Airport Marker Beacons
Brian Howie
them to check for auroral and
meteor activity ,but they seem to have disappeared; certainly the ones
around Edinburgh.
Brian GM4DIJ
pk
alot of airports are removing them for one reason or another.
Good King Wenceslas
Brian Howie <brian...@baesystems.com> wrote in message
news:3e084eea$1...@baen1673807.greenlnk.net...
ThePerryDs
parts of the world they do still exist, though most are dying. DME is much
better.
David
Keith
They are disappearing fast.
The last time I came across one in Europe was on finals to Jersey several years
ago, and the latest ILS plate for there doesn't show it any more. I don't know
of any markers in the UK now.
The big one on the main drag east through Belgium (was it Mackel or Dender?)
seems to have gone, too.
There are still some in use in the USA, which seems odd given all the other
navaids they have.
Keith
G3OIT/GW3OIT
J.
Excuse my bewilderment, but what has DME to do with ILS markers?
I think you confuse ILS with VORs and NDBs. Rather dangerous for
a pilot?
--
___________________
Posted by J.
West Bank
Tweeksbury
* Season's Greeting to all our Readers *
Paul
> Excuse my bewilderment, but what has DME to do with ILS markers?
>
> I think you confuse ILS with VORs and NDBs. Rather dangerous for
> a pilot?
>
therefore gives you slant range to touchdown.
With jet airliner approach speeds the Marker system is pretty close to
irrelevant although the Outer & Inner Markers are still in operation for those
who need them..
Paul
Keith
>
> No he doesnt. Most large airports have a DME co-located with the ILS. It
> therefore gives you slant range to touchdown.
> With jet airliner approach speeds the Marker system is pretty close to
> irrelevant although the Outer & Inner Markers are still in operation for those
> who need them..
Even on my little puddle-jumper, I far prefer DME to markers, for a whole load
of reasons. I don't think there are (m)any markers left around the UK - I've
certainly not heard any, or seen flashing blue, amber or white on the panel for
several years.
Keith
G3OIT/GW3OIT
Chris Kirby
news:3e0af7e3...@news.freeserve.net...
> On 24 Dec 2002 21:59:50 GMT, thepe...@aol.com (ThePerryDs) wrote:
>
> >Yes, many arein use but we pilots don't need them now we have DME. In
other
> >parts of the world they do still exist, though most are dying. DME is
much
> >better.
>
> Excuse my bewilderment, but what has DME to do with ILS markers?
>
> I think you confuse ILS with VORs and NDBs. Rather dangerous for
> a pilot?
Not at all! The purpose of a marker beacon is to indicate to the pilot his
distance from the ILS transmitter so that he can confirm (from his height or
altitude on beacon passage) that he has intercepted the correct glidepath
(there being a number of false glidepaths produced by the ILS transmitter).
The correct height/altitude for each beacon passage is printed on the
approach chart. Most marker beacon(s) have now been replaced by a DME,
co-located with the ILS, in which case the correct height/altitude at
specific DME ranges is printed on the chart. The disadvantage of such
'progress' is that aircraft not equipped with serviceable DME equipment
cannot use the ILS unless radar ranging is available. GPS is not yet
approved as an option in UK airspace.
According to the latest UK AIP, there are 10 surviving 75 MHz marker beacons
at civil airfields in the UK. A number still exist at military airfields
(e.g. Benson)but I do not have a current set of TAPs to hand.
Blackpool MM 534612N 0030108W
Cranfield OM 520748N 0003325W
MM 520522N 0003601W
Exeter OM 504508N 0031742W
MM 504420N 0032306W
Prestwick OM 553240N 0044053W
MM 553119N 0043752W
Guernsey MM 492603N 0023757W (R/W 09)
MM 492609N 0023421W (R/W 27)
In addition, Oxford use an old airways 'fan' marker (transmitting 'K' in
morse)
associated with their NDB procedure at 515019N 0012428W
The above should provide sufficient geographical spread for propagation
investigation.
Regards
Chris.
Keith
>
> According to the latest UK AIP, there are 10 surviving 75 MHz marker beacons
> at civil airfields in the UK. A number still exist at military airfields
> (e.g. Benson) but I do not have a current set of TAPs to hand.
