Re Valve amps
StaffBull
would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait
for it to warm up every time I need it?
cheers
Dave Plowman (News)
Valves - unlike transistors - have a finite life. And according to some,
modern valves have a shorter life than once was the case.
I'd personally not trust many valve amps to be left on unattended - I've
seen too many go up in smoke. And certainly not a 'budget' valve amp.
--
*Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Evans
too many go up in smoke. And certainly not a 'budget' valve amp.>
Can't say it's ever happened to me, but the potential is there I suppose. Mind,
these days there should be fuses in strategic places. I tend to turn my amp on
in the morning and turn it off at night. With valve rectifiers there's a nice
slow warm up, so not much harm is done turning the amp off and on if you prefer
to do it more frequently. Valves for the most part are not too expensive -
cheaper probably than the batteries a household uses up in the same time span.
So far they have kept their value so spares can even be something of an
investment if you choose wisely and buy at cheap prices.
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Trevor Wilson
"StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I
> would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait
> for it to warm up every time I need it?
**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.
There are several reasons for this:
* Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In
SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves and
electrolytic caps.
* Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and
spikes, which may damage equipment.
* Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive.
Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
Tell my why you think this is a good idea?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Stewart Pinkerton
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
>news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I
>> would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait
>> for it to warm up every time I need it?
>
>**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.
Hooey.
>There are several reasons for this:
>* Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In
>SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves and
>electrolytic caps.
Hooey. If it's not a class A amp, or otherwise warm inside, it puts
less strain on the caps to leave them switched on. Start-up surges are
a major cause of cap failure.
My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!
>* Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and
>spikes, which may damage equipment.
Only badly designed equipment, and not everywhere has such crappy
mains that this is an issue.
>* Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive.
Neither is farting, but I doubt it's a major issue.
>Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
>Tell my why you think this is a good idea?
Seems like a bad idea - much like attempting to drive any decent
speaker with a cheap valve amp, when the same money would buy you a
sonically transparent SS amp.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.
> There are several reasons
<snipped but agreed with entirely>
> Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
> Tell my why you think this is a good idea?
OK, Trevor, you're not getting a nibble so I'll respond:
Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first
ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...'
(Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)
:-)
Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK without
going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get into
valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get a
good listen without any obligation to spend money.
This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits that
have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears to
have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
auditioner'!)
However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
recommend valves to all and sundry as:
1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)
2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope of
'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure establishes
itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out of
fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie, you
are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of course,
it can/probably will at some point.....
3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into place
to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
like it's doing with everything else these days!
The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively piss all over most ss amps I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
the 'sound quality'......
(My 2p only....)
Keith G
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ndt0h01femjc3r3r1...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
> >news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
I
> >> would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
wait
> >> for it to warm up every time I need it?
> >
> >**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.
>
> Hooey.
Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby
current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask
your insurers.....)
> My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
> works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
> true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!
Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it
take that bit longer to strike an arc.....???
;-)
Mike Gilmour
"Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4110e8de$0$6448$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
...with carbon rods.... for home cinema. ;-)
Andy Evans
1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular>
and there is a mountain of common valves out there (viz. guitar amp and hifi
models like ECC***, 6L6GT, EL34 etc). Several mountains of less common valves,
to the point that dealers just junk a lot of types to save rental on keeping
them.
< (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more
expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....)>
rock bottom. Jazz and pop is different, since this is now 'collectors' rather
than consumer. Just try and sell a collection of 1,000 classical LPs (I have
such a collection to sell - please give me 10 times what they were worth a
couple of years ago!)
< NOS valves will disappear more quickly>
production (EH, JJ, EI, Svetlana etc) is getting better and better and new
types are being manufactured every year. This year sees, for instance, the 7591
and 7868 from Eh and JJ, plus new and greatly improved Chinese 845s.
<and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market>
new valves as above.
<(Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better
2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear> Agreed
<OK if a support structure establishes
itself> There is a good support structure - less than before but maybe
something like Leica owners or classic car builders.
3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves will result
in a great raft of legislation swinging into place>
Why wouldn't this have happened already in the century or so of valve use? Why
would a government even bother with such a small issue these days?
I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound
of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical
listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents
the "musical experience". I think digital amps are coming up fast and I'd see
the future there rather than in analogue SS. Some digital amps sound rather
fine. But valves will live on simply because of the investment people have made
in them. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a
mountain of unused valves out there. Andy
Mike Gilmour
Clipped wooly bit ;-)
> Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK
without
> going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
> prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get
into
> valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
> secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
> willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get
a
> good listen without any obligation to spend money.
Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the woods
(Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you wanted
and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.
>
> This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits
that
> have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
> people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
> didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears
to
> have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
> auditioner'!)
Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
here.
>
> However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
> recommend valves to all and sundry as:
>
> 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
> secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
> shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
> disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
> crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
> popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)
It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more reliable
valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
improved upon? >
> 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope
of
> 'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure
establishes
> itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out
of
> fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie,
you
> are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of
course,
> it can/probably will at some point.....
>
> 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
> voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
> divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into
place
> to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
> like it's doing with everything else these days!
Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.
>
> The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
> various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
> hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively piss all over most ss amps
I've
> heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
> the 'sound quality'......
>
> (My 2p only....)
Make that 4p Mike
>
>
>
>
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>
>"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ndt0h01femjc3r3r1...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
>> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
>> >news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >> Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
>I
>> >> would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
>wait
>> >> for it to warm up every time I need it?
>> >
>> >**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.
>>
>> Hooey.
>
>Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby
>current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask
>your insurers.....)
Insurers are concerned with fire risk, not capacitor failure. This is
a vexed question among audiophiles, for some mysterious reason, but
out in the real world of industrial electronics, most equipment is
kept permanently powered up. Anything with a valve in it (including
CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, but that's virtually no
real-world equipment nowadays, aside from some radio transmitters.
So, the original poster should switch off his valve amp, but we
sensible folk can leave our class AB SS amps permanently switched on.
>> My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
>> works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
>> true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!
>
>Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it
>take that bit longer to strike an arc.....???
It's been working happily for about fifteen years, but it pretty much
*defines* overengineering! For instance, it's only rated at 50 watts
into 8 ohms, but it delivers 195 watts continuous into 4 ohms, both
channels driven. Basically, I'm just too mean to pay the bill for a
constant 300 watt drain! Naturally, the excess heat isn't a problem in
the UK.....................
Jim Lesurf
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> "StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
> news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
> > I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
> > wait for it to warm up every time I need it?
> **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
> use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on,
> accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means
> electrolytic caps.
I would quibble a bit with this. :-)
IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged
periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged up
means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic
leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in
leakage current. This should recover with use, though.
Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use,
and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a
slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though.
FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards. Mind
you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of
'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be inclined
to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving
things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small
risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large! Prefer
peace of mind.
Slainte,
Jim
--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
Stewart Pinkerton
<mi...@tfjazz.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>news:4110e8de$0$6448$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>
>> "Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:ndt0h01femjc3r3r1...@4ax.com...
>> > My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
>> > works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
>> > true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!
>>
>> Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it
>> take that bit longer to strike an arc.....???
>>
>> ;-)
>>
> ...with carbon rods.... for home cinema. ;-)
I wouldn't recommend Krell AV gear to anyone - overpriced and from a
company that now has a truly shit reputation for customer care. :-(
Keith G
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
news:20040804100148...@mb-m22.aol.com...
> Hello Keith - I'm not sure about some of what you write here:
OK, a quick reply - I'm on my way out. (In more ways than one! :-)
> 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular>
> Prices for new production Russian, Czech and Chinese valves are pretty
static,
> and there is a mountain of common valves out there (viz. guitar amp and
hifi
> models like ECC***, 6L6GT, EL34 etc). Several mountains of less common
valves,
> to the point that dealers just junk a lot of types to save rental on
keeping
> them.
Facter life - as demand increases, so does prices. Jim Fish of Wilson Valves
said (all 'anecdotal' this - check me out by all means, but don't hold me to
it) that he doesn't handle KT88s any more as the prices has gone through the
roof and he does/didn't want to get involved.....
> < (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more
> expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years
ago....)>
> ?????? all my information is that common vinyl, e.g. classical orchestral,
is
> rock bottom. Jazz and pop is different, since this is now 'collectors'
rather
> than consumer. Just try and sell a collection of 1,000 classical LPs (I
have
> such a collection to sell - please give me 10 times what they were worth a
> couple of years ago!)
2 days ago, vinyl prices in Sue Ryder, Camden - Max Freakin' Bygraves was
£6.50 (that's actually a 100 times more than it used to be), Frank Sinatra
was/is £7.50 and a few Heavy Metal at these prices. A few Classical at
£1.98 - most Classical here were 3 or 4 for a quid a while back!
Local prices? - No idea, I stopped looking a year ago! (I get 98% of my
vinyl from eBay - you can't beat it!)
> < NOS valves will disappear more quickly>
> Remember that vast quantities are being hoarded by valve users. And
anyway, new
> production (EH, JJ, EI, Svetlana etc) is getting better and better and new
> types are being manufactured every year.
Yes, but I've been told 'when these xxx (Mullards, usually) are gone, I
doubt if I'll be able to get any more....' on numerous occasions! (Don't get
me wrong - I'll take a 12AX7EH in lieu of a Mullard any day!)
