>
> Besides, people still go on holiday in Turkey and many other countries
> that have not only questionable administrations but demonstrably
> devilish ones blah blah blah. So Austria is, for the moment, fine with
> my conscience.
>
> --
> Jez Kent - Reading, UK
Nope, politics should certainly come into the equation. For starters, I moot
that the Dutch be banned from paddling in all other countries. They should
enjoy their own raging whitewater torrents and not crowd those belonging to
other folk.
He he he he.
--
Mark Rainsley
The UK Rivers Guidebook
www.guidebook.free-online.co.uk
riverman
Adrian J Pullin wrote:
> CintiBud wrote:
> >
> >
> > Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for himself -
> > he doesn't need constitutional justification!
>
> Sure he can. But he does not have the right to tell ME where to paddle,
> based on his personal views of a government that he doesn't like.
>
I'll probably not be the only one to point out that he didn't. He made the
statement that he didn't think it was appropriate to paddle there, and he
(at least) wasn't going to. You are certainly reasonable to point out that
you DO think it's appropriate to paddle there, or even to say that you think
people who think it's inappropriate to paddle there are wrong.
But he never said <you> shouldn't paddle there. He was floating an opinion
about his own beliefs, hoping to find others who agreed, and maybe even get
undecided people to agree; its how probably 99% of all conversations start.
There's a large difference between what he said, and what you are reacting
to. He certainly DOESN"T have the right to tell you where to paddle.
Mary Malmros
>under universal sufference, I do not see any constitutional
>justification for this action (or any other action proposed by the EU).
A "constitutional justification" is not required for individuals to
vote with their dollars, schillings, guilders, pounds, francs,
rupees, or any other currency, against something that they don't
agree with. It's just an individual action, based on individual
conscience, and one that Michiel has every right to make.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
S.W. Cooper
At least Austria will be less crowded on the rivers then.
Adrian J Pullin wrote:
>
> Considering the new government in Austria is democratically elected
> under universal sufference, I do not see any constitutional
> justification for this action (or any other action proposed by the EU).
>
> I do NOT support the far right wing views of sections of this new
> government, but to start sanctions against elected governments before
> they have done anything is a very slippery slope. Next we'll have
> action against governments because we don't like their colour, or
> language, or religon, or whatever.
>
> Michiel Verhoef wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> > elected Austrian government
> > and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle there
> > anymore. At least, I won't.
> >
> > So, looking for places to go paddling this summer... Perhaps some
> > poloplayers might have a two weeks
> > holiday of rivers/polo/climbing or something? Just a thought...
> >
> > Happy paddling,
> >
> > Michiel
>
> --
> Adrian J Pullin
> Club Coach
> Peninsula Canoe Club
> Wirral
--
Castrate me to reply.
Jim Wallis
>
> Quite right too.
> At least Austria will be less crowded on the rivers then.
>
I have to agree with you here, at least it will be a nice quiet summer
out there if you people are really concerned by politics!
I have always considered paddling to be something I can enjoy without
worrying about politics and stuff, clearly the whole access issue in the
UK is political, but then I try not to get invovled in it too often.
Anyone for Tibet, or how about the south american countries that are so
popular just now despite their human rights records and drug wars that
are decimating the populations of the mountainous areas. The paddling
world would shrink if we boycotted all such countries, and anyway whats
so right with the British government right now?
JIM
Dave Manby
the conservative party to form a coalition to keep the conservative
party in power. The far right did manage to get 20% of the vote in some
areas and so gained seats in the parliament. Remember when John Major's
government was struggling to stay in power and had to rely on the Ulster
Unionist to vote with the conservative party to remain in power - the
effect was that the whole of the UK was being ruled by 7(?) Ulster
unionist MPs. This is different to being democartically elected I would
argue. Normally this does not happen with our first past the post
electoral school but is the trouble with proportional representation. A
classic example being years ago in France when the government passed a
law which upset the shopkeepers of France - they formed a party and then
controlled the government because they had the deciding votes in the
parliament. Now we have a small political party effectively controlling
the Austrian government.
Mind you Hitler never was democratically elected by the majority of the
country. He was elected into power but at a turn out of 32% and there
were some strange manoevering going on as well - I would have to talk to
my sister to get the exact details (she is a history graduate, one time
laywer and now works for Human Rights Watch and is very anti Austria now
even though her sphere of work is Africa)
--
Dave Manby.
Coruh River trips. White Water rafting and kayaking trips in Eastern Turkey.
Many Rivers To Run. A colection of white-water kayaking stories.
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk
12 Mayfield Park, Shrewsbury, SY2 6PD. UK.
Mark Rainsley
news:389B449C...@cableinet.co.uk...
> Anyone for Tibet, or how about the south american countries that are so
> popular just now despite their human rights records and drug wars that
> are decimating the populations of the mountainous areas.
Funnily enough, a British group are presently trying to mount a major trip
in Tibet. I mentioned this issue, the instant answer was, "f*ck politics,
the river is more important." I had to admit; given the opportunity (and
paddling ability) I would instantly forget all my right-on politic values to
join such a trip!
Anyone read the one of Joe Simpson's books where he debates morally whether
or not he should climb a Himalayan route which crosses the border about 50
yards into Tibet? After 100 odd pages of this tedious self-indulgent
whinging, I felt inclined to go and persecute the Tibetan people myself.
As for the politics of river-running in this country, that IS worth getting
up steam about. And I won't be boycotting any rivers to make my point, quite
the opposite...
Ulli Hoger
some of you mentioned already the situation in Tibet, S-America, what
about France (for blowing up nukes in the S-Pacific in the mid 90's),
...............
Up to now there are no human rights violated in Austria. Let's hope that
it stays that way.
The world will keep an eye on Austria in the future. That's good. But
also keep an eye on "Nazi" movements and the human rights in your own
land, where ever you live on this world. Be aware that there are more
extreme right groups in other European countries, as well as in the land
of the free, the USA, than in Austria and Germany! And the Amnesty
International list of states with human right violations is loooong and
lists a number of western nations as well! It's to easy to point on
other's and forget what stinks at home!
Lessons for us to learn? If you live in a democracy, GO and vote! Even
invalid votes cut down the percentage of extreme parties of whatever
direction and let all parties know that you do not agree with their
politics. The high % result for right in Austria was a result of low
participation and protest voters.
My $0.02 (Canadian)
Cheers
Ulli
Dave Manby
<ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> writes
>Jim Wallis <Jim.W...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:389B449C...@cableinet.co.uk...
>
>> Anyone for Tibet, or how about the south american countries that are so
>> popular just now despite their human rights records and drug wars that
>> are decimating the populations of the mountainous areas.
>
>Funnily enough, a British group are presently trying to mount a major trip
>in Tibet. I mentioned this issue, the instant answer was, "f*ck politics,
>the river is more important." I had to admit; given the opportunity (and
>paddling ability) I would instantly forget all my right-on politic values to
>join such a trip!
and by being one of the first groups to go there the arguement is that
one has the chance to express ones views on what one finds there to the
worlds press/paddlers on ones return and this is a justification for the
expedition (a view I do not share). By going on paddling in Austria as
if nothing has changed then the message is 'We do not mind if you have a
racist neo-nazi controlled government'.
In the days of sports boycott's of south africa all the same arguements
raged. As someone born in SA I know that the sports boycott hurt SA -
they love their sport over there and to be excluded from the world stage
mattered.
I think being excluded from the International Tourist market my well
cause less aparthy at the next election in the tirol.
>
>Anyone read the one of Joe Simpson's books where he debates morally whether
>or not he should climb a Himalayan route which crosses the border about 50
>yards into Tibet? After 100 odd pages of this tedious self-indulgent
>whinging, I felt inclined to go and persecute the Tibetan people myself.
Ah but you are mixing arguements here. Just because Simpsons writing
bored you does not justify reacting against his point.
>
>As for the politics of river-running in this country, that IS worth getting
>up steam about. And I won't be boycotting any rivers to make my point, quite
>the opposite...
>--
>Mark Rainsley
>The UK Rivers Guidebook
>www.guidebook.free-online.co.uk
>
>
>
--
Jack
>Many Rivers To Run. A colection of white-water kayaking stories.
And may I just say that your book is most excellent. I was on a day
trip to Shrewsbury this Christmas, and as usual I was drawn by some
incredible unknown force into the climbing shop. Well, next thing you
know I was buying your book. Needless to say, it didn't make it back
home to California without being finished.
I'll remember those stories the next time I think I'm "out there" on
some wilderness run. In general we don't often have to deal with the
fear of being eaten - whether by crocodile, cannibal, or hippo.
Likewise, the next time some inbred redneck looks at me strange when
I've got my boat and a neoprene sprayskirt, I'll think of the monks in
the kayak on the sacred lake. They must think Westerners are
completely batty. An outstanding collection of stories, Dave.
Thanks!
John
Mary Malmros
>>
>>
>> Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for himself -
>> he doesn't need constitutional justification!
>
>Sure he can. But he does not have the right to tell ME where to paddle,
Simmer down. He didn't tell you where to paddle.
Matt Wetherill
Adrian J Pullin
using their vote (or at least their voice) against this Nazi mob. Protests
in the streets etc. Maybe by the next Austrian election, this won't be an
issue!
Mark Rainsley
news:srXJ$QARh2...@dmanby.demon.co.uk...
> In article <87fmp2$rqg$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, Mark Rainsley
> <ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> writes
> I think you miss the point here - hardly anyone goes paddling in Tibet
> and by being one of the first groups to go there the arguement is that
> one has the chance to express ones views on what one finds there to the
> worlds press/paddlers on ones return and this is a justification for the
> expedition (a view I do not share). By going on paddling in Austria as
> if nothing has changed then the message is 'We do not mind if you have a
> racist neo-nazi controlled government'.
Maybe....or perhaps the message is, whether or not we paddle Austria's
rivers, will have absolutely zero effects on the nation's politics...?
Out of interest, the argument you described to justify paddling in Tibet,
namely, 'it'll publicise the situation there'...was this used by the
American group on the Tsangpo? Did they pay huge sums of money to the
Chinese government for the trip? Did they receive criticism for paddling in
Tibet? Anyone know? Can anyone think of any really morally/ politically
dubious paddling trips which have taken place?
