Tales from the Job Centre (cont)
MikeinCamden
it's less. Smart premises in the West End. Employer says "Blah blah we could
pay you in cash while you continue to sign on".
Then another gentleman who claims to have worked in tax appears with a typed
out sheet of calculations. I had told them I'd work for a minimum of £8 an hour
a minimum of 16 hours doing Sage. The sheet asks me to work for £5.60 an hour
and they will pay for a travel card. It says I will 'only' lose £11 a week (out
of less than the minimum wage a week) but it will save them twenty quid. Total
time wasters with no intention probably of paying any wages at all.
It's high time the farcical government 'employment service' was shut down and
replaced by a properly run state employment agency. If anyone can find a
genuine job in a Job Centre they deserve an award from The Queen. Nearly every
job ad is bogus in some manner or other. The staff in these Job Centre places
all know. The whole thing is a sham.
David Platt
MikeinCamden wrote:
> Went to 'interview' for accounts job. Ad says twenty hours but told on phone
> it's less. Smart premises in the West End. Employer says "Blah blah we could
> pay you in cash while you continue to sign on".
You should have had a tape recorder in your pocket. You could have used
that to get at least 15 an hour after a statement like that.
BigCheese
"MikeinCamden" <mikein...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041214113322...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> It's high time the farcical government 'employment service' was shut down
and
> replaced by a properly run state employment agency. If anyone can find a
> genuine job in a Job Centre they deserve an award from The Queen. Nearly
every
> job ad is bogus in some manner or other. The staff in these Job Centre
places
> all know. The whole thing is a sham.
The trouble is Mike, you have to go don't you, or they stop your benefit? :)
MikeinCamden
No. I don't get any benefit apart from my stamp paid. And they never send me to
any jobs. I apply for jobs advertised and go to interviews if asked by the
employers. So your suggestion that I am going through the motions to get dole
money is entirely untrue.
I am actually looking for a job unlike some. That is the a mistake one can make
using Job Centres which are largely charades.
Son of Moog
Mike you must be a masochist to put up with the Job Centre nonsense the
plain
fact of the matter is this: If your over 45 and in the job market it will be
literally
imposible to get the kind of salary you are looking for. Between 2002 and
2003
I sent out nearly 400 CVs and got fuck all in replies despite 20 years in
IT.
tryed the Job Centre and got the same bollocks your experiencing
£ 6-8 per hour for web design and IT "specialists".
Used to earn £26-39ph
<sigh>
S.o.M
David Platt
Take your older positions off your CV, keep a dictaphone in your pocket,
if you ever catch them telling you 'sorry mate your too old', sue!
MikeinCamden
£8 an hour for Sage etc?
MikeinCamden
get anyone. You see them advertising again. They are chancers trying it on.
Stephen Glynn
> Firms that try to get people to do accounts for a fiver an hour simply don't
> get anyone. You see them advertising again. They are chancers trying it on.
Can't you find anything through the real employment agencies? They
must have temporary work for experienced accountants.
Steve
pencil
> Went to 'interview' for accounts job. Ad says twenty hours but told
> on phone
> it's less. Smart premises in the West End. Employer says "Blah blah
> we could
> pay you in cash while you continue to sign on".
>
> Then another gentleman who claims to have worked in tax appears with
> a typed
> out sheet of calculations. I had told them I'd work for a minimum of
> £8 an hour
> a minimum of 16 hours doing Sage. The sheet asks me to work for
Mike, isn't it about time you left that dump called London. Sell up,
move north, buy yourself a house for a fraction of the price you pay
for a garage daan saaf, and live happily ever after - or at least
until the ethnics follow you.
MikeinCamden
move north, buy yourself a house for a fraction of the price you pay
for a garage daan saaf, and live happily ever after - or at least
until the ethnics follow you.>
Many thanks to you and Steve for your supportive and kind comments which are
much appreciated. You certainly don't get any from Labour if you are
unemployed! But I'm a mule and don't see why the political shenanigans imposed
by Labour should force me out. I may as Steve suggested try the private
agencies again but I don't think there is much chance. Ageism is so entrenched.
I think my recent idea of a placard in the street is the next one to go for.
The 'employer' I saw this morning was a Job Centre classic. He thinks he can
get someone for near nothing and even get them to commit dole fraud if they
come from a Job Centre. Just tells you something about the lamentable nature of
the Government's dinosaur 'employment service'. David Willetts has had some
caustic things to say about it in the press recently.
Frank Booth Snr
> imposible to get the kind of salary you are looking for.>
>
> £8 an hour for Sage etc?
But Sage is a bookkeeping program. And there are lot's of part-time female
bookkeepers around who will happily work for £5 - £6 an hour on Sage. I know
a Polish lady who told me that when she came to the UK, about 18 months ago,
she knew nothing about bookkeeping. She first worked part-time in a care
home for the elderly. Whilst doing this she went on one of these AAT
bookkeeping certificate courses for about 6 months for free. After passing
her certificate, she applied for 5 bookkeeping positions paying about £5/ hr
and was offered all of them. She settled for the nearest one to her home and
did that for 9 months, then applied elsewhere for a credit controller's job,
and landed herself a full time position for £20,000 pa, on her first
attempt. She lied on her CV about her experience, claiming she had worked as
a bookkeeper for 5 years in Poland. Of course her employers never checked
this out.
BigCheese
"Frank Booth Snr" <old...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:329dpqF...@individual.net...
