The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
Steve Glynn
Welsh miners at Tonypandy. Not appreciating myths, and being in a rather
bad mood, I turned my wife over onto researching this issue .
Over to Anna .....
Some of you may have read about my previous research on this issue (please
see ..............). but I can now confirm the following.
FACT NO. 1. There was an unrest/uprising of the miners in Tonypandy in
1910/1911
FACT NO. 2 Churchill did send in the troops and the Met Police to back up
the local Police at the time
FACT NO 3. ONE PERSON DIED OF HEAD INJURIES CAUSED BY "A TRUNCHEON LIKE
INSTRUMENT"
I have spoken to the Mine Wokers Union in areas all over the country, the
local papers, the libraries, the universities, and the Registrars of Births
Marriages and Deaths. My final, and I feel conclusive information comes
from the Rhondda Public Library, who hold a very large file on this "riot",,
and are available on www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/libraries/index.htm.
They are very helpful and do have one person in the department who is
particularly interested in this. From this page you need to search for the
library at Trilochry , and their archives - excuse my spelling, I'm not too
up on the Welsh) He is the gentleman I spoke to, and has, in his own time,
collated information and disinformation from other sources and back up the
research they have in the library. I can only go on the facts I find.
Should anyone have any further PROVEN information on this, I should be very
interested to hear. I can be e-mailed at anna....@ntlworld.com
Thanks for taking the time to read this - I hope it's myth laid to bed.
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Steve
festered, then this country would still be Great Britain not the United
(!!!!!!) KIngdom, shortly to become zone 4 of the EUssr.
d@ve
--
d@ve ~ Dundee
"Steve" <st...@day1956.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:as8bue$4rq$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
HolyHandGrenade
"Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:as8a7p$oul59$1...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
> Someone calling himself 'Ivan Alias' alleged that British troops fired on
> Welsh miners at Tonypandy. Not appreciating myths, and being in a
rather
> bad mood, I turned my wife over onto researching this issue .
>
> Over to Anna .....
>
> Some of you may have read about my previous research on this issue (please
> see ..............). but I can now confirm the following.
>
> FACT NO. 1. There was an unrest/uprising of the miners in Tonypandy in
> 1910/1911
> FACT NO. 2 Churchill did send in the troops and the Met Police to back
up
> the local Police at the time
> FACT NO 3. ONE PERSON DIED OF HEAD INJURIES CAUSED BY "A TRUNCHEON LIKE
> INSTRUMENT"
My grandfather was present at this event .. he told a different story.
Steve Glynn
"HolyHandGrenade" <t...@matari.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:as8fad$dft$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Quite possibly he was there present, and quite possibly he told you a story
or two. My grandfather used to tell me stories, often begining 'Once upon
a time .....'
No end of other people's grandparents were, apparently, also there at the
massacre at Tonypandy, and the fact they all managed to survive to tell the
tale must make it the most inefficient massacre in history.
Over to Anna, who spent all of half a day researching this myth ......
I can do no more than I have done. I have spent the day researching
libraries, Univesities, NUM, PRO's. Registrars, etcs. I cannot find one
record of a grubby little street urchin who found a spent bullet/shell etc
in the road and took it home for a souvenier. I have found ONE record of a
chap who was killed by a ' truncheon-like weapon' , however no-one was
prosecuted for this. I will assume it was the police for "political"
decency. However, my background also brings me to think that this chap may
have "brought to ruin" with the daughter of someone, and this was an
expendient time to remove him. This remains, as all things will. in the
mists of time.
PLEEASE ... MAY I HAVE A DIRECT E- MAIL FROM THE GRUBBY STREET URCHIN WHO
WASA ACTUALLY THERE????
These are SOME of the numbers I rang, and web pages where appropriate. In
deference to confidentiality I will not disc;ose the names of the people I
spoke to. enjoy:-
0122 6215555
www.swan.ac.uk/swcc
01623 621 611
01443 404092
01792 205678
01792 295021
www.therhondda.co.uk/tonypandy (search for GR Willliams,, 2002)
0292 058 3622
02920 382116
02920 790285
0292 087 1690
01443 348 6869
The Pontyprith Obersever
The Aberdair Leader
01443 433163
01443 733204
AND FINALLY -- THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER:-
www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/libraries/index.html
Sorry, I got bored by then, so I didn't phone the Rhondda police. I
assumed the people I was speaking to had done.
