Leak TL/12 PLus
Marc Williams
I have the chance to purchase 2 Leak TL/12 PLus poweramps.
What is a fair price for one in good working order?
Does anyone know of persons who can repair/maintain these amps if they dont
happen to be in good order? Any tips?
Regards,
--
Marc
Anthony Anson
from "Marc Williams" <ma...@nebadon.freeserve.co.uk> contains these words:
> Hi,
> Regards,
> --
> Marc
Nick Besley of the Emporium in Diss (Norfolk) would be able to tell
you their value and either he or I could have it 'fettled'.
(empo...@dircon.co.uk)
Unless it has already been done, it would pay you to have all the
passive components replaced.
--
Tony --==< tony....@zetnet.co.uk >==--
New and Secondhand Hi-fi, Stone Plinths for Turntables.
·%%%%%%·
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
Josef Schwarz
>Unless it has already been done, it would pay you to have all the
>passive components replaced.
...and kill the character of that lovely piece of audio equipment.
I've fixed many old tube (valve) amps, and there are some parts that
usually need replacing, like the 2W (or higher) carbon resistor
across the filter caps, other 'run of the mill' 20% carbon
resistors, especially those that have changed their nominal values by
more than 10%, often electrolytics (the HV ones only if they get hot
or the amp hums, or you find proper replacements that do not ruin
the cosmetics). I would not replace high stability carbon plate
(anode) and cathode resistors, and the coupling caps only if they are
leaking DC.
Most parts used in those old amps were used for a purpose, not just
because they were supplied by someone (which does not mean some
parts should not be replaced. Replace all resistors with metal films,
and maybe your precious vintage amp sounds completely dull afterwards.
To "Marc Williams" <ma...@nebadon.freeserve.co.uk:
If you want to find out more, get this excellent book: Morgan JONES,
Valve Amplifiers, Oxford etc. 1995, ISBN 0 7506 2337 3 (there may be
a second edition out by now). Buy a good soldering iron and get
started yourself. It's great fun (and an addictive hobby).
- Josef
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> tony....@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
> >Unless it has already been done, it would pay you to have all the
> >passive components replaced.
> ...and kill the character of that lovely piece of audio equipment.
No. Many of the old carbon resistors will have altered their
resistance. Some of the capacitors will have reduced capacitance, or
none at all. Tese WILL kill the character of the fine old piece of
audio equipment, believe me.
It is not a case of 'might be necessary', but 'must be done unless
you want serious and expensive damage to occur'.
> I've fixed many old tube (valve) amps, and there are some parts that
> usually need replacing, like the 2W (or higher) carbon resistor
> across the filter caps, other 'run of the mill' 20% carbon
> resistors, especially those that have changed their nominal values by
> more than 10%, often electrolytics (the HV ones only if they get hot
> or the amp hums, or you find proper replacements that do not ruin
> the cosmetics). I would not replace high stability carbon plate
> (anode) and cathode resistors, and the coupling caps only if they are
> leaking DC.
> Most parts used in those old amps were used for a purpose, not just
> because they were supplied by someone (which does not mean some
> parts should not be replaced. Replace all resistors with metal films,
> and maybe your precious vintage amp sounds completely dull afterwards.
> To "Marc Williams" <ma...@nebadon.freeserve.co.uk:
> If you want to find out more, get this excellent book: Morgan JONES,
> Valve Amplifiers, Oxford etc. 1995, ISBN 0 7506 2337 3 (there may be
> a second edition out by now). Buy a good soldering iron and get
> started yourself. It's great fun (and an addictive hobby).
> - Josef
> Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de
I can't argue with the advice - except that sweeping statement at
the head of it. You should try to replace like for like.
Josef Schwarz
>
>> >Unless it has already been done, it would pay you to have all the
>> >passive components replaced.
>
>> ...and kill the character of that lovely piece of audio equipment.
>
> No. Many of the old carbon resistors will have altered their
>resistance. Some of the capacitors will have reduced capacitance, or
>none at all. Tese WILL kill the character of the fine old piece of
>audio equipment, believe me.
>
> It is not a case of 'might be necessary', but 'must be done unless
>you want serious and expensive damage to occur'.