And now she's got Mike's job!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BigCheese
B&Q are always hiring old gits. Give 'em a try ;)
j...@somewhere.com
>> a bookkeeper for 5 years in Poland. Of course her employers never checked
>> this out.
>
>
>And now she's got Mike's job!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, she has her job.
Your lazy buddy mike doesn't want to work.
JRP
Maria
wrote:
>Firms that try to get people to do accounts for a fiver an hour simply don't
>get anyone. You see them advertising again. They are chancers trying it on.
For what it's worth, if I could afford to employ someone, I would pay
you £8/hour for doing my accounts!
I think £8/hour would be worth it for the headache it's causing me...
MikeinCamden
a Polish lady who told me that when she came to the UK, about 18 months ago,
she knew nothing about bookkeeping. She first worked part-time in a care
home for the elderly. Whilst doing this she went on one of these AAT
bookkeeping certificate courses for about 6 months for free. After passing
her certificate, she applied for 5 bookkeeping positions paying about £5/ hr
and was offered all of them.>
I think you've put your finger on it. Immigrants working at ludicrous wages.
Actually my observation is that firms generally don't get people for a five an
hour. They try but can't get anyone competent or they keep leaving.
There is also a big difference between simply doing data entry on Sage and
coping with the whole thing including VAT and management a/cs. And that is what
the firm I went to wanted for cash in hand while signing on.
Leighton Jones
Hey Mike:
If your living in London, you could sell up move to Wales, buy a house and
never need to work again?
Cheers Lj.
Stephen Glynn
Mike, I don't know if your resources stretch to this, but I remember
years ago some enterprising young graduate placed an advert in The Times
offering a 'golden hello' to anyone who'd give him a job in his chosen
field. This, as he doubtless planned, gained him loads of publicity
which he used to explain that, since he was having to live off his
savings while he looked for work and his savings were rapidly running
out, he thought this would be a good investment of what money he had
left since he'd soon get it back from a regular salary.
Sure enough, he was inundated with perfectly serious interview offers
from people who didn't want the money but were impressed at his
enterprise, cheek and problem-solving abilities.
Worth a thought? You wouldn't be committing yourself to taking any of
the jobs so you wouldn't be risking your money and it would at least
give you the opportunity to make your complaints more widely known.
Steve
MikeinCamden
the jobs so you wouldn't be risking your money and it would at least
give you the opportunity to make your complaints more widely known.>
I think I can achieve the same effect by a placard in the street.
MikeinCamden
Labour is now trying to partly dodge the age directive.
I've never come across anything like what you get in Job Centres. Nearly every
job is bogus or dodgy.
Smack
appopraite qualification in electrical installation. There's a lot of
jobs locally for technicians and electronic engineering. Try looking in
the Cambridge area..
However, the days of earning big money from IT are gone. Unfortuantely
you managed to price yourself out of the market. There is now very
little programming of any worth going on in the country.
have you though of teaching in an FE college....usually find part time
contracts. They are desperate for people who can teach basic skills.
MikeinCamden
Job TitleACCOUNTS ASSISTANT KLB/14539 LocationKILBURN PARK ROAD, LONDON Hours40
HOURS PER WEEK, MONDAY-FRIDAY, BETWEEN 9AM-5PM Wage£4.85 PER HOUR
EmployerLondon Accountancy
DurationPERMANENT
Description
Must have at least 1 years experience and be ether AAT qualified or part
qualified. Duties will include running the payroll, bookkeeping, VAT and using
Sage Line 50 software. Fax CVs FAO Mr Djubali to 020 7644 0670
How to applyYou can apply for this job by telephoning 0207 6440470 and asking
for David.
Derek *
On 17 Dec 2004 06:51:15 -0800, "Smack" <smeg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You don't need any 'scam quals' to wire sockets Dave.
You don't need any at all.
But in the New Year (if done for reward) your work will have to be
signed off by a member of the "Worshipful Company Of Wirepullers" or
somesuch. Who charge a hefty annual membership fee and insist on making
site visits and assesments, also chargeable. So the 1 man local
electrician 55 years old 38 years in the trade will become a thing of
the past. Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
Basingstoke.
There's a lot of money in it.
It happened in the gas industry a long time ago. My combi boiler finally
died whilst I was away on business last December. My wife was without
heat or hot water. A replacement boiler was £1,110 on the internet. But
to get one fitted by a Corgi registered outfit was £2,500 inclusive of
VAT. It amounted to 5 hours work to fix the boiler on the wall and pipe
it up to the existing pipes/services for 1 CORGI bloke and a 17 year old
Oik.
>You need an appopraite qualification in electrical installation.
And come next year they're doing the same thing to glass/glaziering.
Jolly good thing too, we don't want our windows fitted by just any old
Tom, Dick, or Harriet, who hasn't got an appropriate qualification in
installing double glazed units. We can't have that now can we? We are
responsible people.
>There's a lot of jobs locally for technicians and electronic engineering.
>Try looking in the Cambridge area..
>
>However, the days of earning big money from IT are gone. Unfortuantely
>you managed to price yourself out of the market. There is now very
>little programming of any worth going on in the country.
>
I don't know whether I would necessarily agree with any of those points.
What I'd say was that the IT business whilst being speculative in
itself, largely dependended for it's work on other speculative bubbles.
Not what you'd call a mature stable industry.
I observed very early on that it was much easier to sink money in "The
Internet" than it was to create it.
>have you though of teaching in an FE college....usually find part time
>contracts. They are desperate for people who can teach basic skills.
