Caged magpies - good luck??
Patrick Fox
Hi
While out walking in the Somerset (UK) countryside recently, I was suprised
to come across a caged magpie by the side of the drive to a farm. It was
not a large cage, but the bird had food and water there, and was busily
hopping from side to side.
Aside from the cruelty issue of keeping a wild bird in a small cage, I was
puzzled as to why? Does anyone know of any reason for keeping magpies in
cages outdoors on farmland - from the logical (does it perhaps scare some
other birds away?) to the superstitious (good luck??)?
Cheers
Patrick
(patrick.fox at virgin.net - sorry, anti-spam measure).
David Kelly
Itsounds like Patrick saw a crow trap. The magpie attracts other magpies or
other corvids to the trap who enter and then cannot get out. The gamekeeper
can then destroy them
Cheers
David
Peter Bainbridge
Patrick Fox wrote
> I was suprised to come across a caged magpie....
Sounds like it might have been a Larsen (?) trap. The magpie attracts
more, which eventually leads to less. :-(
Pete.
ACredland
What you saw was most likely a Larssen trap. The "cage" is divided into two
sections. One houses the lure and the other is a trap to catch other magpies.
The
traps work well at this time of year when they are placed within the territory
of a
pair of magpies when the resident bird will attack the intruder and become
trapped.
The trapped bird can then be either killed of used as a lure for another trap.
Definitely not good luck for magpies!
Andrew Credland.
Chris Boone
Patrick Fox wrote:
> While out walking in the Somerset (UK) countryside recently, I was suprised to come across a caged magpie by the side of the drive to a farm. It was not a large cage, but the bird had food and water there, and was busily hopping from side to side. Aside from the cruelty issue of keeping a wild bird in a small cage, I was puzzled as to why? Does anyone know of any reason for keeping magpies in cages outdoors on farmland - from the logical (does it perhaps scare some other birds away?) to the superstitious (good luck??)?> Cheers
> Patrick
This device is called a Larsen trap and is much loved by gamekeepers and
others who wish to trim up the magpie population. They are generally
only used during the breeding season.
If you had looked closely you would have seen that there were two
compartments, one with the magpie in, which is legally required to have
a supply of food and water ( report if you see one without), and the
second compartment with a sprung lid held open by a dowel which is cut
in half, but held in position by the pressure of the lid. When a magpie
comes to investigate it lands on the perch which collapses, the lid
swings up and the bird is trapped. The trapped bird should also have
food and water.
--
Chris To email remove excess letters from virgin
Cynthia Andrews
Then what do they do with it? Do I want to know?
<//><
Cynthia / Southern California
"Someday we'll look back on all this and plow into a parked car"
Chris Boone wrote:
>
> Patrick Fox wrote:
>
> > While out walking in the Somerset (UK) countryside recently, I was suprised to come across a caged magpie by the side of the drive to a farm. It was not a large cage, but the bird had food and water there, and was busily hopping from side to side. Aside from the cruelty issue of keeping a wild bird in a small cage, I was puzzled as to why? Does anyone know of any reason for keeping magpies in cages outdoors on farmland - from the logical (does it perhaps scare some other birds away?) to the su
Malcolm Ogilvie
In article <6gg8qn$gp6$1...@nclient3-gui.server.virgin.net>, Patrick Fox
<"patrick.fox"@see.signature> writes
>Hi
>
>While out walking in the Somerset (UK) countryside recently, I was suprised
>to come across a caged magpie by the side of the drive to a farm. It was
>not a large cage, but the bird had food and water there, and was busily
>hopping from side to side.
>
>Aside from the cruelty issue of keeping a wild bird in a small cage, I was
>puzzled as to why? Does anyone know of any reason for keeping magpies in
>cages outdoors on farmland - from the logical (does it perhaps scare some
>
Was the cage in two parts, the Magpie in one while the other half was
empty and with a raised lid? If so, then what you saw was a Larsen trap
which is perfectly legal, under a general licence issued by the DoE (or
what used to be the DoE). There are strict conditions, including the
provision of food and water for the caged bird and regular visits, not
more than 24 hours apart, I think.
