Re: QUAD vs. One Thing

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 03/03/18 12:34, Huge wrote:
> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started making
> regular popping noises (I assume arcing somewhere). I always suspected
> it was too close to the wood burner and I guess the thermal cycling has
> damaged it. It's not *that* close, and only felt very slightly warm to
> the touch, but I guess it's a minimum of 12 years old and may be anything
> up to 18 years old. (As an aside, is there somewhere I can look up the
> serial numbers?)
>

Could be seasonal effects with your current heating making the air
somewhat dryer than normal?

Might it not do that when we get back to "normal" UK weather service.

--
Adrian C

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ffvjko...@mid.individual.net>,

ISTR if they ever arc over, some damage is done.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Brian Gaff]

If you are not listening to them how do you know its popping?
I was always a little suspicious of electrostatic speakers myself. all that
high voltage lurking around eventually is going to give issues. I assume its
not just a power supply issue, ie is there a way to swap them?

Brian

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"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
news:ffvj33...@mid.individual.net...

> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started making
> regular popping noises (I assume arcing somewhere). I always suspected
> it was too close to the wood burner and I guess the thermal cycling has
> damaged it. It's not *that* close, and only felt very slightly warm to
> the touch, but I guess it's a minimum of 12 years old and may be anything
> up to 18 years old. (As an aside, is there somewhere I can look up the
> serial numbers?)
>

> So, do I take it back to QUAD or send it to One Thing Audio? OTA's full
> refurb (or shall I just have the popping fixed?) is £1385 (I assume
> for a pair). I'll speak to QUAD on Monday and get a price from them.
>
> Anyone know where I can get some shipping cartons for them?
>
> [Rhetorical question]And where the hell am I going to place them in
> the living room, once I've had them fixed? I may just move them away
> from the log-burner when it's lit (quite a lot at the moment!) and I'm
> not listening to them. Good job I kept my previous speakers.
>
> --
> Today is Boomtime, the 62nd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3184
> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <56d301a...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)

<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > Could be seasonal effects with your current heating making the air
> > somewhat dryer than normal?

> > Might it not do that when we get back to "normal" UK weather service.

> ISTR if they ever arc over, some damage is done.

FWIW My 988s occasionally go though a period of making regular 'popping'
noises which then stop after a while. I think its due to an arrangement
present to prevent the actual panels arcing.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <56d3080...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <56d301a...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Could be seasonal effects with your current heating making the air
> > > somewhat dryer than normal?

> > > Might it not do that when we get back to "normal" UK weather service.

> > ISTR if they ever arc over, some damage is done.

> FWIW My 988s occasionally go though a period of making regular 'popping'
> noises which then stop after a while. I think its due to an arrangement
> present to prevent the actual panels arcing.

Ah - of course. Was thinking of the early ones.

--
*I thought I wanted a career. Turns out I just wanted paychecks.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 3/03/2018 11:34 PM, Huge wrote:
> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started making
> regular popping noises (I assume arcing somewhere). I always suspected
> it was too close to the wood burner and I guess the thermal cycling has
> damaged it. It's not *that* close, and only felt very slightly warm to
> the touch, but I guess it's a minimum of 12 years old and may be anything
> up to 18 years old. (As an aside, is there somewhere I can look up the
> serial numbers?)
>
> So, do I take it back to QUAD or send it to One Thing Audio? OTA's full
> refurb (or shall I just have the popping fixed?) is £1385 (I assume
> for a pair). I'll speak to QUAD on Monday and get a price from them.
>
> Anyone know where I can get some shipping cartons for them?
>
> [Rhetorical question]And where the hell am I going to place them in
> the living room, once I've had them fixed? I may just move them away
> from the log-burner when it's lit (quite a lot at the moment!) and I'm
> not listening to them. Good job I kept my previous speakers.
>

**A really common problem with Quads, after the Chinese got involved, is
the shitty power transformers used. Original Quad power transformers
last forever. The ones if the later model Quad speakers are (I think)
made in China and they are crap. They're also expensive. AUS$256.00 each
over here. So expensive, that I had 4 custom wound trannys built for
AUS$250.00. I could have had more built for about 50 Bucks each. I
betcha the transformer is failing. That said, it could be something else.

Replacing the power transformer is a 1 ~ 1.5 hour job.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[~misfit~]

"Get back to normal"? So you're an optomist then. ;-)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

[Phil Allison]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

---------------------

>
>
> **A really common problem with Quads, after the Chinese got involved, is
> the shitty power transformers used. Original Quad power transformers
> last forever. The ones if the later model Quad speakers are (I think)
> made in China and they are crap. They're also expensive. AUS$256.00 each
> over here. So expensive, that I had 4 custom wound trannys built for
> AUS$250.00. I could have had more built for about 50 Bucks each. I
> betcha the transformer is failing. That said, it could be something else.
>
> Replacing the power transformer is a 1 ~ 1.5 hour job.
>

** The power ( or mains) transformer in a Quad ELS-63 or 988 is a small component that supplies low current, 12VDC the overdrive protection circuit plus a single, 5.25KV DC supply that *polarises* the diaphragms - given a minute or so for the charge to spread evenly. Nothing hard about making one of them.