Hi Tony,
I most definitely would agree with "must be _checked_" to avoid
potential damage, but not at all with "all passive components
replaced".
>I can't argue with the advice - except that sweeping statement at the
>head of it. You should try to replace like for like.
One answers the other. Ok, seems we mean more or less the same thing.
In fact, if you look at this problem from the point of view of an
engineer who charges per hour and a customer who has to pay the bill,
your advice is quite sound, as it's a lot more work to find
and replace only those parts that need replacing. Much easier to rip
out everything and build up a new amp, especially with a pair of
amps, with the added advantage that the 'new' amp will last longer
without another fault developing. And even if it doesn't sound quite
the same, it'll be a good amp, if it was worth anything from the
beginning.
But then I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, and don't get paid for my
work hours other than in pleasure.
- Josef
Anthony Anson
> And even if it doesn't sound quite
> the same, it'll be a good amp, if it was worth anything from the
> beginning.
> But then I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, and don't get paid for my
> work hours other than in pleasure.
> - Josef
All the ones we do sound as good as the originals. But then, we give
that side of it to an enthusiastic professional. Anything solid-state
he will not touch!
Tony
Mike Coatham
dictates that the components you didn't replace will be the first to fail in
short order. No amplifier will perform as it's designer intended if
componentry is outside the tolerances of the originals - particularly the
caps, where 'leakage' will put DC volts onto the grids where there shouldn't
be any.
Josef Schwarz
Hello Mike,
I don't want to disagree with you on principle. But: I have never yet
seen a faulty electrolytic (mainly Siemens) in e.g. a Telefunken/
Tonographie V72 or V76 studio plugin, and the earliest V72 I laid my
hands on was from 1953. The same goes for Neumann supplies for the
U47 microphone of the same age.
I have seen many leaky film caps, especially the dark-brown resin
coated ones (these caused many fires in early TV sets), and the
"cream toffee" types (ERO mostly). The MKP types (they have clear or
light brown resin ends) are usually fine (WIMA, ERO).
A US friend of mine swears by old paper caps in McIntosh amplifiers,
although even NOS types don't last long. He says he's tried
everything else in them, but the amp just doesn't sound as good.
I can support this by own experience: I tried to build an exact copy
of my McIntosh MX-110 (tuner-preamp) line stage, but without
all the high&low filters, tone controls, etc., because that stage
sounds really good imo. I thought without all those unnecessary
components in the signal path and high quality new components, it
must sound even better. No way, the copied linestage sounds dull and
flat, and I can't say why, though i spent weeks on it trying
to get it right.
Also, you should never replace ceramic caps in a tuner, unless you
are sure that component is dead. They've used so many 'dirty tricks'
to get tuners stable, like components with complementary temperature
drift, you'll mess up the tuner completely.
So your "replace all caps" maybe wise to avoid Mr Murphy, but it also
may have undesireable effects.
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>All the ones we do sound as good as the originals. But then, we give
>that side of it to an enthusiastic professional. Anything solid-state he
>will not touch!
Tony,
Congratulations that you have such a person to do those
restoration jobs for you. They're getting very rare to find, here in
Germany most radio&TV engineers will flatly refuse to service any
piece of valve equipment, with the exception of some very few
specialized firms.
And an enthusiastic professional is of course much better than just
an enthusiastic amateur! :-)
- Josef
Anthony Anson
> Congratulations that you have such a person to do those
> restoration jobs for you. They're getting very rare to find, here in
> Germany most radio&TV engineers will flatly refuse to service any
> piece of valve equipment, with the exception of some very few
> specialized firms.
> And an enthusiastic professional is of course much better than just
> an enthusiastic amateur! :-)
> - Josef
Yes, very lucky. There are still old-fashioned, reactionary
stick-in-the-mud electronic engineers to be found - if you know where to look!
Tony
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> Also, you should never replace ceramic caps in a tuner, unless you
> are sure that component is dead. They've used so many 'dirty tricks'
> to get tuners stable, like components with complementary temperature
> drift, you'll mess up the tuner completely.
> So your "replace all caps" maybe wise to avoid Mr Murphy, but it also
> may have undesireable effects.