The major advantage of Larsen traps, which are widely used for trapping
crows, is that you can move them around. A fixed crow trap may capture
the local pair but you then have to wait for more crows to move into the
empty territory before you will catch any more. With the Larsen trap,
you move it from territory to territory for maximum effect.
That said, a lot of crow trapping is largely pointless unless carried
out very thoroughly and over very large areas.
The above is written to inform and should not be taken as meaning that I
support the use of such traps, though neither do I condemn their use out
of hand.
Malcolm
--
Malcolm Ogilvie, Isle of Islay, Scotland, U.K.
Tim Spring
I agree, they are sttill commonly used by farmers and others. I know
someone who released one, and got a mouthful from the farmer. I dont
know the legality, but it woulld be hard to stop. I would release them
every time and damage the cage.
tim
Peter Gallagher
Tim Spring <pea...@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
I hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in here, Tim, but I think you
should be advised that people are issued with licences to do this trapping
in cases where the local population ahve been judged to be of "plague"
proportions and a menace to local crops, etc...
You would most likely be in breach of the law if you intervene to release
a bird under such circumstances, and most certainly if you damage someone
elses property - i.e. the cage.
regards,
PeterG
--
Peter Gallagher, Amsterdam, Netherlands internet: pe...@xs4all.nl
" I used to finish every sentence I started, but now I just ...."
--my sister, Christine
Bobby Reynolds
Tim Spring <pea...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<352C018D...@globalnet.co.uk>...
> David Kelly wrote:
> >
> > Itsounds like Patrick saw a crow trap. The magpie attracts other
magpies or
> > other corvids to the trap who enter and then cannot get out. The
gamekeeper
> > can then destroy them
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > David
>
> I agree, they are sttill commonly used by farmers and others. I know
> someone who released one, and got a mouthful from the farmer. I dont
> know the legality, but it woulld be hard to stop. I would release them
> every time and damage the cage.
> tim
Then you would be the one who is breaking the law. Trespass and criminal
damage.
Bobby
Chris Boone
Tim Spring wrote:
>
> I agree, they are sttill commonly used by farmers and others. I know
> someone who released one, and got a mouthful from the farmer. I dont
> know the legality, but it woulld be hard to stop. I would release them
> every time and damage the cage.
> tim
This no doubt would give you great satisfaction, but have you thought of
the wider implications of your actions (besides the illegal act)
I live on a large Norfolk Estate where the Landlord has voluntarily put
in a lot of footpaths for the general public (with no subsidies!). Like
it or not, pheasant shooting takes place on the estate and Larsen traps
are used. I don't wish to get into a slanging match with you but you
must agree that the action you suggest is hardly going to make my
landlord, or like minded ones, enthusiastic about expanding the scheme
further, or recommending it to other farmers and landowners.
So Tim for the greater good of all of us keep within the law.
Cheers Chris To email remove excess letters from virgin
A.W. Wakelin
Peter Gallagher wrote:
>
> Tim Spring <pea...@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> >David Kelly wrote:
> >>
> >> Itsounds like Patrick saw a crow trap. The magpie attracts other magpies or
> >> other corvids to the trap who enter and then cannot get out. The gamekeeper
> >I agree, they are sttill commonly used by farmers and others. I know
> >someone who released one, and got a mouthful from the farmer. I dont
> >know the legality, but it woulld be hard to stop. I would release them
> >every time and damage the cage.
> >tim
>
> You would most likely be in breach of the law if you intervene to release
> a bird under such circumstances, and most certainly if you damage someone
> elses property - i.e. the cage.
> regards,
> PeterG
I can confirm that releasing bird in a Larsen trap is against the law.
The local Police Wildlife Liaison Officer told us that on NO ACCOUNT was
anyone to interfere with such a trap. If you observe the owner has not
attended the trap (i.e. no fresh water, dead birds) then inform the
police - DO NOT intervene yourself.
--
Andy Wakelin
Montrose
Scotland
e-mail: andy.w...@which.net
(Remember: Take out the anti-spam X's in the reply to field)
Jim Prall
I am pleased to see the well informed and balanced replies on
this question of agrarian trapping of crows or magpies.
My question is whether there is any research to confirm or
refute the belief that these corvids have any significant impact
on harvests. Do they actually eat enough grain to matter?