Possible that TW has come across faulty examples but it is NOT a common problem and TW seems the only person to think it is.

See pic of underside of ESL-63 etc.

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/quad/hey_you/PlinthOff2.jpg

The "mains transformer" is right of centre with a bright red label on top.

The two larger transformers, spread wide are for audio input. Quad used identical C-cores wound to give a voltage increase up of 100 times each. The primaries are wired in parallel and the secondaries in series creating a grounded centre tapped audio output.

Given that the max voltage appearing on each secondary is up to 3kVAC and must handle the output of a 100W+ amplifier comfortably, these have to be very well made and hence not cheap.

Note the "Danger Very High Voltage" signs attached to each tranny - QUAD mean it too.


... Phil

[Trevor Wilson]

On 4/03/2018 3:18 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> ---------------------
>>
>>
>> **A really common problem with Quads, after the Chinese got involved, is
>> the shitty power transformers used. Original Quad power transformers
>> last forever. The ones if the later model Quad speakers are (I think)
>> made in China and they are crap. They're also expensive. AUS$256.00 each
>> over here. So expensive, that I had 4 custom wound trannys built for
>> AUS$250.00. I could have had more built for about 50 Bucks each. I
>> betcha the transformer is failing. That said, it could be something else.
>>
>> Replacing the power transformer is a 1 ~ 1.5 hour job.
>>
>
>
> ** The power ( or mains) transformer in a Quad ELS-63 or 988 is a small component that supplies low current, 12VDC the overdrive protection circuit plus a single, 5.25KV DC supply that *polarises* the diaphragms - given a minute or so for the charge to spread evenly. Nothing hard about making one of them.
>
> Possible that TW has come across faulty examples but it is NOT a common problem and TW seems the only person to think it is.

**Nope. Not just me. I spoke with John Hall about it. He mentioned that
he had experienced problems with the new Quad power transformers too.
Rarely seen faulty ESL63 trannys. They're a 700 Volt AC transformer. The
secondary wire is extremely fine. I suspect sweat from the fevered brow
of a Chinese worker in one of those under-air conditioned sweat-shops.




--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Phil Allison]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

---------------------
>
> >>
> >> **A really common problem with Quads, after the Chinese got involved, is
> >> the shitty power transformers used. Original Quad power transformers
> >> last forever. The ones if the later model Quad speakers are (I think)
> >> made in China and they are crap. They're also expensive. AUS$256.00 each
> >> over here. So expensive, that I had 4 custom wound trannys built for
> >> AUS$250.00. I could have had more built for about 50 Bucks each. I
> >> betcha the transformer is failing. That said, it could be something else.
> >>
> >> Replacing the power transformer is a 1 ~ 1.5 hour job.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ** The power ( or mains) transformer in a Quad ELS-63 or 988 is a small component that supplies low current, 12VDC the overdrive protection circuit plus a single, 5.25KV DC supply that *polarises* the diaphragms - given a minute or so for the charge to spread evenly. Nothing hard about making one of them.
> >
> > Possible that TW has come across faulty examples but it is NOT a
> > common problem and TW seems the only person to think it is.
>
>
>
> **Nope. Not just me. I spoke with John Hall about it.
>

** FYI: John Hall is a Melbourne based, Quad ESL repairer. I have only ever spoken on the phone with him but seemed well clued up.

> He mentioned that
> he had experienced problems with the new Quad power transformers too.
> Rarely seen faulty ESL63 trannys. They're a 700 Volt AC transformer. The
> secondary wire is extremely fine.
>

** So are the ones used in the original ESL57, simple open frame types but likely vacuum dipped to get rid & air and moisture. The rectifier stack is far more likely fail unless potted in epoxy resin.

> I suspect sweat from the fevered brow
> of a Chinese worker in one of those under-air conditioned sweat-shops.
>

** Normally, such transformers are machine wound and the wire only handled by operators wearing white gloves.




.... Phil

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <fg4nh5...@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> Just spoke to a very, very helpful man in QUAD's service department who
> told me that it likely is (was) arcing caused by humidity and if it has
> stopped, then not to worry about it, but if it returns, they can replace
> a panel for £60 labour plus £120 per panel (there are 4 in a 988) plus
> VAT and P&P, which is considerably less money than I was expecting.

I've always found them very helpful. I suspect the reality is that the
'pops' can arise from arcs elsewhere than the panels. Or may be prompted by
the neons. But I've never really investigated. So far I've not noticed any
alteration in performance.

> Slightly less cheerfully, from the serial number he told me that the
> speakers were made in China rather than Huntingdon, in 2003. Mixed
> feelings about that. After all, everything's made in China now.

> BTW, Jim, he said that if the serial numbers begin "988", then they're
> Chinese made.

I don't know the serial numbers of mine, but I think I got them about 2005.
I'd need to check.

I do wish they have continued the manufacture in the UK. But once the firm
was sold I guess the shift abroad was inevitable given the way things have
altered more generally.

[Phil Allison]

Jim Lesurf wrote:

------------------

>
> > Just spoke to a very, very helpful man in QUAD's service department who
> > told me that it likely is (was) arcing caused by humidity and if it has
> > stopped, then not to worry about it, but if it returns, they can replace
> > a panel for £60 labour plus £120 per panel (there are 4 in a 988) plus
> > VAT and P&P, which is considerably less money than I was expecting.
>

** The service staff at Huntington must be exceptionally quick in disassembly and replacement of the various panels that make up ESL 63s, 988s and 989s.