-- Steve back again....
Turn Anna loose, and, as you can see happens, all hell is unleashed. She
does actually exist, as Robert Henderson can confirm, since he once bought
her a vodka and tonic.
Facts is facts and myths is myths, as them on us what come from North of the
Trent says.
Steve
Robert Henderson
<st...@day1956.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>Tis a pity it did not happen and in more of the areas that socialism
>festered, then this country would still be Great Britain
Er... it has been the UK since 1801. RH
>not the United
>(!!!!!!) KIngdom, shortly to become zone 4 of the EUssr.
>
>
--
Robert Henderson
phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
Ivanalias
>From: "Steve Glynn" steve...@ntlworld.com
>Someone calling himself 'Ivan Alias' alleged that British troops fired on
>Welsh miners at Tonypandy.
Yup. I have met people who witnessed it.
>Not appreciating myths, and being in a rather
>bad mood, I turned my wife over onto researching this issue .
Sorry to interrupt your onanistic fantasies about Winston, but it's not a
myth...
>FACT NO. 1. There was an unrest/uprising of the miners in Tonypandy in
>1910/1911
Yup.
>FACT NO. 2 Churchill did send in the troops and the Met Police to back up
>the local Police at the time
Indeed he did.
>FACT NO 3. ONE PERSON DIED OF HEAD INJURIES CAUSED BY "A TRUNCHEON LIKE
>INSTRUMENT"
More than that. You just haven't found the evidence, that's all.
> My final, and I feel conclusive information comes
>from the Rhondda Public Library, who hold a very large file on this "riot",,
>and are available on www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/libraries/index.htm.
Heh! As a member of Rhondda Libraries between the ages of 3 and 21 (when I left
home after college), and knowing several of the staff, I think that you are
looking in the wrong place! Most of the archive stuff was dumped years ago -
they lost a lot of the main archive in 1944 when a bomb hit Treorchy library,
and quite a bit more was dumped when the old Ferndale Library moved to far
smaller premises in the late 80's. Added to this, quite a bit more went in
1997, at local govt. reorganisation. There was little enough local archive
stuff available anyway - the S.Wales media at the time was reknowned for its
right-wing attitude, and rarely gave any story that didn't help the coal owners
case...
Face it - you're arguing about something on which there is little evidence
either way with a local of the area who has met people who were at the
Tonypandy riots (albeit when I was quite small and they were very elderly, but
still - the old reading room at Ferndale Library was stuffed with octagenerian
Morning Star readers who liked to teach the youngsters the history of the
valleys), and who has family who knew a few of them quite well. You're
snookered, old chap...
Ivan
Ivanalias
>From: "HolyHandGrenade" t...@matari.demon.co.uk
>My grandfather was present at this event .. he told a different story.
Ahh - but that's direct evidence - Steve isn't interested in this - it
contradicts him, and isn't on a dubious website...
Ivan
Ivanalias
>Facts is facts and myths is myths, as them on us what come from North of the
>Trent says.
Do you? I thought you mainly said 'Yes sir - take our jobs, we don't mind'...
Ivan
welsh witch
"Ivanalias" <ivan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021130203654...@mb-fz.aol.com...
******************************************************************
Chris Bryant MP
... Churchill sent 300 police and troops in. Two miners were killed
and
many others were injured in the so-called 'Tonypandy riots'. ...
www.chrisbryantmp.co.uk/rhondda_history.htm
AND just look at some of the photos of this era what a terrifying
life....
http://www.therhondda.co.uk/photos/riots/menu.html
No wonder "Cwm Rhondda" that wonderful hymn came from here which
although not being a Xtian is the most stirring when rendered by a
male voice choir from this area
midi music only if you're in a Sunday Morning mood!
http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/1999ind.htm
Steve Glynn
Actually, it isn't direct evidence, Ivan. I'm sure your mum told you
about Cinderalla and about Snow White and the Seven Dwarves when you were a
kid, but that's not direct evidence that Cinders et all actually existed.