>This year sees, for instance, the 7591
> and 7868 from Eh and JJ, plus new and greatly improved Chinese 845s.
> <and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market>
> Well, so far, more good stuff has come onto the market including some very
fine
> new valves as above.
Oh aye, it's not all bad news by a long chalk!
> <(Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure
better
> continuity of supply generally....) Agreed
>
> 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear> Agreed
> <OK if a support structure establishes
> itself> There is a good support structure - less than before but maybe
> something like Leica owners or classic car builders.
OK, but I mean in the context that it's no good getting a 'VFM/budget' valve
amp if you are going to get seen off having it fixed. (Also the cost of
getting them shipped about is not insignificant....)
>
> 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves will
result
> in a great raft of legislation swinging into place>
> Why wouldn't this have happened already in the century or so of valve use?
Why
> would a government even bother with such a small issue these days?
Chatting with Len Gregory (The Cartridge Man) a year or two back, he was
having a bit of a rant about VAT/Maggie Thatcher and some legislation that
says (or will say?) that any appliance with a mains lead must be capable of
being lifted by that lead. He said 'not likely with a valve amp. is it?' I
said that's easy - just use kettle leads! (Placated him a bit ;-) Btw, I
asked him if he used valve amps - he said 'yes, of course, nothing else!'
like I was daft for asking..... :-)
>
> I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,
That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe
the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of
scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)
> but the sound
> of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of
musical
> listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find
represents
> the "musical experience".
Yep.
> I think digital amps are coming up fast and I'd see
> the future there rather than in analogue SS. Some digital amps sound
rather
> fine. But valves will live on simply because of the investment people have
made
> in them. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still
be a
> mountain of unused valves out there. Andy
Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs.......
;-)
Keith G
"Mike Gilmour" <mi...@tfjazz.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
OK, a lightning response here also:
> Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the
woods
> (Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you
wanted
> and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.
*Exactamento*
> Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
> here.
I've a very nice chap (Iraqi/Turkish descent living in Brussels) ask me a
string questions about valves atm - Jeez, if you think *we're* hard done by
for valve gear and retail outlets!!!
> It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more
reliable
> valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
> improved upon? >
Absolutely, but of little interest to the *real* Classic Valve Boys!! ;-)
> Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
> heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.
I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming
from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as
good as valves anyway) but from the shite little 'flyaway' slices of brushed
aluminium....
> >
> > The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
(for
> > various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
> to
> > hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively piss all over most ss amps
> I've
> > heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more
than
> > the 'sound quality'......
> >
> > (My 2p only....)
>
> Make that 4p Mike
(It'll take all night to make the price of a pint at this rate!! :-)
Andy Evans
market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities' like Syl
6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have
perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in
valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their principles.
<<I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a
mountain of unused valves out there>>
<Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs.......>
LOL!
Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist.
Wally
> Mind, Max Bygraves at Ł6.50. I need to talk this through with my
> therapist.
Why, are you worried that you might buy it?
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Dave Plowman (News)
Stewart Pinkerton <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently
> powered up,
It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and
plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in
lots of replacements after it was resumed.
But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el
cheapo valve amps are.
--
*The most common name in the world is Mohammed *
Tat Chan
> Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
> sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
> 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first
> ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...'
>
> (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)
>
uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...
:P
> The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
^^^^^^
OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...
Keith G
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> <as demand increases, so does prices>
> I don't know if demand is increasing
Apparently it is and Svetlana want their 'name' back to meet the increased
demand??? (Just gossip - I can't claim that as *fact*....)
> - and remember that a big slice of the
> market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities'
like Syl
> 6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have
> perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in
> valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their
principles.
Quite. Also his prices for Mullard ECC83 remains constant irrespective of
his stock levels. Also, also he won't send them 'over the water' for much
more money although it would be easy to do and if he gets wind of people
profiteering on valves he has let them have at fair prices (on eBay or
whatever) he 'blacks' them for life....!!
> Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my
therapist.
At least there was a quid premium on Frankie!
:-)
Keith G
"Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nd9gqF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Keith G wrote:
> > Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
> > sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question
thus:
> > 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp
first
> > ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece
ewe...'
> >
> > (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)
> >
>
> uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...
>
> :P
OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The
Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)."
(And that's 10 years old!!!)
>
>
>
> > The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
(for
> ^^^^^^
>
> OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...
>
Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-)
Tat Chan
> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2nd9gqF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...
>>
>>:P
>
>
>
> OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The
> Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)."
>
> (And that's 10 years old!!!)
>
I wasn't refering to numbers, just the stereotype down in Oz about Kiwis
being, uhm, rather attached to their sheep ... I could go on, but it
wouldn't be PC ...
;)
>>
>>>The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
>
> (for
>
>> ^^^^^^
>>
>>OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...
>>
>
> Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-)
>
Hmmm, looks like I stuffed up the formatting of the location of my
'^^^^^' characters.
Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
the term 'Chinky'
Trevor Wilson
"Jim Lesurf" <jc...@st-and.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4cd917b...@st-and.demon.co.uk...
> In article <41103e50$1...@news.comindico.com.au>, Trevor Wilson
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> > "StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
> > news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
> > > I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
> > > wait for it to warm up every time I need it?
>
> > **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
> > use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on,
> > accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means
> > electrolytic caps.
>
> I would quibble a bit with this. :-)
**Perhaps you don't see as many amps with dried out electros, as I do.
>
> IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged
> periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged
up
> means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic
> leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in
> leakage current. This should recover with use, though.
**Of course. I was assuming that the amp was to be used at least once per
month. That is plenty to keep a cap formed.
>
> Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use,
> and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a
> slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though.
**"Should". Yes. In actual fact, however, not necessarily. Manufacturers are
driven to maximise profits. Cheap caps make good sense, in that
environment. Very few manufacturers use 100,000 hour rated caps.
>
> FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards.
Mind
> you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of
> 'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be
inclined
> to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving
> things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small
> risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large!
Prefer
> peace of mind.
**Good advice.
As usual.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
>
> > **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
use.
> > There are several reasons
>
>
> <snipped but agreed with entirely>
>
>
> > Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
> > Tell my why you think this is a good idea?
>
>
> OK, Trevor, you're not getting a nibble so I'll respond:
>
> Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
> sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
> 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp
first
> ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece
ewe...'
>
> (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)
**Heheh. Yep.
>
> :-)
>
> Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK
without
> going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
> prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get
into
> valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
> secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
> willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get
a
> good listen without any obligation to spend money.
**Sounds like good, common sense to me.
>
> This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits
that
> have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
> people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
> didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears
to
> have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
> auditioner'!)
>
> However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
> recommend valves to all and sundry as:
>
> 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
> secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
> shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
> disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
> crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
> popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)
**Very possibly. I don't see a major problem, as long as China and Russia
manage to keep their production profitable.
>
> 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope
of
> 'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure
establishes
> itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out
of
> fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie,
you
> are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of
course,
> it can/probably will at some point.....
>
> 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
> voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
> divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into
place
> to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
> like it's doing with everything else these days!
**A good point. Those pesky EU regs have even reached our shores.
>
> The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
> various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
> hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively piss all over most ss amps
I've
> heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
> the 'sound quality'......
**And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just not
worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate.
Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS amp.
That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
common sense above hyperbole.
>
> (My 2p only....)
**And mine.
Stewart Pinkerton
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <ks02h0934jnsi9th9...@4ax.com>,
> Stewart Pinkerton <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently
>> powered up,
>
>It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and
>plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in
>lots of replacements after it was resumed.
> But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el
>cheapo valve amps are.
Indeed, and early computers with up to 10,000 valves also ran 24/7,
although IIRC they required a valve change every ten minutes! Talk
about a job for life.... :-)
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>
>"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
>news:20040804100148...@mb-m22.aol.com...
>> I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,
>
>That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe
>the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
>(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of
>scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)
What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same.
Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other
easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve
amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety)
by any definition of 'high fidelity'.
>> but the sound
>> of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical
>> listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents
>> the "musical experience".
>
>Yep.
Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and
that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios,
you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the
music to which you listen.........................
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>"Mike Gilmour" <mi...@tfjazz.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>> Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
>> heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.
>
>I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming
>from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as
>good as valves anyway) but from the shite little 'flyaway' slices of brushed
>aluminium....
I think you have that the wrong way round. A few select valve amps are
real amps, and can sound damn near as good as most SS amps........
Stewart Pinkerton
<le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Keith G wrote:
>
>> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:2nd9gqF...@uni-berlin.de...
>>>>The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
>>
>> (for
>>
>>> ^^^^^^
>>>
>>>OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...
>>>
>>
>> Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-)
>>
>
>Hmmm, looks like I stuffed up the formatting of the location of my
>'^^^^^' characters.
>
>Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
>the term 'Chinky'
He knows that, but the term is not regarded in the UK as having the
same pejorative context as Paki or nigger - or indeed Pom. What's
Pauline Hanson's take on that? :-)
Tat Chan
> I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound
> of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical
> listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents
> the "musical experience".
If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)
However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
as a signal processor, wouldn't it?
