Vegetarianism and B12 deficiency (was Re: Organic GE)

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Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/5/98
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In article <8LdP7HA3...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| The difference is that the vast majority of veggies condemn the violent
| >| ones. The same, I suspect, can't be said of the BNP.
| >
| >Oh I'm sure they too pay lip-service to the public by condemning the
activities
| >of Combat-14, whilst adding qualifiers to their statements that they
| >'understand' why they carry out these acts and similar disingenuous
waffle. Not
| >really much different from the ALF acting as an apologist mouth-piece for
| >the latest attack on Muslim culture whilst stating that they 'understand'
| >why these attacks have been carried out.
| >
| > BNP -> ALF
|
| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
| is patently not the case.

I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
are veggies.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/5/98
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>--
> CamARAB
> http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
it is an adjective.
those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.

the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
pograms.

they are backed by the likes of the daily telegraph, right wing tory
idiots etc, divide and rule remember!

those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.
the bnp have to realise that playing the war games of the mainstream
system benefits no-one eccept the elite.

i'm trying to elucidate here, its not a game or sport, the bnp really
frighten people. they try and vampire people's energy.
the alf free sentient beings from extreme fear and torture.

they are the opposite basically!

i'm not interested in accusations of insanity saying all this, i'm
just breaking through the 'game' to reveal the reality. i know what
its like on the street, i know what its like to be vampired. i now
have a web connection and can fight back right into your comfortable
homes tory twats.

take it easy

jim

mike

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Oct 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/5/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>are veggies.
>
Many of whom are vegans. So what?

Statistically, most child molesters and murderers are quite probably
meat eaters.

And your point is...?

Mike
--
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"the finest & best designed independent site in Britain" Dly Telegraph
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to e-mail me, it's : m i k e (*at*) u r b a n 7 5 (*dot*) c o m

Richard Vialls

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>| > BNP -> ALF


>|
>| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
>| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
>| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
>| is patently not the case.
>

>I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>are veggies.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
members of the ALF, as you were implying.

Richard Vialls (please replace nospam with demon for email & WWW)
Black Cat Electronics - contract electronics design
Bodrwyn, Cerrigceinwen, Bodorgan, Phone: +44(0)1407 720717
Anglesey, LL62 5EF, UK. Email: rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk
Web: http://www.blakcat.nospam.co.uk

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <qe5WmCAa...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >

| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >are veggies.
| >

| Many of whom are vegans. So what?
|
| Statistically, most child molesters and murderers are quite probably
| meat eaters.

However, eating meat is not a key credential to child molesting, being a
veggie IS a key credential to being in ALF.

|
| And your point is...?

I'd have thought it obvious. One is a key credential, the other is a statistical
co-incidence.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <6vb6co$66u$1...@news.gn.apc.org>, mong...@gn.apc.org wrote:


|
| the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
| it is an adjective.
| those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.

Oh really? So who was it who released all those mink, boasted of having
firebombed halal butchers in their publications? The Animal Liberation
Front are very real and their Scottish branch even have a web site.

|
| the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
| pograms.

Nope ..that's 'benefit from having neigbour choice forced on them through
violent means'

..and they ALF are fascist who believe the community would benefit from
having lifestyle choices forced on them through violence.

Not much different, really..


| those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
| catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.

They are fascists. They attack ethnic minorities because they don't like
their cultural practises.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <PZhj$AALVc...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|

| >| > BNP -> ALF
| >|
| >| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
| >| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
| >| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
| >| is patently not the case.
| >

| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >are veggies.
|

| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| members of the ALF, as you were implying.

The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?

I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:

>achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:

>> the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
>> it is an adjective.

>Horseshit. The ALF (Animal Liberation Front) is an active organisation
>in the UK. In recent years members have firebombed stores, beaten up
>scientists, attached bombs to vehicles and released mink into the
>environment. And this is a small sample of the stupidity that they
>represent.

In the name of clarity...
you ain't read wot i wrote geezaz.
it is autonomus individuals who take direct action to relieve animal
suffering. ie they are the 'frontline' of direct action. obviously i'm
not saying that such actions don't exist. what i am saying is that it
is not a linked organisation with heirarchies etc. unlike the BNP.
Actions are listed on the ALF website yes, but the alf website does
not 'control' actions.

i saw a picture of two people holding releasesd chickens on the animal
rights resourses website. the compassion in their eyes is so deep.

or do we believe the reverends and colonals spouting mainstream
nonsense?


jim


>--


Dead Mangled Pigeon

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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achildofmuvernature wrote in message <6vctqg$2vn$1...@news.gn.apc.org>...

