Re: UK Gun Crime Increasing- Brits Finding New Reasons To Shoot Each Other.
Chris Diesel
"Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o3ood59442ff301ak...@4ax.com...
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221421/Gun-crime-soars-alarming-trend-teenage-respect-shootings.html
>
> Gun crime in London has soared due to a new wave of teenage 'respect'
> shootings, the Metropolitan Police said today.
>
> Police have seized more than 1,000 guns in London so far this year.
>
> Met Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson linked rising gun crime in the
> capital with feuding gangs. Met figures show a 14 per cent rise in gun
> crime in London over four months during the summer.
>
> The weapons of choice for gangsters are the Russian-made 9mm Baikal
> pistol which is smuggled into the UK from illegal factories in
> Lithuania and the Mac-10 sub-machine pistol.
Posted on uk.politic.guns for British comment if any?
LesClaypool
Well, yeah.
Comment away.
Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
up WITH those same weapons.
William Black
No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
used anywhere in the UK
The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
manufacture in covert factories.
The Daily Mail is noted for its scare stories about such things, they
almost invariably turn out to be lies.
The last year I can find figures for is 2007-8 and there were some 52
homicides and about 400 people seriously injured in crimes involving
firearms in the UK, of which about 15% occured in London.
A 14% increase in three months indicates that there was one extra
fatality and about eight more people shot, which, I believe, is
roughly equivalent to a quiet Saturday night in Baltimore...
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
William Black
> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
> up WITH those same weapons.
>
Crime in the UK is going down.
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Chris Diesel wrote:
>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:o3ood59442ff301ak...@4ax.com...
>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221421/Gun-crime-soars-alarming-trend-teenage-respect-shootings.html
>>>
>>> Gun crime in London has soared due to a new wave of teenage 'respect'
>>> shootings, the Metropolitan Police said today.
>>>
>>> Police have seized more than 1,000 guns in London so far this year.
>>>
>>> Met Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson linked rising gun crime in the
>>> capital with feuding gangs. Met figures show a 14 per cent rise in gun
>>> crime in London over four months during the summer.
>>>
>>> The weapons of choice for gangsters are the Russian-made 9mm Baikal
>>> pistol which is smuggled into the UK from illegal factories in
>>> Lithuania and the Mac-10 sub-machine pistol.
>>
>> Posted on uk.politic.guns for British comment if any?
>>
>
>No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
>used anywhere in the UK
Perhaps you should look at the link supplied in this post.
>The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>manufacture in covert factories.
Why isn't it suitable?
>The Daily Mail is noted for its scare stories about such things, they
>almost invariably turn out to be lies.
Whistling past the graveyard.
>The last year I can find figures for is 2007-8 and there were some 52
>homicides and about 400 people seriously injured in crimes involving
>firearms in the UK, of which about 15% occured in London.
>
>A 14% increase in three months indicates that there was one extra
>fatality and about eight more people shot, which, I believe, is
>roughly equivalent to a quiet Saturday night in Baltimore...
The Met has seized more than 1,000 guns as �extreme� youth violence in
London soars.
New figures show officers confiscated numerous handguns, shotguns and
sub-machine guns in the first seven months of the year.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Teenage_gun_crime_fuelled_by_punishment_shootings&in_article_id=754454&in_page_id=34
It was quite simple to find mention of sub-machine guns with a few
seconds of looking.
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>LesClaypool wrote:
>
>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
>> up WITH those same weapons.
>>
>
>Crime in the UK is going down.
of course it is.
William Black
> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris Diesel wrote:
>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:o3ood59442ff301ak...@4ax.com...
>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221421/Gun-crime-soars-alarming-trend-teenage-respect-shootings.html
>>>>
>>>> Gun crime in London has soared due to a new wave of teenage 'respect'
>>>> shootings, the Metropolitan Police said today.
>>>>
>>>> Police have seized more than 1,000 guns in London so far this year.
>>>>
>>>> Met Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson linked rising gun crime in the
>>>> capital with feuding gangs. Met figures show a 14 per cent rise in gun
>>>> crime in London over four months during the summer.
>>>>
>>>> The weapons of choice for gangsters are the Russian-made 9mm Baikal
>>>> pistol which is smuggled into the UK from illegal factories in
>>>> Lithuania and the Mac-10 sub-machine pistol.
>>> Posted on uk.politic.guns for British comment if any?
>>>
>> No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
>> used anywhere in the UK
>
> Perhaps you should look at the link supplied in this post.
Still no mentions of the rattle of automatic gunfire in the streets of
London.