Tat Chan
> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:57:11 +1000, Tat Chan
> <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
>>the term 'Chinky'
>
>
> He knows that, but the term is not regarded in the UK as having the
> same pejorative context as Paki or nigger - or indeed Pom.
Hmmm, maybe due to the lower number of Orientals in the UK? Interesting
that there aren't as many Chinese there compared to migrants from the
Indian subcontinent and the Windies. Could have been something to do
with Hong Kong still being a British colony until 1997, as opposed to
the other colonies achieving independence earlier?
There was an article in an Australian newspaper (can't remember which
one, either The Australian or the Sydney Morning Herald) about Pommy
bashing in the media ...
Articles with headlines like "whinging Poms", "Send them back home", etc
which would have attracted the wrath of the PC groups if they were aimed
at any other ethnic group.
Mind you, most of those articles were probably about sport ... ;)
> What's Pauline Hanson's take on that? :-)
don't know ... she hasn't been in the news lately. Though from memory, I
don't recall her using any derogative terms to describe other ethnic groups.
Andy Evans
There's some truth in all this - Poms abroad are bad news - second most
disliked holiday maker and a reputation for complaining (heard this in France).
Wally
> If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
> part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)
>
> However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the
> signal being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would
> then act as a signal processor, wouldn't it?
The 'extreme', to my mind, is more like a valve guitar amp than a valve hifi
amp.
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Trevor Wilson
**My partner dragged out this quote from some computer guy in the 50's. It
went (to paraphrase):
"Sometime, in the future, computers will weigh less than 1.5 Tons."
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Keith G
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> >news:20040804100148...@mb-m22.aol.com...
>
> >> I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,
> >
> >That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people
believe
> >the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
> >(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair
of
> >scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)
>
> What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same.
Agreed - actually I'd go further and say that what most people believe is
*rarely* 'reality'.....
> Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other
> easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve
> amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety)
> by any definition of 'high fidelity'.
OK, what I need is a better analogy which portrays 'just because it's old
(or even the original) it doesn't mean it can't be the best....'
> Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and
> that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios,
> you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the
> music to which you listen.........................
May or not be the case, but with the average age of my record collection I
wouldn't rule it out. But we've been here before, I don't care what
processes/practices/equipment has/have been used to produce the music I'm
playing - I consider that to be an 'end product' (whatever the format). All
I'm concerned about is what results I get with it from my own reproduction
equipment.
(As it happens, valve and ss amps are about Even Stevens in this house atm -
3 of each.....)
Trevor Wilson
**The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
offensive term. "Pommy bastard" is also a term of great endearment. As in:
"Will ya have another beer, you Pommy Bastard?"
The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.
The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely a
perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms which
are offensive.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> Articles with headlines like "whinging Poms", "Send them back home", etc>
>
> There's some truth in all this - Poms abroad are bad news - second most
> disliked holiday maker and a reputation for complaining (heard this in
France).
**Really? I don't think they have that record down here.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Don Pearce
wrote:
>
>"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:dlh3h09ngfmtuadge...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
>> >news:20040804100148...@mb-m22.aol.com...
>>
>> >> I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,
>> >
>> >That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people
>believe
>> >the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
>> >(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair
>of
>> >scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)
>>
>> What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same.
>
>
>Agreed - actually I'd go further and say that what most people believe is
>*rarely* 'reality'.....
>
I'd go further and say that once you have used the word "believe" you
have guaranteed that it is untrue. If it was true, you would simply
"know". The difference?...
"Believe" = accept without proof
"Know" = accept on the basis of proof
>
>> Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other
>> easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve
>> amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety)
>> by any definition of 'high fidelity'.
>
>
>OK, what I need is a better analogy which portrays 'just because it's old
>(or even the original) it doesn't mean it can't be the best....'
>
Extreme danger of "golden-ageism" here.
>
>
>> Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and
>> that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios,
>> you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the
>> music to which you listen.........................
>
>
>May or not be the case, but with the average age of my record collection I
>wouldn't rule it out. But we've been here before, I don't care what
>processes/practices/equipment has/have been used to produce the music I'm
>playing - I consider that to be an 'end product' (whatever the format). All
>I'm concerned about is what results I get with it from my own reproduction
>equipment.
>
>(As it happens, valve and ss amps are about Even Stevens in this house atm -
>3 of each.....)
>
>
>
What you like is what you like.
d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
Don Pearce
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>**The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
>offensive term. "Pommy bastard" is also a term of great endearment. As in:
>
>"Will ya have another beer, you Pommy Bastard?"
>
>The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.
>
>The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely a
>perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms which
>are offensive.
>
>
>--
>Trevor Wilson
>www.rageaudio.com.au
>
Hee hee - I like that.
Actually all insults work strictly on the basis that they are true -
not that they are insulting per se.
I remember once an Aussie being introduced to a few of us, and this
bloke was the most whingeing bastard who ever walked the earth.
Everything was better in Australia. Anyway, sometime during the
evening, somebody - well fed up - just said to him "you're an
Australian, aren't you?". That did it - he went red and stormed out.
I've no doubt he is even now back home telling everybody about this
pommy rudeness.
So insults can't be given - only accepted.
Keith G
This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
the signal FFS!!!
Trevor Wilson
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"StaffBull" <Staf...@spamtrap.staffbull.net> wrote in message
> >news:ceosn7$n2i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
I
> >> would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
wait
> >> for it to warm up every time I need it?
> >
>
**Nope. Fact.
>
> >There are several reasons for this:
> >* Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts.
In
> >SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves
and
> >electrolytic caps.
>
> Hooey. If it's not a class A amp, or otherwise warm inside, it puts
> less strain on the caps to leave them switched on. Start-up surges are
> a major cause of cap failure.
**Hooey. If a cap is not rated to cope with the switch on of an amp, the
design is faulty. Heat accelerates the wear on ALL electrolytic caps.
>
> My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
> works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
> true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!
**After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps and then tell there is no
sonic, or measurable difference, then I may be prepared to believe you.
After all, we all know (from the experience of valve amp owners) that it is
exceedingly difficult for an amp owner to detect gradual wear on components.
And I do agree, that leaving a hot running amp, permanetly powered (like a
Class A, or valve design) is just dumb. Having said that, it is likely that
your Krell probably uses 105oC rated, computer grade main filter caps
(100,000 hours). I don't know about all the other caps, though. Your
Audiolab uses bog-standard, 85oC rated, 10,000 hour caps. How long is 8
years, again?
>
> >* Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and
> >spikes, which may damage equipment.
>
> Only badly designed equipment, and not everywhere has such crappy
> mains that this is an issue.
**Some line surges cannot be protected against, even by heroic means.
>
> >* Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive.
>
> Neither is farting, but I doubt it's a major issue.
**Every bit helps. As they used to say: "Think globally, act locally." Think
of the money, Stewart.
>
> >Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
> >Tell my why you think this is a good idea?
>
> Seems like a bad idea - much like attempting to drive any decent
> speaker with a cheap valve amp, when the same money would buy you a
> sonically transparent SS amp.
**Ah, we agree on something.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Keith G
Fine - a different opinion based on a different preferences based on a
different credo....
Andy Evans
What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.
Andy Evans
the signal FFS!!!>>
Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because it's
sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like. And anyway, most people
use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such
arguments.
Tat Chan
> This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
> the signal FFS!!!>>
>
> Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because it's
> sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like. And anyway, most people
> use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such
> arguments.
>
yup, what he said, except the "most people use it so it must be better" bit ...
;)
Tat Chan
> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2ne00hF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
>>part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)
>>
>>However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
>>being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
>>as a signal processor, wouldn't it?
>
> This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
> the signal FFS!!!
>
well, it was a sweeping generalisation. But if I was a betting man, I would
wager that a similarly priced SS amp would have less distortion than a valve amp.
Keith, I'm not taking a dig at valve preferences, since there are no right or
wrong preferences.
Trevor Wilson
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> **After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps>
>
> What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.
**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
John Phillips
> ... Having said that, it is likely that
> your Krell probably uses 105oC rated, computer grade main filter caps
> (100,000 hours). I don't know about all the other caps, though. Your
> Audiolab uses bog-standard, 85oC rated, 10,000 hour caps. How long is 8
> years, again?
To be fair, however, at 65 C ambient that 10,000 hours becomes about
40,000 hours (circa 4.5 years) for an 85 C rated electrolytic. At 60 C
it's up to about 56,000 hours (circa 6.5 years). Even that's too hot
to touch and I sincerely hope idling temperature inside a reasonable
non-class-A power amplifier isn't hotter than that.
I only have a sample of two to test but neither exceeds comfortable
external touching threshold at idle (or even in moderate use) so I am
fairly sure the internal idle temperature will not exceed 60 C [1].
Of course my understanding is that the "failure" mechanism is a gradual
reduction in capacitance with time. For unregulated PSUs (i.e. for my
amps) the circuit has to cope with significant ripple voltage anyway,
so the degradation should, by design, not be great.
[1] From measurement: at an ambient of 28 C the amp I am currently
listening through does not exceed 44 C at the hottest external part
of the metal casework and heatsink. Making reasonable allowances
for the thermal conductivity from the inside I doubt the internal
ambient exceeds 60 C.