> In the days of sports boycott's of south africa all the same arguements
> raged. As someone born in SA I know that the sports boycott hurt SA -
> they love their sport over there and to be excluded from the world stage
> mattered.
>
> I think being excluded from the International Tourist market may well
> cause less aparthy at the next election in the tirol.
Not sure I see this myself; certainly not where whitewater tourism is
concerned. I'm not saying this is ideal, it's just how it is. Let's face it;
however worthy, the sports embargo on South Africa didn't exactly bring the
Apartheid movement to it's knees, did it?
If anyone cares, the bigger picture (history) tends to suggest that the only
thing which forces a Government's hands are huge social upheaval (like in
SA), extreme economic deprivation (and then not too often; did you see Iraq
pull out of Kuwait due to sanctions?) or more likely, war. And let's not kid
ourselves that war achieves much worthwhile these days; look at what a
lovely place Kosovo has became lately.
None of these factors seem likely to change anything in Austria. I won't be
thinking twice about paddling there. I didn't have a problem with paddling
in Nepal (barely democratic Monarchy), India (poor human rights record in
Kashmir) or Morocco (vicious treatment of Polisario), etc. I don't believe
that visiting these countries constitutes supporting the 'dark side' of
their Government's policies.
I think Tibet is a trickier area; certainly if you are paying large sums of
money to the Chinese to paddle there.
> >Anyone read the one of Joe Simpson's books where he debates morally
whether
> >or not he should climb a Himalayan route which crosses the border about
50
> >yards into Tibet? After 100 odd pages of this tedious self-indulgent
> >whinging, I felt inclined to go and persecute the Tibetan people myself.
> Ah but you are mixing arguements here. Just because Simpsons writing
> bored you does not justify reacting against his point.
Yes true, I was just rambling on.
Best wishes,
Wilko
>
> Nope, politics should certainly come into the equation. For starters, I moot
> that the Dutch be banned from paddling in all other countries. They should
> enjoy their own raging whitewater torrents and not crowd those belonging to
> other folk.
>
> He he he he.
Well Michiel, looks like you need to start helping to dig that
artificial white water course near Grave... :-)
--
Wilko van den Bergh quibus(at)europe(dot)com
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Look Mum: No sense!"
------------------------------------------------------------------
Julie Keller
Let's go paddling.
I'm going to Section IV tomorrow.
Julie
************
Great river photos at http://JulieKeller.com
<paddlema...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:87if1v$q90$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <05d2d67e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com>,
> CintiBud <bchavez...@rippe.com.invalid> wrote:
> > Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for himself -
> > he doesn't need constitutional justification!
>
> I think this lack of rain in the Southeast is infringing on my
> Constitutional Right to pursue happiness. Who can I sue?
>
>
>
> Since we can't boat, watch Whitewater Videos:
> http://www.whitewatervideo.com
paddlema...@my-deja.com
leo
front men.
Mary Malmros
Mark Rainsley <ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>Dave Manby <da...@dmanby.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:srXJ$QARh2...@dmanby.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <87fmp2$rqg$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, Mark Rainsley
>> <ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> writes
>
>> I think you miss the point here - hardly anyone goes paddling in Tibet
>> and by being one of the first groups to go there the arguement is that
>> one has the chance to express ones views on what one finds there to the
>> worlds press/paddlers on ones return and this is a justification for the
>> expedition (a view I do not share). By going on paddling in Austria as
>> if nothing has changed then the message is 'We do not mind if you have a
>> racist neo-nazi controlled government'.
>
>Maybe....or perhaps the message is, whether or not we paddle Austria's
>rivers, will have absolutely zero effects on the nation's politics...?
Isn't it a little premature to make such a statements? It's rare, if
ever, that a single economic action such as a boycott (which, remember,
has neither been proposed nor discussed here, only dismissed) can be
said to be THE action that caused a change in national policies.
Such actions are drops of water falling on the stone. How many of
y'all river-runners have seen a rock that's had drops of water falling
on it for countless years? You won't ever be able to point to one drop
of water and say, "Yup, that was the champeen water drop that created
that deep groove!" But the groove still gets made.
[snip]
>> In the days of sports boycott's of south africa all the same arguements
>> raged. As someone born in SA I know that the sports boycott hurt SA -
>> they love their sport over there and to be excluded from the world stage
>> mattered.
>>
>> I think being excluded from the International Tourist market may well
>> cause less aparthy at the next election in the tirol.
>
>Not sure I see this myself; certainly not where whitewater tourism is
>concerned. I'm not saying this is ideal, it's just how it is. Let's face it;
>however worthy, the sports embargo on South Africa didn't exactly bring the
>Apartheid movement to it's knees, did it?
Not by itself, it didn't. That's the point, though -- no single action was
responsible for the ending of apartheid. It was a multiplicity of
individual and collective actions. To discount any one of them because
it had "absolutely zero effect on the nation's politics" would be a
mistake. Individual actions whose individual results may not be measurable,
may still add up to something significant.
And, beyond that, is the individual's choice to refuse to support
something that he/she finds morally repugnant. That is where this
thread began, and frankly, I am shocked at the number of people who
seem to be deriding and undermining this individual decision. Michiel
never said, "This is what all of you must do." You can do what you
want, but why this frantic avalanche of argument against what he is
doing? It almost sounds like a defensive rush to justification, to me.
No justification was called for, so really, I think everybody can just
relax. Paddle in Austria, or don't paddle in Austria. It's an
individual decision; no one's calling on you to justify what you do.
Melissa
'individual drops' in this 'thread' are all a part of the equation. There
are certainly different angles from which to see one's individual actions
(or lack thereof). I some ways, I think that it is important that we live
our lives 'as if we already had the freedoms we wish we had'. At the same
time, when we know that others are living under possibly 'oppressive'
circumstances, maybe we, as 'drops', should try to make a 'bigger splash',
as it were. I commend Michiel for his stance concerining this issue, and
would hope that if someone chooses to paddle in 'questionable' places, they
might also consider doing a little something 'extra' to make their
displeasure (of the situation) known, and to help the people who 'must' be
there. As others have mentioned, let's not forget human rights abuses all
over the world, including right here at home (wherever 'home' may be).
-Melissa
Mary Malmros <mal...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:87k4u1$h...@northshore.shore.net...
Mark Rainsley
news:s9rcljb...@corp.supernews.com...
> I...
> ...would hope that if someone chooses to paddle in 'questionable' places,
they
> might also consider doing a little something 'extra' to make their
> displeasure (of the situation) known, and to help the people who 'must' be
> there.
Hmm, I know I'm going to regret asking this question, but go on then, be
specific...
...what EXACTLY might a kayaker on holiday in say, Tibet or Turkey, do to
make their displeasure (of the situation) known, and to help the people who
'must' be there?
I'm offering you the chance to clarify this statement, as frankly at this
point it reeks of condescension and patronisation.
Charles Pezeshki
Chuck
--
Chuck Pezeshki
For pictures of our threatened Idaho backcountry,
along the route of Lewis and Clark, check out my
web page at: http://users.moscow.com/pezeshki
----------
In article <87k4u1$h...@northshore.shore.net>, mal...@shore.net (Mary
Melissa
my intent.Your question does merit a considered response from me, and I
shall try.
First, maybe we should address the issue of our 'holidays', and what our
'fun and recreation' might mean to others (whether or not we 'have an
agenda' one way or the other). If you lived in a situation that felt
'repressive' in any way, and you saw a bunch of happy, oblivious
'foreigners' breezing through your town, whooping it up, and then, just as
suddenly, going home to rave of their 'first decents', etc., would you not
feel a bit of resentment - at the very least, for their 'apparent
nonchalance' concening your situation? Therefore, if we're determined to
simply go and have our 'holidays' no matter what, maybe we're contributing
to the 'darker side' of a situation by (even without meaning to), making
ourselves less welcome in the long run, and making 'isolationist' policies
more appealing (which often allow for more repressive internal policies).
About that 'little extra' I made an unclear reference to..........Each
situation, of course, has it's different 'extras' to consider. Often, it
involves actually 'asking someone' what would make a difference to them, and
if you could offer any help. Sometimes, you'll find that the best thing is
to go home, and make a point of letting people know why you're not going to
'holiday' there for the moment. In the case of Tibet, many foreign
climbers have found that helping to build schools (an educated populace has
a somewhat better chance of furthering their goals of freedom, etc.),
hospitals, and helping clean up the mess left by so many other foreigners on
'holiday'.
I certainly don't have asnwers to every situation I encounter, but I think
that much more can usually be done than just 'go on with my plans for a good
time' because 'it won't make a difference anyway'. Each of us, I believe,
can make some difference in the lives of others. Sometimes it's by 'not'
doing something, and other times, if we're willing to listen to the people,
we will learn of things we 'can' do. I hope that I've at least cleared up
'my' position a bit. Again, I apologize to anyone who thinks my comments to
be condescending in any way. Let's be a little less defensive, and a little
more sensitive to the plight of others.
-Melissa
Mark Rainsley <ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:87kemu$r8r$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Melissa
anyone!
-Melissanews:s9rior...@corp.supernews.com...
Dave Manby
>namely, 'it'll publicise the situation there'...was this used by the
>American group on the Tsangpo? Did they pay huge sums of money to the
>Chinese government for the trip? Did they receive criticism for paddling in
>Tibet? Anyone know? Can anyone think of any really morally/ politically
>dubious paddling trips which have taken place?
--
Dave Manby.
Coruh River trips. White Water rafting and kayaking trips in Eastern Turkey.
Many Rivers To Run. A colection of white-water kayaking stories.
Dave Manby
>ever, that a single economic action such as a boycott (which, remember,
>has neither been proposed nor discussed here, only dismissed) can be
>said to be THE action that caused a change in national policies.
>Such actions are drops of water falling on the stone. How many of
>y'all river-runners have seen a rock that's had drops of water falling
>on it for countless years? You won't ever be able to point to one drop
>of water and say, "Yup, that was the champeen water drop that created
>that deep groove!" But the groove still gets made.