About 12 years back, I had some experience working on ESL 63s for a friend - it is not near as simple as replacing a tweeter or woofer in a timber box. Firstly One needs a large table to lay the speaker down on, bright light and near clean room conditions maintained, so no dust or particles invade. A spotless garage with about a dozen long fluoro tubes hanging from the roof comes close.

You will also need a test amplifier of about 50W ( the Quad 306 is perfect )a sine wave generator and your wits about you at all times.

>
> > Slightly less cheerfully, from the serial number he told me that the
> > speakers were made in China rather than Huntingdon, in 2003.

** So still fairly new, as Quad's later ESLs go. Remember, the ESL-63 was released in 1981 - the number indicates when planning first began.

>
> Mixed feelings about that.
> After all, everything's made in China now.
>

** Chinese factory staff must have been quite astonished to be given world's most technically advanced speaker to manufacture and improve if possible.

After proving they could produce 988s and 989s equal to UK made ones, they went on to produce newer versions ( ESL 2805 and ESL 2905 ) replacing the previous flimsy plastic pedestal base with a larger steel one, upgrading other internal parts and in the process adding nearly 6kg of weight to each speaker.

FYI:

This 90 second vid explains the most common failure with ESL 63, 988 & 989 panels due to adhesive aging and cracking up. Takes about 15 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyIrQAjcZOQ

This 49 second one lets you hear the "popping" sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0jj-iXUeeI


** The "stators" appears to be single sided, copper clad PCBs drilled and coated with green, solder resist. The non clad sides face the diaphragm with a couple of mm airspace in between.

The white plastic frame work looks like ABS ( not Nylon ) and when firmly attached to the stators makes a rigid structure.

There is a plastic cover, heat stretched over the whole assembly, essential to keeping dust out.



.... Phil

[RJH]

On 05/03/2018 11:21, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-03-03, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <56d301a...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
>> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Could be seasonal effects with your current heating making the air
>>>> somewhat dryer than normal?
>>
>>>> Might it not do that when we get back to "normal" UK weather service.
>>
>>> ISTR if they ever arc over, some damage is done.
>>
>> FWIW My 988s occasionally go though a period of making regular 'popping'
>> noises which then stop after a while. I think its due to an arrangement
>> present to prevent the actual panels arcing.
>

> Just spoke to a very, very helpful man in QUAD's service department who
> told me that it likely is (was) arcing caused by humidity and if it has
> stopped, then not to worry about it, but if it returns, they can replace
> a panel for £60 labour plus £120 per panel (there are 4 in a 988)
> plus VAT and P&P, which is considerably less money than I was expecting.
>

In the scheme of things, reassuringly manageable for such a high end
speaker. I had a similarly helpful response following an enquiry to
repair a Quad tuner - about £100 fixed price ISTR.

Shame, given their levels of service, their newer stuff doesn't appeal
to me.


--
Cheers, Rob

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <p7lh5h$p8b$1...@dont-email.me>, RJH <patch...@gmx.com>
wrote:

> In the scheme of things, reassuringly manageable for such a high end
> speaker. I had a similarly helpful response following an enquiry to
> repair a Quad tuner - about £100 fixed price ISTR.

> Shame, given their levels of service, their newer stuff doesn't appeal
> to me.

For me, it has always been the speakers that put QUAD ahead of the pack in
terms of sound quality. In exchange I accept that the speakers are fragile
and need to be treated with care.

[Brian Gaff]

I guess that is what Castor Oil was invented for?
I remember a while back having a chuckle when looking at castors on
furniture over the years and noting that good quality furniture had good
ball race or roller bearings but these days they were nearly all nylon or
similar. he said castors have gone downhill over the years.. Ho ho.

Brian

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"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message

news:fg2l69F...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2018-03-03, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started
>> making
>> regular popping noises
>

> And now it's stopped and appears to be working fine. it appears Jim
> was right and it's just "one of those things", for which I am most
> grateful (thanks, Jim!)
>
> Oh, and the threaded bushes in the underside are M6. Some castors
> (casters?) on their way.
>
>
> --
> Today is Pungenday, the 63rd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3184

[Phil Allison]

Brian Gaff wrote:

----------------

> I guess that is what Castor Oil was invented for?

** A "caster" is a type of wheel & twin axle combination that allows the wheel to rotate freely around a second vertical axis and face any direction. It is said to "caster" to comply with the direction of push or a slope.

> I remember a while back having a chuckle when looking at castors on
> furniture over the years and noting that good quality furniture had good
> ball race or roller bearings but these days they were nearly all nylon or
> similar. he said castors have gone downhill over the years.. Ho ho.
>

** Gotta watch out for that .....


FYI:

I used casters to convert a 10 inch, 65 litre ported sub enclosure to downward facing by mounting one in each corner of the ( slightly recessed ) baffle.

The casters lifted the enclosure enough to create a 30mm gap all round for air pressure to escape. Testing proved this did not spoil the careful TS alignment.
The added mid frequency attenuation made it impossible to locate the sub in the room by ear, even when used alone.