Another avenue that has been rendered unnattractive by the constant
appraisals/assessments/reports by OFSTED et Al. One college in East
Anglia got a poor Ofsted report, so the management decided the teaching
staff needed more practice in being assessed, so hired an external
assessment body to do three assessments per year *as well as* the
official Ofsted assessment. So staff were constantly in the midst of
assessment. My sister taught Law at a College in East Anglia. She got so
pigged off by it that she simply didn't show up for the Autumn term last
year. So hasn't had a salary for 15 months.
DG
j...@somewhere.com
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On 17 Dec 2004 06:51:15 -0800, "Smack" <smeg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>You don't need any 'scam quals' to wire sockets Dave.
>
>You don't need any at all.
>
>But in the New Year (if done for reward) your work will have to be
>signed off by a member of the "Worshipful Company Of Wirepullers" or
>somesuch. Who charge a hefty annual membership fee and insist on making
>site visits and assesments, also chargeable. So the 1 man local
>electrician 55 years old 38 years in the trade will become a thing of
>the past. Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>Basingstoke.
>
>There's a lot of money in it.
And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
your house and you need the connection to the mains.
Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
hall?
JRP
MikeinCamden
Jolly good thing too, we don't want our windows fitted by just any old
Tom, Dick, or Harriet, who hasn't got an appropriate qualification in
installing double glazed units. >
Did not know this bit. Any reference? Or are you referring to the L regulations
which came in a couple of year's ago.
The price you paid for replacing your combi is appalling. £1500 quid for a
day's work for two men. Did you get other quotes?
MikeinCamden
hall?>
So we create a nation of dodgers. Is this really sensible?
MikeinCamden
for ever but want to put off allowing older folk to get jobs for as long as
possible. Wait for a court case which will years and years. Age Concern is
muttering about a legal challenge already.
Derek *
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:41:19 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
> Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>Basingstoke.
>>
>>There's a lot of money in it.
>
>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>
Until you try to sell the house and the solicitors ask for an electrical
test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
certificate (That one's already happened to my son).
>Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
>hall?
AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
We don't want to live like this FFS.
DG
j...@somewhere.com
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:41:19 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>
>> Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>>Basingstoke.
>>>
>>>There's a lot of money in it.
>>
>>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>>
>
>Until you try to sell the house and the solicitors ask for an electrical
>test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
>certificate (That one's already happened to my son).
As I said, you need a sign-off for the hooking up of the wiring -
sorry but this makes sense to me, it is easy to be saddled with a
house that some cowboy has re-wired. Wiring is not something the
mortgage lender will look into remember and while a signature that the
wiring into the leccy source is a good idea it in no way suggests the
wiring in the rest of the house at a satisfactory level.
>>Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
>>hall?
>
>AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
>designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
>replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
>she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
>We don't want to live like this FFS.
They say you cant, but FFS since when did we all live our lives to the
letter of the law?
JRP
MikeinCamden
>test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
>certificate (That one's already happened to my son). >
These things only apply to work carried out after the regulations were
introduced. In the case of windows that's only since 2002. Obviously you cannot
supply a certificate for windows put in during Victorian times. Or for houses
rewired in the 1960s when most old houses in Britain were rewired.
Of course an inspection can be carried out of work carried out before there
were regulations but that is a different matter and amounts to a survey.
Gas regulations were introduced in the 80s so most say gas boilers will have
been installed since then and a certificate can be asked for. What was the
result in the end for your son?
Alan G
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On 17 Dec 2004 06:51:15 -0800, "Smack" <smeg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>You don't need any 'scam quals' to wire sockets Dave.
>
>You don't need any at all.
>
>But in the New Year (if done for reward) your work will have to be
>signed off by a member of the "Worshipful Company Of Wirepullers" or
>somesuch. Who charge a hefty annual membership fee and insist on making
>site visits and assesments, also chargeable. So the 1 man local
>electrician 55 years old 38 years in the trade will become a thing of
>the past. Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>Basingstoke.
>
>There's a lot of money in it.
Indeed.
I used to do it back in the 60/70s. Electrical work that is. It's
mostly common sense and the ability to interpret the regulations.
Forcing people into a mafia is just a money making protection
racketeering scam.
>
>It happened in the gas industry a long time ago. My combi boiler finally
>died whilst I was away on business last December. My wife was without
>heat or hot water. A replacement boiler was £1,110 on the internet. But
>to get one fitted by a Corgi registered outfit was £2,500 inclusive of
>VAT. It amounted to 5 hours work to fix the boiler on the wall and pipe
>it up to the existing pipes/services for 1 CORGI bloke and a 17 year old
>Oik.
Mine went last week. Had to wait a week for a fitter. It is going to
cost us around a hundred quid for the replacement thermostat when the
bill comes in. A replacement combi would cost around £1200 fitted so
it looks like you were quoted by Ripoff and Run Ltd,
>
>>You need an appopraite qualification in electrical installation.
>
>And come next year they're doing the same thing to glass/glaziering.
Already in place from 2002
>
>Jolly good thing too, we don't want our windows fitted by just any old
>Tom, Dick, or Harriet, who hasn't got an appropriate qualification in
>installing double glazed units. We can't have that now can we? We are
>responsible people.
>
>>There's a lot of jobs locally for technicians and electronic engineering.
>>Try looking in the Cambridge area..
>>
>>However, the days of earning big money from IT are gone. Unfortuantely
>>you managed to price yourself out of the market. There is now very
>>little programming of any worth going on in the country.
>>
>
>I don't know whether I would necessarily agree with any of those points.