>
>[snip]
>>> In the days of sports boycott's of south africa all the same arguements
>>> raged. As someone born in SA I know that the sports boycott hurt SA -
>>> they love their sport over there and to be excluded from the world stage
>>> mattered.
>>>
>>> I think being excluded from the International Tourist market may well
>>> cause less aparthy at the next election in the tirol.
>>
>>Not sure I see this myself; certainly not where whitewater tourism is
>>concerned. I'm not saying this is ideal, it's just how it is. Let's face it;
>>however worthy, the sports embargo on South Africa didn't exactly bring the
>>Apartheid movement to it's knees, did it?
was perhaps not their God Given Right. It had never occured to them the
political system they were living under was wrong and a seed of doubt
was sown - and from acorns....
>
>Not by itself, it didn't. That's the point, though -- no single action was
>responsible for the ending of apartheid. It was a multiplicity of
>individual and collective actions. To discount any one of them because
>it had "absolutely zero effect on the nation's politics" would be a
>mistake. Individual actions whose individual results may not be measurable,
>may still add up to something significant.
>
>
>
>
--
Mark Rainsley
news:s9rior...@corp.supernews.com...
> I'm sorry Mark, if my comment seemed 'condescending' to you. This was not
> my intent.Your question does merit a considered response from me, and I
> shall try.
>
To be clear, I didn't find it patronising or condescending to ME. I found it
patronising to the foreigners you were referring to.
>>> I...would hope that if someone chooses to paddle in 'questionable'
>>> places, they might also consider doing a little something 'extra' to
make their
>>> displeasure (of the situation) known, and to help the people who 'must'
>>> be there.
There were a number of very dubious assumptions underlying your statement...
* That the citizens of countries with governments which we consider
imperfect or inferior to ours are unhappy living there; they 'must' live
there.
* That these people necessarily want or need the help of visiting kayakers.
* That kayakers should be openly criticising or expressing their displeasure
about a country they have chosen to visit.
> First, maybe we should address the issue of our 'holidays', and what our
> 'fun and recreation' might mean to others (whether or not we 'have an
> agenda' one way or the other). If you lived in a situation that felt
> 'repressive' in any way, and you saw a bunch of happy, oblivious
> 'foreigners' breezing through your town, whooping it up, and then, just as
> suddenly, going home to rave of their 'first descents', etc., would you
not
> feel a bit of resentment - at the very least, for their 'apparent
> nonchalance' concerning your situation?
I used the word 'holiday' deliberately to be honest. Plenty of people have
disguised their holidays under the name of 'expedition' or 'project' or
whatever to make it sound like more than what it is; a holiday. If I were to
go and solo the Tsangpo Great Bend tomorrow (unlikely), it would be my
holiday, however it was written up in National Geographic. No need for
pretension.
The concept of locals taking offense at foreign kayakers unconcerned at the
political state of their nation, paddling through their town; I don't see
this. This notion seems to me to be based on the strange assumption again,
that these people would view visitors from the outside world as either their
potential 'saviours' or as evil supporters of their political regime. I
rather think they would treat you as just another visitor, as long as you
showed respect for their way of life. Simple as that.
> Therefore, if we're determined to
> simply go and have our 'holidays' no matter what, maybe we're contributing
> to the 'darker side' of a situation by (even without meaning to), making
> ourselves less welcome in the long run, and making 'isolationist' policies
> more appealing (which often allow for more repressive internal policies).
Surely arriving from abroad with the idea in your head that the locals in
some way need YOUR help would cause more offense?
Countries with solationist policies...it's worth noting that many of these
(former USSR, China, Vietnam, etc.) have been subverted not by foreigners
giving 'extra' help and support to the 'repressed' people of those nations,
but by hard cash. MONEY is rapidly changing these and other less
economically developed nations (for better or for worse) far faster than any
political protest. Ask a Turkish hotel owner which one of these things he
would rather have from a visiting kayaker...
a] No visit in the first place, in protest at his country's often corrupt
and inefficient political system, and appalling treatment of the Kurds.
b] Your openly expressed sympathy and support at his plight of 'having' to
live in such a country.
c] Your bill paid in full.
I haven't visited Turkey yet; but even so I think I know the answer.
> About that 'little extra' I made an unclear reference to..........Each
> situation, of course, has it's different 'extras' to consider. Often, it
> involves actually 'asking someone' what would make a difference to them,
and
> if you could offer any help.
For heaven's sake. Would YOU wish for some condescending foreigner to travel
to your country to ask if YOU need help?
> Sometimes, you'll find that the best thing is
> to go home, and make a point of letting people know why you're not going
to
> 'holiday' there for the moment. In the case of Tibet, many foreign
> climbers have found that helping to build schools (an educated populace
has
> a somewhat better chance of furthering their goals of freedom, etc.),
> hospitals, and helping clean up the mess left by so many other foreigners
on
> 'holiday'.
As I've said before, Tibet is a trickier situation. Big 'expeditions' tend
to pay enormous sums of money to operate there (noone has answered my
question yet about the US paddlers on the Great Bend; did they pay up?) and
it seems fair to assume that the money does not find it's way into the
pockets of many indigenous Tibetans. I still couldn't honestly say that I
wouldn't paddle there myself, given the chance.
> I certainly don't have asnwers to every situation I encounter, but I think
> that much more can usually be done than just 'go on with my plans for a
good
> time' because 'it won't make a difference anyway'. Each of us, I believe,
> can make some difference in the lives of others. Sometimes it's by 'not'
> doing something, and other times, if we're willing to listen to the
people,
> we will learn of things we 'can' do. I hope that I've at least cleared up
> 'my' position a bit. Again, I apologize to anyone who thinks my comments
to
> be condescending in any way. Let's be a little less defensive, and a
little
> more sensitive to the plight of others.
>
> -Melissa
>
You've entirely lost me in the last paragraph, I'm afraid. So are you saying
that visiting kayakers should be looking to do something (ie. interfere)
about the places they visit, or are you saying they should not? And if so,
what? I think this is what I asked originally.
'More will invariably mean worse' - Kingsley Amis
Michiel Verhoef
> Mark Rainsley wrote:
> >
> > Nope, politics should certainly come into the equation. For starters, I moot
> > that the Dutch be banned from paddling in all other countries. They should
> > enjoy their own raging whitewater torrents and not crowd those belonging to
> > other folk.
> >
> > He he he he.
>
> Well Michiel, looks like you need to start helping to dig that
> artificial white water course near Grave... :-)
Yup, oh well, it's a good exercise to get in shape so I can enjoy the course even
better ;-)
BTW: when it's finished everybody is welcome to paddle there, regardless of
whether you're a
recreational paddler or a top-notch competition slalom paddler or whatever *grin*
Happy paddling,
Michiel
PS Geez, I never thought there would be so much discussion about my remarks...
However, I won't
change my opinion regardless of certain arguments. Anyway, I think at least the
acorn has been planted
so I hope the people in Austria can be convinced that using a vote on an extremely
right wing party as
a protest isn't the way to go as far as protest is concerned. The same trick has
been tried in the
Netherlands but luckily the extreme right wings parties goofed up and never got
anywhere.
th...@gmx.de
Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> Wilko wrote:
>
> > Mark Rainsley wrote:
> > >
> > > Nope, politics should certainly come into the equation. For
starters, I moot
> > > that the Dutch be banned from paddling in all other countries.
They should
> > > enjoy their own raging whitewater torrents and not crowd those
belonging to
> > > other folk.
> > >
> > > He he he he.
> >
> > Well Michiel, looks like you need to start helping to dig that
> > artificial white water course near Grave... :-)
>
> Yup, oh well, it's a good exercise to get in shape so I can enjoy the
course even
> better ;-)
>
> BTW: when it's finished everybody is welcome to paddle there,
regardless of
> whether you're a
> recreational paddler or a top-notch competition slalom paddler or
whatever *grin*
>
> Happy paddling,
>
> Michiel
Same to austrians?
Thomas
riverman
Dave Manby wrote:
>
> >>Not sure I see this myself; certainly not where whitewater tourism is
> >>concerned. I'm not saying this is ideal, it's just how it is. Let's face it;
> >>however worthy, the sports embargo on South Africa didn't exactly bring the
> >>Apartheid movement to it's knees, did it?
> No but many south African whites started to reaise that their status quo
> was perhaps not their God Given Right. It had never occured to them the
> political system they were living under was wrong and a seed of doubt
> was sown - and from acorns....
My girlfriend as well as about one third of my school is South African, and I
spent considerable time there last summer 'quizzing' the locals about apartheid
and the changes.. I would have to say that most white South Africans always knew
that there was something essentially wrong about apartheid (at least for the
majority of the 20th century), but were very used to their historically isolated
and protective status. The international sanctions as well as the atheletic
boycotts did little to plant seeds of impropriety; rather it let them know the
world was on to it and the days of white rule were numbered. The next step was the
fear and concern of *how* it would all change, not the realization that it
*should* all change.
I don't believe a population that truly beleived in its ways would care less about
private recreationalists boycotting them. Who has run the Euphrates in Iraq
lately? Our avoidance has little impact on local politics or attitudes.
Fortunately, in RSA, this wasn't the case. Unfortunately, in Iraq, it is.
> >
> >Not by itself, it didn't. That's the point, though -- no single action was
> >responsible for the ending of apartheid. It was a multiplicity of
> >individual and collective actions. To discount any one of them because
> >it had "absolutely zero effect on the nation's politics" would be a
> >mistake. Individual actions whose individual results may not be measurable,
> >may still add up to something significant.
Well, in theory maybe. But if private boaters are an almost insignificant portion
of a countries economy, I think the *real* benefit of a boycott is the peace of
mind on the boaters' part rather than the harm done by the boycott.
--
riverman
.........................
I think, therefore I thwim;
Carpe ropum.
rbp #2
Dave Manby
>(former USSR, China, Vietnam, etc.) have been subverted not by foreigners
>giving 'extra' help and support to the 'repressed' people of those nations,
>but by hard cash. MONEY is rapidly changing these and other less
>economically developed nations (for better or for worse) far faster than any
>political protest. Ask a Turkish hotel owner which one of these things he
>would rather have from a visiting kayaker...