Plus the cone was now protected from accidental damage and the box could be used as a movable table.


..... Phil

[Iain]

perjantai 9. maaliskuuta 2018 19.18.52 UTC+2 Brian Gaff kirjoitti:
> I guess that is what Castor Oil was invented for?
> I remember a while back having a chuckle when looking at castors on
> furniture over the years and noting that good quality furniture had good
> ball race or roller bearings but these days they were nearly all nylon or
> similar. he said castors have gone downhill over the years.. Ho ho.
> Brian
>

One can still by high quality brass casters, but they do cost a
bit more than the nylon versions from Ikea. The brass casters used
on concert grand pianos are good examples. Two people can easily move
a large, heavy (and very valuable) instrument. These casters even
have locks to prevent the tendency to go downhill which you mentioned :-)

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <g4o84a...@mid.individual.net>,
Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-03-04, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> > On 2018-03-03, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> >> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started making
> >> regular popping noises
> >
> > And now it's stopped and appears to be working fine. it appears Jim
> > was right and it's just "one of those things", for which I am most
> > grateful (thanks, Jim!)

> Sadly, it needed a full refurb at QUAD. £640.

Ah. ELS did always tend to be rather high maintenance. Things haven't
changed?

--
*A dog's not just for Christmas, it's alright on a Friday night too*

[Brian Gaff]

Do they have any tips why it happens? I don't really see how something made
correctly can start to degrade in the way you mention, neither do I see why
it costs that much. Sounds a bit of a racket to me.
Brian

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"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message

news:g4o84a...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2018-03-04, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-03, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started
>>> making
>>> regular popping noises
>>
>> And now it's stopped and appears to be working fine. it appears Jim
>> was right and it's just "one of those things", for which I am most
>> grateful (thanks, Jim!)
>
> Sadly, it needed a full refurb at QUAD. £640.
>
>

> --
> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 22nd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3184
> ~ Stercus accidit ~

[Brian Gaff]

How much is a new one I wonder?

Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message

news:g4ok40...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2018-11-10, Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <g4o84a...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-04, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> > On 2018-03-03, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started
>>> >> making
>>> >> regular popping noises
>>> >
>>> > And now it's stopped and appears to be working fine. it appears Jim
>>> > was right and it's just "one of those things", for which I am most
>>> > grateful (thanks, Jim!)
>>
>>> Sadly, it needed a full refurb at QUAD. £640.
>>
>> Ah. ELS did always tend to be rather high maintenance. Things haven't
>> changed?
>

> Apparently not. I now keep them away from the wood-burner. It is getting
> on for 20 years old, so not too surprising.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 11/11/2018 4:49 am, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <g4o84a...@mid.individual.net>,
> Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-04, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-03, Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Well, the inevitable has happened and the left hand 988 has started making
>>>> regular popping noises
>>>
>>> And now it's stopped and appears to be working fine. it appears Jim
>>> was right and it's just "one of those things", for which I am most
>>> grateful (thanks, Jim!)
>
>> Sadly, it needed a full refurb at QUAD. £640.
>
> Ah. ELS did always tend to be rather high maintenance. Things haven't
> changed?
>

**Well, sort of. Acoustat proved, several decades ago, how to build
reliable, tough and long-lasting ESLs. Quad are OK, but they require
some maintenance after a couple of decades. Martin Logan require a full
rebuild (new panels, in reality) after about 10 years. Also, FWIW: the
old Quads (ESL57 and ESL63) had extremely reliable transformers. After
Quad decided to source their transformers from China, faults in power
transformers have risen significantly. I have a local supplier whose
prices are significantly lower than Quad's and, I expect reliability to
be significantly better too.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Phil Allison]

Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>
> Do they have any tips why it happens? I don't really see how something made
> correctly can start to degrade in the way you mention,
>

** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a *wood burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a contamination problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.

OTOH if he was in the habit of moving them about, cracked glue on the stator assembly becomes an issue - cos tiny particles break away and cause static discharge noises.

At about 18 to 20 years of age was the time many of the original ESL63s needed a good service too. Folk who knew this sold them off quick rather than pay for repairs.

Those who bought them learned a hard lesson.

Happened to a good friend of mine, who did not do enough "research".



.... Phil

[Trevor Wilson]

On 11/11/2018 7:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>
>> Do they have any tips why it happens? I don't really see how something made
>> correctly can start to degrade in the way you mention,
>>
>
> ** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a *wood burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a contamination problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.
>

**Good catch. The indoor pollution from combustion heaters is
horrendous. I cannot believe seemingly intelligent people still use
them. Guaranteed to shorted human life-span as well as ESLs. A reverse
cycle air con is a far better option and is the lowest CO2 emission form
or heating available (so, good for the environment too).


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[RJH]

Personal anecdote would suggest otherwise - non-smoking members of my
family live(d) well into their 80s, and the women into their 90s, with
near daily use of coal or wood burning heating. Swallows summers etc :-)

That said, obviously it's not a good idea to load your lungs with smoke,
but isn't the current trend against small particulate 'smoke'?