>
> Blackpool MM 534612N 0030108W
> Cranfield OM 520748N 0003325W
> MM 520522N 0003601W
> Exeter OM 504508N 0031742W
> MM 504420N 0032306W
> Prestwick OM 553240N 0044053W
> MM 553119N 0043752W
> Guernsey MM 492603N 0023757W (R/W 09)
> MM 492609N 0023421W (R/W 27)
That's interesting, because I landed at all of those except Exeter this year,
and didn't hear any markers. Mind you, it was fine VMC every time so perhaps
they were switched off, or more likely we were on the wrong runways for the markers.
Guernsey's ILS procedures require DME or Radar range, so the markers do seem a
little superfluous. I suspect they won't be there in a couple of years' time.
Keith
Chris Kirby
year,
> and didn't hear any markers. Mind you, it was fine VMC every time so
perhaps
> they were switched off, or more likely we were on the wrong runways for
the markers.
>
> Guernsey's ILS procedures require DME or Radar range, so the markers do
seem a
> little superfluous. I suspect they won't be there in a couple of years'
time.
>
> Keith
>
It is unlikely that the markers themselves were switched off, it is a
condition of the aerodrome licence that they operate continuously during the
published hours. Perhaps, if it was VMC, you mean that you had the
aircraft's marker receiver switched off in accordance with normal
practice(?)
Guernsey's procedures are not available without DME or radar range since
there are no Outer Markers (see my previous comment), the GP check points
being designated as DME ranges. In fact, the use of Outer Markers would be
difficult at Guernsey since both GP check points are over the sea!
The Middle Markers serve as a useful 'heads up' for the MAP, equating to an
on-glidepath height of 240 ft on both 09 and 27 procedures.
ThePerryDs
Well, now you know! ;o))
Thanks all.
david
pk
shhhhhhhh!
dont telll Brian about DME ( or VOR)
he still thinks that aircraft use ADF's
pk
> Excuse my bewilderment, but what has DME to do with ILS markers?
>
> I think you confuse ILS with VORs and NDBs. Rather dangerous for
> a pilot?
DANGER DANGER
TASTE OF SHOE LEATHER
DANGER DANGER
TASTE OF SHOE LEATHER
DANGER DANGER
Keith
>
> It is unlikely that the markers themselves were switched off, it is a
> condition of the aerodrome licence that they operate continuously during the
> published hours. Perhaps, if it was VMC, you mean that you had the
> aircraft's marker receiver switched off in accordance with normal
> practice(?)
It isn't normal practice in our aircraft, since there isn't a switch to do that
(other than the Master or the Avionics Master). The marker receiver is always
switched on. Whether it works or not is a different question... ;-)
> Guernsey's procedures are not available without DME or radar range since
> there are no Outer Markers (see my previous comment), the GP check points
> being designated as DME ranges. In fact, the use of Outer Markers would be
> difficult at Guernsey since both GP check points are over the sea!
There is that...
I don't remember any NOTAM about "MM OUT" - I always carry the IFR plates, just
in case, so would have checked. Perhaps I was busy at the time and missed it!
Keith
Brian Howie
<ch...@aynho.freeserve.co.uk> writes
Thanks Chris,
That's very useful. I think the ones I heard during weak aurora must
have been in the North of Scotland, possibly Shetland. During strong
aurora, 75MHz was just a mush -even drowning out the local ones at
Edinburgh. I was reminded of these by the thread of the guy asking about
beacons for m/s.
There is a photo of the Prestwick OM on my web-site.
http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm
You can clearly see the 75MHz antennas. I think I can just hear it.
Brian GM4DIJ
--
Brian Howie
J.
wrote:
>There is a photo of the Prestwick OM on my web-site.
>http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm
>
>You can clearly see the 75MHz antennas. I think I can just hear it.
Where do they put the outer marker when the approach is over
the sea? In a boat?
Chris Kirby
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:32:14 +0000, Brian Howie <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >There is a photo of the Prestwick OM on my web-site.
> >http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm
> >
> >You can clearly see the 75MHz antennas. I think I can just hear it.
>
> Where do they put the outer marker when the approach is over
> the sea? In a boat?
>
Chris
Brian Howie
<nordl...@hotmail.com> writes
>On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:32:14 +0000, Brian Howie <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>There is a photo of the Prestwick OM on my web-site.