>
>a] No visit in the first place, in protest at his country's often corrupt
>and inefficient political system, and appalling treatment of the Kurds.
>b] Your openly expressed sympathy and support at his plight of 'having' to
>live in such a country.
>c] Your bill paid in full.
>
>I haven't visited Turkey yet; but even so I think I know the answer.
>
which suufered even bigger drop in numbers Adrift cancelled, Alternatif
had 15 clients over 3 trips, WaterByNature came with one trip of 6. The
local raft company had no business whereas last year they had up to
three trips a day at some times during the summer before. All this was
because the Turks had arrested Ocalan the leader of the PKK. I am not
saying for a moment that this drop in numbers was a political protest
more that people were scared of the possible reprisal bombings that
might happpen and a beach in Spain is the same as a beach in Turkey. But
I am sure the economic impact that this boycott had on the country
caused the comutation of the death penalty to life.
BTW there were no reprisals.
Most Turks are very nationalistic and the Kurds are discriminated
against but the 'boycott' has raised the level of conciousness of the
population. Turks I know who some years ago wanted to go and assinate
Ocalan were realising that hanging him would not solve their problems. I
also spoke at length with Abdulkadir Ates, the then Tourist minister,
expressing my disaproval of the methods being used to eradicate the
Kurdish possibility. He was (he claimed and I believed him) the start of
a change of policy by the government. Change in government policy can be
brought about and external public pressure however it is administered
will have an effect. Look at the length of time it has taken for
Northern Ireland to get to the stage where Sien Fein to be able to talk
to the British government directly and only recently talk directly to
the Ulster Unionist.
However trying to IMPOSE our political and cultural values on another
country is never the way to go.
Wilko
> Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> >
> > BTW: when it's finished everybody is welcome to paddle there,
> regardless of
> > whether you're a
> > recreational paddler or a top-notch competition slalom paddler or
> whatever *grin*
> >
> > Happy paddling,
> >
> > Michiel
>
> Same to austrians?
Hee-hee! Good one, Thomas! :-)
Seriously though, why not?
Besides the fact that we still seem to have our borders open to
tourists, it will very probably be a commercial WW course, so I doubt
that anyone who is both paying and behaving will be denied access, no
matter what their nationality is.
--
Wilko van den Bergh - Quibus(at)europe(dot)com
Eindhoven - The Netherlands - Europe
--- "Look Mum: No sense!" ---
Michiel Verhoef
> In article <389E7FF8...@wkap.nl>,
> Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> > Wilko wrote:
> >
> > > Mark Rainsley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Nope, politics should certainly come into the equation. For
> starters, I moot
> > > > that the Dutch be banned from paddling in all other countries.
> They should
> > > > enjoy their own raging whitewater torrents and not crowd those
> belonging to
> > > > other folk.
> > > >
> > > > He he he he.
> > >
> > > Well Michiel, looks like you need to start helping to dig that
> > > artificial white water course near Grave... :-)
> >
> > Yup, oh well, it's a good exercise to get in shape so I can enjoy the
> course even
> > better ;-)
> >
> > BTW: when it's finished everybody is welcome to paddle there,
> regardless of
> > whether you're a
> > recreational paddler or a top-notch competition slalom paddler or
> whatever *grin*
> >
> > Happy paddling,
> >
> > Michiel
>
> Same to austrians?
>
> Thomas
>
Sure, there's nothing wrong with a dialogue with people who you disagree
with. In fact it is like
telling boat/gear manufacturers that their products aren't the quality one
expects from them.
For the Austrian people (and everybody else in this world) to learn that
simply blaming "bloody
furriners" for all the problems isn't going to work they have to get to
know foreigners. I have nothing
against Austria or Austrians. In fact, I really enjoyed my holidays there
and I find the fact that I
won't paddle there quite annoying. However, in this case I'd rather stick
to surfing the North Sea
waves (in case there's no place else to go ;-) than go to a country that
supports a political view
I sincerely disapprove of.
Again, it's not Austria, it's the nazism I don't like.
Happy paddling,
Michiel
Melissa
I may not be the most articulate writer in the English language, but I'm
very impressed with your ability to misunderstand me so miserably, and with
such smug, self-confident condescension. I've read your remarks here, and
realize that indeed I could have been 'clearer' in a number of ways (I came
to this realization by just re-reading my own writing, so don't get too
excited by your overall effectiveness at making a point). Still, I find
your extravagant misinterpretation of my remarks to be tedious beyond words,
and irritating to the point of distraction. I spent a little while thinking
about how to answer, point by point, your comments - but then I realized
that I have a life.
To the rest of you: If I did manage to offend anyone nearly as much as I've
offended Mark, I extend my sincerest apologies. I meant no disrespect
toward anyone, and please know that, in spite of myself, I meant well. Just
as I would want no one to 'tell' me what I should think, or feel, about a
given situation, I would not want to force my view on others. I do feel
strongly about certain things, and I'm willing to try to convey my ideas now
and again. Not always successful, as you can see. And to you, Mark, in
spite of my feelings about your remarks (which I've expressed freely), I
wish you well. I would just ask you to not be so fast in thinking you've
got it all figured out - believe me, when comes to me, and a few other
things, you haven't. Nor have I. I'll keep trying, will you? I shall now
retire from this thread, and I thank all of you for making this an
informative, and often entertaining forum.
Happy paddling (I mean it) to all!
-Melissa
Mark Rainsley <ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FYmn4.1907$h8.84355@wards...
Darth Rival
> >
> > Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for
> > himself - he doesn't need constitutional justification!
>
> government that he doesn't like.
No, and, in fact, he didn't try to tell you where to paddle. And he
DOES have the right to suggest that decent people everywhere might want
to express their abhorence of an abominable polital philosophy by voting
with their wallets... to go somewhere else. 'Course, if you don't find
fascism abominable... well there's a shoe that fits you; figgerin' out
the name of that shoe is left as an exercise for the morally bankrupt.
I admire Michiel's willingness to make the small sarifice of changing
his holiday plans as his gesture to the Austrian people indicating the
repugnance he finds in their gubmint. Jez' reply, with laugh icons (!)
-- that a boycott is a good idea... as long as it doesn't interfere with
his paddling -- reminded me of 1930's-style refusal to take a moral
stand if it were in any way inconvenient.
=========================================================
Richard Hopley, Rockville, MD, USA.........(301) 330-8265
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
Kris Waring
Darth Rival <the_do...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:87mt2e$pnb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Adrian J Pullin <pull...@newi.ac.uk> wrote:
> > CintiBud wrote:
> > >
> > > Huh? Michiel can decide where he wants to paddle for
> > > himself - he doesn't need constitutional justification!
> >
> > Sure he can. But he does not have the right to tell
> > ME where to paddle, based on his personal views of a
> > government that he doesn't like.
>
> No, and, in fact, he didn't try to tell you where to paddle. And he
> DOES have the right to suggest that decent people everywhere might want
> to express their abhorence of an abominable polital philosophy by voting
> with their wallets... to go somewhere else. 'Course, if you don't find
> fascism abominable... well there's a shoe that fits you; figgerin' out
> the name of that shoe is left as an exercise for the morally bankrupt.
>
> I admire Michiel's willingness to make the small sarifice of changing
> his holiday plans as his gesture to the Austrian people indicating the
> repugnance he finds in their gubmint. Jez' reply, with laugh icons (!)
> -- that a boycott is a good idea... as long as it doesn't interfere with
> his paddling -- reminded me of 1930's-style refusal to take a moral
> stand if it were in any way inconvenient.
Steady on!
I think this point has already been done to death!
> =========================================================
> Richard Hopley, Rockville, MD, USA.........(301) 330-8265
> Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
>
Perhaps you should add politics to that given your obviously strong feelings
on this!
Kris
Chris N
Kris Waring??? This is really THE Kris Waring??? The downriver STAR
who won a silver medal in the BUSA team event with a bunch of wasters
from Aberdeen a few years back?? It couldn't possibly be, or could it??
Chris
Mark Rainsley
> smug, self-confident condescension
If don't wish to pursue this conversation, fair enough.
The above qualities are ingrained from my career training...
Mark Rainsley
> Ah last year tourist bookings were 60% down - not just on the Coruh
> which suufered even bigger drop in numbers Adrift cancelled, Alternatif
> had 15 clients over 3 trips, WaterByNature came with one trip of 6. The
> local raft company had no business whereas last year they had up to
> three trips a day at some times during the summer before. All this was
> because the Turks had arrested Ocalan the leader of the PKK.
This is very interesting. Just to be clear, are you referring to bookings
made before the earthquake? Presumably this had a further disasterous effect
on Tourist income?
Jim Wallis
I put the question to friend who has worked as a raft guide in Austria
for the last few years and his answer was along the lines of:
Whats new about that? Austria has always been right wing, and the new
government is unlikely to have any effect on the way of things.
He may or may not work in Austria this year, but the decision will be
based on motivation - he got bored mid season last year and went to
Mexico instead, which he seemed to enjoy apart from the bandits.
Any Austrians on the newsgroups with a view on this? Is it just the the
press that have blown out of all proportion something which is
politically insignificant to Austria?
With the dates I'm likely to get for a Holiday, I'm going to have to
choose between Austria, Switzerland, and Italy, or more likely a bit of
all 3! Does that mean I'm a supporter of both the Nazi's and the Mafia?
I could go to Norway but I work for Norwegians and have a damaged
opinion of them just now!
JIM
Dave Manby
of bookings had not been made. (if you see what I mean)
I was back in the UK by the time the earthquake happened.
In article <87n651$l5e$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Mark Rainsley
<ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> writes
>--
>Mark Rainsley
>The UK Rivers Guidebook
>www.guidebook.free-online.co.uk
>
>
>
--
Dave Manby
<mb...@american.hasharon.k12.il> writes
>
>
>Dave Manby wrote:
>
>>
>> >>Not sure I see this myself; certainly not where whitewater tourism is
>> >>concerned. I'm not saying this is ideal, it's just how it is. Let's face it;
>> >>however worthy, the sports embargo on South Africa didn't exactly bring the
>> >>Apartheid movement to it's knees, did it?
