New IPS page on ID cards...

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James Hammerton

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May 12, 2010, 6:30:02 PM5/12/10
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See:

http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm

"Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their
manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National
Identity Register. We will announce in due course how this will be
achieved. Applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we would
advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further announcements.

Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as
such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within
Europe. We will update you with further information as soon as we have it."

James

--
James Hammerton,
http://jhammerton.wordpress.org/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 6:36:36 PM5/12/10
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"James Hammerton" <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:850ofa...@mid.individual.net...


> See:
>
> http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm
>
> "Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their manifestos
> that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National Identity Register.
> We will announce in due course how this will be achieved. Applications can
> continue to be made for ID cards but we would advise anyone thinking of
> applying to wait for further announcements.
>
> Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as such
> can still be used as an identity document and for travel within Europe. We
> will update you with further information as soon as we have it."<<<


Oh dear. No sleep for people in our major towns and cities tonight, then!
The frantic sounds of ethnic drumming and shouts of laughter as millions of
illegal immigrants celebrate their good fortune will reverberate until the
early hours.......

James Hammerton

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May 12, 2010, 6:40:47 PM5/12/10
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Why do you imagine it'll make any difference to illegal immigration?

Periander

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May 12, 2010, 6:41:09 PM5/12/10
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"The gods have made us mad" <sta...@destruction.com> wrote in
news:850orr...@mid.individual.net:

Doesn't follow at all ... ID cards would have been forged (if they
haven't already been) and of course produce valid ID and folks stop
asking questions ... no ID and people like the police ask questions
until they're happy with the answers.

--

Regards,


Periander

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 6:44:49 PM5/12/10
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"James Hammerton" <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:850p3...@mid.individual.net...


It was one policy which , although unpalatable, might have helped rid the
country of the illegal immigrant infestation.

It's quite in keeping with Nick Cameron's Euro-worship that they would put
an immediate halt on something that might (possibly) have helped the UK
retain its identity.

This pair of traitors hate Britain - as will become clear in the coming
months.

James Hammerton

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May 12, 2010, 6:51:54 PM5/12/10
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How exactly would it achieve that?

William Black

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May 12, 2010, 7:00:37 PM5/12/10
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You honestly believed that:

1. People in the UK would submit to a 'stop and search' procedure? I
certainly wouldn't. I am a freeborn Englishman going about my lawful
business and you better have a bloody good reason for stopping me and
demanding to see my papers.

2. That clever people couldn't copy the thing closely enough to fool a
copper doing a document spot check on a cold evening?

3. That distinguished members of the ethnic community wouldn't put
themselves out by refusing to carry such ID cards and then insisting on
wandering at random in areas where the police carried out the document
checks in order to see if the checking policy was being implemented in a
racist manner?

How many ethnic minority QCs and politicians do you want to see arrested
in an evening in Stratford?

How many irate phone calls from the Home Secretary do you think a Chief
Constable will tolerate before he tells his men to stop doing random
checks on the ID cards of brown people?

<the correct answer is '1'>

The fact is that about 10% of the UK population is from the ethnic
minorities, about 6% are foreign born (we don't actually know the
current figures, those are estimates, the last census was 9 years ago)
and they now constitute a group that has substantial political
influence, albeit a level of influence far below what those numbers
seem to indicate.

Realistically about 65 MPs in the new HoC should be from the ethnic
minorities and the reality is that it's about 20.

--
William Black

These are the gilded popinjays and murderous assassins of Perfidious
Albion and they are about their Queen's business. Any man who impedes
their passage does so at his own peril.

Tim Watts

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May 12, 2010, 7:01:25 PM5/12/10
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On 12/05/10 23:44, The gods have made us mad wrote:

> It was one policy which , although unpalatable, might have helped rid
> the country of the illegal immigrant infestation.

Yes, because "illegals" won't every disappear underground where identity
checks are not made. This is the same falsehood as "ID cards will
prevent terrorism" when the most notorious terrorists of recent years
did nothing to hide their true identity.

> It's quite in keeping with Nick Cameron's Euro-worship that they would
> put an immediate halt on something that might (possibly) have helped the
> UK retain its identity.