>What I'd say was that the IT business whilst being speculative in
>itself, largely dependended for it's work on other speculative bubbles.
>Not what you'd call a mature stable industry.
I worked in the SCADA field for over 20 years. When the manufacturing
sector went titsup I went into IT. Dropped my income by about 60%.
Recently had an IT graduate straight out of uni working with me for
experience. The only work available to him was for less than £12k.
>
>I observed very early on that it was much easier to sink money in "The
>Internet" than it was to create it.
>
>>have you though of teaching in an FE college....usually find part time
>>contracts. They are desperate for people who can teach basic skills.
>
>Another avenue that has been rendered unnattractive by the constant
>appraisals/assessments/reports by OFSTED et Al. One college in East
>Anglia got a poor Ofsted report, so the management decided the teaching
>staff needed more practice in being assessed, so hired an external
>assessment body to do three assessments per year *as well as* the
>official Ofsted assessment. So staff were constantly in the midst of
>assessment. My sister taught Law at a College in East Anglia. She got so
>pigged off by it that she simply didn't show up for the Autumn term last
>year. So hasn't had a salary for 15 months.
>
You need a teaching qualification of some kind before you get near a
class. The days of just passing on your skills are long gone.
Alan G
The government seems to be edging towards a certificate for houses
which you'll need before you can sell.
Derek *
On 17 Dec 2004 20:22:24 GMT, mikein...@aol.com (MikeinCamden) wrote:
>And come next year they're doing the same thing to glass/glaziering.
>
>Jolly good thing too, we don't want our windows fitted by just any old
>Tom, Dick, or Harriet, who hasn't got an appropriate qualification in
>installing double glazed units. >
>
>Did not know this bit. Any reference? Or are you referring to the L regulations
>which came in a couple of year's ago.
Yes it came from the office of the deputy Prime Minister, and indeed it
has been in force a couple of years now
I'm gettin' old, I forget you know...
There has been much discussion in uk.diy, and uk.legal extracts follow:
********************extract follows************************
Basically yes, replacement of windows is now a controlled operation.
Repair of existing windows is not affected, and there are exemptions
for historic buildings. There is a self certification scheme for window
installers, FENSA. The following links my help
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20020440.htm
http://www.safety.dtlr.gov.uk/bregs/brpub/letters/130302.htm
http://www.newham.gov.uk/Press/2002/March/Building.htm
http://www.fensa.biz/
http://www.part-l.info/what_is_fensa.htm
>
>The price you paid for replacing your combi is appalling. £1500 quid for a
>day's work for two men.
Hey, that's a "Leeds" price, you'd pay £1k more in the smoke. Remember
it includes VAT. Which is what, IMHO is what this is all about. The
killing off of all the VAT unregistered tradesmen. A cite from postings
of my own on this topic.
However from way back it has always been so, the era of buying a boiler
cheap is fairly recent. It seemed to change with the advent of "Great
Clowes St Trade Warehouse" a Manchester outfit who would sell to
anybody. Don't forget in the '60's plumbers and electricians supplies
werent available to 'Oi Polloi, you had to "Know somebody" to get
"Yorkshire Fittings". ;-)
*****************extract follows**************************
People don't realise the full impact of all this taxation. I will
illustrate.
I am a qualified electrician, Dave over the back is a professional
painter and decorator.
Now, Dave could do his own house wiring, but he's not qualified and
he'd probably make a mess of it. But anyway, if he did he wouldn't pay
any tax on it, alternatively he could call me in cos I'm qualified and
of every £100 he gives to me 14.9% goes to the VAT man. If I draw all
the rest as salary I pay 11% NI, my ltd company pays 11% NI I pay
income tax at 40%. excise duties on motor fuels etc round it up to at
least 80%.
Similarly, I could do my own decorating, but I would probably make a
mess of it so I get Dave in.The effect of the taxation is that I have
to pay £100 out of what I earn (pre tax) just to get £20 worth of
decorating done. Note that to get £20.00 of decorating done I have to
pay Dave £100 and to get that £100 I have to bill out to my customers
£500. The difference all goes to the Chancellor.
You really don't want to consider the calculation if Dave spends his 20
quid on motor fuel and only gets £4.00 worth of unleaded (+tax).
In fact I could build my own house. We all could. But if we all did,
to put itself in the same position as when people paid builders to
build houses and paid lots of *tax* the government would have to pass
a law to the effect that anybody who builds their own house, must
build four other houses and give them to the government as "housing
tax". The government would then give them to single parent slappers, the
seperated wives of muslim terrorists with their 8 kids, and "very highly
skilled" immigrants.
>Did you get other quotes?
I was away, wife was on her own. It was a national company, all the
local Yellow pages plumbers just had answerphones that said "I'm away on
a cruise, I'll be back a week next Sunday"
***********************
OH BTW don't even think about it, all the CORGI courses are booked up
for 2+ years ahead at the local colleges of FE.
***********************
GB, together with Prescott, along with "The Ancient Order of Wire
Pullers", "The Confederation of Registered Gas Installers", and the
"Good and Glorious, Glass and Glazing Gazing, and Glasiering
Federation. are reducing our both our Fiscal (Such as my freedom to
repair an OAP's light switch free of charge) freedoms and our simple
right to do what we want with our own properties.
What if the National Federation of Fish Friers approached Prescott
along the lines that we shouldn't be allowed to fry our own fish and
chips, (Instances of scalding with boiling fat must outnumber
electrocutions caused by the fixed wiring installation hundreds, maybe
thousands fold). I personally know of more than one instance where a
forgotten chip pan has caught fire and caused a house fire with fatal
consequences.