>> No but many south African whites started to reaise that their status quo
>> was perhaps not their God Given Right. It had never occured to them the
>> political system they were living under was wrong and a seed of doubt
>> was sown - and from acorns....
>
>My girlfriend as well as about one third of my school is South African, and I
>spent considerable time there last summer 'quizzing' the locals about apartheid
>and the changes.. I would have to say that most white South Africans always knew
>that there was something essentially wrong about apartheid (at least for the
>majority of the 20th century), but were very used to their historically isolated
>and protective status. The international sanctions as well as the atheletic
>boycotts did little to plant seeds of impropriety; rather it let them know the
>world was on to it and the days of white rule were numbered. The next step was
>the
>fear and concern of *how* it would all change, not the realization that it
>*should* all change.
a) Aparteid has not been in place for the majority of the 20th
century.
b) Most white south africans under 25 maybe 30 knew that aparteid
was questionable. Rian Malan's grand father certainly did not know
aparteid was wrong - he instigated it. (read My Traitor's Heart by Rian
Malan for an excellent book on the problems of being a liberal white in
south africa. No just read it it is an excellent book.)
c) Despite the ANC asking for international sanctions they were
never imposed.
I cannot claim any moral high ground on this - our family were part of
the great white (liberal) flight in the 60's. (the 2nd white flight is
now on and not neccessarily by the liberals.) We left after Sharpsville
and the fact that my dad was getting worried that my mum felt that
voting for Helen Suzman was not enough! Boycotting the country by not
staying to fight the change is not the same as boycotting by not going!
I have friend who went back to help the revolution. Obviously they
remain nameless. I never did. I have always had the principal that I
would not go back till the government changed. Since the government
changed I have not had the time.
>
>I don't believe a population that truly beleived in its ways would care less
>about
>private recreationalists boycotting them. Who has run the Euphrates in Iraq
>lately? Our avoidance has little impact on local politics or attitudes.
>Fortunately, in RSA, this wasn't the case. Unfortunately, in Iraq, it is.
The euphrates in Iraq would be Very difficult to run as most if not all
the water is used for irregation and has been for centuries.
Dave Manby
and been to Austria has enjoyed Austria.
How many who went were black?
Declared their Jewishness? Were Gay?
Were Rommanys?
Asian?
Open Boaters!
nak...@my-deja.com
Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> elected Austrian government
> and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle
there
> anymore. At least, I won't.
>
I guess then that rules out China, most of Africa a good chunk of South
America, Indonesia and a few states in USA like South Carolina, any
states with freemen or militias as well. Interesting that some great
paddling is to be had in some of those places. 27% of the austrian vote
was responsible and there is at least a democratic process in place. If
the majority allow the 27% minority bigot voice that it has stupidly
enabled to gain power, to accomplish anything I will be surprised. The
lesson is VOTE, pay attention, participate and WAKE UP! It's more an
indictment of lazy coalition making and power seeking individuals than
Austrians IMO. Let the re-adjustment happen before we foreigners tromp
all over wagging fingers and dishing out judgement. Boycots and
sanctions have a history of boomeranging, look at Iraq and Afghanistan,
Mandela was even against it. It may be better to think globally and act
locally and combat the same attidudes in your backyard, I'm sure they
are there. It takes more commitment and less instant gratification than
'social action by paddle venue choice'.
Wilko
> The majority of people - no everyone who has added to this discussion
> and been to Austria has enjoyed Austria.
Dunno about "majority", but I must admit that most of my trips there
were enjoyable, even though we ran into some little things that can go
wrong on each paddling trip (The police wanted to see some
identification from my buddy Steven, when he was trying to hitch a ride
back to the put-in, dressed in paddling gear... Of course he didn't
have any ID on him. He then boldly asked them to drive him up to the
put-in, but they declined! :-))
> How many who went were black?
I met UK.RBP'er Dean there, and he seemed to have a good time...
> Declared their Jewishness? Were Gay?
> Were Rommanys?
> Asian?
> Open Boaters!
Yikes! :-)
Steve Frazier paddled his open boat there, and even though he didn't
like the kind of white water, and I think he even had to bail out once,
he wasn't kicked out of the country.
Mind you, he's an open boater, he has a beard, he is from the U.S. and
he doesn't speak a word of German! I'm still surprised they let him into
Austria in the first place! ;-)
--
Wilko van den Bergh - Quibus(at)europe(dot)com
Eindhoven - The Netherlands - Europe
--- "Look Mum: No sense!" ---
Michiel Verhoef
nak...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <389A8570...@wkap.nl>,
> Michiel Verhoef <michiel...@wkap.nl> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I guess this only goes for the Europeans but considering the newly
> > elected Austrian government
> > and its neo-nazi members I don't think it is appropriate to paddle
> there
> > anymore. At least, I won't.
> >
> I guess then that rules out China, most of Africa a good chunk of South
> America, Indonesia and a few states in USA like South Carolina, any
> states with freemen or militias as well. Interesting that some great
> paddling is to be had in some of those places. 27% of the austrian vote
> was responsible and there is at least a democratic process in place. If
> the majority allow the 27% minority bigot voice that it has stupidly
> enabled to gain power, to accomplish anything I will be surprised. The
> lesson is VOTE, pay attention, participate and WAKE UP! It's more an
> indictment of lazy coalition making and power seeking individuals than
> Austrians IMO. Let the re-adjustment happen before we foreigners tromp
>
I'm afraid it wasn't. Most of the votes were protest votest against the
other
Austrian parties. Unfortunately these were enough to get the rightwings in
to
the government.
> all over wagging fingers and dishing out judgement. Boycots and
> sanctions have a history of boomeranging, look at Iraq and Afghanistan,
>
Sometimes a boycot supports the people who fight dictatorships in their own
countries.
Yes, people suffer from boycots, and sometimes the good suffer with the
bad, but in the
end it serves a purpose.
> Mandela was even against it. It may be better to think globally and act
> locally and combat the same attidudes in your backyard, I'm sure they
> are there. It takes more commitment and less instant gratification than
> 'social action by paddle venue choice'.
I never said I didn't "combat the same attitudes in my backyard". And yes,
I do vote, because I feel that if people don't vote they have no right to
criticize
the government (well, in The Netherlands that is. I'm not referring to
countries
whithout a freedom of speech and possibility to vote). Overhere there are
to many
people whining about the government but who do not show up to vote.
Anyway, the most lousy excuse I have seen 'till this date is that because
the nazis
have been elected democratically the world should accept it and act like
it's normal.
And yes, my feelings about nazism and similar government forms does rule
out
countries like China, Indonesia etc. and in the 80's South Africa. Now
things in SA
have changed (at least legally) it is time to make sure the new policy is
supported
by the rest of the world (which is currently happening so this is a good
thing imo).
Right, nuff said about this political stuff. I think most people got the
message (whether
they agree or not) so I'll keep my mouth shut now.
Happy paddling,
Michiel
Kris Waring
Chris N <obses...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:87n570$h5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Kris Waring" <kwa...@beieurope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Kris Waring??? This is really THE Kris Waring??? The downriver STAR
> who won a silver medal in the BUSA team event with a bunch of wasters
> from Aberdeen a few years back?? It couldn't possibly be, or could it??
>
So would that make you the same Chris Norbury who SWAM the course in his
individual run on that same year. Town Falls was it not? Do I not recall
that you threw up half way down the course or something? Something to do
with too many fried eggs? Or was it too much beer????
Kris
Darth Rival
>
> Steady on!
>
> I think this point has already been done to death!
So, yer sayin' that you don't feel I have any right to add my opinion on
the matter? Can you say "net-Nazi"?
>
> > =========================================================
> > Richard Hopley, Rockville, MD, USA.........(301) 330-8265
> > Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
> >
> Perhaps you should add politics to that given your
> obviously strong feelings on this!
>
> Kris
Duhhhhhhh, I don't want this to come as a shock to you, Kris, but
"politics" is the topic of this thread. Anyone who does NOT have strong
feelings about fascism is a poor specimen of humanity. And anyone who
would try to quell any criticism of fascism...
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
riverman
Dave Manby wrote:
riverman wrote:
> >My girlfriend as well as about one third of my school is South African, and I
> >spent considerable time there last summer 'quizzing' the locals about apartheid
> >and the changes.. I would have to say that most white South Africans always knew
> >that there was something essentially wrong about apartheid (at least for the
> >majority of the 20th century), but were very used to their historically isolated
> >and protective status. The international sanctions as well as the atheletic
> >boycotts did little to plant seeds of impropriety; rather it let them know the
> >world was on to it and the days of white rule were numbered. The next step was
> >the
> >fear and concern of *how* it would all change, not the realization that it
> >*should* all change.
>
> a) Aparteid has not been in place for the majority of the 20th
> century.
>
Well, OK. That was a bit sweeping on my part. Apartheid had its unofficial roots from
the 1800s, but its legal roots from the Lands acts in '13 and '36 and the Group Areas
and Pop. Registration acts of 1950. It all started legally falling apart in the
1990s... What I meant was 'during the majority of its run (1948-1994), there were a
tremendous number of people who knew it was essentially wrong.' I think your own
experience there probably bears this out, right?
>
> b) Most white south africans under 25 maybe 30 knew that aparteid
> was questionable. Rian Malan's grand father certainly did not know
> aparteid was wrong - he instigated it. (read My Traitor's Heart by Rian
> Malan for an excellent book on the problems of being a liberal white in
> south africa. No just read it it is an excellent book.)
A very nice elderly couple I met in Krueger Park summed it up by saying 'Before,
things were good, but wrong. No, things are right, but bad." However, its certainly
true that there were many boer-ish folks who never felt it was wrong or bad; rather
that it was not only right, but essential! We camped out for a few days in Lesotho
with Jan Smuts great-grandson (himself an austere old professor), and heard much
about the historical opposition to apartheid.