> - Josef
But there are no such litle tricks in TL (any numbers)
Tony
Josef Schwarz
>But there are no such litle tricks in TL (any numbers)
I take your word for it, as I don't know much about Leak
equipment myself. - What about the coupling caps? On holidays in
France I happened to read an article by Mr Jean Hiraga, French-
Japanese 'tube pope' in La Nouvelle Revue du Son, and he said
something like "preserve the Leak coupling caps if possible, they are
of very high quality and responsible for the sound" or something to
this effect.
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>Yes, very lucky. There are still old-fashioned, reactionary stick-in-the-
>mud electronic engineers to be found - if you know where to look!
The only place I'd know to look was under the dasies. Bill, language
lab technician at Bradford University Modern Languages Centre, with a
great love for 2A3 push-pull cinema organs, RAF electronics engineer,
always talking of the Aden or Jemen, and always good for a cuppa.
Proudly sitting over a huge EMI (I think) fridge-size all-valve mono
tape machine recording our "foreign babble". Famous words: "If it
works, leave it alone!" Language level dropped dramatically walking
through his swing doors.
What did you say? Old-fashioned? Reactionary? Stick-in-the-mud? All
of it, and a little more.
Sorry if this is off-topic, couldn't resist.
- Josef
Dave Plowman
Josef Schwarz <Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de> wrote:
> Proudly sitting over a huge EMI (I think) fridge-size all-valve mono
> tape machine
Probably a BTR2. More like the size of an Aga. But more durable. And
produced more heat.
--
Windows will never cease *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Anthony Anson
> I take your word for it, as I don't know much about Leak
> equipment myself. - What about the coupling caps? On holidays in
> France I happened to read an article by Mr Jean Hiraga, French-
> Japanese 'tube pope' in La Nouvelle Revue du Son, and he said
> something like "preserve the Leak coupling caps if possible, they are
> of very high quality and responsible for the sound" or something to
> this effect.
> - Josef
Yes, but there isn't any trickery to get over wandering values of
other components.
Leak (real Leak) equipment was made with high quality components
throughout - within reason.
They *COULD* have had silver wire wound transformers and chokes,
they *COULD* have hard-wired with silver, etc, but the cost would
have been so great that any improvement in quality would not have
been cost-effective.
Tony
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> Sorry if this is off-topic, couldn't resist.
> - Josef
Hmmm. I have two Leevers-Rich mono, all valve tape machines. They
are the size of washing-machines, and the three motors are almost in
washing-machine proportion too.
Tony
Josef Schwarz
>> Proudly sitting over a huge EMI (I think) fridge-size all-valve mono
>> tape machine
>Probably a BTR2. More like the size of an Aga. But more durable. And
>produced more heat.
I really can't remember what model it was, but it was definitely
engineered following the mechanical engineering principle: "If you
can do it mechanically, don't do it electrically". I wonder what
principle the electrical engineers followed. - But this is getting
very far away from the Leak TL/12 Plus, or is it?
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>Hmmm. I have two Leevers-Rich mono, all valve tape machines. They are
>the size of washing-machines, and the three motors are almost in washing-
>machine proportion too.
That sort of equipment in the house would definitely lead to open war
with my wife :-). And in a way it's sad a tiny little portable DAT
recorder easily outperforms these hefty chunks of precision
equipment, although it won't last a fraction of the lifetime of those
machines.
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>Yes, but there isn't any trickery to get over wandering values of other
>components.
Accepted.
>Leak (real Leak) equipment was made with high quality components
>throughout - within reason.
What do you mean by "real" Leak equipment? -
The only piece of Leak equipment that I own is a Trough Line tuner.
It works pretty well, but I can't stand it in the room because the
tar-insulated power transformer stinks the place out after a while.
It's much worse in this respect than the US-made H.H.Scott or Fisher
receivers I own. They, too, smell, but by far not as unpleasant. - Is
that strong smell typical of Leak equipment?
- Josef
Dave Plowman
Josef Schwarz <Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de> wrote:
> That sort of equipment in the house would definitely lead to open war
> with my wife :-). And in a way it's sad a tiny little portable DAT
> recorder easily outperforms these hefty chunks of precision
> equipment, although it won't last a fraction of the lifetime of those
> machines.