I know there is a whole tradition of making the traps and
licensing their use, but what data is there on impact beyond
"I see all these crows in my grain"?
--
-- Jim Prall | Gandalf Graphics Limited | Wise men create
-- Toronto, Canada | Indigo E-Print on-demand 4/4C | proverbs; fools
-- ._ ._ ._ ._ ._ ._| & 4-up imposed film & proofing | repeat them.
Chris Boone
Jim Prall wrote:
>
> I am pleased to see the well informed and balanced replies on
> this question of agrarian trapping of crows or magpies.
>
> My question is whether there is any research to confirm or
> refute the belief that these corvids have any significant impact
> on harvests. Do they actually eat enough grain to matter?
> I know there is a whole tradition of making the traps and
> licensing their use, but what data is there on impact beyond
> "I see all these crows in my grain"?
>
were after the grain, but from digging around for larvae in the soil.
Liberal use of pesticides has largely eliminated this problem.
The reason for trapping corvids, at least in Norfolk, is because of
their depradations on the game bird population.
Trapping corvids may be unpalatable to some but if they witnessed the
near 100 percent success of the corvids on the plover, redshank and
oyster catcher nests and young on our local water meadow they might
moderate their views.
--
Rex Bradley
In article <6h5ru5$t1k$2...@nclient3-gui.server.virgin.net>, Chris Boone
<"c.boone"@vvvvirgin.net> writes
>Jim Prall wrote:
Snip
>The reason for trapping corvids, at least in Norfolk, is because of
>their depradations on the game bird population.
>
>Trapping corvids may be unpalatable to some but if they witnessed the
>near 100 percent success of the corvids on the plover, redshank and
>oyster catcher nests and young on our local water meadow they might
>moderate their views.
>
their nest on our veranda too.
--
Arby
Malcolm Ogilvie
In article <sH3URUA6...@brad.demon.co.uk>, Rex Bradley
<br...@brad.demon.co.uk> writes
Now, now! There's no need to get emotive. Predators kill their prey,
they don't murder it.
r daggett
Jim Prall wrote:
>
>
> My question is whether there is any research to confirm or
> refute the belief that these corvids have any significant impact
> on harvests. Do they actually eat enough grain to matter?
> I know there is a whole tradition of making the traps and
> licensing their use, but what data is there on impact beyond
> "I see all these crows in my grain"?
>
which has a caged magpie sometimes - I was told that the reason
for trying to catch/kill magpies etc was to stop their predation
on pheasant chicks, not anything to do with grain.
(sorry if this is not relevant - I missed a lot of messages on the
group while on hols)
--
Rita Daggett (remove nospam for reply)
Rex Bradley
In article <vSc95JAf...@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Ogilvie
<MAOg...@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
Snip
>>>Trapping corvids may be unpalatable to some but if they witnessed the
>>>near 100 percent success of the corvids on the plover, redshank and
>>>oyster catcher nests and young on our local water meadow they might
>>>moderate their views.
>>>
>>They've (Magpies)just murdered the two almost fledged ring doves in
>>their nest on our veranda too.
>
>Now, now! There's no need to get emotive. Predators kill their prey,
>they don't murder it.
>
>Malcolm
Things are tough for the ring doves around here, today a fox took one in
the garden.
The foxes are around a LOT in daylight at the moment, I guess they're
weaning some cubs.
--
Arby
NBillSumne
Magpies (and jays) take a lot of young woodpigeons and collared doves but they
are certainly having no effect on the population : they are both lovely birds
but common to the extent of being pests. They have very vulnerable nests but
long breeding seasons and not only can afford high predation rates but need
them.
Most of us know that the RSPB are now culling crows and foxes on some reserves
because lapwings are disappearing rapidly. When a predator takes a variety of
prey species and other food types it is quite possible that it will wipe out
some of its less adaptable prey species. This, in my view, is indisputable and
is proven over and over again. You only have to look at instances when
non-indigenous predators such as cats, rats, and some snakes move onto an
island. They wipe out the easy prey and thrive themselves. We ourselves are
examples of this - with each species that we wipe out we continue to flourish
and move on to something else. If all the birds up the size of collared dove
disappeared we would probably lose sparrowhawks but not magpies and crows as
they have other food sources and are much more adaptable birds.