--
John Phillips
Trevor Wilson
"Don Pearce" <don...@pearce.uk.com> wrote in message
news:7j14h0576olij5ith...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:46:23 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >**The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
> >offensive term. "Pommy bastard" is also a term of great endearment. As
in:
> >
> >"Will ya have another beer, you Pommy Bastard?"
> >
> >The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.
> >
> >The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely
a
> >perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms
which
> >are offensive.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Trevor Wilson
> >www.rageaudio.com.au
> >
>
> Hee hee - I like that.
>
> Actually all insults work strictly on the basis that they are true -
> not that they are insulting per se.
**Fair point. In truth, I have never actually met a whinging Pom. And I have
met quite a few. I've met a few high-spirited young Pommies on holiday. They
acted pretty much how I would expect young Aussies to act when in the UK
(though I understand Aussies are in high demand for casual work in the UK).
>
> I remember once an Aussie being introduced to a few of us, and this
> bloke was the most whingeing bastard who ever walked the earth.
> Everything was better in Australia. Anyway, sometime during the
> evening, somebody - well fed up - just said to him "you're an
> Australian, aren't you?". That did it - he went red and stormed out.
> I've no doubt he is even now back home telling everybody about this
> pommy rudeness.
**There are plenty of arseholes, who call themselves Aussies. Everything is
not better in Australia. Just different.
>
> So insults can't be given - only accepted.
**Touché.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Tat Chan
> Articles with headlines like "whinging Poms", "Send them back home", etc>
>
> There's some truth in all this - Poms abroad are bad news - second most
> disliked holiday maker and a reputation for complaining (heard this in France).
>
>
so who are the most disliked holiday makers?
Trevor Wilson
"Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:411208f7$1$6447$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
**I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test, between two
or three highly regarded amplifiers. I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the better
of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100 and, IMO, was the
most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other valve
amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> **And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
> similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just
not
> worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate.
> Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
> incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS
amp.
On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people
is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the
purchaser is looking for. My argument is that it *seems* they are more
likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this - not
a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is support
readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least
some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to
help when necessary....??)
Let's sum this up with an analogy:
You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time
to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand and
*expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple
and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle an
old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry
when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of
fun!
(I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as
some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the 'knockers'
have ever heard one!)
>
> That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
> common sense above hyperbole.
But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect.....
Keith G
"Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote
> I wasn't refering to numbers, just the stereotype down in Oz about Kiwis
> being, uhm, rather attached to their sheep ... I could go on, but it
> wouldn't be PC ...
>
> ;)
PC?
Don't worry about it - I don't!
;-)
(We're not all Soft Lads in the UK yet!)
> Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
> the term 'Chinky'
Don't take this personally (I'm sure if we met, we'd get on fine) but
ordinarily I'd say 'tough shit, if you don't like it'...!!
(But you're not wrong - technically a 'Chinky' is a Chinese carry-out. :-)
Keith G
> Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:57:11 +1000, Tat Chan
> > <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
> >>the term 'Chinky'
> >
> >
> > He knows that, but the term is not regarded in the UK as having the
> > same pejorative context as Paki or nigger - or indeed Pom.
>
> Hmmm, maybe due to the lower number of Orientals in the UK? Interesting
> that there aren't as many Chinese there compared to migrants from the
> Indian subcontinent and the Windies. Could have been something to do
> with Hong Kong still being a British colony until 1997, as opposed to
> the other colonies achieving independence earlier?
Don't sweat it, me old china (oops) - I'm just Joe Ordinaire, a native Brit
who uses what terms he see fit and doesn't much care what others may make of
it. If you object to anything I say then fine - it's not a condition of
subscribing to this ng, just give it a wide berth. I certainly wouldn't want
to be unkind or offend anybody with a nickname unless they had pissed me
off, but even then it is unlikely I would regard race or country of origin
as a useful basis for insulting anyone. (I believe words like 'wanker' to be
truly non-demoninational but the phrase 'you stupid Eskimo' just doesn't
quite have that ring to it, does it....?? ;-)
Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname and
some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A' and, er,
'Canadians' in 'Canada'...??? (Interesting also that no-one objects to the
term 'Jap' - as opposed to 'Japanese'...???) And so it goes on....
FWIW, while I'm on, I would add that I don't give a FF what colour a person
is but I would admit that I'm getting fed up with seeing my own native
country sagging under the weight of imported Cheap Labour who, due to
increasing weight of numbers, have started to 'feel their oats' and have now
got opinions on what people like me think, say and do. (I'm also getting a
bit fed up of 'ethnics' reporting our news and I don't much care for 'dis,
dat, ting, fink, axe, nutter mean, innit' etc...)
What ethnic groups need to realise is that they will get/have already got
'nicknames' and what those nicknames mean is *earned* their by their own
behaviour, attitudes and actions - for instance, where I come from the early
negro immigrants were called 'Darkies', now other terms are deemed more
fitting by some......
See my point?
To get back on topic - I've got absolutely no problem with Chinky gear and
welcome the opportunity for a) skint Brits to acquire very decent products
like DVDPs at silly cheap prices (which is rendered necessary by them not
having a job due to the imported Cheap Labour - see above) and b) other 'Joe
Ordinaires' like me in other countries get the chance to earn a few bob and
buy the same DVDP for themselves....
One last point (a deep one, consider it carefully) - with all this
'multicultural society' BS think how arse-grindingly boring this planet will
become when we *do* have 'coffee-coloured people' everywhere, eating,
drinking, playing, listening to, watching, wearing, driving, riding,
worshipping, thinking *exactly* the same stuff......
(If the bugs or 'an asteroid the size of Texas' don't get us all
first....!!! ;-)
Don Pearce
I suspect that for both countries, our main exposure to people from
the other is in the form of people of a certain age and demeanour -
mid twenties and plenty of exploring spirit. Mostly they are great,
some have a chip. That's how it goes.
tony sayer
>
>"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
>news:20040805063806...@mb-m13.aol.com...
>> **After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps>
>>
>> What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.
>
>**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.
>
>
Yes so does mine, and when its around 10 years young I'll put it on the
bench and change them, not a difficult job. In the meantime it measures
as it did new, and after 10 years or thereabouts I do expect it will be
in need of some attention.
Like the old QUAD33/303 that I've re-capped, works a treat and measures
to spec and that's now some 33 years old so not bad going, and I expect
it'll last many more years yet, and it does look every bit as good as it
did when new:)
And drives the wife's chinky built QUAD 11L's fine, pity they weren't
built in the UK, but I suppose we wont work for as little money as they
do....
--
Tony Sayer
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
>
>
> > **And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
> > similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just
> not
> > worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully
inadequate.
> > Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
> > incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS
> amp.
>
>
> On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people
> is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the
> purchaser is looking for.
**Perhaps. The Empreror's New Clothes syndrome is not unknown in this area.
A client dumped an old pair of 3 Watt valve amps in for me to fix. Two of
the four output trannies were shot and all the caps and resistors, along
with a bunch of the tubes had to be replaced. The quote for repair was
around AUS$700.00. I offered him an alternative, for around AUS$200.00,
which if he was unhappy, I would gladly rebuild his amp to new spec and give
him the 200 Bucks back (whilst charging him the 700 Smackers, of course).
Win-win.
He accepted by cheap alternative. I dutifully repaired his amp and returned
it. he LOVED it. "it sounds better than it ever has." he said. Cool,
everyone's happy.
My repair involved the fitting of 4 SS power amp ICs, along with some HF and
LF filtering, to simulate typical tube frwquency responses.
I never told him what I had done.
My argument is that it *seems* they are more
> likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this -
not
> a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is
support
> readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least
> some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to
> help when necessary....??)
>
> Let's sum this up with an analogy:
>
> You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time
> to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand
and
> *expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple
> and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle
an
> old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry
> when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of
> fun!
**Your analogy is faulty. Cheap Chinese valve amps are more expensive than
good quality, new SS amps (Rotel, Arcam, et al). Those pesky output
transformers ensure that valve amps will ALWAYS cost more than approximately
equivalent SS amps.
>
> (I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as
> some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the
'knockers'
> have ever heard one!)
**I have. I can hear their problems. They distort. They have no place in hi
fi. Some look mighty purty though.
>
> >
> > That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
> > common sense above hyperbole.
>
>
> But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect.....
**Correctomundo.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IP6BtVAB...@bancom.co.uk...
> In article <4112...@news.comindico.com.au>, Trevor Wilson
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> writes
> >
> >"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> >news:20040805063806...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> >> **After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps>
> >>
> >> What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.
> >
> >**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.
> >
> >
>
> Yes so does mine, and when its around 10 years young I'll put it on the
> bench and change them, not a difficult job. In the meantime it measures
> as it did new, and after 10 years or thereabouts I do expect it will be
> in need of some attention.
**And if you switch it on and off, as required, it should last longer. Much
longer.
>
> Like the old QUAD33/303 that I've re-capped, works a treat and measures
> to spec and that's now some 33 years old so not bad going, and I expect
> it'll last many more years yet, and it does look every bit as good as it
> did when new:)
**My bench amp is a 1968 model Marantz Model Eighteen receiver. I switch it
on and off as required. It has been used 6 days a week, since I purchased it
in 1975. Not only are all the electros in good order (well, they were about
5 years ago, when I,lifted the lid), the only two problems I have
experienced are:
* The CRO tube failed (normal).