> I have always had the principal that I
> would not go back till the government changed. Since the government
> changed I have not had the time.
You gotta go back and see! Its the only country I've ever visited that made the
situation in Israel look normal.
> > Who has run the Euphrates in Iraq
> >lately? Our avoidance has little impact on local politics or attitudes.
> >Fortunately, in RSA, this wasn't the case. Unfortunately, in Iraq, it is.
>
> The euphrates in Iraq would be Very difficult to run as most if not all
> the water is used for irregation and has been for centuries.
>
See? My point exactly! They could care less about a recreational boater boycott!
My point *really* being: A country that believes in it's political stance would not
care about a recreational boater boycott, and not be impacted by it. RSA was not a
good case in point: the population did not inherently support apartheid on moral
grounds; only on economically advantageous ones, and increasingly knew the end would
have to come sooner or later. International sanctions and boycotts were probably
secondary to the fall of apartheid; it was the growing public sentiment that did it.
That is the same thing that will keep the lid on Austria: not some recreational
boater boycott.
Nonetheless. most Amerricans were happy to boycott Krugerrands and SouthAfrican
products; not because we felt it would bring down apartheid; but because *we* felt
better about ourselves by doing it. In the same way, If Michiel wants to boycott
Austria, *he'll* feel better about himself, and that's important.
John Fereira
Chris N
>
> You mean too much English beer?
>
Well it wasn't very likely to be American beer - there's an oxymoron for
you.
DaveF01483
<ma...@guidebook.free-online.co.uk> writes:
>If don't wish to pursue this conversation, fair enough.
>
>The above qualities are ingrained from my career training...
>
Looks like you've found someone else who's crossed you off their Xmas card
list--
I'm sure you won't let it upset you too much!!
Regards
Dave Francis
Steve Cramer
>
> "Kris Waring" <kwa...@beieurope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Steady on!
> > I think this point has already been done to death!
>
> Duhhhhhhh, I don't want this to come as a shock to you, Kris, but
> "politics" is the topic of this thread. Anyone who does NOT have strong
> feelings about fascism is a poor specimen of humanity.
About? Sure you don't mean "against"?
> And anyone who would try to quell any criticism of fascism...
...might just be someone who wandered in looking for discussion about
boating. Not moi, of course.
--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
Everyone has to believe in something. I believe I'll go boating
John Fereira
>
>
>>
>> You mean too much English beer?
>>
>Well it wasn't very likely to be American beer - there's an oxymoron for
>you.
If you're definition of American beer only includes Bud/Coors/Miller, you're
right. However, I recently read that there are over 1500 microbreweries in
operation across the U.S., and there are quite a few breweries that produce
larger quantities that those that bash American beer don't know about. Try an
Anchor Steam, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Blue Moon Belgian white, or one of the
thousands of beers from microbreweries (like Ommegang Hennepin).
Tooth Fairy
Fucking hell, 83 replies to Michiel's thread, and still counting.
Just goes to show what happens when you cross-post to those bozos on
the other side of the pond. Too many small-minded, clueless yanks with
nothing better to do than get on their high horses and rant on, and on,
and on.
At least most of them will never even be able to visit Austria anyway:
what is it, something like 5% of Americans hold passports...?
That statistic will forever amuse me.
I'll be the one on the Sanna in June.
Let them eat cake.
--
TF
FLKa...@hotmail.com
get in here, unlike the rest of the worlds population. When you are
already here, where do you need to go? My friend from Grand Cayman
says it is the best place to live! Then why do you damn brits (cant
really call them that I guess) keep comming to the states to shop at
our malls, see our movies, etc, etc. Not that I mind, it is good for
us. But it does say something.
I've been to Ireland, Great Britain, Italy, France, Australia, and New
Zealand. And I can tell you, the only one I'm itching to go back to
would be Autralia. Good people down there. (I guess thats why the
brits sent them away.)
They each have good points:
France: food, mmm. Except that Tartar stuff. Raw beef?!?!? Healthy!
Ireland: great hills
Great Britain: well...um...Scotland!
New Zealand: Where to begin! Great geography most of all.
Australia: Good people, roos, food, boomerangs, heat, seems more laid
back.
And, they all have bad points. Some more than others.
But give me the good ole USA. I wouldnt mind spending some time in
Australia if I could get a work visa. But I wouldnt live anywhere on
earth if I had to give up U.S. citizenship (or my passport!). It is
just too powerful. And you can be happy, because I wont go to
Austria. If I did, I'd only see what was 100 yards from the embassy
anyway.
JasonN
Mary Malmros
Tooth Fairy <the_too...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>Fucking hell, 83 replies to Michiel's thread, and still counting.
>
>Just goes to show what happens when you cross-post to those bozos on
>the other side of the pond. Too many small-minded, clueless yanks with
>nothing better to do than get on their high horses and rant on, and on,
>and on.
The house is now accepting wagers on how many replies THIS piece of
flamebait will result in.
>At least most of them will never even be able to visit Austria anyway:
>what is it, something like 5% of Americans hold passports...?
>
>That statistic will forever amuse me.
It makes a little more sense if you think about some simple geographical
facts. The USA has a land area of 3.7 million square miles (9.6 million
square kilometers). By contrast, the land area of the UK is just over
94,000 square miles (245,000 square kilometers); France is 211,000 square
miles (547,000 square kilometers); Germany is 138,000 square miles
(357,000 square kilometers); and Austria is 32,000 square miles (84,000
square kilometers) -- just about half the size of New England, which is
one of the smaller parts of the United States, geographically speaking.
Now, I can't speak for my fellow USAians, but I suspect that if we needed
passports to go to the next state over, probably most of them would have
a passport in good working order. But we don't need a passport to vist
the next state over. We don't even have to have a passport to visit
Canada or Mexico, in many circumstances.
So, be amused all you like. Just realize that it means something
altogether different to be a stay-at-home, as evidenced by not having
a passport, when "home" encompasses 3.7 million square miles and has
a couple of geographically large and pleasant neighbors who are very
amiable about letting you come over to play. Oh, and a word of advice:
should you decide to visit the paddling venues of the USA, you might
wish to refrain from using the expression "yank" to refer to people.
You will get at best a puzzled look and at worst a knuckle sandwich,
and many folks are likely to think you're purposely being offensive.
Assuming that that is NOT your intention, this is a misunderstanding
that you would probably want to avoid.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
Jim Wallis
JIM
Matt Wetherill
of the finest Weissen (sp?) that I have ever tasted.
But on the subject of beer (one of my favourites :-)) and national stereo
types - a lot of Americans labour under the misapprehension that all British
beer is warm and flat :-)
Matt
John Fereira <ja...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:87ru13$5sd$3...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
> In article <87pmpa$suf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Chris N <obses...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> You mean too much English beer?
> >>
> >Well it wasn't very likely to be American beer - there's an oxymoron for
> >you.
>
Jez Kent
> Then why do you damn brits (cant
> really call them that I guess)
You can if you like
> keep comming to the states to shop at
> our malls,
Because, sadly, for some shopping is a holiday leisure activity
> see our movies, etc etc
and like any population we are a mixture of many different people with
esoteric tastes.
:-)
For a thread that started as a protest to nationalism this one sure is
going in strange directions. Enjoy your country and any others you
visit. I sure want to do so.
--
Jez Kent - Reading, UK
"Life is like a wild tiger, you can either lie down and let
it lay its paw on your head or sit on its back and ride it!"
Wilko
> Only 5% have passports? Well of course, you dont need a passport to
> get in here, unlike the rest of the worlds population.
Actually, you do need a passport to get into the U.S., even if you're
British, which I suspect our Tooth Fairy is.
> When you are already here, where do you need to go?
I think that travelling is about seeing the world (which so
inconveniantly happens to be largely outside the borders of the U.S. of
A) with an open mind, getting a taste of other cultures, meeting people
that have a different set of norms values and beliefs and maybe learning
something from that.
By keeping to your own corner of the world, how will you ever be able to
look at everything else around with a realistic view? Your outlook will
be completely coloured by your own community, not taking into account
the fact that reality might be a lot dfferent from what you see.
> My friend from Grand Cayman says it is the best place to live!
So, what does it mean what one person says?
I would feel very strange indeed if my sense of exploration, adventure
and my interest in other countries and cultures had been limited to the
place that I live, no matter how wonderful that place can be. There is
just so much more out there to explore, experience and see.
> Then why do you damn brits (cant
> really call them that I guess) keep comming to the states to shop at
> our malls, see our movies, etc, etc. Not that I mind, it is good for
> us. But it does say something.
Yep, it says that there are many people who enjoy coming to your country
to see it for a short period, but that they would never want to live
there (FYI: it's possible to see U.S. movies without coming to the U.S.
:-)).
> I've been to Ireland, Great Britain, Italy, France, Australia, and New
> Zealand. And I can tell you, the only one I'm itching to go back to
> would be Autralia. Good people down there. (I guess thats why the
> brits sent them away.)
So, what does it mean that you have been there? Have you taken the time
so live with those people, to try to speak their language, eat their
food, experience their culture and try to adjust to their community?
Or did you just pass through, as if you were at an attraction in Disney
Land, where you just sit back and let everything happen around you,
sipping your coke and taking pictures?
There are many ways to get to see countries, but I'm not sure that just
passing through them, not needing to speak the language (which comes to
the next point: you obviously haven't visited more than one country
where they didn't speak your lingo, very brave!), not taking the time
and effort to adjust to their culture and keeping your expectations at
the same level as they were in your home town helps to get to know those
countries and cultures.
> They each have good points:
> France: food, mmm. Except that Tartar stuff. Raw beef?!?!? Healthy!
Hmm, is that all that you remember from being to France? How about
beautiful scenery, very varied country, lots of art, colourful history,
ancient buildings, jeu de boules, wine, wonderful white water, etc. etc.
> Great Britain: well...um...Scotland!
Of course Scotland is a wonderful area of the country, but there are
plenty of great cycling and hiking areas in England and Wales too,
besides there being things like a warm breakfast, incredible accents,
interesting museums, colourful history, ancient buildings, quite a lot
of rain, and from what my British friends tell me, some interesting
white water too.