Although that's undoubtedly true, you have to remember that the BTR2 was
really the first(ish) practical tape recorder dating back to the early
50s. They were still in regular use up to fairly recently in the BBC, and
I'll bet are still in use somewhere round the world. I can't think of any
other thing, other than some mics, that have such a long working life in
the audio industry.
--
* Virtual reality is its own reward *
Josef Schwarz
>And in a way it's sad a tiny little portable DAT
>> recorder easily outperforms these hefty chunks of precision
>> equipment, although it won't last a fraction of the lifetime of
>those
>> machines.
>
>Although that's undoubtedly true, you have to remember that the BTR2
>was
>really the first(ish) practical tape recorder dating back to the early
>50s. They were still in regular use up to fairly recently in the BBC,
>and
>I'll bet are still in use somewhere round the world. I can't think of
>any
>other thing, other than some mics, that have such a long working life
>in
>the audio industry.
True, without any doubt. I talked to a guy from the "Deutsche Welle"
(something like the BBC World Service) recently, and he said his
journalists were crying out for tape-machines instead of all that
fancy digital stuff that always breaks down when you really need it.
But it's a losing battle, he said.
And of course, all that equipment is strictly for the broadcasting
band only, ie. 50 Hz to 15 KHz. Sometimes it's easy to increase
bandwidth a little, in other cases you can't.
Want a Telefunken M15 tapemachine? With a complete stereo kit?
Friend in Cologne has got two of them. But bring your own truck, and
a reasonable amount of cash.
- Josef
Dave Plowman
Josef Schwarz <Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de> wrote:
> Want a Telefunken M15 tapemachine? With a complete stereo kit?
> Friend in Cologne has got two of them. But bring your own truck, and
> a reasonable amount of cash.
Here's one for all you historians out there. The Germans pretty well
invented tape machines as we know them. The BTR1 was simply a re-badged
Telefunken - war spoils. But it was a 1/4in machine and ran at 15 and
30ips. Why? 15ips is 38.1 cms 30 is 76.2cms. Wouldn't 40 cms and 80 cms
have made more sense?
--
* When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded *
Anthony Anson
> That sort of equipment in the house would definitely lead to open war
> with my wife :-). And in a way it's sad a tiny little portable DAT
> recorder easily outperforms these hefty chunks of precision
> equipment, although it won't last a fraction of the lifetime of those
> machines.
> - Josef
I keep baiting the hook with them, but there can't be too many
bottom-feeding hi-fi freaks about, as I only get the occasional
nibble. The whole bait hasn't been taken.
If i don't get them out of the house soon, any dwindling chance of
anyone to wage outright war with will disappear for ever. <G>
Tony
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> What do you mean by "real" Leak equipment? -
After Rank bought Leak, some of the production went to the far east.
> The only piece of Leak equipment that I own is a Trough Line tuner.
> It works pretty well, but I can't stand it in the room because the
> tar-insulated power transformer stinks the place out after a while.
> It's much worse in this respect than the US-made H.H.Scott or Fisher
> receivers I own. They, too, smell, but by far not as unpleasant. - Is
> that strong smell typical of Leak equipment?
> - Josef
I have a stereofetic tuner, and that doesn't niff. I've repaired
Trough Lines, I've tested them, but I've never had one, so I couldn't
say. You could join the Leak Mailing List and ask there.
Tony
Anthony Anson
> Want a Telefunken M15 tapemachine? With a complete stereo kit?
> Friend in Cologne has got two of them. But bring your own truck, and
> a reasonable amount of cash.
> - Josef
Want two Leevers-Rich Tape Machines? Bring a truck and a reasonably
small amount of money! Better still, some old early breechloader or
muzzle-loader in reasonable condition.
Tony
James Perrett
Dave Plowman wrote:
>
> In article <200001141...@mk2.maus.de>,
> Josef Schwarz <Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de> wrote:
> > Want a Telefunken M15 tapemachine? With a complete stereo kit?
> > Friend in Cologne has got two of them. But bring your own truck, and
> > a reasonable amount of cash.