The UK lost its identity as soon as Blair started eroding the civil
liberties of the common man to go about his business unhindered that the
British have been admired for for so long.

> This pair of traitors hate Britain - as will become clear in the coming
> months.

No, the traitors were Blair and New Labour.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 7:05:45 PM5/12/10
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"James Hammerton" <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:850pob...@mid.individual.net...


While not perfect, it would at least have been a start - and the cards could
have been made extremely difficult to forge.

No card, off to a detention centre, then off somewhere far away from
Britain.

Personally, I'd put up with checkpoints on every street if it meant
eradicating the illegal immigrant pestilence that has taken root here.

Nick Cameron's opposition is not rooted in a lust for civil liberties -
rather [i] a desire for a cheap and compliant workforce, and [ii] a desire
to undermine Britain in accordance with the wishes of their EU masters.

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 7:12:55 PM5/12/10
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"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hsfbur$lck$1...@news.eternal-september.org...


My answer would be, 'As many brown people not carrying identity cards as
possible'

I'd issue unofficial quotas - making it a matter of pride to see which
squad could round up the most brown people in an evening.

I'm a free born Englishman - and, as such, I don't want to see illegal
immigrants (or, for that matter, legal immigrants) in my country.

No card - on the boat!, whether you're a brown QC, or a brown chapatti
maker.

William Black

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May 12, 2010, 7:33:35 PM5/12/10
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Such acts would make this country an international pariah.

But it isn't going to happen.

The recent appalling BNP showing in the general election shows just how
much people overtly far less extreme than yourself are treated by the
eminently sensible British electorate.

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 7:41:33 PM5/12/10
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"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hsfdsl$a08$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

Well, we'd try and cope with the world's displeasure....


> But it isn't going to happen.
>
> The recent appalling BNP showing in the general election shows just how
> much people overtly far less extreme than yourself are treated by the
> eminently sensible British electorate.<


Ah, the best ally that the anti-BNP forces had was one Nicholas Griffin, a
man with sticky fingers, and a gargantuan appetite for spending.

However, what would happen if a Nationalist party arose which was led by a
man of principle?, a man who couldn't be bought?. a man who sought only to
promote the welfare of his race and country?

They'd have to kill him, I suppose - for such a man would have tremendous
popular appeal.

Message has been deleted

GeorgiePorgyPuddingAndPie

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May 12, 2010, 7:57:00 PM5/12/10
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"The gods have made us mad" <sta...@destruction.com> wrote in message
news:850qig...@mid.individual.net...
That must be why Spain with its strict identity control has 2 million
illegal immigarnts.

> No card, off to a detention centre, then off somewhere far away from
> Britain.
>

Cue: the detention of hundreds of forgetful pensioners.

> Personally, I'd put up with checkpoints on every street if it meant
> eradicating the illegal immigrant pestilence that has taken root here.
>

Personally I'd make life a living hell for any policeman who restricted my
liberty to go about my lawful business.


GeorgiePorgyPuddingAndPie

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May 12, 2010, 7:59:13 PM5/12/10
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"The gods have made us mad" <sta...@destruction.com> wrote in message
news:850slk...@mid.individual.net...

>
>
> However, what would happen if a Nationalist party arose which was led by a
> man of principle?, a man who couldn't be bought?. a man who sought only to
> promote the welfare of his race and country?
>
Let us know when it happens Adolf.


GeorgiePorgyPuddingAndPie

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May 12, 2010, 8:00:27 PM5/12/10
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"Tim Watts" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hsfc07$8hm$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

>
> No, the traitors were Blair and New Labour.
>
And Nazis like The gods have made us mad wrote


jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk

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May 12, 2010, 8:01:22 PM5/12/10
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On 13 May, 00:33, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/05/10 00:12, The gods have made us mad wrote:
>

[clip]


>
> The recent appalling BNP showing in the general election shows just how
> much people overtly far less extreme than yourself are treated by the
> eminently sensible British electorate.
>
> --
> William Black
>

Unless I badly miscalculated the voting statistics (and it certainly
won't be reported!), it would seem that (other than the Tories) the
BNP took the largest increase in voter numbers.