DG
MikeinCamden
where I went for a job and it was suggested that I work on the accounts for
cash while signing on.
Now this would never have happened some years ago. The dodging is moving
upmarket from the back street garage.
The reason is that the more regulation you get the more people fiddle. And the
increasing torrent of regulations about building will have the same effect.
Alan G
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:41:19 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>
>> Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>>Basingstoke.
>>>
>>>There's a lot of money in it.
>>
>>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>>
>
>Until you try to sell the house and the solicitors ask for an electrical
>test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
>certificate (That one's already happened to my son).
It isn't compulsory yet so tell them you don't have one
>
>>Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
>>hall?
>
>AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
>designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
>replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
>she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
Like the man said. Who 'se going to know?
>
>We don't want to live like this FFS.
>
Indeed.
Put Prescott's head on a spike on the Tower as a warning to others
MikeinCamden
which you'll need before you can sell. >
Then only new houses built from ticcy taccy will comply.
MikeinCamden
the rip off price I would have to pay for CORGI - plus annual maintenance.
Seemed to me at the time the same would increasingly apply to cars. A giant
system to extract more and more money from you. So I gave up having one and now
look sadly at all the people paying out on endless parking fines. When I were a
lad you could park anywhere.
The basics of modern life are being made impossible except for the better off
and by degrees. £2500 to replace a boiler? How could a poor person afford that?
Derek *
On 17 Dec 2004 22:21:38 GMT, mikein...@aol.com (MikeinCamden) wrote:
>I started this thread with a story about really smart premises in the West End
>where I went for a job and it was suggested that I work on the accounts for
>cash while signing on.
>
>Now this would never have happened some years ago. The dodging is moving
>upmarket from the back street garage.
>
>The reason is that the more regulation you get the more people fiddle.
<To achieve the same result, yes>
I call it the "Tide going out beneath your feet" scenario.
> And the
>increasing torrent of regulations about building will have the same effect.
It's cos the actuality is that if you pay all the tax, as I set out, if
you are registered for VAT and paying higher rate tax you have to bill
out £500 to pay a tradesman's bill of £100 of which he gets to keep £20!
The general public who only think in terms of "Take home pay" are not
aware of how pernicious the tax charge is.
Prescot(t) is trying to keep a lid on it by doubling and redoubling the
regulation of small jobbing tradesmen, rather like that "Mole Banging"
game you see on fairgrounds.
DG
j...@somewhere.com
wrote:
>>>But in the New Year (if done for reward) your work will have to be
>>>signed off by a member of the "Worshipful Company Of Wirepullers" or
>>>somesuch. Who charge a hefty annual membership fee and insist on making
>>>site visits and assesments, also chargeable. So the 1 man local
>>>electrician 55 years old 38 years in the trade will become a thing of
>>>the past. Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>>Basingstoke.
>>>
>>>There's a lot of money in it.
>>
>>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>>
>>Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
>>hall?
>>
>
>The government seems to be edging towards a certificate for houses
>which you'll need before you can sell.
It already exists to a certain extent, you need a completion
certificate for any additional work done to a house.
JRP
Alan G
wrote:
>I thought of having central heating ten years ago but I gave up when I realised
>the rip off price I would have to pay for CORGI - plus annual maintenance.
Why/
I've never paid for annual maintainance.
I only pay for repairs because I can't see well enough to do them
myself.
>Seemed to me at the time the same would increasingly apply to cars. A giant
>system to extract more and more money from you. So I gave up having one and now
>look sadly at all the people paying out on endless parking fines. When I were a
>lad you could park anywhere.
>
>The basics of modern life are being made impossible except for the better off
>and by degrees. £2500 to replace a boiler? How could a poor person afford that?
£2500 seems a ripoff when I've just been quoted £1200 for one.
MikeinCamden
I've never paid for annual maintainance. >
As I understand it the gas regulations require annual servicing.
Derek *
On 17 Dec 2004 22:39:01 GMT, mikein...@aol.com (MikeinCamden) wrote:
>I thought of having central heating ten years ago but I gave up when I realised
>the rip off price I would have to pay for CORGI - plus annual maintenance.
Ten years ago I wouldn't have though twice about doing it (annual
maintenance) myself. On a modern balanced flue boiler there's almost
nothing to do if it was installed right to begin with..
>Seemed to me at the time the same would increasingly apply to cars. A giant
>system to extract more and more money from you. So I gave up having one and now
>look sadly at all the people paying out on endless parking fines. When I were a
>lad you could park anywhere.
>
>The basics of modern life are being made impossible except for the better off
>and by degrees. £2500 to replace a boiler? How could a poor person afford that?
Yes, or FTM a retired one. What if your roof needs replacement?
Modern housing is slowly but surely becoming composed of disposable sub
sections. You are lucky to get 10 years out of a modern Kitchen. My
house has pipes buried in plaster and pipes under a solid hardwood
floor. If they are deteriorating with the constant heating/cooling
cycles in gritty abrasive environment then when it comes it won't just
be a one off repair, it'll be a refit involving new floors and pipes and
a big re-decoration job (For dave ! ).
None of the heating service contracts cover pipes buried in the
structure of the building.
It has concerned me of late that kids buying houses on 25 year mortgages
which have heating systems that last 8-10 years, and woodwork that lasts
for 15 (and all the rest stc etc) are building up for themselves and the
country big problems in the future. A limited company would have to make
provision for eventual renewal of it's heating plant if it had a limited
life and had been bought out of borrowed money. That this problem hasn't
appeared to date is only because of the obscene bloat in housing prices
which makes re-financing to pay current repair bills easy.