> And, they all have bad points. Some more than others.
:-)
> But give me the good ole USA.
I won't bore you with a list of good and bad points about the U.S.,
suffice to say that just like everywhere else, both are part of the
country and culture. I just can't see that warrant it to be called so
"good ole", great and wonderful when compared to other countries.
The bad points simply make up for the good ones, making it as average as
everyone else's country, it's just another interesting place to visit,
where I'm glad to go to (and afterwards am glad to leave :-) ), but
nothing more than that.
> I wouldnt mind spending some time in
> Australia if I could get a work visa. But I wouldnt live anywhere on
> earth if I had to give up U.S. citizenship (or my passport!). It is
> just too powerful.
Yeah, just too powerful: that passport of yours works great, except that
in quite a bunch of situations you attract the attention of people that
you had rather stay away from. Of course, the chance of your style of
clothing or the use of your language giving you away is still there too.
> And you can be happy, because I wont go to
> Austria. If I did, I'd only see what was 100 yards from the embassy
> anyway.
Yeah, and as history has shown, the U.S. embassy is probably the first
thing that they'll blow up, so if you stay within a hundred yards of it,
you stand a good chance of being blown up with it. :-)
Is it so difficult to open your eyes and see the rest of the world, or
are you just afraid that opening your eyes might show you that there are
other places in the world that are more
interesting/friendly/tolerating/whatever than your neck of the woods?
--
Wilko van den Bergh - Quibus(at)europe(dot)com
Eindhoven - The Netherlands - Europe
--- "Look Mum: No sense!" ---
starspang...@my-deja.com
>
> (snip)
I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan thread,
one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone for whom
English is not his mother tongue. Go on then, Ratt, Mary; write
something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you seriously,
if you can write it in Dutch.
btw Ratt, you should brush up on your Hans Christian Andersson. When I
was a kid, fairies lived at the bottom of the garden. And were
invariably female.
Proost.
Steve Balcombe
>Yeah but does it match up to a good pint of Theakstons?
Did you ever drink Theakstons when it was still brewed at Masham?
Old Peculier was thick and syrupy, with a unique hint of blackcurrant.
Once it moved to Carlisle (mid seventies I think) it was never the
same again.
Steve B.
Steve Balcombe
>Tooth Fairy <the_too...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>...Too many small-minded, clueless yanks ...
>...you might
>wish to refrain from using the expression "yank"
Small-minded is ok, clueless is ok, yank is not! <grin>
Steve Balcombe.
Steve Balcombe
[snip]
>I would feel very strange indeed if my sense of exploration, adventure
>and my interest in other countries and cultures had been limited to the
>place that I live, no matter how wonderful that place can be. There is
>just so much more out there to explore, experience and see.
One of the most powerful travelling experiences I have ever had was
to a place I definitely wouldn't want to live - Poland when it was still
under Communist rule.
SB.
Wilko
> Wilko wrote
> >
> > (snip)
>
> I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan
thread,
> one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone
> for whom English is not his mother tongue.
Ehm, I think this is a compliment, so thank you if it was,
but what does "erudite" mean?
> Go on then, Ratt, Mary; write
> something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you
> seriously, if you can write it in Dutch.
Don't bait them: I have been fooled by one of the regulars of this
forum who started posting in Dutch, as a reply to one of my remarks on
RBP.
It turned out he had a Dutch student in his class who translated
everything that rascal wanted to say into Dutch... (Good ploy, Chris!)
:-)
For that matter, try writing something to Rattso in German, you'll be
very surprised (although he needs an electronic translator on his
website for translations into Swedish cook, Redneck and what-else :-))
> Proost.
Op Uw gezondheid! :-)
S.W. Cooper
and evil, and to be avoided.
Just irresistable when the student union bar is selling it off at a
pound a pint on a special.
The US has, apparently, more breweries than any other country in the
world now. Even more than Germany, although doubtless that's all the
fault of the communists.
I'll see what American beers are on offer at Battersea Beer Festival
tonight.
--
Castrate me to reply.
S.W. Cooper
Jez Kent wrote:
>
> FLKa...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Then why do you damn brits (cant
> > really call them that I guess)
> and like any population we are a mixture of many different people with
> esoteric tastes.
>
> For a thread that started as a protest to nationalism this one sure is
> going in strange directions.
>
How true. Start an anti-nationalism thread and what happens? We all
sit here saying 'my country's better than yours'. Which when you're
British you can at least do so with some assurance of being right.
Useless
[snip]
> How true. Start an anti-nationalism thread and what happens? We all
> sit here saying 'my country's better than yours'. Which when you're
> British you can at least do so with some assurance of being right.
I'm sure we can have a reasoned, sober discussion about this at the
weekend.
Chris Webster
/ \ DO RE MI DRINK, by Homer J. Simpson.
| |
| | *ahem* La la la la.... *ahem* LAAAAAAA!!
| __ __)
| / \/ \ DO...... the stuff... that buys me beer...
/\/\ (o )o ) RAY..... the guy that sells me beer...
/c \__/ --. ME...... the guy... who drinks the beer,
( ) FAR..... a long way to get beer...
\_ _-------' SO...... I'll have another beer...
| / \ LA...... I'll have another beer...
| | '\_______) TEA..... no thanks, I'm drinking beer...
| \_____) That will bring us back to...
|_____ | (Looks into an empty glass)
|_____/\/\
/ \ D'OH!
Melissa
<FLKa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:87sgja$rnf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[snip]
> > And, they all have bad points. Some more than others.
>
>
[snip]
I expect then, in all fairness, you're including this "....good ole
USA......" in this particular category?
In any case, I'm not so sure I'd agree with this statement - If you're
willing to open your eyes (and perhaps let your heart tag along), you'll
find that the good of most places (peoples) far outweighs the bad. It's
just that sometimes the 'bad' includes louder voices and bigger weapons (see
again: "...good ole......"). Neither quality, in my view, very attractive.
In addition to peoples and cultures (all interesting, be they good and/or
not so good at times), this entire planet is particularly beautiful. You
have every right to feel the way you do, and you therefore have every right
to miss so many of the wonders of this world.
One thing I've always wondered about - just because someone is born on a
particular piece of dirt, why must they spend their life trying to convince
others that it's the 'best' piece of dirt? Pointless, as far as I can see.
Just one person's view (from the seat of a wee boaty, of course!)
-Melissa
Jim Wallis
>
> Jim Wallis wrote in message <38A1DEB8...@cableinet.co.uk>...
> >Yeah but does it match up to a good pint of Theakstons?
>
> Did you ever drink Theakstons when it was still brewed at Masham?
> Old Peculier was thick and syrupy, with a unique hint of blackcurrant.
> Once it moved to Carlisle (mid seventies I think) it was never the
> same again.
>
> Steve B.
Since the Brothers sold the Brewery to Scottish and Newcastle (the evil
conglomerate!) the brewery has not closed! Theakstons are still brewing
beer in Masham although it is only delivered fairly locally (i.e. North
Yorks). They also still brew specials like the Masham Strong Ale, and
have brewery trips, a bar on site and a pub in the village. Of course
the Black Sheep Brewery is also in Masham, making it one of the top
places to go for a good pint of properly brewes real ale!
Anyway getting back to the point, yes I have had OP fresh from th
brewery, I'm not sure that it was blackcurrant I tasted but something
certainly made me want to chew!
JIM
Jim Wallis
> > Great Britain: well...um...Scotland!
>
> Of course Scotland is a wonderful area of the country, but there are
> plenty of great cycling and hiking areas in England and Wales too,
> besides there being things like a warm breakfast, incredible accents,
> interesting museums, colourful history, ancient buildings, quite a lot
> of rain, and from what my British friends tell me, some interesting
> white water too.
>
Well as an Englishman living in Glasgow I have to say that Scotland does
have it best! Although the city is a hole in my opinion, it is so close
to the mountains (bigger and spread over a larger area than the English
or Welsh mountains), which of course house the rivers! There is
tremendous variety of steep landscapes in Scotland and a wide choice of
river and Sea paddling. If I was really motivated I could paddle every
weekend on something that I would be hard pushed to equal in England!
Thats not to say there is nothing good in England, there is, but less of
it and further apart!
The question is can I handle living amongst all these anti-English Scots
for very much longer?
:-)
JIM
Melissa
Melissa <bonnyw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sa5oiih...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> <FLKa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87sgja$rnf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> > > And, they all have bad points. Some more than others.
> >
> >
> [snip]
>
> I expect then, in all fairness, you're including this "....good ole
> USA......" in this particular category?
> In any case, I'm not so sure I'd agree with this statement - If you're
> willing to open your eyes (and perhaps let your heart tag along), you'll
> find that the good of most places (peoples) far outweighs the bad. It's
> just that sometimes the 'bad' includes louder voices and bigger weapons
(see
> again: "...good ole......"). Neither quality, in my view, very
attractive.
>
Oops. Please 'snip' my sentence "In any case, I'm not so sure I'd agree with
this statement" (see above), and just read that paragraph from "If
you're.........". I'm not always as clear as I'd like to be. Sorry, and
thanks.
-Melissa
Dave Bradshaw
also complex and satisfying, something that disappeared when they
moved. I am talking as someone who had his first pint of OP when I was
15, and am approaching my 40th birthday.
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:29:28 +0000, "S.W. Cooper"
<s_w_c...@balls.hotmail.com> wrote:
>Brewing moved to Newcastle, but anyway it's the same stuff really, black
>and evil, and to be avoided.
>Just irresistable when the student union bar is selling it off at a
>pound a pint on a special.
>
>The US has, apparently, more breweries than any other country in the
>world now. Even more than Germany, although doubtless that's all the
>fault of the communists.
>I'll see what American beers are on offer at Battersea Beer Festival
>tonight.
>
>Steve Balcombe wrote:
>>
>> Jim Wallis wrote in message <38A1DEB8...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>> >Yeah but does it match up to a good pint of Theakstons?
>>
>> Did you ever drink Theakstons when it was still brewed at Masham?
>> Old Peculier was thick and syrupy, with a unique hint of blackcurrant.