The gods have made us mad

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May 12, 2010, 8:04:15 PM5/12/10
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"GeorgiePorgyPuddingAndPie" <geo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HiHGn.566441$uD.1...@en-nntp-09.am2.easynews.com...

Er, is 'Nazi' supposed to convey some sort of slur?

Crumbs! - I'd vote for a National Socialist government every day of the
week, and twice on Sundays!

Andy Leighton

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May 13, 2010, 3:26:34 AM5/13/10
to
On Wed, 12 May 2010 17:01:22 -0700 (PDT),
jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk <jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13 May, 00:33, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/05/10 00:12, The gods have made us mad wrote:
>>
>
> [clip]
>>
>> The recent appalling BNP showing in the general election shows just how
>> much people overtly far less extreme than yourself are treated by the
>> eminently sensible British electorate.
>
> Unless I badly miscalculated the voting statistics (and it certainly
> won't be reported!), it would seem that (other than the Tories) the
> BNP took the largest increase in voter numbers.

They fielded a lot more candidates this time so the amount of any
increase in support isn't as easy to quantify as just quoting raw
numbers.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Paul Hyett

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May 13, 2010, 2:53:41 AM5/13/10
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On Wed, 12 May 2010 at 23:36:36, The gods have made us mad
<sta...@destruction.com> wrote in uk.politics.id-cards :

>
>"James Hammerton" <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:850ofa...@mid.individual.net...
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm
>>
>
>Oh dear. No sleep for people in our major towns and cities tonight,
>then! The frantic sounds of ethnic drumming and shouts of laughter as
>millions of illegal immigrants celebrate their good fortune will
>reverberate until the early hours.......

They should be drowned out by those celebrating the ending of a threat
to one of our main civil liberties!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

AlanG

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May 13, 2010, 7:22:49 AM5/13/10
to

Yebbut you're a traitor to the British people. You want to make us
property of the state. Hanging is too good for you. An island off the
Scottish coast with all the rest of your kind dumped on it would be
the best solution.

We are a free people and you and your kind can FOAD

Uncle Dave

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May 13, 2010, 7:27:26 AM5/13/10
to
On May 12, 11:40 pm, James Hammerton <jah.use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The gods have made us mad wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "James Hammerton" <jah.use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

> >news:850ofa...@mid.individual.net...
> >> See:
>
> >>http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm
>
> >> "Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their
> >> manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National
> >> Identity Register. We will announce in due course how this will be
> >> achieved. Applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we
> >> would advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further
> >> announcements.
>
> >> Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as
> >> such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within
> >> Europe. We will update you with further information as soon as we have
> >> it."<<<
>
> > Oh dear.  No sleep for people in our major towns and cities tonight,
> > then! The frantic sounds of ethnic drumming and shouts of laughter as
> > millions of illegal immigrants celebrate their good fortune will
> > reverberate until the early hours.......
>
> Why do you imagine it'll make any difference to illegal immigration?

He blames everything on illegal immigrants and believes everything
governments do leads to an influx of more fuzzy wuzzys. I would have
thought you'd have sussed that by now? They're out to get him...

FOUD

Ophelia

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May 13, 2010, 7:23:14 AM5/13/10
to

"Tim Watts" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hsfc07$8hm$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

I agree with all you have said, but.. Cameron is also a EU lover and will do
nothing to save us from it.

Cameron became a traitor when he reneged on his 'cast iron' promise.
--
--
https://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

Robin Fairbairns

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May 13, 2010, 8:15:51 AM5/13/10
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Paul Hyett <p...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On Wed, 12 May 2010 at 23:59:01, James Hammerton
> <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in uk.politics.id-cards :
>
>>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8677933.stm]
>>
>> "The parties agree to implement a full programme of measures to
>> reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties under the Labour
>> Government and roll back state intrusion.
>>
>>This will include:
>>[lots: we don't need to read it yet again]
>
> Nice list, but can they really be trusted to implement it?

probably not, down to the last letter. it will be useful to monitor
where they drop off, and what specious excuses they offer.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

AlanG

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May 13, 2010, 8:41:20 AM5/13/10
to
On Wed, 12 May 2010 23:30:02 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