And, you'll be pleased to know that I also take seriously a website that
can't possibly be dubious, since you yourself recommended it:
(The South Wales Coalfield Collection). There I discovered the South
Wales Miners' Librarian, Siân Williams, a very helpful woman who looked into
my enquiry and phoned me back yesterday (Saturday) morning to tell me that
she'd found no direct evidence at all that the Tonypandy Massacre ever took
place, and that as far as she and her colleagues at the Collection are
concerned, it's an urban myth (her exact words). Phone her yourself if
you don't believe me.
The NUM, South Wales NUM, the history departments of both Swansea and
Cardiff universities, various local newspapers, the the sometime archivist
for the Registrar for Births, Marriages, and Deaths for the Rhondda (she now
works at the Cardiff Registrar's) and the local libraries for Cardiff and
for the Rhondda are all of the same opinion. The Rhondda library were
particularly helpful, since they have an extensive archive on the Rhondda
mining industry and the dispute.
They could come up with the suspicious death of one miner during the
dispute, who was hit over the head with a 'truncheon-like instrument', which
might, of cours,e have been weilded by a cop or by one of his neighbours,
since no one knows who did it.
Oh, and btw, the South Wales Coalfield Collection recommended the 'dubious'
website I discovered
http://www.therhondda.co.uk/tonypandy
as being pretty authoratative. In the interests of historical accuracy, I
think you ought to warn them that you think it's 'dubious' and explain to
them why it's dubious. I'm sure they'll be interested. I'd certainly
be interested in what their reply is. ;)
Steve
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Greg Hennessy
wrote:
>
>Chris Bryant MP
>... Churchill sent 300 police and troops in. Two miners were killed
>and
>many others were injured in the so-called 'Tonypandy riots'. ...
>www.chrisbryantmp.co.uk/rhondda_history.htm
>
From
http://www.therhondda.co.uk/photos/riots/troops_tonypandy.html
"On 9th December 1910 at 1200hrs. the 18th. Hussars arrive at Tonypandy.
Part of the myth of the Tonypandy Riots was fostered in the popular press
of the 1960's which presented melodramatic accounts about soldiers firing
on the miners. There is no evidence to substantiate those claims and
relationships between the Cambrian Lodge committee and General Macready
became one of acceptable tolerance.
"
QED
greg
--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
Wollt ihr das Bett in Flammen sehen
Ivanalias
>From: "welsh witch" webmi...@nospam.com
>Chris Bryant MP
>... Churchill sent 300 police and troops in. Two miners were killed
>and
>many others were injured in the so-called 'Tonypandy riots'. ...
>www.chrisbryantmp.co.uk/rhondda_history.htm
Nice chap, is Chris Bryant. Lot of people in the Rhondda have quite a lot of
time for him. Lives in Wattstown, afair.
>AND just look at some of the photos of this era what a terrifying
>life....
>http://www.therhondda.co.uk/photos/riots/menu.html
Duw it's hard ;-)
Read 'Cwmardy' by Lewis Jones to get a fictionalised but very accurate picture
of Rhondda life at the turn of last century.
>No wonder "Cwm Rhondda" that wonderful hymn came from here which
>although not being a Xtian is the most stirring when rendered by a
>male voice choir from this area
>midi music only if you're in a Sunday Morning mood!
>http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/1999ind.htm
Ms Witch - we agree on something! I too like the sound of a male voice choir -
Cwm Rhondda, Aberystwyth, Myfanwy - all moving and wonderful pieces of music.
I'm not a Xian either - but why should the devil have all the best tunes? ;-)
Ivan
Ivanalias
>QED
Why QED? Because a dubious website says so? You'll need to try harder than
that!
Ivan
Ivanalias
>And, you'll be pleased to know that I also take seriously a website that
>can't possibly be dubious, since you yourself recommended it:
>
>http://www.swan.ac.uk/swcc/
Good for you.
>There I discovered the South
>Wales Miners' Librarian, Siân Williams, a very helpful woman who looked into
>my enquiry and phoned me back yesterday (Saturday) morning to tell me that
>she'd found no direct evidence at all that the Tonypandy Massacre ever took
>place, and that as far as she and her colleagues at the Collection are
>concerned, it's an urban myth (her exact words).