Just the usual Met Police twaddle when they're under a lot of political
pressure.
>
>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>> manufacture in covert factories.
>
> Why isn't it suitable?
Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>> The Daily Mail is noted for its scare stories about such things, they
>> almost invariably turn out to be lies.
>
> Whistling past the graveyard.
The Daily Mail does a lot of that sort of thing.
>
>
>> The last year I can find figures for is 2007-8 and there were some 52
>> homicides and about 400 people seriously injured in crimes involving
>> firearms in the UK, of which about 15% occured in London.
>>
>> A 14% increase in three months indicates that there was one extra
>> fatality and about eight more people shot, which, I believe, is
>> roughly equivalent to a quiet Saturday night in Baltimore...
>
> The Met has seized more than 1,000 guns as �extreme� youth violence in
> London soars.
Read it carefully.
No dead, no injured and 'incidents' totalling 101 in a month.
That's just over 1200 a year.
Or about 2% up on the figures I gave...
Which is a small enough change to be statistically irrelevant.
It's a scare story.
>
> New figures show officers confiscated numerous handguns, shotguns and
> sub-machine guns in the first seven months of the year.
> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Teenage_gun_crime_fuelled_by_punishment_shootings&in_article_id=754454&in_page_id=34
>
> It was quite simple to find mention of sub-machine guns with a few
> seconds of looking.
William Black
Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
gets reported in the papers.
It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
If you have alternative figures you should quote them.
Otherwise shut up.
SaPeIsMa
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hbita7$g2m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
> No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being used
> anywhere in the UK
>
> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
> manufacture in covert factories.
>
The Baikal was the official sidearm of the Soviet, Russia, and a few other
countries over a period of 52 years
What makes you think it's not a suitable weapon for street gangs or
manufacture in covert factories
There were a whole bunch made by hand in the Pakistani tribal areas
By the way, I own 14 of them.
I often carry one.
They're solid, reliable and accurate and can take a lot of abuse before they
fail
SaPeIsMa
> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
>>>> up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>
>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>
>> of course it is.
>
>
> Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
> gets reported in the papers.
>
> It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if they
> were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
>
> If you have alternative figures you should quote them.
>
> Otherwise shut up.
>
You sure are arrogant and snotty
What makes you think you are qualified to be a Usenet censor ?
SaPeIsMa
>>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>>> manufacture in covert factories.
>>
>> Why isn't it suitable?
>
> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>
HUH ?
Makarov = precision light trigger ?
= tight fit bushing ?
What on earth are you babbling about ?
A real Makarov has a good solid double-action triger and a decent
single-action trigger
Also a real Makarov has no "bushing"
Scout
> LesClaypool wrote:
>
>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates
>> go up WITH those same weapons.
>>
>
> Crime in the UK is going down.
Sure it is........
"In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of
recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more
than two every minute."
"Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of
this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle
the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on
crime and anti-social behaviour. "
"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent
increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since
Labour came to power."
"The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is
higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada,
Australia and South Africa."
"Opposition leaders said the disclosures were a "damning indictment" of the
Government's failure to tackle deep-rooted social problems."
Damn, blaming it on "social problems"? That's pretty radical since we all
know it's about the Evil Mind Control Rays(tm) emitted by guns, particularly
handguns.
William Black
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:hbita7$g2m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>
>> No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
>> used anywhere in the UK
>>
>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>
>
> The Baikal was the official sidearm of the Soviet, Russia, and a few
> other countries over a period of 52 years
Ah.
Obviously we have a disagreement about terminology.
In the UK the service pistol is almost invariably refered to as the
'Makrov', the 'Bikal' is the target version.
The Daily Mail is a British newspaper quoting UK sources.
Actually you raise an interesting point.
Chances are that the whole thing is a lie and they're using US technical
sources for the technical terms.
William Black
No sources there either.
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Diesel wrote:
>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:o3ood59442ff301ak...@4ax.com...
>>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221421/Gun-crime-soars-alarming-trend-teenage-respect-shootings.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Gun crime in London has soared due to a new wave of teenage 'respect'
>>>>> shootings, the Metropolitan Police said today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Police have seized more than 1,000 guns in London so far this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Met Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson linked rising gun crime in the
>>>>> capital with feuding gangs. Met figures show a 14 per cent rise in gun
>>>>> crime in London over four months during the summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The weapons of choice for gangsters are the Russian-made 9mm Baikal
>>>>> pistol which is smuggled into the UK from illegal factories in
>>>>> Lithuania and the Mac-10 sub-machine pistol.