UK.legal added


>See:
>
>http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm
>
>"Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their
>manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National
>Identity Register. We will announce in due course how this will be
>achieved. Applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we would
>advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further announcements.
>
>Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as
>such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within
>Europe. We will update you with further information as soon as we have it."
>

Back door ID cards
I have already asked tory canvassers what they are doing to remove the
'need' for ID cards. Couldn't get an answer from them. But here is an
instance to come into law where an ID card is mandatory for an adult
attempting to purchase alcohol.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100860_en_1

"4.�(1) The premises licence holder or club premises certificate
holder shall ensure that an age verification policy applies to the
premises in relation to the sale or supply of alcohol.

(2) The policy must require individuals who appear to the responsible
person to be under 18 years of age (or such older age as may be
specified in the policy) to produce on request, before being served
alcohol, identification bearing their photograph, date of birth and a
holographic mark."

And a comment from No2ID spokesman Guy Herbert
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/13/id-cards-database-cameron-clegg

William Black

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May 13, 2010, 9:12:48 AM5/13/10
to
On 13/05/10 00:41, The gods have made us mad wrote:

> However, what would happen if a Nationalist party arose which was led by
> a man of principle?, a man who couldn't be bought?. a man who sought
> only to promote the welfare of his race and country?

Like Mosley you mean?

Look what happened to him.

As soon as the loons in the extreme right-wing parties start to get some
power they start being nasty to minorities, and the British people then
promptly run a mile...

Paul Hyett

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May 13, 2010, 12:41:25 PM5/13/10
to
On Thu, 13 May 2010 at 02:26:34, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com>
wrote in uk.politics.id-cards :

>On Wed, 12 May 2010 17:01:22 -0700 (PDT),
> jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk <jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13 May, 00:33, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 13/05/10 00:12, The gods have made us mad wrote:
>>>
>>
>> [clip]
>>>
>>> The recent appalling BNP showing in the general election shows just how
>>> much people overtly far less extreme than yourself are treated by the
>>> eminently sensible British electorate.
>>
>> Unless I badly miscalculated the voting statistics (and it certainly
>> won't be reported!), it would seem that (other than the Tories) the
>> BNP took the largest increase in voter numbers.
>
>They fielded a lot more candidates this time so the amount of any
>increase in support isn't as easy to quantify as just quoting raw
>numbers.
>

Crunching the numbers - they put up candidates in 338 seats, and in
those, had an average share of 3.7%.

In 2005 they put up candidates in 119 seats, and in those, had an
average share of 4.2%.

Given that this time they wouldn't have been cherry-picking the seats
they thought most promising, it's hard to say whether this represents a
genuine decline in support though.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

James Hammerton

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May 15, 2010, 3:53:36 PM5/15/10
to

Urm, the police do have stop and search powers and have been using them
regularly for years.

James Hammerton

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May 15, 2010, 4:08:42 PM5/15/10
to

You're effectively saying you'd put up with a police state.

ISTM that for an id card system to be effective at dealing with illegal
immigration you'd need to give the police the power to randomly demand
the ID card and make it an offence to be out in public without the ID
card(*). That is a 'cure' that is worse than the original problem IMV.

Labour's scheme was about setting up a system of surveillance with a
large chunk of people's movements and activities being tracked via the
scheme. The bits of plastic were simply part of the infrastructure for
this surveillance.

As for the effectiveness of ID cards in tackling illegal immigration,
many European countries have compulsory cards and they don't seem to
have prevented illegal immigration surfacing there.

(*) the Identity Cards Act 2006 specifically ruled out making it an
offence for people not to carry the card.