* I smoked the output devices, whilst driving a faulty loudspeaker, for
about an hour one day.
>
> And drives the wife's chinky built QUAD 11L's fine, pity they weren't
> built in the UK, but I suppose we wont work for as little money as they
> do....
**No one does.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Arny Krueger
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:57:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <ks02h0934jnsi9th9...@4ax.com>,
>> Stewart Pinkerton <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be
>>> permanently powered up,
>>
>> It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve,
>> and plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could
>> result in lots of replacements after it was resumed.
>> But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el
>> cheapo valve amps are.
>
> Indeed, and early computers with up to 10,000 valves also ran 24/7,
> although IIRC they required a valve change every ten minutes! Talk
> about a job for life.... :-)
Given that the tubes were probably good for at least 10,000 hour MTBF, as
much as an hour's worth of sustained operation might have been possible.
I worked on radar equipment with about 400 tubes, and with luck I could keep
it going for about 24 hours at a time. My person goal was a reliable 8
hours - namely the night shift.
Stewart Pinkerton
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>**The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
>offensive term. "Pommy bastard" is also a term of great endearment. As in:
>
>"Will ya have another beer, you Pommy Bastard?"
>
>The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.
>
>The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely a
>perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms which
>are offensive.
What would a whinging ocker know about it? :-)
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Stewart Pinkerton
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ueh3h05ucp93489d3...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:57:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <ks02h0934jnsi9th9...@4ax.com>,
>> > Stewart Pinkerton <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently
>> >> powered up,
>> >
>> >It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and
>> >plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in
>> >lots of replacements after it was resumed.
>> > But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el
>> >cheapo valve amps are.
>>
>> Indeed, and early computers with up to 10,000 valves also ran 24/7,
>> although IIRC they required a valve change every ten minutes! Talk
>> about a job for life.... :-)
>
>**My partner dragged out this quote from some computer guy in the 50's. It
>went (to paraphrase):
>"Sometime, in the future, computers will weigh less than 1.5 Tons."
Well, he was right, wasn't he? :-)
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>(I believe words like 'wanker' to be
>truly non-demoninational but the phrase 'you stupid Eskimo' just doesn't
>quite have that ring to it, does it....?? ;-)
Oops, yes it does - the correct term is Inuit.
>Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname and
>some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A'
Let's not forget Gringos!
> and, er,
>'Canadians' in 'Canada'...???
Canucks, shurely? Or Loonies?
> (Interesting also that no-one objects to the
>term 'Jap' - as opposed to 'Japanese'...???)
Actually, this is a pretty common objection.
> And so it goes on....
>
>FWIW, while I'm on, I would add that I don't give a FF what colour a person
>is but I would admit that I'm getting fed up with seeing my own native
>country sagging under the weight of imported Cheap Labour who, due to
>increasing weight of numbers, have started to 'feel their oats' and have now
>got opinions on what people like me think, say and do. (I'm also getting a
>bit fed up of 'ethnics' reporting our news and I don't much care for 'dis,
>dat, ting, fink, axe, nutter mean, innit' etc...)
Ah, the good old days of Beeb Beeb Ceeb English as she should be
spoke!
>What ethnic groups need to realise is that they will get/have already got
>'nicknames' and what those nicknames mean is *earned* their by their own
>behaviour, attitudes and actions - for instance, where I come from the early
>negro immigrants were called 'Darkies', now other terms are deemed more
>fitting by some......
>
>See my point?
Well, negro is simply Spanish for black, and black is a generally
accepted term the se days. I wonder what's acceptable in
Spanish-speaking countries? :-)
BTW, there's really nothing so pathetically PC as 'African-American',
or indeed 'Native American'. Also, real Africans can't stand black
Americans! Or of course, each other...................
>To get back on topic - I've got absolutely no problem with Chinky gear and
>welcome the opportunity for a) skint Brits to acquire very decent products
>like DVDPs at silly cheap prices (which is rendered necessary by them not
>having a job due to the imported Cheap Labour - see above) and b) other 'Joe
>Ordinaires' like me in other countries get the chance to earn a few bob and
>buy the same DVDP for themselves....
You wouldn't say that if you owned any patents on stuff the Chinese
are ripping off!
>One last point (a deep one, consider it carefully) - with all this
>'multicultural society' BS think how arse-grindingly boring this planet will
>become when we *do* have 'coffee-coloured people' everywhere, eating,
>drinking, playing, listening to, watching, wearing, driving, riding,
>worshipping, thinking *exactly* the same stuff......
But none of use will be allowed to wear mink - even a blue one!
>(If the bugs or 'an asteroid the size of Texas' don't get us all
>first....!!! ;-)
Didn't the Bugs launch those asteroids at us?
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>
Good SS kit doesn't *audibly* distort the signal, which is what
matters. That of course is why all competent amps sound the same -
even valve ones.
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> > Neither is farting, but I doubt it's a major issue.
>
> **Every bit helps. As they used to say: "Think globally, act locally."
Think
> of the money, Stewart.
Jeez, I thought farting was the one pleasure left that didn't cost money!
(I must owe fekkin' millions..... :-)
Keith G
"Don Pearce" <don...@pearce.uk.com> wrote
> "Believe" = accept without proof
> "Know" = accept on the basis of proof
There you go, man, keep as cool as you can,
Face piles of trials with smiles.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free....
(Dan dan dan daaaan....)
:-)
> Extreme danger of "golden-ageism" here.
Always.
> What you like is what you like.
Yep! - Even if we don't know it!
;-)
Keith G
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
> the signal FFS!!!>>
>
> Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because
it's
> sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like. And anyway, most
people
> use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such
> arguments.
So true.......
Keith G
> Keith G wrote:
>
> > "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:2ne00hF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
>
> >>If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
> >>part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)
> >>
> >>However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
> >>being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
> >>as a signal processor, wouldn't it?
> >
> > This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't*
distort
> > the signal FFS!!!
> >
>
> well, it was a sweeping generalisation. But if I was a betting man, I
would
> wager that a similarly priced SS amp would have less distortion than a
valve amp.
Very likely - strong chance it wouldn't be Class A tho......
>
> Keith, I'm not taking a dig at valve preferences, since there are no right
or
> wrong preferences.
Agreed
Keith G
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote
> >This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
> >the signal FFS!!!
>
> Good SS kit doesn't *audibly* distort the signal, which is what
> matters. That of course is why all competent amps sound the same -
> even valve ones.
Absolutely agree
on paper
but
in the real world
they
quite simply
dont......
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> **I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test, between
two
> or three highly regarded amplifiers.
That's so not easy to do in Blighty.....
> I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
> Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the
better
> of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100
OK, that's fekkin' impossible for a start....
> and, IMO, was the
> most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other valve
> amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.
I still say there's plenty of people who ain't too bunched up about
distortion and just enjoy the music....
Keith G
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote
> Let's not forget Gringos!
You mean 'The Alamos' shorely??
>
> > and, er,
> >'Canadians' in 'Canada'...???
>
> Canucks, shurely?
I thought those were 'kayaks'....???
> Ah, the good old days of Beeb Beeb Ceeb English as she should be
> spoke!
Yes, in Ye Olde Englande where I was taught that it was right to be decent,
generous, modest and self-effacing. (Not a flash, loud and fly as f*ck
rip-off artist and scammer....)
> Well, negro is simply Spanish for black, and black is a generally
> accepted term the se days. I wonder what's acceptable in
> Spanish-speaking countries? :-)
US Dollars anywhere, Amex, Visa and Mastercard in most places...
>
> BTW, there's really nothing so pathetically PC as 'African-American',
> or indeed 'Native American'. Also, real Africans can't stand black
> Americans! Or of course, each other...................
No argument from me on this one.....
Mike Gilmour
> **The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
> offensive term. "Pommy bastard" is also a term of great endearment. As in:
>
> "Will ya have another beer, you Pommy Bastard?"
>
> The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.
>
> The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely
a
> perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms which
> are offensive.
>
>
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Living in the Highlands for over 20 years I've learnt quite a bit about the
local population. "Tight arsed Scot" here is a bit of a misnomer as they
are exceedingly generous especially in local charity collections and
generally in a bar :-) "Miserable Scot" is accurate though, especially
with the older generation living in small 'close nit' communities. To live
here as a 'white settler' it goes with the territory that you will encounter
ongoing hatred in some areas (rarely open) and property damage - with
absolutely no recourse to the law (remember the police are 'local' also).
To quote a recent local newspaper letter:
"We all know of provinces within the catchment area where anglophobia is not
merely overt, it is mandatory. The truth is, Highlanders want to keep the
Highlands Highland: they are not against blacks, or homosexuals, or the
mentally ill, or the English. No, they are against all non-Highlanders.
Frequently, when the coat of so-called "Highland hospitality" meets with the
most superficial of scratches, it is exposed as a myth. So many of the
indigenous population want to fossilize their heritage and ancient notions
of their identity that all newcomers, tourists or otherwise, can expect to
be made to feel apologetic for merely being present on these shores."
How true. But with all that its still a great place to live, for stunning
scenery, clean air, fresh fish and good schools. (Don't mention midges)
There, I've hade my rant, now back to valves....