>>>> Posted on uk.politic.guns for British comment if any?
>>>>
>>> No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
>>> used anywhere in the UK
>>
>> Perhaps you should look at the link supplied in this post.
>
>Still no mentions of the rattle of automatic gunfire in the streets of
>London.
Of course not. They just get them to put over their mantles.
>Just the usual Met Police twaddle when they're under a lot of political
>pressure.
Ah, so now it's the paper and the Met Police that don't tell the
truth. [chuckle]
>>
>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>>> manufacture in covert factories.
>>
>> Why isn't it suitable?
>
>Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
That's a list of features. Why isn't it suitable?
>>> The Daily Mail is noted for its scare stories about such things, they
>>> almost invariably turn out to be lies.
>>
>> Whistling past the graveyard.
>
>The Daily Mail does a lot of that sort of thing.
As I said, a quick search turned up other sources as well.
>>> The last year I can find figures for is 2007-8 and there were some 52
>>> homicides and about 400 people seriously injured in crimes involving
>>> firearms in the UK, of which about 15% occured in London.
>>>
>>> A 14% increase in three months indicates that there was one extra
>>> fatality and about eight more people shot, which, I believe, is
>>> roughly equivalent to a quiet Saturday night in Baltimore...
>>
>> The Met has seized more than 1,000 guns as �extreme� youth violence in
>> London soars.
>
>Read it carefully.
>
>No dead, no injured and 'incidents' totalling 101 in a month.
>
>That's just over 1200 a year.
>
>Or about 2% up on the figures I gave...
So were you lying when you said crime was down? Or are you admitting
that crime involving guns is up?
We're not talking about Balitimore. We're not comparing the UK with
anywhere else. We're talking about a rise in "gun crime" in the UK.
>Which is a small enough change to be statistically irrelevant.
>
>It's a scare story.
I'll bet it is.
>
>>
>> New figures show officers confiscated numerous handguns, shotguns and
>> sub-machine guns in the first seven months of the year.
>> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Teenage_gun_crime_fuelled_by_punishment_shootings&in_article_id=754454&in_page_id=34
>>
>> It was quite simple to find mention of sub-machine guns with a few
>> seconds of looking.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Another "scare story."
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
>>>> up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>
>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>
>> of course it is.
>
>
>Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
>gets reported in the papers.
It's increasing in the UK.
>It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
>they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
As it would be trivial for you to show that the figures quoted by the
media "scare stories" are false. Please do so.
>Otherwise shut up.
Sorry, Bill. We still have freedom of speech here.
William Black
>> Still no mentions of the rattle of automatic gunfire in the streets of
>> London.
>
> Of course not. They just get them to put over their mantles.
No pictures of them either.
Although I imagine they found one or two, they often get turned up,
but they're usually replicas.
>> Just the usual Met Police twaddle when they're under a lot of political
>> pressure.
>
> Ah, so now it's the paper and the Met Police that don't tell the
> truth. [chuckle]
So you trust what your local police tell you?
How quaint...
>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>>>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>>>> manufacture in covert factories.
>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>
> That's a list of features. Why isn't it suitable?
Because the features make it a poor combat pistol.
The straight military version is better suited to the task described and
is cheaper and more robust.
We're not talking about people who know a lot about guns.
>>
>> No dead, no injured and 'incidents' totalling 101 in a month.
>>
>> That's just over 1200 a year.
>>
>> Or about 2% up on the figures I gave...
>
> So were you lying when you said crime was down? Or are you admitting
> that crime involving guns is up?
I'm saying the change is statically insignificant.
> We're not talking about Balitimore. We're not comparing the UK with
> anywhere else. We're talking about a rise in "gun crime" in the UK.
Look at how it's reported.
Most 'gun crime' recorded in the UK is the police responding to
incidents where a gun is reported and it turning out either not to be a
gun at all or kids playing with air weapons.
>>> New figures show officers confiscated numerous handguns, shotguns and
>>> sub-machine guns in the first seven months of the year.
>>> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Teenage_gun_crime_fuelled_by_punishment_shootings&in_article_id=754454&in_page_id=34
>>>
>>> It was quite simple to find mention of sub-machine guns with a few
>>> seconds of looking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Another "scare story."
Check out who exactly owns 'Metro'.
William Black
> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
>>>>> up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>>
>>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>> of course it is.
>>
>> Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
>> gets reported in the papers.
>
> It's increasing in the UK.
