Amplifier to drive insensitive speakers?
John and Lucy Hayward-Warburton
I was wondering if readers had any recommendations for very simple
amplifiers to drive quite insensitive speakers? We have a pair of
ATCs (SCM20) which, we understand, are being under-driven by our
ancient, discrete-component, 50W/chan RMS amp, which has a huge
power supply and is probably capable of a good thwack of power every
now and then.
We should need no more than 200W/chan RMS, EQ is not required,
neither is a phono input stage (not that we avoid vinyl; we have an
outboard pre-amp for this). We are happy to home-make a passive
pre-amp (switches and a pot). I want good, clean power.
What should I be investigating? Home-built stuff with modules from
the electronic companies and another huge power supply, or something
commercial? We'll discuss budget later.
Yours,
John Hayward-Warburton
http://www.billabong-media.com
Kalman Rubinson
> What should I be investigating? Home-built stuff with modules from
> the electronic companies and another huge power supply, or something
> commercial? We'll discuss budget later.
Either home-built discrete or something commercial. I know of no modules which will give
you the power and quality necessary.
Kal
Roy Parrish
RMS outputs. For instance I've heard NAIMs driving ATC's and they don't
work. You need lots of real power to get the best out of these speakers and
it's not really because they are particularly insensitive. If you only
listen at low volumes then low powered amps will do nicely (they are NOT
hard to drive). However, if you want to listen at realistic volumes then you
will want a bit more power.
Here's an example:
I heard a pair of SCM10s (arguably slightly less easy to drive than the 20s)
hooked up to an AVI 250W/ch stereo amp with a power meter attached. We
listened to a recording of Sibelius violin concerto at what I would consider
to be sensible domestic levels. The introduction is quiet (mainly solo
violin) and the power meter showed fractions of a watt as the output. There
follow two stacatto chords on full orchestra, where the instantaneous power
demand was about 400W per channnel. That equates to a required RMS output of
about 250W/ch to avoid clipping. And there's the rub. If there's one thing
you want to avoid with ATC speakers it's amp clipping - the speakers will go
as loud as you're likely to want and it seems a shame to cripple them with
inadequate amps.
You suggest 200W/ch which is pretty sensible but they will take a lot more
if you feel like spending the money (the SCM20As have 375W/ch built in). My
own pocket and room being a bit on the modest side, I use AVI 150W monoblocs
with my SCM20s. Sometimes I do wish for a bit more headroom(mainly in
classical music where transients are very important rather than in rock
music). I'm unlikely however to go for bigger power amps without going
active.
Go for something with a high RMS output and transparency. The best I've
heard are AVI, Chord, Bryston and Quad (yes Quad, very old fashioned, but
very nice). I find the Chords a bit harsh at the top end and the Quads a bit
"fat", but it's marginal. The best of the lot would probably be ATC's own
power amps - but at some price.
Regards,
Roy.
John and Lucy Hayward-Warburton <hay-...@NOSPAM.billabong.demon.co.uk>
wrote in message news:7g754q$k48$1...@dylan.localdomain...
doctorjohn
tubes. In a 200 sq ft room, a vintage Marantz 8B (35 wpc) can drive it
beautifully, but soft clipping IS evident at peak. But the Marantz 9 and
McIntosh MC275 both do a more complete job, easily (both 75 wpc).
So, for QUALITY tube gears, I would say 75 wpc is already excellent. Less than
what you need with solid state.
John and Lucy Hayward-Warburton
> Roy Parrish wrote:
Thank you, both, very much for the advice. More is welcomed! But,
for now, we'll do some research, probably at English Audio in
Hereford, or somewhere in Birmingham.
JHW
sea...@my-dejanews.com
power if driven loud and with complex transient music.
You can get away with something like 60wpc but I found
that moving up to 150wpc monoblocs made a subtle but
nonetheless noticable difference. It's probably
also worth mentioning that ATC themselves recommend
solid-state power only, although imo. tube pre-amps
can work very well indeed.
If you're interested I have a pair of AVI monoblocs
for sale which you might want to consider given that
I'd sell them both for 600ukp. I got good results
with these until I went for active ATCs, and now
the AVI boxes are gathering dust and are looking
for a happy home. :)
Best wishes,
Sean.
In article <7g754q$k48$1...@dylan.localdomain>, John and Lucy Hayward-Warburton
<hay-...@NOSPAM.billabong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks for reading this.
>
> I was wondering if readers had any recommendations for very simple
> amplifiers to drive quite insensitive speakers? We have a pair of
> ATCs (SCM20) which, we understand, are being under-driven by our
> ancient, discrete-component, 50W/chan RMS amp, which has a huge
> power supply and is probably capable of a good thwack of power every
> now and then.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Anthony Edwards
>As elsewhere stated, the ATC SCM20s need a fair bit of
>power if driven loud and with complex transient music.
>You can get away with something like 60wpc but I found
>that moving up to 150wpc monoblocs made a subtle but
>nonetheless noticable difference. It's probably
>also worth mentioning that ATC themselves recommend
>solid-state power only, although imo. tube pre-amps
>can work very well indeed.
>
The AVI S2000MI 100wpc integrated will also work, although not so well
as the S2000MM monoblocs described. AVI & ATC have a certain synergy,
for several years Ashley James of AVI was also Sales Manager at ATC
and the two ranges are frequently sold together. The Cornflake Shop
[1] in London are imo the best AVI/ATC dealer around and their advice
is excellent and generally faultless; might be worth giving them a
call *and* they'll ship anywhere. If you do decide to pay them a
visit, it'll be well worth while; as well as being well looked after
there, there's three of the best record shops in the UK within walking
distance, HMV and Virgin in Oxford Street and Tower Records in
Piccadilly Circus. All three have jazz and blues sections which on
their own are bigger than most provincial record stores.