I could never kill anything myself but are glad that some people take
responsibility for culling - as long as its done discrimately as in the case of
the RSPB. Culling is the fall-back part of conservation, when all else i.e.
habitat and food preservation fails. And only once the research has been done
to prove the problem exists.
I could not support a magpie or even a squirrel cull on my 'patch' where I live
because from my observations over ten years the birds that have declined or
gone are some finches, yellowhammer, starlings, sparrows and house martins. And
the current opinions suggest reasons other than predation i.e. farming
practicies. 'Garden-resident' song-bird and corvid populations fluctuate but
there hasn't been a notable overall trend apart from an increase in collared
doves.
Murdered ? - I agree that this emotive. Blue tits don't murder caterpillars do
they ? Nature is cruel.
Neil Sumner
Jack Harrison
NBillSumne wrote:
>
> Magpies (and jays) take a lot of young woodpigeons and collared doves but they
> are certainly having no effect on the population : they are both lovely birds
> but common to the extent of being pests.
Jays common? I'll just look up my records for 1998.
One heard Santon Downham in January.
One seen Fisher's Green February. That's all.
I wish they were as common as they used to be.
Magpies certainly are very common. They now occur regularly in my
garden. Noisy family party at 0500 hours this morning, for example.
I wonder, do Magpies drive out Jays? (by competition rather than
directly) The only time I have seen any significant numbers of Jays in
the last year was at Wicken Fen where I saw no Magpies at all that day.
Jack
Mike Jackson
In article <199804181353...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, NBillSumne
<nbill...@aol.com> writes
>
>Most of us know that the RSPB are now culling crows and foxes on some reserves
>because lapwings are disappearing rapidly.
Have the RSPB changed their view? I thought the policy was to leave
predators to eat everything up so that eventually the predators
declined in number.
> the birds that have declined or
>gone are some finches, yellowhammer, starlings, sparrows and house martins. And
>the current opinions suggest reasons other than predation i.e. farming
>practicies.
Please don't bash the farmers. Many are taking great trouble to try to
achieve a balance between producing food and encouraging wildlife.
Unfortuantely for the birds we can't put the clock back 200 years and
bulldoze Milton keynes or flood everything from Peterboro' to the wash
to make wetland.
We are still taking an area the size of the Isle of white & putting it
under concrete, supermarkets, houses etc each year.
-- Mike
Madness - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Lee and Kath
Much as I like the doves, the do take over if you're not careful. They'll sit on
the bird table all day stuffing all they can into their beaks and no other bird
gets a look in. A friend ended up with virtually nothing else calling to her
garden. So boring.
Kath
Dave Stanley
r daggett wrote in message <35373A...@open.ac.uk.nospam>...
>Jim Prall wrote:
>>
>>
>> My question is whether there is any research to confirm or
>> refute the belief that these corvids have any significant impact
>> on harvests. Do they actually eat enough grain to matter?
>> I know there is a whole tradition of making the traps and
>> licensing their use, but what data is there on impact beyond
>> "I see all these crows in my grain"?
We have had problems with crows flattening barley, particularly near tall
trees. However, the real problem is lambing. If the lamb is slow to drop
both eyes and tongue are pecked out by the bird sat on the Ewes back! Not a
pretty site. A lamb with a split tongue cannot feed properly and they have
to be put down. We try to bring lambing Ewes inside to protect them. The
crows come into the sheds regularly but without loss of lambs so far.
paschal
I remember reading studies that were done a long time ago to look into the
impact of crows on crops. If I recall correctly, when they autopsied some
crows, they found them full of a lot of crop-destroying insects which
they'd consumed, and this suggested that crows can be a GOOD thing for
crops. If I can dig up the reference, I'll post it.
The only thing that bothers me about crows is that they steal the eggs and
babies of a lot of our songbirds here, even more than cats do - and that
would seem natural, but the last few years I've been alarmed at the
increasing *number* of crows we see; many more than I recall seeing, say,
ten years ago.
-Paschal
Md. suburbs of D.C.