Heh! Lets put you right on a couple of things.
1. Do stop using this word 'massacre'. It's so dramatic.
2. She presumably didn't have any proof that it didn't happen, either?
3. As previously stated, their records are not particularly complete.
4. Ms Williams and her colleagues were not there at the time. I have spoken
with people who were.
>The NUM, South Wales NUM, the history departments of both Swansea and
>Cardiff universities, various local newspapers, the the sometime archivist
>for the Registrar for Births, Marriages, and Deaths for the Rhondda (she now
>works at the Cardiff Registrar's) and the local libraries for Cardiff and
>for the Rhondda are all of the same opinion. The Rhondda library were
>particularly helpful, since they have an extensive archive on the Rhondda
>mining industry and the dispute.
I've already put you right re: the Rhondda Library Service. The Registrar
wouldn't really be of any use, as I doubt that they have the time or the
inclination to go through every death certificate for the period in question,
and the cause of death needn't necessarily be terribly accurately recorded
anyway. The local newspapers were reknowned for their sympathy to the
coal-owners (who do you think owned them?...), Swansea and Cardiff universities
cannot really do anything with media evidence that isn't there for the reasons
outlined above, and the NUM post-dates the events by 35 years. What records the
NUM had were already mouldy and fit for throwing out when they were combed by
Hywel Jenkins in 1968 to write his excellent publication 'The Fed'....
>They could come up with the suspicious death of one miner during the
>dispute, who was hit over the head with a 'truncheon-like instrument', which
>might, of cours,e have been weilded by a cop or by one of his neighbours,
>since no one knows who did it.
Hmm. All my neighbours carry truncheons...not...
>Oh, and btw, the South Wales Coalfield Collection recommended the 'dubious'
>website I discovered
>http://www.therhondda.co.uk/tonypandy
>as being pretty authoratative. In the interests of historical accuracy, I
>think you ought to warn them that you think it's 'dubious' and explain to
>them why it's dubious. I'm sure they'll be interested. I'd certainly
>be interested in what their reply is. ;)
You obviously haven't read the plethora of books written about the history of
the Rhondda, have you? This site is drawn from these. Many of them are a bag of
arse, with the odd decent book thrown in...
Ivan
Neil Jung
>>Subject: Re: The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
>>From: "welsh witch" webmi...@nospam.com
>
>>Chris Bryant MP
>>... Churchill sent 300 police and troops in. Two miners were killed
>>and
>>many others were injured in the so-called 'Tonypandy riots'. ...
>>www.chrisbryantmp.co.uk/rhondda_history.htm
>
> Nice chap, is Chris Bryant. Lot of people in the Rhondda have quite a lot of
> time for him. Lives in Wattstown, afair.
He may have done, but he's now living on the farm above Stanleytown
with his partner.
--
Neil Jung
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/index.html
http://www.urban75.com/index.html
fred_eg_bowinatuck
> She presumably didn't have any proof that it didn't happen, either?
The true mark of a conspiracy theorirst,
who should be left to foam at the mouth,
in any convenient corner.
Steve Glynn
> >Subject: Re: The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
> >From: "Steve Glynn" steve...@ntlworld.com
>
> >And, you'll be pleased to know that I also take seriously a website that
> >can't possibly be dubious, since you yourself recommended it:
> >
> >http://www.swan.ac.uk/swcc/
>
> Good for you.
>
> >There I discovered the South
> >Wales Miners' Librarian, Siân Williams, a very helpful woman who looked
into
> >my enquiry and phoned me back yesterday (Saturday) morning to tell me
that
> >she'd found no direct evidence at all that the Tonypandy Massacre ever
took
> >place, and that as far as she and her colleagues at the Collection are
> >concerned, it's an urban myth (her exact words).
>
> Heh! Lets put you right on a couple of things.
>
> 1. Do stop using this word 'massacre'. It's so dramatic.
> 2. She presumably didn't have any proof that it didn't happen, either?
I can't prove the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist, either. Usually the
burden of proof is on the person making the assertion.