--
Cheers, Rob

[Trevor Wilson]

On 13/11/2018 4:14 pm, RJH wrote:
> On 13/11/2018 01:55, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 11/11/2018 7:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do they have any tips why it happens? I don't really see how
>>>> something made
>>>> correctly can start to degrade in the way you mention,
>>>>
>>>
>>> ** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a *wood
>>> burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a
>>> contamination problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.
>>>
>>
>> **Good catch. The indoor pollution from combustion heaters is
>> horrendous. I cannot believe seemingly intelligent people still use
>> them. Guaranteed to shorted human life-span as well as ESLs. A reverse
>> cycle air con is a far better option and is the lowest CO2 emission
>> form or heating available (so, good for the environment too).
>>
>
> Personal anecdote would suggest otherwise - non-smoking members of my
> family live(d) well into their 80s, and the women into their 90s, with
> near daily use of coal or wood burning heating. Swallows summers etc :-)

**Anecdotes are not scientific studies. Thankfully. The pollution from
the highest quality, lowest emission wood heater, in one hour's
operation is approximately equivalent to a modern petrol engined car
operating over around 10,000km.

>
> That said, obviously it's not a good idea to load your lungs with smoke,
> but isn't the current trend against small particulate 'smoke'?

**So I understand, which is why Diesels are unpopular in Europe now.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Brian Gaff]

When I were a lad we had open coal fires and I'd have my weekly bath in a
tin tub in front of the fire with a guard in front of it, I suspect my lungs
have been subjected to abuse even though I never smoked from parents who did
in enclosed spaces like cars, pea soup fogs and industrial pollution.
I do have a lot of respiratory issues as I get older, and so I guess the
damage is done. However whether all of that is relevant to ELS speakers, I'm
not so sure.
If they are made correctly one might feel they should not be affected, but
I suspect the high humidity in homes where gas or other fossil fuels are
burned might eventually coat the thin membranes with a goo.

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:g4vgui...@mid.individual.net...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <g4vgui...@mid.individual.net>,

Trevor Wilson <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> **Anecdotes are not scientific studies. Thankfully. The pollution from
> the highest quality, lowest emission wood heater, in one hour's
> operation is approximately equivalent to a modern petrol engined car
> operating over around 10,000km.

Pollution covers many things. Often just CO2 which isn't that harmful to
humans by breathing it.

So you'd really need to state which gases you are referring to.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <57565a...@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <575658e...@davenoise.co.uk>,

> Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > Pollution covers many things. Often just CO2 which isn't that
> > harmful to humans by breathing it.

> CO2 is not a pollutant !

True. But it is common to refer to it as one. Especially with cars.

--
*I have never hated a man enough to give his diamonds back.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 14/11/2018 1:30 am, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <g4vgui...@mid.individual.net>,
> Trevor Wilson <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>> **Anecdotes are not scientific studies. Thankfully. The pollution from
>> the highest quality, lowest emission wood heater, in one hour's
>> operation is approximately equivalent to a modern petrol engined car
>> operating over around 10,000km.
>
> Pollution covers many things. Often just CO2 which isn't that harmful to
> humans by breathing it.

**Depends on the level. Anything over 10% is quite deadly. Even lower
levels can cause headaches and impaired quality of life.

>
> So you'd really need to state which gases you are referring to.
>

**I was referring, specifically, to particulates as a result of
combustion.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Phil Allison]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

>
> **Anecdotes are not scientific studies. Thankfully. The pollution from
> the highest quality, lowest emission wood heater, in one hour's
> operation is approximately equivalent to a modern petrol engined car
> operating over around 10,000km.
>
>

** But it all goes up the chimney.

( BTW: the above reads like an "anecdote" to me .... )


.... Phil

[tony sayer]

In article <03d584e7-c0ee-479f...@googlegroups.com>, Phil
Allison <palli...@gmail.com> scribeth thus

All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)



Some other interesting reading here and there and there, there is or was
another forum that did go into the QUAD ESL range and the tribulations
of owning them which sometimes seems a labour of love and a possible DIY
cause if you like playing around with Mylar films of a nats wisker in
thickness..

Which reminds me one of mine is spluttering so a trip up the A14 is
called for mind you that in its present state should see them back in
use next year;!(..


Http://www.keith-snook.info/loud-speaker-stuff/QUAD-ESL63/QUAD-
ESL63.html

https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/refurbishing-classic-quad-
electrostatic-loudspeakers


Might make you wonder why we bother going to all this grief and expense
.. until you sit down and listen to them..

Well not them, its just that they aren't there in the way of the
audio:)...
--
Tony Sayer

[Andrew]

On 13/11/2018 01:55, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Where does the electricity come from ?/

[Trevor Wilson]

**You really don't know? I leave you to figure that out. However, what
most don't realise is just how spectacularly efficient modern air
conditioners (heat pumps) actually are. Modern, inverter type, R401a
equipped air conditioners are typically capable of an EER and COP of
approximately 4. IOW: 1kW of electricity input = 4kW heating out. No
form of space heating comes close for cost effectiveness, CO2 emissions
and particulate release. Far less CO2 is produced when using a modern
air conditioner (even allowing for a, say, 40% thermal conversion
efficiency of a coal fired power station), than is produced by an
external combustion heater.