>>http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm
>>
>>You can clearly see the 75MHz antennas. I think I can just hear it.
>
>Where do they put the outer marker when the approach is over
>the sea? In a boat?
That one is the outer marker. It's about 20 yds from the sea. As luck
would have it, it's on a bit of land (in fact a man-made embankment)
that sticks out, otherwise if they were really keen on having one, I
suppose they would have to build some sort of structure.
Brian
--
Brian Howie
J.
Missed posts over Christmas. I thought DME was a rather more
long-distance navaid - associated with VOR.
J.
wrote:
>In message <3e0dcf17...@news.freeserve.net>, J.
><nordl...@hotmail.com> writes
>>On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:32:14 +0000, Brian Howie <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>There is a photo of the Prestwick OM on my web-site.
>>>http://www.b-howie.demon.co.uk/lfbcon.htm
>>>
>>>You can clearly see the 75MHz antennas. I think I can just hear it.
>>
>>Where do they put the outer marker when the approach is over
>>the sea? In a boat?
>
>That one is the outer marker. It's about 20 yds from the sea. As luck
>would have it, it's on a bit of land (in fact a man-made embankment)
>that sticks out, otherwise if they were really keen on having one, I
>suppose they would have to build some sort of structure.
I recall Leuchars had no outer marker at all due to the
approach to one runway being over the sea.
pk
>
> Missed posts over Christmas. I thought DME was a rather more
> long-distance navaid - associated with VOR.
a dme can be associated with any vhf freq.
(and before..some passed-pilot of the 1980's jumps in)
yes that includes all 108-117.95 and 118-136.999
you dont even need to have a valid signal on the selected vhf freq
to get a dme station.
nowadays and going back at least 10 years, ils's have had dme's on them
at least two forms of dme's have existed.. dme and pdme (precision)
Chris Kirby
news:3e0f50a9...@news.eircom.net...
and TACAN is laid down in ICAO Annex 10 and does not cover the whole of the
aeronautical mobile band. In broad terms, the pairing is:
Ch 1-16 - 134.40 - 135.95
Ch 17-59 - 108.00 - 112.25
Ch 60-69 - 133.30 - 134.25
Ch 70-126 - 112.30 - 117.95
X Channels are paired with VHF frequencies xxx.x0
Y Channels are paired with VHF frequencies xxx.x5
e.g. Ch 47X - 111.00 Ch 47Y - 111.05
Walter Ego
Steve Andrew
> Far too many Sky Pilots in this NG!
Come on Gareth - I'm sure if you really tried, you could find some way of
slipping in a few stock comments regarding CB, The RSCB, farce licences,
equipment construction and _REAL_ radio amateurs....;->
Your obviously not making the effort, _REAL_ radio amateurs would find a
way...
Pip pip...
Chris Kirby <>
>Far too many Sky Pilots in this NG!
Far too many Chris Kirby's in this NG!
:-))
pk
> "pk" <epkearn...@rondomondo.eircom.br.ie.ru> wrote in message
> news:3e0f50a9...@news.eircom.net...
> > nordl...@hotmail.com (J.) wrote:
> >
> > >
> To be fair, it's not quite as simple as that. The frequency pairing of DME
[snip]
if you/ye wanted a complicated answer i could have given you one.
the last time i tried to state something official on this newsgroup, a
certain pixel-pilot or two ranted and raved at me even though it was
the UK-CAA i was quoting!
have a nice day :-)
Keith
> (and before..some passed-pilot of the 1980's jumps in)
Yep, pilot's licence from 1982...
> yes that includes all 108-117.95 and 118-136.999
Nope. I've never come across a civilian DME that goes above 117.95. I suspect
some military TACAN ones may, but they'd be linked to the TACAN frequency rather
than the equivalent VOR/ILS one, so won't cover the whole of the "equivalent"
VHF band.
> you dont even need to have a valid signal on the selected vhf freq
> to get a dme station.
Correct. There are terminal DMEs associated with NDBs at several airports that
I visit regularly, for example Gloucester (former Staverton) on 115.55.
> nowadays and going back at least 10 years, ils's have had dme's on them
> at least two forms of dme's have existed.. dme and pdme (precision)
Yes to ILS/DME. I use one very regularly at Southend, and they are becoming
more common all the time. There are also TDMEs, if you would classify them as
a category. Do you know of any PDMEs in the UK?