No, but do you not find it rather suspect that while you or I would have no
difficulty in proving that The Massacre at Amritsar (1919 -- 379 dead), the
My Lai Massacre (1968 -- 109 dead), the Peterloo Massacre (1819 -- 11 dead,
500 wounded), and plenty of other massacres actually happened, but none of
the organisations you'd expect to record this -- what do you want to call
it? -- in Tonypandy?
You'd have thought someone would have mentioned it. Perhaps the strike
leaders didn't think it worth bothering about? There's plenty of
documentation on other events during the strike, after all.
> 3. As previously stated, their records are not particularly complete.
> 4. Ms Williams and her colleagues were not there at the time. I have
spoken
> with people who were.
>
Good. Then you can give us some help. Roughly what do you think
happened?
> >The NUM, South Wales NUM, the history departments of both Swansea and
> >Cardiff universities, various local newspapers, the the sometime
archivist
> >for the Registrar for Births, Marriages, and Deaths for the Rhondda (she
now
> >works at the Cardiff Registrar's) and the local libraries for Cardiff and
> >for the Rhondda are all of the same opinion. The Rhondda library were
> >particularly helpful, since they have an extensive archive on the Rhondda
> >mining industry and the dispute.
>
> I've already put you right re: the Rhondda Library Service.
Have you? What did you say? The Archivist there claimed he had a very
large collection of contemporary materials on the strike, in which he took a
particular interest since his uncle was involved. He's based at Treorchy.
mailto:Nick.E....@rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk
>The Registrar
> wouldn't really be of any use, as I doubt that they have the time or the
> inclination to go through every death certificate for the period in
question,
> and the cause of death needn't necessarily be terribly accurately recorded
> anyway. >
No, but she did tell us that she'd been asked this question before, and had
never been able to find un unusual cluster of deaths at the time of the
stike.
The local newspapers were reknowned for their sympathy to the
> coal-owners (who do you think owned them?...),
And are you trying to tell me they wouldn't bother to report troops shooting
on striking miners or people getting killed during confrontations with them?
Or that the strike organisers didn't think to make a fuss about their
colleagues getting shot at or killed and make sure it was reported
somewhere? Or that none of at least the (admittedly few) Labour MPs
around at the time didn't ask about it?
>Swansea and Cardiff universities
> cannot really do anything with media evidence that isn't there for the
reasons
> outlined above, and the NUM post-dates the events by 35 years. What
records the
> NUM had were already mouldy and fit for throwing out when they were combed
by
> Hywel Jenkins in 1968 to write his excellent publication 'The Fed'....
>
> >They could come up with the suspicious death of one miner during the
> >dispute, who was hit over the head with a 'truncheon-like instrument',
which
> >might, of cours,e have been weilded by a cop or by one of his neighbours,
> >since no one knows who did it.
>
> Hmm. All my neighbours carry truncheons...not...
It was a 'truncheon-like object' (based on the wounds). Could have been a
cricket-stump or a broom-handle for all I know.
>
> >Oh, and btw, the South Wales Coalfield Collection recommended the
'dubious'
> >website I discovered
> >http://www.therhondda.co.uk/tonypandy
> >as being pretty authoratative. In the interests of historical accuracy,
I
> >think you ought to warn them that you think it's 'dubious' and explain to
> >them why it's dubious. I'm sure they'll be interested. I'd
certainly
> >be interested in what their reply is. ;)
>
> You obviously haven't read the plethora of books written about the history
of
> the Rhondda, have you? This site is drawn from these. Many of them are a
bag of
> arse, with the odd decent book thrown in...
>
> Ivan
OK, well please post some checkable details from your book or books. Do
any of them actually give any indications of how many people are supposed to
have been killed by the troops and/or police, and roughly when this is
supposed to have happened. Names would be ideal.
Over to you ....
Steve
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Ivanalias
>He may have done, but he's now living on the farm above Stanleytown
>with his partner.
Thought he was living above Wattstown on a farm? Ah well, same hillside...
Ivan (Who remembers when there was a decent road between Stanleytown and
Llanwonno...)
Ivanalias
>The true mark of a conspiracy theorirst,
>who should be left to foam at the mouth,
>in any convenient corner.