James Hammerton

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May 15, 2010, 4:16:25 PM5/15/10
to
AlanG wrote:
> On Wed, 12 May 2010 23:30:02 +0100, James Hammerton
> <jah.u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> UK.legal added
>
>
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/53.htm
>>
>> "Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their
>> manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National
>> Identity Register. We will announce in due course how this will be
>> achieved. Applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we would
>> advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further announcements.
>>
>> Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as
>> such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within
>> Europe. We will update you with further information as soon as we have it."
>>
>
> Back door ID cards
> I have already asked tory canvassers what they are doing to remove the
> 'need' for ID cards. Couldn't get an answer from them. But here is an
> instance to come into law where an ID card is mandatory for an adult
> attempting to purchase alcohol.
>
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100860_en_1
>
> "4.�(1) The premises licence holder or club premises certificate

> holder shall ensure that an age verification policy applies to the
> premises in relation to the sale or supply of alcohol.
>
> (2) The policy must require individuals who appear to the responsible
> person to be under 18 years of age (or such older age as may be
> specified in the policy) to produce on request, before being served
> alcohol, identification bearing their photograph, date of birth and a
> holographic mark."
>
>
> And a comment from No2ID spokesman Guy Herbert
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/13/id-cards-database-cameron-clegg

ISTM getting the scheme scrapped is a major battle won, but there is a
wider war to be fought regarding the database state and privacy.

Dave J.

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May 21, 2010, 1:54:34 PM5/21/10
to
In MsgID<858dab...@mid.individual.net> on Sat, 15 May 2010 21:08:42

+0100, in uk.politics.id-cards, 'James Hammerton' wrote:

>The gods have made us mad wrote:

[..]

>> Personally, I'd put up with checkpoints on every street if it meant
>> eradicating the illegal immigrant pestilence that has taken root here.
>
>You're effectively saying you'd put up with a police state.

More than that, he was closer to saying he'd *welcome* one!

Apologies for re-awakening a week old thread but I only check this group
periodically.

Via my work, I come into contact with a couple of quite wide ranges of
'normal citizens' - Low-middle income semi computer literate, higher
income, computer illiterate wanting computerised offices, middle income
wanting a secure home network. Allsorts of folk with the only 'filter'
being a high enough IQ to understand the importance of cpu-based
technology.

Within each of those I've heard praise and recommendation for Polish and
other European workers. They've acquired a reputation for being harder
working and often more reasonable on their pay than your average British
plumber/plasterer/joiner/odd-job/bod. Also generally seen as honest and
reliable and quite a good bet if you're a little infirm.

So, in order to get rid of these workers the fellow you quote would
apparently be delighted to have every move spied upon, tracked and
effectively recorded for any big business that cares to do a quick grep or
any future government deparment that includes him in some category of
'special attention'.

He'd also welcome regular police enforcement of the carrying of the token
of this tracking.

[..] <Snip parallel points in different words>

>Labour's scheme was about setting up a system of surveillance with a
>large chunk of people's movements and activities being tracked via the
>scheme. The bits of plastic were simply part of the infrastructure for
>this surveillance.

Even right at the beginning 90 percent of anything you did that involved
any state organisation would have been fed into the database, a large
proportion of your financial comings and goings would also have been
ascertainable from the records. And that was only at the *start* before
edgeing it gradually further and further into our lives.

>As for the effectiveness of ID cards in tackling illegal immigration,
>many European countries have compulsory cards and they don't seem to
>have prevented illegal immigration surfacing there.

>(*) the Identity Cards Act 2006 specifically ruled out making it an
>offence for people not to carry the card.

One of the few ways I envy the American legal system is the constitutional
basis behind the laws they pass and the way the constitutional framework
allows courts to effectively cancel laws that go against it.

We have no such thing. You can happily say it's barred for it to ever be
made an offence to not carry the card and it may well be true on paper,
but there are already offences with which you can be charged if you fail
to provide a copper with reasonable proof of who you are, on demand. This
is most especially true if they can't find a record of the
name/address/dob combination you give if stopped.

So, empirically, it is *already* an offence to not carry an identity card.

The fact that there are other alternative ways to 'prove' (convince a
copper of the truth of) your data-base-number is beside the point; most
people would *choose* to carry either the card or a driving licence if
they habitually wander around the wrong areas with the wrong kind of car
or the wrong clothes or the wrong skin colour. Especially while inside the
wrong age-group.

Something I've noticed as I've passed thirty and then fourty is that one's
age makes quite a difference to the likelyhood of a
stop/search/identity-demand. This means that those who're old enough to
get up and do something about it, old enough to be bothered voting and old
enough to be listened to, are reasonably exempt from the persecution
dished out to the younger members of the community.

Dave J.

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