>
>> It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
>> they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
>
> As it would be trivial for you to show that the figures quoted by the
> media "scare stories" are false. Please do so.
Sorry son, you can't prove a negative.
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Still no mentions of the rattle of automatic gunfire in the streets of
>>> London.
>>
>> Of course not. They just get them to put over their mantles.
>
>No pictures of them either.
>
>Although I imagine they found one or two, they often get turned up,
>but they're usually replicas.
They didn't say anything about replicas. Since that's such a big think
in the UK, you'd think they'd mention that.
They didn't. So they're probably NOT replicas.
>>> Just the usual Met Police twaddle when they're under a lot of political
>>> pressure.
>>
>> Ah, so now it's the paper and the Met Police that don't tell the
>> truth. [chuckle]
>
>So you trust what your local police tell you?
>
>How quaint...
I've heard this story before- the media and the police are all wrong,
only Bill has the correct information. [chuckle]
>>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>>>>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>>>>> manufacture in covert factories.
>>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>>
>> That's a list of features. Why isn't it suitable?
>
>Because the features make it a poor combat pistol.
ROFLMAO. You think criminals even KNOW what a bushing is? That's
ludicrous.
>The straight military version is better suited to the task described and
>is cheaper and more robust.
Why don't you mention that to them? I'm sure they'll appreciate your
expertise.
>We're not talking about people who know a lot about guns.
Ah, so they don't know a lot about guns? So then how do you expect
them to choose the "right" weapon for their criminal activities?
You tripped yourself up there, Bill.
>>>
>>> No dead, no injured and 'incidents' totalling 101 in a month.
>>>
>>> That's just over 1200 a year.
>>>
>>> Or about 2% up on the figures I gave...
>>
>> So were you lying when you said crime was down? Or are you admitting
>> that crime involving guns is up?
>
>I'm saying the change is statically insignificant.
I'm saying that reports indicate otherwise.
>> We're not talking about Balitimore. We're not comparing the UK with
>> anywhere else. We're talking about a rise in "gun crime" in the UK.
>
>Look at how it's reported.
>
>Most 'gun crime' recorded in the UK is the police responding to
>incidents where a gun is reported and it turning out either not to be a
>gun at all or kids playing with air weapons.
Except in this instance.
>>>> New figures show officers confiscated numerous handguns, shotguns and
>>>> sub-machine guns in the first seven months of the year.
>>>> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Teenage_gun_crime_fuelled_by_punishment_shootings&in_article_id=754454&in_page_id=34
>>>>
>>>> It was quite simple to find mention of sub-machine guns with a few
>>>> seconds of looking.
>>
>> Another "scare story."
>
>Check out who exactly owns 'Metro'.
Explain how that makes the story inaccurate.
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates go
>>>>>> up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>>> of course it is.
>>>
>>> Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
>>> gets reported in the papers.
>>
>> It's increasing in the UK.
>>
>>> It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
>>> they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
>>
>> As it would be trivial for you to show that the figures quoted by the
>> media "scare stories" are false. Please do so.
>
>Sorry son, you can't prove a negative.
Of course you can't.
Demon Buddha
> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs
How do you reason?
Demon Buddha
>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>
>> Why isn't it suitable?
>
> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
You ha ve not explained why these render the pistols unsuitable. I
don't see these factor as having anything to do with anything.
Demon Buddha
SaPeIsMa
> SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:hbj1m1$ids$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates
>>>>>> go up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>>>
>>>> of course it is.
>>>
>>>
>>> Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
>>> gets reported in the papers.
>>>
>>> It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
>>> they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
>>>
>>> If you have alternative figures you should quote them.
>>>
>>> Otherwise shut up.
>>>
>>
>> You sure are arrogant and snotty
>> What makes you think you are qualified to be a Usenet censor ?
>>
>
> No sources there either.
>
>
Sources for what, moron ?
SaPeIsMa
> SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:hbita7$g2m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>>
>>> No reports in the media here about any fully automatic weapons being
>>> used anywhere in the UK
>>>
>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with adjustable
>>> sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street gangs or
>>> manufacture in covert factories.
>>>
>>
>> The Baikal was the official sidearm of the Soviet, Russia, and a few
>> other countries over a period of 52 years
>
> Ah.
>
> Obviously we have a disagreement about terminology.
>
> In the UK the service pistol is almost invariably refered to as the
> 'Makrov', the 'Bikal' is the target version.
>
No problem with the termiology except for your ignorance
Baikal is the now "commercial entity" that has always manufactured the
Makarov in Russia.