A 'theoririst', eh? Wots one of them then?...
Is it another word to describe 'person who knew people who were there'?...
Ivan
welsh witch
"Ivanalias" <ivan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021201132532...@mb-fq.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
> >From: "welsh witch" webmi...@nospam.com
>
> Duw it's hard ;-)
> Read 'Cwmardy' by Lewis Jones to get a fictionalised but very
accurate picture
> of Rhondda life at the turn of last century.
>
> >No wonder "Cwm Rhondda" that wonderful hymn came from here which
> >although not being a Xtian is the most stirring when rendered by a
> >male voice choir from this area
> >midi music only if you're in a Sunday Morning mood!
> >http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/1999ind.htm
>
> Ms Witch - we agree on something! I too like the sound of a male
voice choir -
> Cwm Rhondda, Aberystwyth, Myfanwy - all moving and wonderful pieces
of music.
> I'm not a Xian either - but why should the devil have all the best
tunes? ;-)
>
> Ivan
****************************************
Good grief...this is frightening:-)....but I have all the above music
midi only on my website...I put midi because its so quick to download,
I know of course it cannot compare with "real" My mother's name is
Myfanwy so I was introduced to that early on.
There are two groups of people to whom I have an enormous emotional
response. One is the mining community and the other the firemen.
Who can tell what mkes us what we are?...I remember learning about the
300 miners buried in a pit disaster a few miles from here at Gresford.
The horror of that stayed with me for ages. I also found a very old
record in the attic called "Don't go down the mine today Daddy".....or
something like that which only served to increase my horror and
sympathy for miners as I had terrifying visions of my father going
down the mines to work befoe I understood that the dust he buried
himself in was that which collected on the legal documents on top of
the cupboards in the office.
The mining community so brilliant and evocative with all the coal dust
in their voices....Added to that the gardeners son I loved greatly
died of mining related cillicosis (No I don;t know how to spell it!)
I would like to have time to read the book you've mentioned.. "The
Rape of the Fair Country" by Cordell also interesting...the
Ironmasters and all.
Now where were we round 5 I think :-)
http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/boris.htm
Steve Glynn
That's it. It can also be used to describe 'someone who knows ghosts exist
because a man he met in the pub swears his auntie once saw one' or 'someone
who's worried about being kidnapped by evil space aliens because it seems to
happen all the time, at least according to the National Enquirer' (U.S.
usage).
Steve
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Steve Glynn
> >Subject: Re: The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
> >From: "welsh witch" webmi...@nospam.com
>
> Read 'Cwmardy' by Lewis Jones to get a fictionalised but very accurate
picture
> of Rhondda life at the turn of last century.
>
Not the fictionalised but very accurate picture of a hwp-hwp fan and
cultural hwhystorian whose parents kept in the attic? :)
Steve Glynn
What, exactly, do you find doubious about this website (recommended, you
will recall, by the archivist of the site you recommended to me)? That it
casts doubts upon your unsubstantiated claims?
Steve Glynn
But the strange thing is that it's perfectly easy to document that the riots
took place and that a lot of people were injured.
However, for some strange reason, it's impossible to document that many
people were killed (1, or according to WW, below, 2).
Possibly we conclude that, for some unknown reason, various archives have
deliberately dumped materials relating to deaths and kept the rest (and that
the bomb you mention was curiously selective in the material it destroyed).
Possibly we conclude that 'octagenerian Morning Star readers who liked to
teach the youngsters the history of the valleys' might not be the most
reliable of witnesses, any more than octagenerian Daily Telegraph readers
are necessarily the most reliable sources about certain events either -- not
because they're deliberately telling falsehoods out of some political bias,
but because if you've repeated a story which clearly fits your political
preferences for the last 50 or 60 years, you almost certainly believe it by
now even if you were originally told it as happening 'to someone I know' and
thought it made a better story as 'It happened to someone I [rather than a
friend] knew'.
Anyway, Ivan, I'm delighted you have family who apparently knew some of the
people who knew people killed at Tonypandy quite well (or was it who knew
these octagenarians quite well?).
Either way, do you have the names of any of these people who were shot by
the troops? If you do, I can get on with doing some verification (and
something both my wife and I do know how to do is verify this sort of
thing).