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> He accepted by cheap alternative. I dutifully repaired his amp and
returned
> it. he LOVED it. "it sounds better than it ever has." he said. Cool,
> everyone's happy.
Yep, just like someone with a valve amp who loves the sound and either
hasn't got a clue or doesn't give a rat's about
<makes sign of the cross with both index fingers>
*distortion*
<hissing and spitting from all assembled.....>
>
> My repair involved the fitting of 4 SS power amp ICs, along with some HF
and
> LF filtering, to simulate typical tube frwquency responses.
>
> I never told him what I had done.
Iggrance is bliss, they dew say..... ;-)
> > Let's sum this up with an analogy:
> **Your analogy is faulty.
Yes, seems I've got a bad batch on the go atm.....
> Cheap Chinese valve amps are more expensive than
> good quality, new SS amps (Rotel, Arcam, et al).
Yebbut, where's the sodding valves??? We're talking about people who want a
*valve* amp not some boring little slice of 5-star (for the month) brushed
aluminium, 'built down to a price'....yadda yadda yadda.....
> Those pesky output
> transformers ensure that valve amps will ALWAYS cost more than
approximately
> equivalent SS amps.
Oooh! He said *transformers* :-)
Oooh! Suits you!
(I got Hammonds on my latest -
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keith_g/show/2a3amp01.jpg )
:-)
Wally
> (I got Hammonds on my latest -
> http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keith_g/show/2a3amp01.jpg )
Nice looking amp, that. Makes me think about straightening the bent bit on
mine and giving it some paint...
...but I can't be arsed.
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Eiron
>>>'Canadians' in 'Canada'...???
>>
>>Canucks, shurely?
>
>
>
> I thought those were 'kayaks'....???
Not in England.
We kneel on Canadians and stroke on one side only,
whereas we sit in kayaks and stroke on both sides....
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>
Sorry Keith. If you shunt your prejudices and imagination to one side,
and run double-blind level-matched comparisons - they quite simply do.
Used below clipping, A Krell 700 sounds just like an ARC Reference
600, sounds just like an Arcam A85. The ones that sound *different*
(i.e. most SETs and other crappy valve amps), are basically broken.
As you might say - just *trust* your ears..................
Stewart Pinkerton
Curious little factoid - there are more people of Scots extraction in
Canada, than there are in Scotland. Personally, I've never stroked a
kayak, but OTOH........................
Trevor Wilson
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>
>"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
>news:20040805064317...@mb-m13.aol.com...
>> This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
>> the signal FFS!!!>>
>>
>> Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because
>it's
>> sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like.
Well no, the point is that it *is* sonically transparent, i.e. it
*sounds* just like the input, regardless of what the numbers say. Of
course, if you *prefer* it to sound *different* from the input, that
would be your choice. Just don't call it 'high fidelity', OK?
>And anyway, most people
>> use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such
>> arguments.
Stoopid, perhaps? Or just rebellious? You can easily spot a rebel - he
uses the same kit as all the other rebels...................
>So true.......
Great album - whatever happened to Spandau Ballet?
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
>
>> **I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test, between two
>> or three highly regarded amplifiers.
>
>That's so not easy to do in Blighty.....
Yes it is - I have at least two 'highly regarded' amplifiers right
here, a Krell KSA-50 mkII and an Audiolab 8000P. And I can get hold of
another half-dozen within the week.
>> I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
>> Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the better
>> of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100
>
>OK, that's fekkin' impossible for a start....
Excuse me? Care to expand? Remember Keith, a *good* valve amp does
indeed sound just like a good SS amp - why wouldn't it?
>> and, IMO, was the
>> most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other valve
>> amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.
>
>I still say there's plenty of people who ain't too bunched up about
>distortion and just enjoy the music....
Sure there are - and most of them listen through SS amps.........
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2neinc...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Keith G wrote:
> >
> > > "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:2ne00hF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> >
> > >>If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
> > >>part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)
> > >>
> > >>However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the
signal
> > >>being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
> > >>as a signal processor, wouldn't it?
> > >
> > > This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't*
> distort
> > > the signal FFS!!!
> > >
> >
> > well, it was a sweeping generalisation. But if I was a betting man, I
> would
> > wager that a similarly priced SS amp would have less distortion than a
> valve amp.
>
>
> Very likely - strong chance it wouldn't be Class A tho......
**So what? The need for Class A operation of a hi fi amplifier is both
vastly overstated and, in most cases, simply untrue.
Provided an amplifier is competently designed and reasonably biassed (into
the linear operating region of the active deive/s) more bias current (Class
A) is simply overkill and unnecessary. Moreover, the Class A operating point
of an amplifier is completley dependent upon the load connected to that
amplifier. For instance: Stewart's Krell is rated for 50 Watts Class A
operation into an 8 Ohm load. Thus, it's Class A operating point is 25 Watts
@ 4 Ohms and 12.5 Watts @ 2 Ohms, etc.
As for the statement that an amplifier is Class A, most are not. Here's a
few I've measured:
Musical Fidelity A370 - Rated at 185 Watts Class A. Actual Class A power -
15 Watts.
Musical Fidelity A1 - Rated at 20 Watts Class A - Actual Class A power - 2
Watts.
Krell KSA150 - Inferred Class A power 150 Watts - Actual Class A power - 35
Watts.
Krell KSA200 - Inferred Class A power 200 Watts - Actual Class A power - 40
Watts.
Marantz PM80-II (Class A switched on) - Claimed Class A power 30 Watts -
Actual Class A power - 3 Watts.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
>
>
> > **I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test, between
> two
> > or three highly regarded amplifiers.
>
>
> That's so not easy to do in Blighty.....
**Then, unto you do, I suggest you cease saying stuff like:
"Absolutely agree
on paper
but
in the real world
they
quite simply
dont......"
>
>
> > I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
> > Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the
> better
> > of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100
>
>
> OK, that's fekkin' impossible for a start....
**Nothing is impossible.
>
>
> > and, IMO, was the
> > most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other valve
> > amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.
>
>
> I still say there's plenty of people who ain't too bunched up about
> distortion and just enjoy the music....
**I'm sure they do.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
**I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never told me
what was in it. It tasted fine.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
>
> > He accepted by cheap alternative. I dutifully repaired his amp and
> returned
> > it. he LOVED it. "it sounds better than it ever has." he said. Cool,
> > everyone's happy.
>
>
> Yep, just like someone with a valve amp who loves the sound and either
> hasn't got a clue or doesn't give a rat's about
>
> <makes sign of the cross with both index fingers>
>
> *distortion*
>
> <hissing and spitting from all assembled.....>
**Nope. Neither. It is not that difficult to build an amplifier which sounds
as bad as a cheap valve amp. The REAL tricky thing, is to build a GOOD valve
amp. THAT is hard work. For the record: I cut my teeth on valve amps and,
for as recently as 1980 (or thereabouts) I was using a highly modified
Dynaco valve preamp in my own system.
Further and for the record: I have no problems with mild amounts of
distortion, PROVIDED the levels are below what is accepted to be audible.
>
> >
> > My repair involved the fitting of 4 SS power amp ICs, along with some HF
> and
> > LF filtering, to simulate typical tube frwquency responses.
> >
> > I never told him what I had done.
>
>
> Iggrance is bliss, they dew say..... ;-)
>
>
>
> > > Let's sum this up with an analogy:
>
>
> > **Your analogy is faulty.
>
>
> Yes, seems I've got a bad batch on the go atm.....
>
>
> > Cheap Chinese valve amps are more expensive than
> > good quality, new SS amps (Rotel, Arcam, et al).
>
>
> Yebbut, where's the sodding valves???
**They're not necessary. You could do what Musical Fidelity do: Chuck a
couple of useless valve in an amplifier and charge a huge premium for it, I
guess. Personally, I don't see the point crippling a design and artificially
inflating it's price.
We're talking about people who want a
> *valve* amp not some boring little slice of 5-star (for the month) brushed
> aluminium, 'built down to a price'....yadda yadda yadda.....
**And there is the rub. As I asked a long time ago: Why? If more people who
imagine valve amps are the way to go actually listened to some of the
planet's finest valve amps, in comparison to some good SS amps, they may
well realise that they've been conned. REALLY good valve amps sound just
like really good SS amps. Only crappy valve amps sound different
(distorted).
>
> > Those pesky output
> > transformers ensure that valve amps will ALWAYS cost more than
> approximately
> > equivalent SS amps.
>
>
> Oooh! He said *transformers* :-)
>
> Oooh! Suits you!
>
> (I got Hammonds on my latest -
> http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keith_g/show/2a3amp01.jpg )
**Very nice.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Keith G
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote
> Well no, the point is that it *is* sonically transparent, i.e. it
> *sounds* just like the input, regardless of what the numbers say. Of
> course, if you *prefer* it to sound *different* from the input, that
> would be your choice. Just don't call it 'high fidelity', OK?
When have I ever? Haven't always made the point that if you didn't attend
the recorded event how TF would you know?
How much 'input' (ie live events, I suppose) *doesn't* actually sound quite
shite at the time? (LSO at the Barbie excepted...)