Of course, we Aussies know this well, as many of us use air
conditioners. I guess they are far less common in Old Blighty.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[RJH]

On 15/11/2018 01:24, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 15/11/2018 10:56 am, Andrew wrote:
>> On 13/11/2018 01:55, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 11/11/2018 7:14 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
>>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they have any tips why it happens? I don't really see how
>>>>> something made
>>>>> correctly can start to degrade in the way you mention,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a
>>>> *wood burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a
>>>> contamination problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Good catch. The indoor pollution from combustion heaters is
>>> horrendous. I cannot believe seemingly intelligent people still use
>>> them. Guaranteed to shorted human life-span as well as ESLs. A
>>> reverse cycle air con is a far better option and is the lowest CO2
>>> emission form or heating available (so, good for the environment too).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Where does the electricity come from ?/
>
> **You really don't know? I leave you to figure that out. However, what
> most don't realise is just how spectacularly efficient modern air
> conditioners (heat pumps) actually are. Modern, inverter type, R401a
> equipped air conditioners are typically capable of an EER and COP of
> approximately 4. IOW: 1kW of electricity input = 4kW heating out. No
> form of space heating comes close for cost effectiveness, CO2 emissions
> and particulate release.

If cost is your criterion, it doesn't work that way in the UK - gas is
4x cheaper than electricity:

https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh

> Far less CO2 is produced when using a modern
> air conditioner (even allowing for a, say, 40% thermal conversion
> efficiency of a coal fired power station), than is produced by an
> external combustion heater.
>

Makes sense

> Of course, we Aussies know this well, as many of us use air
> conditioners. I guess they are far less common in Old Blighty.
>

You're right - but we don't need the cooling, er, yet. They make a lot
of sense in things like conservatories/extensions. But space, noise,
house design and our weather have meant low use of air source heat pumps.


--
Cheers, Rob

[Trevor Wilson]

**YIKES! It is cheap. Everytime I watch Escape to the Country, I always
see those silly oil fired ranges and wood heaters. No one mentions gas.

>
>
>> Far less CO2 is produced when using a modern air conditioner (even
>> allowing for a, say, 40% thermal conversion efficiency of a coal fired
>> power station), than is produced by an external combustion heater.
>>
>
> Makes sense
>
>> Of course, we Aussies know this well, as many of us use air
>> conditioners. I guess they are far less common in Old Blighty.
>>
>
> You're right - but we don't need the cooling, er, yet. They make a lot
> of sense in things like conservatories/extensions. But space, noise,
> house design and our weather have meant low use of air source heat pumps.

**A modern, QUALITY, inverter type air con is very quiet indeed.
Companies like Panasonic, MHI and Daikin are all excellent and very
quiet brands. And naturally, I refer to split or ducted systems, not
window types. Personally, I had MHI units installed more than a decade
ago. 2kW of electricity in = 7kW of cold (or warm) air out. Perfect for
a Sydney Summer. Prolly good for London Summers in the not too distant.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Don Pearce]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:14:25 +1100, Trevor Wilson
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

> If cost is your criterion, it doesn't work that way in the UK - gas is
>> 4x cheaper than electricity:
>>
>> https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh
>
>**YIKES! It is cheap. Everytime I watch Escape to the Country, I always
>see those silly oil fired ranges and wood heaters. No one mentions gas.
>
>>

There's virtually no gas supply outside of towns - far too expensive
and disruptive to install the infrastructure.

d

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <g54rnj...@mid.individual.net>,

Trevor Wilson <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> > You're right - but we don't need the cooling, er, yet. They make a lot
> > of sense in things like conservatories/extensions. But space, noise,
> > house design and our weather have meant low use of air source heat pumps.

> **A modern, QUALITY, inverter type air con is very quiet indeed.
> Companies like Panasonic, MHI and Daikin are all excellent and very
> quiet brands. And naturally, I refer to split or ducted systems, not
> window types. Personally, I had MHI units installed more than a decade
> ago. 2kW of electricity in = 7kW of cold (or warm) air out. Perfect for
> a Sydney Summer. Prolly good for London Summers in the not too distant.

Much of the desirable housing stock in the UK is old. Being built of
materials designed to last. And doesn't lend itself to having ducting and
or underfloor heating added. Since most all want is heating, an ordinary
gas fired system with radiators is the best value overall - taking into
account installation and running costs.

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

[Vir Campestris]

On 15/11/2018 10:01, Don Pearce wrote:
> There's virtually no gas supply outside of towns - far too expensive
> and disruptive to install the infrastructure.

We use oil, as do most people in our village. There are a couple of
cubic metres of LNG under next doors lawn - not sure if it's propane or
butane, or a mix - and the new people over the road have just gone for
an air-sourced heat pump. There's someone down the road with a ground
sourced pump.

The risk with air sourced is it ices up if the weather is cool and damp,
and has to run a defrost cycle, which hits the efficiency. But it's not
often like that in England :P we'll see!