>
> Here's one for all you historians out there. The Germans pretty well
> invented tape machines as we know them. The BTR1 was simply a re-badged
> Telefunken - war spoils. But it was a 1/4in machine and ran at 15 and
> 30ips. Why? 15ips is 38.1 cms 30 is 76.2cms. Wouldn't 40 cms and 80 cms
> have made more sense?
>
I read the explanation somewhere in either an old HiFi for Pleasure mag
or Studio Sound. I don't remember exactly what it said but it went along
the lines of: if you've got a motor running at half mains frequency (say
25 rev/s) then it requires a capstan diameter of just under 0.5cm for 15
ips. I could well imagine that there was some slight rounding up to get
the imperial equivalent of the German operating speed but the article
had the real story.
James.
--
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* Southampton Oceanography Centre, *
* Empress Dock, Southampton SO14 3ZH, U.K. *
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Josef Schwarz
>Here's one for all you historians out there. The Germans pretty well
>invented tape machines as we know them. The BTR1 was simply a re-badged
>Telefunken - war spoils. But it was a 1/4in machine and ran at 15 and
>30ips. Why? 15ips is 38.1 cms 30 is 76.2cms. Wouldn't 40 cms and 80 cms
>have made more sense?
Well, Germans are not all that dogmatic about metric measures;
plumbing measures are still in inches, and a yardstick is generally
called "inchstick" (Zollstock), although it's long been in
centimeters.
I can only guess why they used "round" ips measures for
tapemachines - German radio was controlled by the Allies after the
war, and they decentralized public radio, and probably ordered the
equipment from Telefunken and other firms made to their
specifications, which used imperial measures.
They generally avoided "German" measures for political reasons.
Another example: the German "unit of conductance" is "Siemens"
(1/Ohm); they didn't like Siemens for understandable reasons, so the
unit is called mho (ohm in reverse) in English.
Anyone with a better explanation please correct me.
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>> Want a Telefunken M15 tapemachine? With a complete stereo kit?
>> Friend in Cologne has got two of them. But bring your own truck, and
>
>> a reasonable amount of cash.
>
>> - Josef
>
> Want two Leevers-Rich Tape Machines? Bring a truck and a reasonably
>small amount of money! Better still, some old early breechloader or
>muzzle-loader in reasonable condition.
What strange kind of audio gear is this? A perfect square wave
generator? :-)
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
(about his two Leevers-Rich mono, all valve tape machines):
>I keep baiting the hook with them, but there can't be too many
>bottom-feeding hi-fi freaks about, as I only get the occasional
>nibble. The whole bait hasn't been taken.
>
> If i don't get them out of the house soon, any dwindling chance of
>anyone to wage outright war with will disappear for ever. <G>
I'd donate them to a museum. Would be a shame to scrap them, and
there won't be many of those beasts around.
- Josef
Josef Schwarz
>> What do you mean by "real" Leak equipment? -
>
>After Rank bought Leak, some of the production went to the far east.
Oh, the solid state stuff, I remember. Just like what happened with
Marantz & other good names in audio. I remember the old Wharfedale
factory in Keighley, Yorkshire. Rank bought that one, too, and closed
it down. Took in some speakers I had blown out, and of course they
refitted them. Few machines in the place, everything done by hand.
Probably what brought them down eventually.
>I have a stereofetic tuner, and that doesn't niff. I've repaired Trough
>Lines, I've tested them, but I've never had one, so I couldn't say. You
>could join the Leak Mailing List and ask there.
Thanks for the info! I'll aks there, though I'm not desperate to get
it back into regular use.
- Josef
Anthony Anson
> I'd donate them to a museum. Would be a shame to scrap them, and
> there won't be many of those beasts around.
> - Josef
If I could find a museum with the space - - - -
Tony
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> What strange kind of audio gear is this? A perfect square wave
> generator? :-)
> - Josef
Extremely fast solid-state spherical projection apparatus with
in-tube heat expansion principle sound and visual effects generator.
Tony
Anthony Anson
from Josef_...@mk2.maus.sauerland.de (Josef Schwarz) contains
these words:
> Thanks for the info! I'll aks there, though I'm not desperate to get
> it back into regular use.
> - Josef
e-mail hjl...@egroups.com, and, IIRC, leave the subject line blank
and type 'subscribe hjl...@egroups.com' in the body of the message.
Tony
>
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