I'm not hung up on 'fidelity' - I'm only interested in the 'sound' I get
from kit. I have no trouble identifying instruments, voices or sounds and I
get more 'space' and detail from my valves than I do from my SS amps and I
don't get fatigued/bored by them, unlike ss amps when I find often that I've
switched off (ears not kit) at some stage...
Now, if you are going to tell me an arc-welder ss amp costing thousands will
kick my piddly little valve amps (which cost only so many hundred) I'm going
to say 'so frickin' what?'
(Today, I have only run 2 different amps - both ss.... ;-)
> Stoopid, perhaps? Or just rebellious? You can easily spot a rebel - he
> uses the same kit as all the other rebels...................
Yeah - mostly Arcam atm.....
>
> >So true.......
>
> Great album - whatever happened to Spandau Ballet?
Went into Eastenders, I believe.....
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:4112...@news.comindico.com.au...
That's *exactly* what I said - 'strong chance it wouldn't be Class A tho'
innit??
Both my valve are *fully* Class A and'experts' have assured me it makes a
Difference....!!!
(Can't say I could tell, myself other than the amps are most pleasant and
very engaging!)
Keith G
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@dircon.co.uk> wrote
> Sorry Keith. If you shunt your prejudices and imagination to one side,
> and run double-blind level-matched comparisons - they quite simply do.
> Used below clipping, A Krell 700 sounds just like an ARC Reference
> 600, sounds just like an Arcam A85. The ones that sound *different*
> (i.e. most SETs and other crappy valve amps), are basically broken.
>
> As you might say - just *trust* your ears..................
That's just what I *don't* do - I'm too involved. I ask others who have (or
claim to have) Golden Ears....
What I detect for myself is abstract (ie difficult to measure) stuff like
'emotion' and engagement. Believe me, if I could get better from ss gear,
I'd bloody use ss gear!
I am fully aware of the areas where ss gear wins over valves and, like I
said just now, the only two amps I've run today (one on the computer) were
two little shite Technics cheapies that I absolutely love - I just don't use
them when I want the 'Full Monty'
OK, I don't think you've got Broadband, so this track (at 7 meg):
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keith_g/show/07%20Same%20Time%20Tomorrow.mp3
isn't going to help you, but I've posted it as a good example (taken almost
at random - I was listening to the album earlier today) as a very good
example of the type of stuff I like and which sounds 1000% better (space,
depth, imaging, texture, timbre) when played through valves.
(*Trust me* on this....!!! ;-)
Trevor Wilson
**And my question was: Who cares? Full Class A operation of any amplifier
(save SE products, of course) is simply not necessary. I will say this,
however: Opertaing a crappily designed amplifier into Class A, will likely
make it sound better than it otherwise would. Operating a properly designed
amplifier into Class A, will not make it any better.
>
> Both my valve are *fully* Class A and'experts' have assured me it makes a
> Difference....!!!
**What is the load impedance? Does it vary? Your unamed "experts" are
entitled to their opinions. Their opinions will be givne the weighting they
deserve (ie: none).
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Keith G
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:52:11 +0100, "Keith G" <kei...@dsl.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> >
> >> **I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test,
between two
> >> or three highly regarded amplifiers.
> >
> >That's so not easy to do in Blighty.....
>
> Yes it is - I have at least two 'highly regarded' amplifiers right
> here, a Krell KSA-50 mkII and an Audiolab 8000P. And I can get hold of
> another half-dozen within the week.
OK, if you could be arsed to assemble the gear I'd make the effort to come
an d try it, but I simply don't trust my own ears - I accomodate too
quickly. I make my own choices over a period of weeks or months - the winner
is the kit that I keep in the loop or keep going back to!
>
> >> I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
> >> Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the
better
> >> of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100
> >
> >OK, that's fekkin' impossible for a start....
>
> Excuse me? Care to expand? Remember Keith, a *good* valve amp does
> indeed sound just like a good SS amp - why wouldn't it?
I was only referring to 'borrowing' a VT100 (or even getting sight of one,
come to that)!
>
> >> and, IMO, was the
> >> most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other
valve
> >> amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.
> >
> >I still say there's plenty of people who ain't too bunched up about
> >distortion and just enjoy the music....
>
> Sure there are - and most of them listen through SS amps.........
But I thought there is *no* (audible) distortion with ss amps....???
Keith G
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote
> **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never told
me
> what was in it. It tasted fine.
Woah! You think so?
(I'm going to have trouble with your opinions from now on......!!!)
Tat Chan
> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2ne1mdF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname and
> some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A' and, er,
or Seppos ...
> 'Canadians' in 'Canada'...??? (Interesting also that no-one objects to the
Canucks ...
> term 'Jap' - as opposed to 'Japanese'...???) And so it goes on....
Well, I use the term Japs myself, I much prefer it to Nips since I feel
that Nip == Nippon which was part of their WW2 empire.
>
> FWIW, while I'm on, I would add that I don't give a FF what colour a person
> is but I would admit that I'm getting fed up with seeing my own native
> country sagging under the weight of imported Cheap Labour who, due to
> increasing weight of numbers, have started to 'feel their oats' and have now
are you talking about illegal labour, or cheaper labour from poorer
countries of the EU?
The Oz govt has tightened migration laws here, so most of the new
migrants are highly skilled (though walking around Sydney, it doesn't
seem to be the case! Then again, a cabbie could be an out of work
nuclear physicist!)
> got opinions on what people like me think, say and do. (I'm also getting a
> bit fed up of 'ethnics' reporting our news and I don't much care for 'dis,
> dat, ting, fink, axe, nutter mean, innit' etc...)
are you refering to ethnic news readers? I don't have cable TV, so I
don't have access to BBC News or Sky News (and thankfully, no access to
Fox News!)
On a side note, I was informed by a person from China that back in the
early 90s when people were learning English, they would emulate the
accent and pronounciation of BBC newsreaders. The current generation
though takes its cues from CNN ...
>
> What ethnic groups need to realise is that they will get/have already got
> 'nicknames' and what those nicknames mean is *earned* their by their own
> behaviour, attitudes and actions - for instance, where I come from the early
> negro immigrants were called 'Darkies', now other terms are deemed more
> fitting by some......
>
> See my point?
when I was growing up, there was a brand of toothpaste with a black man
on it called "Darkie" ... they have since renamed it to "Darlie".
Well, sometimes nicknames are bestowed unfairly. Myself, I have no
problems with people from other ethnic groups, though I do find that if
I realise the individuals I have contact with from a particular group
are absolute wankers, I find myself wanting to bring out a nickname or
two ...
It has always been my stance that all migrants should try their best to
fit into their new country. Not necessarily total assimilation, but good
enough so that they are part of society.
Myself, I have always wanted to be just another member of society, and I
don't ask for any special favours. I just want to be part of the crowd
at the pub, footy, gig, on the beach, doing my bit for my local
community, etc. It is only when I get singled out for being different
that I get pissed off.
> To get back on topic - I've got absolutely no problem with Chinky
gear > and welcome the opportunity for a) skint Brits to acquire very
decent > products like DVDPs at silly cheap prices (which is rendered
necessary > by them not having a job due to the imported Cheap Labour -
see above)
well, the cheap Chinese labour can't last for long. The standard of
living will go up there and they will demand wages themselves, which
means that production will shift to another country where labour is
cheap ... hmmm ... "made in Sudan", anyone? ;)
> One last point (a deep one, consider it carefully) - with all this
> 'multicultural society' BS think how arse-grindingly boring this planet will
> become when we *do* have 'coffee-coloured people' everywhere, eating,
> drinking, playing, listening to, watching, wearing, driving, riding,
> worshipping, thinking *exactly* the same stuff......
now that is a marketers dream come true! only one ad campaign for the
whole world! ;)
Tat Chan
>
> **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never told me
> what was in it. It tasted fine.
>
Did you eat haggis in Oz or overseas?
I like haggis. I lived in a Scottish college (it was more than just a
dorm, I think the original plan was for it to resemble the Oxbridge
colleges, but that never took off) while at university, and they used to
wheel out haggis during black tie dinners several times a year (after
reciting Robert Burns' "Ode to a Haggis")
And it turns out the butcher they got the haggis from is just down the
road from where I live now!
Trevor Wilson
>
> But I thought there is *no* (audible) distortion with ss amps....???
**I do not believe that for one minute and I doubt that Stewart does,
either. There are lots of examples of crappy SS amps. There are lots of
examples of very good SS amps. There are a bunch of caveats, which most
people do not quite grasp (the following are some gross generalisations):
* Valve amps do not act as Voltage sources. As a consequence, they only work
best into a very limited range of impedances (usually determined by the
tapping on the output transformer). Triodes are more forgiving and pentodes
much less so.
* SS amps act as Voltage sources. As a consequence, they operate well into a
load which has a widely varying impedance (99.9% of all loudspeakers)
* Valve amps (notably Triodes) are more 'forgiving' of difficult loads than
most SS amps. This is the ironic difference between valve and SS amps.
Whilst SS amps can more properly operate speakers (due to their inherently
low output impedance), they can't cope very well with difficult loads.
* Well designed SS amps can not only operate well into a wide range of load
impedances, but can cope with difficult loads as well. This subset of SS
amps is usually quite a small one. It is, perhaps, the subset you should be
listening to, if you really want to hear how a good SS amp can sound.