Andy

[RJH]

On 15/11/2018 10:01, Don Pearce wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:14:25 +1100, Trevor Wilson
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> If cost is your criterion, it doesn't work that way in the UK - gas is
>>> 4x cheaper than electricity:
>>>
>>> https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh
>>
>> **YIKES! It is cheap. Everytime I watch Escape to the Country, I always
>> see those silly oil fired ranges and wood heaters. No one mentions gas.
>>
>>>
> There's virtually no gas supply outside of towns - far too expensive
> and disruptive to install the infrastructure.
>

Anecdotally I'd have agreed, but on a closer look out of town areas seem
to be better served than I'd thought:

<https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/QS415EW/view/2092957699?rows=cell&cols=rural_urban>


And this is quite a thing:

https://www.nongasmap.org.uk/

Showing for example the lack of gas in high density urban areas - flats
presumably.

>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

?!

--
Cheers, Rob

[Phil Allison]

Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>
> If they are made correctly one might feel they should not be affected, but
> I suspect the high humidity in homes where gas or other fossil fuels are
> burned might eventually coat the thin membranes with a goo.
>

** The active surfaces of Quad ESL57s, 63s & 988s etc are protected by outer dust covers. Not totally air tight I'll admit, but pretty close.

The voltage multiplier PCB in this early ESL63 appears to be wax coated - not a very effective method of moisture proofing.

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/quad/hey_you/PlinthOff.jpg

The ceramic caps used, although rated for the task, tended to leak slightly after 20 years of continuous use - most ESL owners never switched their speakers off. The result was loss of level and popping / squealing noises.

The PCB was available from Quad and others and easy to replace.



.... Phil

[Phil Allison]

tony sayer wrote:

>
> >
> >** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a
> >*wood burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a
> > contamination> problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.
> >
> >OTOH if he was in the habit of moving them about, cracked glue on
> > the stator assembly becomes an issue - cos tiny particles break
> > away and cause static discharge noises.
> >
> >At about 18 to 20 years of age was the time many of the original
> > ESL63s needed a good service too.
>

> >Folk who knew this sold them off quick rather than pay for expensive

> >repairs.
> >
> >Those who bought them learned a hard lesson.
> >
> >Happened to a good friend of mine, who did not do enough "research".
> >
>
>

> All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)
>

** Hardly fair comment !!!!!

FYI:

I presently own exactly one Quad product, an early example of the Quad II amplifier - S/N It has been completely refurbished & rewired.

Now has fitted is a standard IEC inlet, power switch, 1/4 inch jack, blue LED indicator light, 100uF electros in the PSU, ceramic 9 pin sockets with covers for the EF86s and Sylvania 6L6GCs for output. THD tests 0.05% at 10W.

I used to own a pair of used ESL57s, bought in 1975 which I repaired and kept until about 2002 when I sold them to a new owner prepared to pay a restorer
for a full refurbishment.

I owned a used pair of Quad ESL63s for one weekend, then returned them to the dealer after discovering the promised renewals and repairs had simply NOT been done. One speaker tested 9dB louder than the other !! After a lot of hassle, the amount I paid was fully refunded.

OTOH: I have repaired, refurbished and bench tested Quad 303s, 33s & FM3s plus numerous 405s, a couple of 306s and a pair of Quad IIs belonging to a brother and sister, yes they each owned one. I was most impressed with the 306.

I have also done bass and treble panel replacements on a pair of Quad ESL63s followed by various kinds of electronic tests confirming ones published by Quad and others - like the square wave test.



.... Phil

[Don Pearce]

More than I would have thought too. But if you pull the true rural out
of that table, it is well under ten percent.

d

[Phil Allison]

Phil Allison wrote:

>
> tony sayer wrote:
>
> FYI:
>
> I presently own exactly one Quad product, an early example of the

> Quad II amplifier - S/N 8734.


** It was originally built for the US market with 100/110/120 VAC input and, would you believe, the mains tranny was burnt out ??



.... Phil

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ef1c7edf-bc18-493e...@googlegroups.com>,

I had a full Quad II setup at one point, and the transformer on the amp
supplying the pre-amp etc also burnt out.

--
*Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.

[tony sayer]

In article <g54rnj...@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPA
MBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> scribeth thus

Works very well here not quite the same as Oz but it was pretty hot here
now some long ago. We may not get the same heat but humidity for me is a
bigger issue, i can't stand it!.

I do know of some who do have ground source heat pumps and very good
they can be too..
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <g52k1g...@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> scribeth thus

>On 2018-11-14, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <03d584e7-c0ee-479f...@googlegroups.com>, Phil
>> Allison <palli...@gmail.com> scribeth thus
>

>[28 lines snipped]

>
>> All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)
>

>More dribbling nonsense, more like. Much of what is written online about
>QUAD ESLs is nonsense, or even positively harmful. Oh, and BTW, the price
>I paid for them was such that even with the cost of repairing them, they
>were still very reasonable. So he can take his snippy comments about
>"research" (and indeed anything else; he's killfiled here) and shove
>them up his arse. To the elbow.

Well there has been a lot writ re ESL problems but there were no
untruths in what he did write. They are a bit of a high maintenance
speaker. Some of it was just the way they were built or had to be built
rather and it is now quite an old design so problems with glue etc
coming undone is quite the case

Course it is quite a variable the price and condition and anyone who
wants a pair should allow something for repair and renovation but they
can be bought back to new spec and performance. There are some mods that
can be done they are a bit more questionable but in the main very little
has been written that to totally misleading or untrue...