Keith
G3OIT/GW3OIT/G-UTSY
pk
> > nowadays and going back at least 10 years, ils's have had dme's on them
> > at least two forms of dme's have existed.. dme and pdme (precision)
>
> Yes to ILS/DME. I use one very regularly at Southend, and they are becoming
> more common all the time. There are also TDMEs, if you would classify them as
> a category. Do you know of any PDMEs in the UK?
>
TDME, yes i had lumped them is as DME as against ''new' breed PDME
and when i say 'new' i mean the term is now at least 10 years old
and given the improvements in technology the term may now have been
enveloped by the 'ordinary' DME being as-good-as.
as for knowing of any PDME's around - no is your straight answer
but i THINK (note: think) that the ils/dme may have been the P part
(higher accuracy for landing) but i could be wrong.
my involvment with DME is strictly the airborne-end
pk
> published hours. Perhaps, if it was VMC, you mean that you had the
> aircraft's marker receiver switched off in accordance with normal
> practice(?)
you will find it very hard to find an mkr on-off switch on the
majority of aircraft. from little ones to big ones.
on the majority, the only way of switching a mkr rx off is
1. pull the circuit breaker
2. switch off all the avionics
3. switch off the battery
4. switch off the generators
you can switch the audio from it on/off but theres no switch
for the lights.
what you might find is a sensitivity switch hi/lo but not always.
Keith
> you will find it very hard to find an mkr on-off switch on the
> majority of aircraft. from little ones to big ones.
Don't think I've ever flown anything with a marker on/off switch. Don't even
remember a breaker for the marker receiver (must be one - probably shared with
something else).
> what you might find is a sensitivity switch hi/lo but not always.
Ours has Low/Med/High - really posh, what!
Keith
Chris Kirby
news:3e10f0ec$0$232$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Yes, quite right of course - that's what I get for not reading through
properly before hitting the send button. With the audio switched off it's
quite likely that the MM light would be missed. After all, who's looking
inside at 250ft on a visual approach? Certainly, a failure of the marker
transmitter should have been NOTAMed since the installation is a part of the
airport licence.
Keith
> Yes, quite right of course - that's what I get for not reading through
> properly before hitting the send button. With the audio switched off it's
> quite likely that the MM light would be missed. After all, who's looking
> inside at 250ft on a visual approach? Certainly, a failure of the marker
> transmitter should have been NOTAMed since the installation is a part of the
> airport licence.
I don't think we can even turn off the marker audio on ours (not looked that
hard, I have to say).
The time I notice the middle marker is on an ILS to minima, because that's about
the time the power goes back in and we go around if not visual. Did lots of
that in the USA doing the IR, but never got that low in IMC in the UK, I'm happy
to say.
I do far prefer a DME, because that's a continuous source of information rather
than the spot-check of markers. I did an ILS/no glidepath in anger last year,
and the DME was wonderful. The mental arithmetic was a bit of a stretch,
multiplying by 300 and adding on field elevation (I like to keep the maths
simple) but we landed safely so all was well. I don't think I'd have even
tried it without the DME. "Stopwatch" is all very well, but surface wind at
the airfield may be a lot different from wind at 2000 feet...
But for those looking for a propagation indicator, 75 MHz isn't a good idea.
The 4m beacons might be better - assuming they are still transmitting. I used
to use Emley Moor as my "opening" indicator, and the Scottish ones as the "big
opening". Heard the Gibraltar one a few times, too.
Keith
pk
> pk wrote:
>
> > you will find it very hard to find an mkr on-off switch on the
> > majority of aircraft. from little ones to big ones.
>
> Don't think I've ever flown anything with a marker on/off switch. Don't even
> remember a breaker for the marker receiver (must be one - probably shared with
> something else).
in the more modern rx, the mkr rx will be in the same box
as the vor(ils) / gps (!!) receiver
years ago the box was about 10inches long, about 3 high and 3 wide
AND required tuning !!!
nowadays, its all on a chip on the corner of the main board !
> > what you might find is a sensitivity switch hi/lo but not always.
>
> Ours has Low/Med/High - really posh, what!
oh excuse me. now that is fancy.
but alas means an extra switch to go u/s during your pre-dep checks :-(