* SET amps are a con-job.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Wally
> **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never
> told me what was in it. It tasted fine.
http://www.wally.myby.co.uk/haggis/index.htm
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Trevor Wilson
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>
> >
> > **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never
told me
> > what was in it. It tasted fine.
> >
>
> Did you eat haggis in Oz or overseas?
**In Oz.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> Keith G wrote:
>
> > "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:2ne1mdF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> >
> > Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname and
> > some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A' and, er,
>
> or Seppos ...
>
> > 'Canadians' in 'Canada'...??? (Interesting also that no-one objects to
the
>
> Canucks ...
>
> > term 'Jap' - as opposed to 'Japanese'...???) And so it goes on....
>
> Well, I use the term Japs myself, I much prefer it to Nips since I feel
> that Nip == Nippon which was part of their WW2 empire.
>
> >
> > FWIW, while I'm on, I would add that I don't give a FF what colour a
person
> > is but I would admit that I'm getting fed up with seeing my own native
> > country sagging under the weight of imported Cheap Labour who, due to
> > increasing weight of numbers, have started to 'feel their oats' and have
now
>
> are you talking about illegal labour, or cheaper labour from poorer
> countries of the EU?
>
> The Oz govt has tightened migration laws here, so most of the new
> migrants are highly skilled (though walking around Sydney, it doesn't
> seem to be the case! Then again, a cabbie could be an out of work
> nuclear physicist!)
**I know what you mean. My masseusse is a (female) Polish wrestler of
olympic quality (she wrestles men, here in Oz, due to the lack of female
competition. She usually beats the men, too. It really pisses them off.
Sidenote: She looks more like a model than a wrestler.
>
>
> > got opinions on what people like me think, say and do. (I'm also getting
a
> > bit fed up of 'ethnics' reporting our news and I don't much care for
'dis,
> > dat, ting, fink, axe, nutter mean, innit' etc...)
>
> are you refering to ethnic news readers? I don't have cable TV, so I
> don't have access to BBC News or Sky News (and thankfully, no access to
> Fox News!)
>
> On a side note, I was informed by a person from China that back in the
> early 90s when people were learning English, they would emulate the
> accent and pronounciation of BBC newsreaders. The current generation
> though takes its cues from CNN ...
**I dated a Chinese girl a few years ago. I recall going to meet her (93
year old) grandmother. Here was this tiny Chinese woman, who, when she
spoke, sound as though she was born and raised in Wagga Wagga (which she
was). And, as they say in Wagga Wagga: "Don't call Wagga Wagga, Wagga."
>
> >
> > What ethnic groups need to realise is that they will get/have already
got
> > 'nicknames' and what those nicknames mean is *earned* their by their own
> > behaviour, attitudes and actions - for instance, where I come from the
early
> > negro immigrants were called 'Darkies', now other terms are deemed more
> > fitting by some......
> >
> > See my point?
>
> when I was growing up, there was a brand of toothpaste with a black man
> on it called "Darkie" ... they have since renamed it to "Darlie".
>
> Well, sometimes nicknames are bestowed unfairly. Myself, I have no
> problems with people from other ethnic groups, though I do find that if
> I realise the individuals I have contact with from a particular group
> are absolute wankers, I find myself wanting to bring out a nickname or
> two ...
>
> It has always been my stance that all migrants should try their best to
> fit into their new country. Not necessarily total assimilation, but good
> enough so that they are part of society.
**A reasonable desire. I visited some newly arrived Vietnamese guys once.
none could speak any English. The only word we had in common was: "Beer". We
got on just fine, after that. :-)
>
> Myself, I have always wanted to be just another member of society, and I
> don't ask for any special favours. I just want to be part of the crowd
> at the pub, footy, gig, on the beach, doing my bit for my local
> community, etc. It is only when I get singled out for being different
> that I get pissed off.
**You'll fit in just fine ion most areas of Sydney. I'm in Hurstville and I
am in the minority ethnic group (Anglo).
>
>
> > To get back on topic - I've got absolutely no problem with Chinky
> gear > and welcome the opportunity for a) skint Brits to acquire very
> decent > products like DVDPs at silly cheap prices (which is rendered
> necessary > by them not having a job due to the imported Cheap Labour -
> see above)
>
> well, the cheap Chinese labour can't last for long. The standard of
> living will go up there and they will demand wages themselves, which
> means that production will shift to another country where labour is
> cheap ... hmmm ... "made in Sudan", anyone? ;)
**Dream on. There are 1.3 Billion Chinese who desire a better standard of
living. That will take quite a few years. India is likely to be the next low
cost manufacturing nation.
>
> > One last point (a deep one, consider it carefully) - with all this
> > 'multicultural society' BS think how arse-grindingly boring this planet
will
> > become when we *do* have 'coffee-coloured people' everywhere, eating,
> > drinking, playing, listening to, watching, wearing, driving, riding,
> > worshipping, thinking *exactly* the same stuff......
>
> now that is a marketers dream come true! only one ad campaign for the
> whole world! ;)
**Yup. Cars are kinda like that right now.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Wally" <cedar_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nfvff...@uni-berlin.de...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> > **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never
> > told me what was in it. It tasted fine.
>
> http://www.wally.myby.co.uk/haggis/index.htm
**I'm not clicking on that link.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Wally
>>> **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never
>>> told me what was in it. It tasted fine.
>>
>> http://www.wally.myby.co.uk/haggis/index.htm
>
> **I'm not clicking on that link.
Why not?
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Trevor Wilson
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> >>> **I dated a Scotswoman for awhile. Yep, I even ate Haggis. She never
> >>> told me what was in it. It tasted fine.
> >>
> >> http://www.wally.myby.co.uk/haggis/index.htm
> >
> > **I'm not clicking on that link.
>
> Why not?
**There may be information therein, pertaining to the ingredients of haggis.
I don't want to know.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Wally
> **There may be information therein, pertaining to the ingredients of
> haggis.
>
> I don't want to know.
There is only one ingredient in haggis, and that's haggis.
Scurrilous rumours do circulate, presumably for the purpose of discouraging
ill-informed sassenachs and tourists from consuming too much of this
traditional Scottish fare and causing a shortage in supply (and consequent
rise in prices), but my little page seeks to redress that by presenting
evidence of the beasts themselves.
(Hoots, mon, etc.)
--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Keith G
> Keith G wrote:
>
> > "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:2ne1mdF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> >
> > Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname and
> > some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A' and, er,
>
> or Seppos ...
Que?
>
> > 'Canadians' in 'Canada'...??? (Interesting also that no-one objects to
the
>
> Canucks ...
>
> > term 'Jap' - as opposed to 'Japanese'...???) And so it goes on....
>
> Well, I use the term Japs myself, I much prefer it to Nips since I feel
> that Nip == Nippon which was part of their WW2 empire.
...so good at building ships?
;-)
> are you talking about illegal labour, or cheaper labour from poorer
> countries of the EU?
Actually, scrub the Cheap Labour bit - the 'newcomers' that piss me off are
not 'cheap labour' but a bunch of middle-class, stateless nomads who have
been looking for a 'soft touch' country for a few hundred years, were on
their way to Canada (having been chucked out of their former resting place
for 'overdoing' the piss-taking) but many of whom have realised that the
good old UK is probably about as good as it gets. (Free *everything* for
foreigners - paid for by taxing middle-aged women cleaners who work lates
and nights...)
So we (natives) are suddenly expected to suck up the idea of a
'multicultural society' whether we bloody like it or not!
>
> The Oz govt has tightened migration laws here, so most of the new
> migrants are highly skilled (though walking around Sydney, it doesn't
> seem to be the case! Then again, a cabbie could be an out of work
> nuclear physicist!)
Funny you should say that - the taxis here have already been taken over!
> are you refering to ethnic news readers?
Some - and reporters....
> On a side note, I was informed by a person from China that back in the
> early 90s when people were learning English, they would emulate the
> accent and pronounciation of BBC newsreaders. The current generation
> though takes its cues from CNN ...
Oh aye - make Britain 'unbritish' and the world damn soon loses interest -
first consequence of 'multiculturalism'...
> Well, sometimes nicknames are bestowed unfairly. Myself, I have no
> problems with people from other ethnic groups,
Neither do I, believe it or not - my problem is when I see my own ethnicity
being forcibly altered by ludicrous 'PC' legislation and the Guilt Trip that
ordinary Brits are supposed to feel because a few families made huge
fortunes exploiting '3rd World' populations a hundred or so years ago....
> It has always been my stance that all migrants should try their best to
> fit into their new country.
Agreed, but if that country is altered too much to accomodate them it might
well turn into the sort of place they had left behind....
Now, just to set the record straight (presuming you to be from 'Oriental
stock) - I love 'ethnic diversity' and think that different people in
different countries with their different ways (Middle Eastern mutilation
practices notwithstanding) is what the world an interesting place. I'm
particularly into 'Oriental' stuff atm - see my 'Film Of The Year post....
;-)
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2nfu0m...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Keith G wrote:
> >
> > > "Tat Chan" <le_kin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:2ne1mdF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > >
> > > Some nationalities/countries/races (?) lend themselves to a nickname
and
> > > some don't. For example, we have 'Yanks' in the 'US of A' and, er,
> >
> > or Seppos ...
>
> Que?
**Septic tanks = Yanks = Seppos.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au