>
>[20 lines snipped]

>
>> Might make you wonder why we bother going to all this grief and expense
>> .. until you sit down and listen to them..
>

>Quite.

>
>> Well not them, its just that they aren't there in the way of the
>> audio:)...
>

>Quite**2.
>
Yes thats in no doubt at all:)
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <e7dcced7-51c7-4f8c...@googlegroups.com>, Phil
Allison <palli...@gmail.com> scribeth thus

>tony sayer wrote:
>
>>
>> >
>> >** The OPs first post reveals his Quad 988s were kept next to a
>> >*wood burner* and are up to 18 years old - strongly suggesting a
>> > contamination> problem with the panels or high voltage PSU assembly.
>> >
>> >OTOH if he was in the habit of moving them about, cracked glue on
>> > the stator assembly becomes an issue - cos tiny particles break
>> > away and cause static discharge noises.
>> >
>> >At about 18 to 20 years of age was the time many of the original
>> > ESL63s needed a good service too.
>>
>> >Folk who knew this sold them off quick rather than pay for expensive
>> >repairs.
>> >
>> >Those who bought them learned a hard lesson.
>> >
>> >Happened to a good friend of mine, who did not do enough "research".
>> >
>>
>>
>> All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)
>>
>
> ** Hardly fair comment !!!!!
>
>FYI:
>
>I presently own exactly one Quad product, an early example of the Quad II
>amplifier - S/N It has been completely refurbished & rewired.
>
>Now has fitted is a standard IEC inlet, power switch, 1/4 inch jack, blue LED
>indicator light, 100uF electros in the PSU, ceramic 9 pin sockets with covers
>for the EF86s and Sylvania 6L6GCs for output. THD tests 0.05% at 10W.

Prolly all of that PW would have done or approved..

>
>I used to own a pair of used ESL57s, bought in 1975 which I repaired and kept
>until about 2002 when I sold them to a new owner prepared to pay a restorer
>for a full refurbishment.
>
>I owned a used pair of Quad ESL63s for one weekend, then returned them to the
>dealer after discovering the promised renewals and repairs had simply NOT been
>done. One speaker tested 9dB louder than the other !! After a lot of hassle,
>the amount I paid was fully refunded.

Bloody rip off merchant!

Perhaps ESL 63's ought to come like a car with a service history log
book;?.

>
>OTOH: I have repaired, refurbished and bench tested Quad 303s, 33s & FM3s plus
>numerous 405s, a couple of 306s and a pair of Quad IIs belonging to a brother
>and sister, yes they each owned one. I was most impressed with the 306.
>
>I have also done bass and treble panel replacements on a pair of Quad ESL63s
>followed by various kinds of electronic tests confirming ones published by Quad
>and others - like the square wave test.

Yes seen them doing that in the factory, well the St Peters road one
when in existence, bloody impressive:)
>
>
>
>.... Phil
>
>
>
>

--
Tony Sayer

[Phil Allison]

tony sayer wrote:

>>
> >> All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)
> >>
> >
> > ** Hardly fair comment !!!!!
> >
> > FYI:
> >
> > I presently own exactly one Quad product, an early example of the Quad II

> > amplifier - S/N 8734 It has been completely refurbished & rewired.

> >
> > Now has fitted is a standard IEC inlet, power switch, 1/4 inch jack,
> > blue LED indicator light, 100uF electros in the PSU, ceramic 9 pin
> > sockets with covers >for the EF86s and Sylvania 6L6GCs for output.
> > THD tests 0.05% at 10W.
>

> Prolly all of that PW would have done or approved..

** I have seen a few attempts to "gild the lily" with the Quad II
- like swapping EF86s out for 12AX7s, KT66s for EL34s and installing
a whole new circuit arrangement. The main achievement was power output increased somewhat, but at the expense of more THD and less stability.

> Perhaps ESL 63's ought to come like a car with a service history log
> book;?.

** With the overvoltage and anti-ionisation protection circuits that Quad built into the ESL63, they were in fact highly reliable speakers.

Consider all the famous US brand speakers that used foam surrounds ( JBL, AR Bose) that needed extensive repairs after only about 10 years.


... Phil

[Phil Allison]

tony sayer wrote:

>>
> >> All very good comments from the worlds number 1 Quad fan;)
> >>
> >
> > ** Hardly fair comment !!!!!
> >
> > FYI:
> >
> > I presently own exactly one Quad product, an early example of the Quad II

> > amplifier - S/N 8734 It has been completely refurbished & rewired.

> >
> > Now has fitted is a standard IEC inlet, power switch, 1/4 inch jack,
> > blue LED indicator light, 100uF electros in the PSU, ceramic 9 pin
> > sockets with covers >for the EF86s and Sylvania 6L6GCs for output.
> > THD tests 0.05% at 10W.
>

> Prolly all of that PW would have done or approved..

** I have seen a few attempts to "gild the lily" with the Quad II
- like swapping EF86s out for 12AX7s, KT66s for EL34s and installing
a whole new circuit arrangement. The main achievement was power output increased somewhat, but at the expense of more THD and less stability.

> Perhaps ESL 63's ought to come like a car with a service history log
> book;?.