>> Once it moved to Carlisle (mid seventies I think) it was never the
>> same again.
>>
>> Steve B.
Dave Bradshaw
------------------------------------------
Visit the Manchester Canoe Club Website at
http://www.manchestercc.dabsol.co.uk
------------------------------------------
Dave Bradshaw
try getting on the river at Masham, the locals do not like canoeists
at all, and there have been some recent problems.
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:41:39 +0000, Jim Wallis
<Jim.W...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>Steve Balcombe wrote:
>
>Since the Brothers sold the Brewery to Scottish and Newcastle (the evil
>conglomerate!) the brewery has not closed! Theakstons are still brewing
>beer in Masham although it is only delivered fairly locally (i.e. North
>Yorks). They also still brew specials like the Masham Strong Ale, and
>have brewery trips, a bar on site and a pub in the village. Of course
>the Black Sheep Brewery is also in Masham, making it one of the top
>places to go for a good pint of properly brewes real ale!
>
>Anyway getting back to the point, yes I have had OP fresh from th
>brewery, I'm not sure that it was blackcurrant I tasted but something
>certainly made me want to chew!
>
>JIM
Dave Bradshaw
Jim Wallis
>
> Here here. You can also paddle at nearby Sleningford mill, just don't
> try getting on the river at Masham, the locals do not like canoeists
> at all, and there have been some recent problems.
>
I understand Newcastle Uni tried to access at Masham a few months ago on
the advice of the river advisor. After a confrontation before they got
near the river the local bailiff was called. He explained the situation,
i.e. he couldn't let them get on for fear of a riot, and they found a
more suitable access point!
This is the second time that I know of NUCC getting misinformation from
a river advisor and having to change their plans following discussion
with anglers etc.
JIM
Rolph
>
> Jez Kent wrote:
> >
> > FLKa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Then why do you damn brits (cant
> > > really call them that I guess)
>
> > and like any population we are a mixture of many different people with
> > esoteric tastes.
> >
> > For a thread that started as a protest to nationalism this one sure is
> > going in strange directions.
> >
>
> sit here saying 'my country's better than yours'. Which when you're
> British you can at least do so with some assurance of being right.
>
> Castrate me to reply.
Have you seen the movie 'In the name of the father'?
Rolph
Mary Malmros
>starspang...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Wilko wrote
>> >
>> > (snip)
>>
>> I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan
>thread,
>> one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone
>> for whom English is not his mother tongue.
>
>Ehm, I think this is a compliment, so thank you if it was,
>but what does "erudite" mean?
Well-spoken! Which you are ;-)
>> Go on then, Ratt, Mary; write
>> something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you
>> seriously, if you can write it in Dutch.
>
>Don't bait them: I have been fooled by one of the regulars of this
>forum who started posting in Dutch, as a reply to one of my remarks on
>RBP.
Hey, you'll get no Dutch from me! French and Italian are about my
limit. One of my karate buds (a Mexican d00d) is helping me work
real hard with my Spanish in preparation for a trip somewhere south
next year (BTW, Mothra, dice que Mexico es muy peligroso ahora).
Aside from that, in German I can order a meal or find a hotel,
and in Japanese I can order a meal, say simple hi-howareyas, or
describe a fight ;-) But no Dutch. Sorry if that makes me
unworthy of being taken seriously ;-) but it's not commonly taught
here.
Michiel Verhoef
> starspang...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Wilko wrote
> > >
> > > (snip)
> >
> > I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan
> thread,
> > one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone
> > for whom English is not his mother tongue.
>
> Ehm, I think this is a compliment, so thank you if it was,
> but what does "erudite" mean?
>
Erudite could be translated to "erudiet" oftewel "welbespraakt". That was
a compliment Wilko :-)
Then again, calling someone "erudite" isn't always an invitiation to
jabber on *LOL* ;-)
>
> > Go on then, Ratt, Mary; write
> > something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you
> > seriously, if you can write it in Dutch.
>
> Don't bait them: I have been fooled by one of the regulars of this
> forum who started posting in Dutch, as a reply to one of my remarks on
> RBP.
>
> It turned out he had a Dutch student in his class who translated
> everything that rascal wanted to say into Dutch... (Good ploy, Chris!)
> :-)
>
leuke truc :-)
>
> For that matter, try writing something to Rattso in German, you'll be
> very surprised (although he needs an electronic translator on his
> website for translations into Swedish cook, Redneck and what-else :-))
>
Ach so, das wird' ich mal machen. Mal sehen ob ich immer noch die Deutsche
Sprache behersche.
*grin* Okay, it's not really fair, I've lived in Germany for five years ..
>
> > Proost.
>
> Op Uw gezondheid! :-)
Santjes,
Michiel
Michiel Verhoef
Jez Kent wrote:
<big snip>
> For a thread that started as a protest to nationalism this one sure is
> going in strange directions. Enjoy your country and any others you
> visit. I sure want to do so.
>
Sorry Jez, I never said _nationalism_ is wrong. What I said is _nazism_ is
imo wrong.
I don't mind someone being proud of their country, I do mind people not
accepting other
people because they are from another country or have another religion etc.
Michiel
Dave Kruger
>
> Steve Balcombe wrote:
> >
> > Jim Wallis wrote in message <38A1DEB8...@cableinet.co.uk>...
> > >Yeah but does it match up to a good pint of Theakstons?
> >
> > Did you ever drink Theakstons when it was still brewed at Masham?
> > Old Peculier was thick and syrupy, with a unique hint of blackcurrant.
> > Once it moved to Carlisle (mid seventies I think) it was never the
> > same again.
> >
> > Steve B.
>
> conglomerate!) the brewery has not closed! Theakstons are still brewing
> beer in Masham although it is only delivered fairly locally (i.e. North
> Yorks). They also still brew specials like the Masham Strong Ale, and
> have brewery trips, a bar on site and a pub in the village. Of course
> the Black Sheep Brewery is also in Masham, making it one of the top
> places to go for a good pint of properly brewes real ale!
>
> Anyway getting back to the point, yes I have had OP fresh from th
> brewery, I'm not sure that it was blackcurrant I tasted but something
> certainly made me want to chew!
>
> JIM
Yum. Yum. Beer is good.
Dave Kruger
Nice ASCII art!
Dave Kruger
> One thing I've always wondered about - just because someone is born on a
> particular piece of dirt, why must they spend their life trying to convince
> others that it's the 'best' piece of dirt? Pointless, as far as I can see.
>
> Just one person's view (from the seat of a wee boaty, of course!)
Good point, Melissa.
Dave Kruger
>
> starspang...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Wilko wrote
> > >
> > > (snip)
> >
> > I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan
> thread,
> > one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone
> > for whom English is not his mother tongue.
>
> Ehm, I think this is a compliment, so thank you if it was,
> but what does "erudite" mean?
>
> > something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you
> > seriously, if you can write it in Dutch.
>
> Don't bait them: I have been fooled by one of the regulars of this
> forum who started posting in Dutch, as a reply to one of my remarks on
> RBP.
>
> It turned out he had a Dutch student in his class who translated
> everything that rascal wanted to say into Dutch... (Good ploy, Chris!)
> :-)
>
> very surprised (although he needs an electronic translator on his
> website for translations into Swedish cook, Redneck and what-else :-))
How about Pig Latin?
Dave Kruger
>
> In article <87up9h$grk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Wilko <qui...@europe.com> wrote:
> >starspang...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> Wilko wrote
> >> >
> >> > (snip)
> >>
> >> I find it rather ironic that of all the posts in this gargantuan
> >thread,
> >> one of the most well-argued and erudite was written by someone
> >> for whom English is not his mother tongue.
> >
> >Ehm, I think this is a compliment, so thank you if it was,
> >but what does "erudite" mean?
>
>
> >> something, ANYTHING, in reply. I promise that I'll take you
> >> seriously, if you can write it in Dutch.
> >
> >Don't bait them: I have been fooled by one of the regulars of this
> >forum who started posting in Dutch, as a reply to one of my remarks on
> >RBP.
>
> limit. One of my karate buds (a Mexican d00d) is helping me work
> real hard with my Spanish in preparation for a trip somewhere south
> next year (BTW, Mothra, dice que Mexico es muy peligroso ahora).
> Aside from that, in German I can order a meal or find a hotel,
> and in Japanese I can order a meal, say simple hi-howareyas, or
> describe a fight ;-) But no Dutch. Sorry if that makes me
> unworthy of being taken seriously ;-) but it's not commonly taught
> here.
Dutch ... wasn't that Reagan's nickname?
Andrew Burns
>
> S.W. Cooper wrote:
<<<<snip>>>>
> > How true. Start an anti-nationalism thread and what happens? We all
> > sit here saying 'my country's better than yours'. Which when you're
> > British you can at least do so with some assurance of being right.
I may be wrong, but I think that that's meant in a humourous way...
> Have you seen the movie 'In the name of the father'?
Okay. Do you often rely upon Hollywood for political commentary, or
factual correctness?
Andy
Shawn W. Baker
> > Have you seen the movie 'In the name of the father'?
Andrew Burns wrote:
> Okay. Do you often rely upon Hollywood for political commentary, or
> factual correctness?
Reminds me of those old sketches on Saturday Night Live when Chris
Farley would be interviewing that week's big star host, and say, "Did
you see [movie] with [name of some unrelated star]? That was AWESOME!"
Okay, so what do political commentary, movies, or Saturday Night Live
have in common with paddling?
Shawn
bows out of this off-topic thread
--
Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N
© 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
ba...@montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/
rick etter
Very well said, through your bad teeth? <grin>
--
Canoe North!
Rick Etter
http://www.bright.net/~retter
Step outside...The Graphics are Amazing!
steve
John Fereira <ja...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:87ru13$5sd$3...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
> In article <87pmpa$suf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Chris N <obses...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> You mean too much English beer?
> >>
> >Well it wasn't very likely to be American beer - there's an oxymoron for
> >you.
>
Keith Meredith
steve <ste...@swithnell.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Now Bodds is on draft in NY the issue is over with!
Fine, but what about /real/ beer?
Best wishes
Keith