The Makarov is named after the designer Nikolay Fyodorovich Makarov
The commercial Makarov only differs with the addition of an adjustable rear
sight
This does NOT in any way make the Makarov a "target pistol"
The Makarov in it's original design was built in ONLY 4 countries. Russia,
China, East Germany and Bulgaria
Any other pistol refered to as a "Makarov" is NOT a REAL MAkarov, and the
name is only used by the ignorant because the use the 9mm Makarov round.
These include such as the FEG PA and SMC (Hungary), CZ-82,83 CzekoSlovakia,
P64 (Poland), etc.
> The Daily Mail is a British newspaper quoting UK sources.
>
> Actually you raise an interesting point.
>
> Chances are that the whole thing is a lie and they're using US technical
> sources for the technical terms.
>
More like an ignorant reporter, not doing proper due diligence to educate
himself.
SaPeIsMa
> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>>> In talk.politics.guns William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> LesClaypool wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently, the more laws you subjects make to take and keep weapons
>>>>>> away from the law abiding people, the higher the violent crime rates
>>>>>> go up WITH those same weapons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Crime in the UK is going down.
>>>> of course it is.
>>>
>>> Firearms crime is extremly rare and a 'hot button issue' in the UK and
>>> gets reported in the papers.
>>
>> It's increasing in the UK.
>>
>>> It would be a trivial matter to disprove the government's figures if
>>> they were false, and a resignation matter for the minister responsible.
>>
>> As it would be trivial for you to show that the figures quoted by the
>> media "scare stories" are false. Please do so.
>
> Sorry son, you can't prove a negative.
>
But you can raise enough questions to make the claims doubtful, thus forcing
them to PROVE their claims with REAL VERIFIABLE data.
William Black
I think I've done that.
The Daily Mail is notorious for its scare stories that lead nowhere.
William Black
Too fragile.
They'd be better off with the service pistol, which seems to be
reasonably freely available.
William Black
Oh dear, if you resort to insults I will have to treat you with the
contempt you deserve.
Now shit-for-brains' settle down and read carefully.
The people telling me I'm wrong have not yet produced evidence to prove
their accusation that the government of the United Kingdom has
systematically lied about crime figures.
Detailed crime figures are published every year for the UK and so far
nobody with an IQ above room temperature has even bothered to dispute them.
By the way, they're higher than 'reported crime' figures that are
collected by the police...
William Black
>> The Daily Mail is a British newspaper quoting UK sources.
>>
>> Actually you raise an interesting point.
>>
>> Chances are that the whole thing is a lie and they're using US
>> technical sources for the technical terms.
>>
>
> More like an ignorant reporter, not doing proper due diligence to
> educate himself.
>
It's the Daily Mail.
People expect them to lie.
Demon Buddha
> Demon Buddha wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>>>>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>>>>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>>>
>>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>>>
>>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>>
>> You ha ve not explained why these render the pistols unsuitable.
>> I don't see these factor as having anything to do with anything.
>
> Too fragile.
No more so than any other, for all intents and purposes. You yourself
wrote that most of these bozos barely know which end the bullet comes
out. How would they be able to make such a distinction? I don't think
they know enough to care. They want something that goes bang with they
pull the trigger - something called "a nine".
>
> They'd be better off with the service pistol, which seems to be
> reasonably freely available.
Well, I carry a heavily tweaked 686 with target sights. It is about as
robust as any pistol you care to name and more so than many. But as you
point out, most gang bangers and other such clowns don't have the sense
to know a superior weapon from crap. Lucky me.
Scout
Just wondering if you are going to reply to this Mr. Black
Klaus Schadenfreude
wrote:
>Demon Buddha wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>>>>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>>>>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>>>
>>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>>>
>>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>>
>> You ha ve not explained why these render the pistols unsuitable. I
>> don't see these factor as having anything to do with anything.
>
>Too fragile.
LOL
>They'd be better off with the service pistol, which seems to be
>reasonably freely available.
This is the most stupid line of reasoning I've seen in ages.
Bama Brian
> Demon Buddha wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>>>>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>>>>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>>>
>>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>>>
>>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>>
>> You ha ve not explained why these render the pistols unsuitable.
>> I don't see these factor as having anything to do with anything.
>
> Too fragile.
>
> They'd be better off with the service pistol, which seems to be
> reasonably freely available.
Go here: http://www.baikalinc.ru/en
And here: http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/266.html
Adjustable sights? The rear sight can be drifted left or right with a
hammer and a punch. Not fragile at all. The Baikal 442 is said to have
a click-adjustable windage rear sight, but I've not seen one. This
version might be your so-called "sporting" model.