DG
Derek *
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:05:56 +0000, Alan G <m...@invalid.privacy.net>
wrote:
>On 17 Dec 2004 22:39:01 GMT, mikein...@aol.com (MikeinCamden)
Not a Ravenheat combi is it?
It was a big boiler. The biggest Bosch -Worcester "Greenstar". I'm happy
that the price of the boiler on the net was over £1,100 (probably plus
VAT). Their price included VAT. So GB got £375 of it.
It was dear, and probably exploitative, November-No Heating- No Hot
Water & all that. But the eventual installation was Corgoi compliant.
And I have a certificate to prove it. Fx <waves it about>
DG
j...@somewhere.com
wrote:
>Why/
>I've never paid for annual maintainance. >
>
>As I understand it the gas regulations require annual servicing.
Wrong as usual.
JRP
MikeinCamden
Wrong as usual.>
OK but basic servicing requires a CORGI rip off artist to comply.
MikeinCamden
maintenance) myself. On a modern balanced flue boiler there's almost
nothing to do if it was installed right to begin with..>
But it's illegal to service it yourself (unless CORGI)!
MikeinCamden
you are required to get a certificated person to do it.
Not many know that I expect.
Tap washers next.
j...@somewhere.com
wrote:
>>As I understand it the gas regulations require annual servicing.
>
>Wrong as usual.>
>
>OK but basic servicing requires a CORGI rip off artist to comply.
Why? You are not forced to service your boiler.
JRP
Derek *
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:14:15 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:55:37 +0000, Derek *
><De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:41:19 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>>
>>> Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>>>Basingstoke.
>>>>
>>>>There's a lot of money in it.
>>>
>>>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>>>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>>>
>>
>>Until you try to sell the house and the solicitors ask for an electrical
>>test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
>>certificate (That one's already happened to my son).
>
>As I said, you need a sign-off for the hooking up of the wiring -
You always did. If you are referring to the supply company connecting
you to the supply. They could refuse to connect to an "Unsafe
installation". However AFAIAA the supply is nowadays no longer
disconnected between new/old occupiers.
>sorry but this makes sense to me, it is easy to be saddled with a
>house that some cowboy has re-wired. Wiring is not something the
>mortgage lender will look into remember
No.The buyer's solicitor will start wringing his hands, and at that
stage delays can cost big money (If F.I. you lose a sale and have to
drop your price).
> and while a signature that the
>wiring into the leccy source is a good idea it in no way suggests the
>wiring in the rest of the house at a satisfactory level.
>
Hence they are now requiring a full examination, and presumably defects
to be rectified. By co-incidence the colour of fixed house wiring has
been changed this year so the investigating wire puller can tell from
the colour of the wiring whether an addition was done before or after
the inception of the regulations.
>>>Do you seriously think anybody will notice you moving a socket in the
>>>hall?
>>
>>AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
>>designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
>>replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
>>she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
>>We don't want to live like this FFS.
>
>They say you cant, but FFS since when did we all live our lives to the
>letter of the law?
>
I just don't want some snotty nosed inspector coming round the house
with an instrument that measures the loop impedance of all my ring mains
and telling me it's out of spec and he'll ahve to start investigating by
openeing evey socket in the house till he finds the defective one. Or
condemning a ring main altogether because it was done by an amateur 20
years ago and the cables are routed round the wall and not straight in
the proscribed fashion .up from the socket to the ceiling and through
the roof void so the extension will ahve to be completely re-wired and
re-decorated
Just for instance... You understand...
DG
MikeinCamden
WHHAAT! Don't you know the risks of unserviced gas appliances.
Derek *
On 17 Dec 2004 21:24:35 GMT, mikein...@aol.com (MikeinCamden) wrote:
>
>These things only apply to work carried out after the regulations were
>introduced. In the case of windows that's only since 2002. Obviously you cannot
>supply a certificate for windows put in during Victorian times. Or for houses
>rewired in the 1960s when most old houses in Britain were rewired.
But the "Null Hypothesis" is not an acceptable solution.
I can see people being forced into getting a certificate of compliance
even for Victorian houses. Probably from local councils who will have
people going round and checking (on request, and for a standard charge)
that, for instance, the glass in recent windows and doors has the proper
kitemark. It appears BTW that only either *Triple Glazing* or
"Kappafloat" coated double glazing will meet the requiremants.
>Of course an inspection can be carried out of work carried out before there
>were regulations but that is a different matter and amounts to a survey.
>
>Gas regulations were introduced in the 80s so most say gas boilers will have
>been installed since then and a certificate can be asked for. What was the
>result in the end for your son?
His house was 6 year old Barrat house. The Corgi guy found no problems.
Somebody had to take a day off work and there was a bill for 150 quid
involved.
DG
j...@somewhere.com
wrote:
>Why? You are not forced to service your boiler.>
>
>WHHAAT! Don't you know the risks of unserviced gas appliances.
Yes, but nobody forces you to service it.
You are aware of the story of Chicken Licken?
JRP
j...@somewhere.com
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Customers will be driven towards dealing with national
>>>>>organisations who employ 17 year old youfs to do the wiring but the
>>>>>assesment/accreditation is done nationally by Mr Fuff in an office in
>>>>>Basingstoke.
>>>>>
>>>>>There's a lot of money in it.