Look at it this way, Ivan. You may recall that The Gaul, a trawler out of
Hull, vanished very suddenly back in the early 70's at the top bit of
Norway, very close to Soviet waters. I can verify that for you, and find
you the names of the crew who were lost. I can give you the name of one
of the last skippers who saw her on the radar (and there were several, whose
names I could find out for you) -- apparently one minute she was there on
the screen and the next minute she wasn't.
Obviously every skipper in the area headed to her last known position, and
there was no sign of her. Anyone who knows about fishing in those waters
will tell you that, under the then weather conditions, a trawler can go down
within seconds (if you're hauling in a catch, the superstructure is icing --
which can overturn you in a couple of minutes -- and a big wave hits your
stern while the trawl gates are open, you have had it).
You'll still find people in Hull who are convinced she was somehow kidnapped
by the Soviets, presumably because they don't want to believe their family
and friends were drowned, even though a couple of years ago she was found on
the sea-bed, just about where she was last seen, with plenty of skeletons on
board and no sign of being scuttled.
Which do you believe, given those facts (which I'll document if you want?).
That she sank in appalling weather or that the Soviets either sank her or
that they somehow kidnapped her, made her invisible to radar, and somehow
later took her back and scuttled her, invisibly, in the right place to cover
their tracks?
I can certainly intoduce you to some people who 'know' their husband or
their dad, who was certainly on the Gaul, was kidnapped by the Soviets.
Steve
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Neil Jung
>>Subject: Re: The Tonypandy massacre that never happened
>>From: Neil Jung neil...@lycos.co.uk
>
>
>>He may have done, but he's now living on the farm above Stanleytown
>>with his partner.
>
> Thought he was living above Wattstown on a farm? Ah well, same hillside...
Same horse, different jockey, eh? ;-)
> Ivan (Who remembers when there was a decent road between Stanleytown and
> Llanwonno...)
I remember, 20 years ago, walking up the mountain and being attacked
and chased by a loony farmer bellowing 'Get orffff moi laaaaand!!!' :-)
www.treherbert.info
Cheers,
Treherbert on the Web
www.treherbert.info
robert...@hotmail.com
niall.k...@gmail.com
> Someone calling himself 'Ivan Alias' alleged that British troops fired on
>
>
> Some of you may have read about my previous research on this issue (please
> see ..............). but I can now confirm the following.
>
> 1910/1911
> the local Police at the time
> INSTRUMENT"
>
> local papers, the libraries, the universities, and the Registrars of Births
> Marriages and Deaths. My final, and I feel conclusive information comes
> and are available on www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/libraries/index.htm.
> particularly interested in this. From this page you need to search for the
> library at Trilochry , and their archives - excuse my spelling, I'm not too
> up on the Welsh) He is the gentleman I spoke to, and has, in his own time,
> collated information and disinformation from other sources and back up the
> research they have in the library. I can only go on the facts I find.
>
> Should anyone have any further PROVEN information on this, I should be very
> interested to hear. I can be e-mailed at anna....@ntlworld.com
>
> Thanks for taking the time to read this - I hope it's myth laid to bed.
>
> ---
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> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
niall.k...@gmail.com
mro...@btopenworld.com
What did the newspapers of the day say?
There would have been inquests. What do the Coroner's reports say? (All public tecords)
These fatal casualties would have been buried locally within days. Where is the location of their graves one would think to be local knowledge? In any case, cemeteries, churchyards have registers. So does the General Register Office!
Did these people not have relatives and descendants in so close a community?
memorials? commemorations? Where are they?
If you are going to question the integrity of someone who has taken the trouble to research the subject then at least you might grant him the courtesy of putting meat on the bones of your argument.
Are you sure your grand dad was not relating a story he had heard from somebody who had heard it from someone else?
After all anyone old enough able to remember these events first hand would be around 120 years old today.
Farmer Giles
abelard
wrote:
doubtless that is why you dig up old baloney
--
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Farmer Giles
abelard
--
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Farmer Giles
Howe - something about a dead sheep..?
abelard
i'm betting the dead sheep could maul all of you
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