See this: http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/15.html
Tight bushing? There is NO bushing. The pistol uses a fixed barrel and
is a true blow-back design, unlike pistols such as a Browning Hi Power
in 9 mm, where the barrel must unlock and tip down during recoil.
Precision light trigger? Nonsense. The pistol is double-action. The
trigger must overcome considerable spring tension order to pull back the
hammer for the first round. This is done with a very long trigger pull
to create the necessary leverage.
BTW, William, you do know that it was Nikolai Makarov who designed the
gun back in the 40's, based on the German Walther PP? The company that
builds it, beginning in the 90's, is called Baikal. There are companies
in other countries that build the Makarov pistol as well, but none of
these would be called a Baikal.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
William Black
Read to the end:
"...figures compiled by the Tories...".
They're the opposition.
Opposition political parties do not release crime figures.
Oh, and look, it's in the Daily Mail...
Look here.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/crime-statistics/
Violent crime is down 6% in the last full year for which we have figures.
Scout
So, you are asserting they are LYING???
> Opposition political parties do not release crime figures.
Nope, but they certainly can examine the reports and give their analysis of
them.
Which they did. And all I see from you is hand waving that they are the
opposition, with the implication that they aren't to be believed.
> Oh, and look, it's in the Daily Mail...
So? I suppose it's not your contention that everything that shows up in the
Daily Mail is a lie?
That's why I included the source from another news paper so that you
couldn't simply wave your hands and say "Daily News" and ignore it. Doesn't
look like it worked. Since you simply snipped out the link and proceeded to
do so.
> Look here.
>
> http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/crime-statistics/
>
> Violent crime is down 6% in the last full year for which we have
> figures.
Let's see, over 10 years it's increased by 77% but that's ok because in the
last year it went down by 6%
Still looks like a 71% increase over the last 11 years.
I will simply note that you could neither refute, nor confront the
information presented to you. You could only dismiss it out of hand and
ignore the long term trend reported.
SaPeIsMa
LOL
Stupid as well as arrogant and snotty
> Now shit-for-brains' settle down and read carefully.
>
Looking in the mirror again ?
> The people telling me I'm wrong have not yet produced evidence to prove
> their accusation that the government of the United Kingdom has
> systematically lied about crime figures.
>
LOL
Have YOU produced any data to support YOUR original claim ?
When you do, you'll be in a position to ask for counter evidence, MAYBE..
> Detailed crime figures are published every year for the UK and so far
> nobody with an IQ above room temperature has even bothered to dispute
> them.
>
Well, naturally
You just gobbled them up and belived them.
But there is no need to denigrate yourself for us
We already know about your lack of IQ points.
> By the way, they're higher than 'reported crime' figures that are
> collected by the police...
>
And yet
http://blogs.news.sky.com/frontlineblog/Post:46aadb8e-0024-4de8-b0fd-db1f81081625
Knife Crime: Fudging The Figures
And something connected
http://www.kc3.com/CCDW_Stats/what_you_dont_know.htm
What Gun Controllers Don't Want You to Know
And more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7462619.stm
Public 'lack crime figures faith'
And more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/25/politics.ukguns
Crime rate falling ever faster,
but drug and gun offences increase.
Next time you insult someone, make sure you've got facts instead of manure
on your side, shit-for-brains.
SaPeIsMa
> Demon Buddha wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Baikal is a sports version of the Makrov, complete with
>>>>> adjustable sights. Not a weapon suitable for either use by street
>>>>> gangs or manufacture in covert factories.
>>>>
>>>> Why isn't it suitable?
>>>
>>> Adjustable sights, precision light trigger, tight fit bushing.
>>
>> You ha ve not explained why these render the pistols unsuitable. I
>> don't see these factor as having anything to do with anything.
>
> Too fragile.
>
Nit-picking
The adjustable sighs are perfectly OK with concealed carry
I have a Baikal slide which had the factory adjustable sights replaced with
Novak Tritium sights
There was a gunsmith who did such conversions for a nominal fee
Never really made any difference whether I used that or the original Baikal
sights on my high-cap Makarovs.
> They'd be better off with the service pistol, which seems to be
> reasonably freely available.
>
For most users, the difference would not be noticeable.
SaPeIsMa
"Bama Brian" <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hbn7gk$2k6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Here is a picture of a Baikal (commercial slide) with the adjustable rear
sight
http://www.makarov.com/graphics/ebay/10rdMakWalnut.jpg