>>>>
>>>>And the only time you will need the signature is if you are rewiring
>>>>your house and you need the connection to the mains.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Until you try to sell the house and the solicitors ask for an electrical
>>>test certificate, together with your glazing certificate and Corgi
>>>certificate (That one's already happened to my son).
>>
>>As I said, you need a sign-off for the hooking up of the wiring -
>
>You always did. If you are referring to the supply company connecting
>you to the supply. They could refuse to connect to an "Unsafe
>installation". However AFAIAA the supply is nowadays no longer
>disconnected between new/old occupiers.
Indeed, but I was referring to a re-wiring job.
>>sorry but this makes sense to me, it is easy to be saddled with a
>>house that some cowboy has re-wired. Wiring is not something the
>>mortgage lender will look into remember
>
>No.The buyer's solicitor will start wringing his hands, and at that
>stage delays can cost big money (If F.I. you lose a sale and have to
>drop your price).
And how will the buyers solicitor know anything about it, unless you
get an expensive survey done.
>> and while a signature that the
>>wiring into the leccy source is a good idea it in no way suggests the
>>wiring in the rest of the house at a satisfactory level.
>>
>
>Hence they are now requiring a full examination,
At what stage?
>and presumably defects
>to be rectified. By co-incidence the colour of fixed house wiring has
>been changed this year so the investigating wire puller can tell from
>the colour of the wiring whether an addition was done before or after
>the inception of the regulations.
Surely the legislation is not retrospective?
>>>AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
>>>designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
>>>replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
>>>she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
>>>We don't want to live like this FFS.
>>
>>They say you cant, but FFS since when did we all live our lives to the
>>letter of the law?
>>
>
>I just don't want some snotty nosed inspector coming round the house
>with an instrument that measures the loop impedance of all my ring mains
>and telling me it's out of spec and he'll ahve to start investigating by
>openeing evey socket in the house till he finds the defective one.
And why would some snotty nosed inspector be doing this and while we
are at it, what LA will have the resources to do this?
>Or
>condemning a ring main altogether because it was done by an amateur 20
>years ago and the cables are routed round the wall and not straight in
>the proscribed fashion .up from the socket to the ceiling and through
>the roof void so the extension will ahve to be completely re-wired and
>re-decorated
>
>Just for instance... You understand...
I do, but I think you should go for a pint and ignore it.
JRP
MikeinCamden
with an instrument that measures the loop impedance of all my ring mains
and telling me it's out of spec and he'll ahve to start investigating by
openeing evey socket in the house till he finds the defective one. Or
condemning a ring main altogether because it was done by an amateur 20
years ago and the cables are routed round the wall and not straight in
the proscribed fashion .up from the socket to the ceiling and through
the roof void so the extension will ahve to be completely re-wired and
re-decorated >
As I understand it new regulations apply to new jobs. Otherwise every building
in the country would have to be rewired every couple of years. In fact every
building would have to be rebuilt! That is a separate matter from a small fault
which would be a fault at any time like say loose connections in a plug.
Of course a mortgage lender might require redoing to the latest regulations but
that is nothing to do with the regulations being compulsory in general.
Then there is the buyer's problem. Does he cancel his carefully-arranged buy
because someone says something is not quite right. You can find fault with any
building if you want to. Even one built a couple of years ago will not comply
in some way with the latest regulations.
If mortgage lenders go too far they will restrict their number of sales and
they are sales volume mad.
MikeinCamden
Rings a bell but I don't have your literary qualifications.
MikeinCamden
even for Victorian houses. Probably from local councils who will have
people going round and checking (on request, and for a standard charge)
that, for instance, the glass in recent windows and doors has the proper
kitemark. It appears BTW that only either *Triple Glazing* or
"Kappafloat" coated double glazing will meet the requiremants.>
Quite possible but it will be difficult to date windows.
MikeinCamden
Somebody had to take a day off work and there was a bill for 150 quid
involved.>
So presumably he was given no certificate when he purchased his stoutly built
dry-lined home.
j...@somewhere.com
wrote:
>You are aware of the story of Chicken Licken?>
>
>Rings a bell but I don't have your literary qualifications.
http://www.ongoing-tales.com/SERIALS/oldtime/FAIRYTALES/chicklicken.html
JRP
Derek *
Nah, you can pull your own plonker, providing you are "Competant".
Competant is not defined.
But since at work I install and service Lab systems which use piped
oxygen, hydrogen and radioactive CO2 I feel confident enough.
The real danger with gas appliances arises from (mostly very old) open
flue apliances which are not properly flued or not properly ventilated.
Recent appliances are fan assisted, balance flued and operate at
negative pressure so combustion products don't escape even in the event
of a leak. All the pressures are measured and interlocked so the boiler
just won't run if someting's wrong (say the fan flue fan doesn't start).
Never use an open flued "Geyser" installed in a bathroom. A recipe for a
quick trip to oblivion.
Dickie Birds which have the habit of dropping twigs down chimneys till
they block up (so they can build a nice warm nest) are another hazard of
open flues.
DG
Derek *
Cartainly all drinking water equipment was supposed to be approved by
(Your Local) water board and stamped to that effect.
As a rule taps etc etc. have born a generic stamp (National Water
Council ??) valid nationally for many (35+) years.
Certainly in Holland a plumber dealing with drinking water has to be
qualified. In the USA electricians have to be sertified state by state.
IE a new England Electrician can't work in Illinois.
We don't want this do we? I thought we had abandoned this Europe wide.