>If you're interested I have a pair of AVI monoblocs
>for sale which you might want to consider given that
>I'd sell them both for 600ukp. I got good results
>with these until I went for active ATCs, and now
>the AVI boxes are gathering dust and are looking
>for a happy home. :)
>
The best amplifier ever for the SCM20 passives was the AVI 250wpc
power amplifier which was around for a few years. This amp epitomised
absolutely clean, limitless headroom and power, only discontinued by
AVI as it was huge and extremely ugly (I actually liked it, it
resembled a small industrial power station in a big black case and had
enormous heatsink fins sticking out the back). These are quite rare
but you may be able to pick one up secondhand, The Cornflake Shop are
possibly the best people to advise you there too as they sold quite a
few and may occasionally get them back in part exchange, from people
upgrading to ATC SCM50A's and the like.
[1] The Cornflake Shop, 37 Windmill St, London, W1P 1HH. Tel: 0171
631 0472.
Anthony
Graham Glen
<ant...@catfish.nildram.co.uk> writes
>
>The AVI S2000MI 100wpc integrated will also work, although not so well
>as the S2000MM monoblocs described. AVI & ATC have a certain synergy,
>for several years Ashley James of AVI was also Sales Manager at ATC
>and the two ranges are frequently sold together. The Cornflake Shop
>[1] in London are imo the best AVI/ATC dealer around and their advice
>is excellent and generally faultless; might be worth giving them a
>call *and* they'll ship anywhere. If you do decide to pay them a
>visit, it'll be well worth while; as well as being well looked after
>there, there's three of the best record shops in the UK within walking
>distance, HMV and Virgin in Oxford Street and Tower Records in
>Piccadilly Circus. All three have jazz and blues sections which on
>their own are bigger than most provincial record stores.
>
How can you say "three of the best" and "jazz" without mentioning Rays
Record Shop? Also within walking distance.
Graham
--
Graham Glen gra...@irving.demon.co.uk
".. and it always was possible to measure the distance between so-called
management and the so-called creative by the time it took for a memo to go
in one direction and a half-brick to come back in the other."
Dennis Potter
sea...@my-dejanews.com
In article <372ef2a0...@goodnews.nildram.co.uk>,
ant...@catfish.nildram.co.uk (Anthony Edwards) wrote:
>
> The AVI S2000MI 100wpc integrated will also work, although not so well
> as the S2000MM monoblocs described. AVI & ATC have a certain synergy,
> for several years Ashley James of AVI was also Sales Manager at ATC
> and the two ranges are frequently sold together.
Although they don't seem quite as friendly anymore, esp. given
AVI's foray into the speaker market with designs not completely
dissimiliar to ATC passives. AVI and ATC do make a nice match,
and it's not horrendously expensive which is nice. I personally
think that the S2000MMs sound nicer than ATCs own 250wpc power
amplifier with SCM20SLs. I didn't really like the AVI pre-amp
tho' despite rave reviews.
>The Cornflake Shop in London are imo the best AVI/ATC dealer around and
>their advice is excellent and generally faultless;
They're my local dealer and I have nothing but good things to say.
They know when a customer knows what they're talking about and
respect that. Dominic is a nice guy and because of their pleasant
attitude I put several thousand quid their way in the shape of
SCM20SL actives. I'm still shocked by how darn good they sound.
My lovely, (actually not-so) old 20SL Towers are there (in the shop),
looking for a caring home! :) I also by chance met Billy Woodman (ATC
designer) a day earlier in London and he was so laid back and informative
I thought "he actually knows what he's on about!". ;) I'm never gonna
spend a fortune on cables, ever......
There are some London dealers with a "we've got 20,000 quid turntables
which you obviously can't afford" attitude that have me looking
for the closest exit.
> visit, it'll be well worth while; as well as being well looked after
> there, there's three of the best record shops in the UK within walking
> distance, HMV and Virgin in Oxford Street and Tower Records in
> Piccadilly Circus. All three have jazz and blues sections which on
> their own are bigger than most provincial record stores.
My advice is to avoid these stores if you can. The good(ish) choice
is off-set by some fairly exhorborant pricing. Look for specialist
stores if you know what you want, there's really no shortage in
London and the prices are lower than the big retail chains which to
some extent are there to skin tourists. If you're mad and still
into vinyl, there's still some places doing good business.
> The best amplifier ever for the SCM20 passives was the AVI 250wpc
> power amplifier which was around for a few years. This amp epitomised
> absolutely clean, limitless headroom and power, only discontinued by
> AVI as it was huge and extremely ugly
Also the Bryston 4BST/Krell KAV250 are good matches with similar
characteristics. I also found Audiolab monoblocs to be virtually
indistinguishable from the AVI equivalent. Power amps on the
second-hand market are generally a good and safe bet imo. It's
all rendered pretty redundant when you hear Woodman's active
speaker designs. Really, this is what hifi is actually supposed
to be. You know, literally high fidelity.
> [1] The Cornflake Shop, 37 Windmill St, London, W1P 1HH. Tel: 0171
> 631 0472.
Driving there is, er, fun! :)
Best wishes,
Sean.