DG
Derek *
He bought it second hand 4 years ago but nothing came to him. Nobody was
asking for them in those days.
DG
MikeinCamden
oxygen, hydrogen and radioactive CO2 I feel confident enough.>
Working on V2s I expect von Braun.
Derek *
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:02:30 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>>Hence they are now requiring a full examination,
>
>At what stage?
When ownership of the house is transferred the buyer's solicitor will
request the documantation.
>
>>and presumably defects
>>to be rectified. By co-incidence the colour of fixed house wiring has
>>been changed this year so the investigating wire puller can tell from
>>the colour of the wiring whether an addition was done before or after
>>the inception of the regulations.
>
>Surely the legislation is not retrospective?
No it isn't. But there is a problem in determining whether whatever
suspect item falls within the due dates as specified in the legislation.
Some events like building an extension bring about the need for
inspection.
In any event Solicitors are likely to include relevant questions on
their standard form of questionaire.
>
>>>>AIUI you are entitled to replace a faulty socket provided it's not in a
>>>>designated area near a sink/shower/bog etc. Moving is out. You can't
>>>>replace a socket for your OAP Mum, whether you charge for it or not so
>>>>she'll have to make do with extension leads and adaptors.
>>>>We don't want to live like this FFS.
>>>
>>>They say you cant, but FFS since when did we all live our lives to the
>>>letter of the law?
>>>
>>
>>I just don't want some snotty nosed inspector coming round the house
>>with an instrument that measures the loop impedance of all my ring mains
>>and telling me it's out of spec and he'll ahve to start investigating by
>>openeing evey socket in the house till he finds the defective one.
>
>And why would some snotty nosed inspector be doing this
He'd be doing it at the request of the person selling the house and at
his expense.
>and while we
>are at it, what LA will have the resources to do this?
Good question. Many building control departments were unaware of the
implications of this just weeks before it's inception.But that's par for
the course where LEA services are concerned.
>
>>Or
>>condemning a ring main altogether because it was done by an amateur 20
>>years ago and the cables are routed round the wall and not straight in
>>the proscribed fashion .up from the socket to the ceiling and through
>>the roof void so the extension will ahve to be completely re-wired and
>>re-decorated
>>
>>Just for instance... You understand...
>
>I do, but I think you should go for a pint and ignore it.
>
I will/have/am (except Mateus Rose is my tipple) but I think the case
for new legislation like this should be a matter of principle, and the
principle should be right, and in this case it's not.
If OTOH it's just George Brown wants to do something about the hole in
his tax revenues (which are about the size of the moon) which comes
about from him bezzling his figures about the economy and employment he
should say so not get Prescot (who is subject to pressure from the
Glaziers, the Wire Pullers and the Fish Friers) to bring in bogus
legislation controlling the minutae of what we do in our own private
houses.
DG
Derek *
Besser Braun als Brown !
DG
j...@somewhere.com
<De...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:02:30 +0000, j...@somewhere.com wrote:
>
>
>>>Hence they are now requiring a full examination,
>>
>>At what stage?
>
>When ownership of the house is transferred the buyer's solicitor will
>request the documantation.
Why would he make the assumption that there has been electrical work
done?
>>>and presumably defects
>>>to be rectified. By co-incidence the colour of fixed house wiring has
>>>been changed this year so the investigating wire puller can tell from
>>>the colour of the wiring whether an addition was done before or after
>>>the inception of the regulations.
>>
>>Surely the legislation is not retrospective?
>
>No it isn't. But there is a problem in determining whether whatever
>suspect item falls within the due dates as specified in the legislation.
>Some events like building an extension bring about the need for
>inspection.
>
>In any event Solicitors are likely to include relevant questions on
>their standard form of questionaire.
Sorry not familiar with Solicitor questionnaires, are they common in
England?
>>>I just don't want some snotty nosed inspector coming round the house
>>>with an instrument that measures the loop impedance of all my ring mains
>>>and telling me it's out of spec and he'll ahve to start investigating by
>>>openeing evey socket in the house till he finds the defective one.
>>
>>And why would some snotty nosed inspector be doing this
>
>He'd be doing it at the request of the person selling the house and at
>his expense.
Is that in the legislation?
>>>Just for instance... You understand...
>>
>>I do, but I think you should go for a pint and ignore it.
>>
>
>I will/have/am (except Mateus Rose is my tipple) but I think the case
>for new legislation like this should be a matter of principle, and the
>principle should be right, and in this case it's not.
Agreed. While there is nothing wrong in attempting to produce
regulations that ensure a safer house, its mad to prohibit any non
"qualified" person from doing the work - especially when you consider
how easy it can be to obtain said qualifications.
>If OTOH it's just George Brown wants to do something about the hole in
>his tax revenues (which are about the size of the moon) which comes
>about from him bezzling his figures about the economy and employment he
>should say so not get Prescot (who is subject to pressure from the
>Glaziers, the Wire Pullers and the Fish Friers) to bring in bogus
>legislation controlling the minutae of what we do in our own private
>houses.
This isn't about raising revenue, its about meddling.
JRP
Alan G
wrote:
Quite easy.
The moulding the glazing is fitted too has the date stamped into it.
We had a window replaced a couple of years ago. Got Pilkington 2002
stamped onto the aluminium
MikeinCamden
Quite easy.
The moulding the glazing is fitted too has the date stamped into it.
We had a window replaced a couple of years ago. Got Pilkington 2002
stamped onto the aluminium>
How do you date a Victorian single-glazed window?