[crunch]

>i saw a picture of two people holding releasesd chickens on the animal
>rights resourses website. the compassion in their eyes is so deep.
>


Pass the sick-bag, Alice.


JPC

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall.com>,
The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com says...

>What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>
>I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.

What about the snails eating?


Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <6vctqg$2vn$1...@news.gn.apc.org>, mong...@gn.apc.org wrote:

| fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
|
| >achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
|
| >> the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
| >> it is an adjective.
|
| >Horseshit. The ALF (Animal Liberation Front) is an active organisation
| >in the UK. In recent years members have firebombed stores, beaten up
| >scientists, attached bombs to vehicles and released mink into the
| >environment. And this is a small sample of the stupidity that they
| >represent.
|
| In the name of clarity...
| you ain't read wot i wrote geezaz.

Oh but he did, as did I.

| it is autonomus individuals who take direct action to relieve animal
| suffering. ie they are the 'frontline' of direct action.

Just like Combat18.

| obviously i'm
| not saying that such actions don't exist. what i am saying is that it
| is not a linked organisation with heirarchies etc. unlike the BNP.

Of course it is...unless your denying there's a link between the BNP and
its 'frontline' - as you put it - Combat18?



| Actions are listed on the ALF website yes, but the alf website does
| not 'control' actions.

So? It's no different from BNP/Combat 18 - its just a 'front' for its
members but tries to pretend it has no connection.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <6vcv7m$td$1...@netserv.univ-lille1.fr>, chad...@univ-lille3.fr
(JPC) wrote:

Meat-eating. Frogs legs too. And foie gras.

Or are you asking how many snails - veggies- are members of ALF?

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Richard Vialls

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF


>| >are veggies.
>|
>| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>
>The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.

>What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>
>I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.

Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.

If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
of one sort or another. I'd suggest that the latter proportion is
unlikely to be any smaller (and I'd predict probably larger).

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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>[crunch]


>Pass the sick-bag, Alice.


really, ver very cool eyess. compassion is an amazing thing.


achildofmuvernature

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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your really on one about the 'ALF' arn't you rev.
well all i know is that from my personal experience,
being tortured is no fun for me at all, whether or not some mad
scientist thinks it beneficial.

i have felt extreme anger, not surprisingly towards these doctors and
scientists that proclaim some truth or other.

i channel that anger, say here and now, into trying to break through
to those who's life experiences give then no personnel experience of
torture, rascism, alienation etc etc.

again the reality is that people relieving animal suffering (done by
those who want to make money) on the frontline are probably doing
'gods work', accumulationg good karma, wheras, the bnp, combat 18 or
whatever are rascist drongos.

sorry if this isn't quite what you read in the mail, but then its good
sometimes to turn all your perceptions on their heads.

again read the bible reverend. upturn those tables in the temple!

jim


Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <2E39YBAR...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >| >are veggies.
| >|
| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
| >
| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
| >
| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
|
| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.

It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
the few who align themselves with Combat 18?

|
| If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
| of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
| comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
| of one sort or another.

Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
and mob violence than meat eaters. Now all we need to know is why.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Richard Vialls

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>| >| >are veggies.
>| >|
>| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>| >
>| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>| >
>| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
>|
>| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
>| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
>
>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?

I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP. As such, you are just
suggesting what you want to believe and expecting me to argue against
it. You have absolutely no case that vegetarians are more likely to be
supporters of the ALF than omnivores are to be supporters of the BNP.

Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores. To support a
violent act because you believe it will make the world a better place is
entirely different from actually perpetrating that act. Or would you
class everyone who supports military action in places like Kosovo as
violent?

>| If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
>| of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
>| comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
>| of one sort or another.
>
>Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
>that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>and mob violence than meat eaters.

You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.

> Now all we need to know is why.

What I want to know is why you are so keen to paint vegetarians (who
are, in my experience, more likely to be pacifists than omnivores) as
violent extremists. What is your motive for this? What have you really
got against vegetarians - or are you just deliberately trolling?

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <h2HYUJAS...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of
the ALF
| >| >| >are veggies.
| >| >|
| >| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| >| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
| >| >
| >| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
| >| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
| >| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
| >| >
| >| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
| >|
| >| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
| >| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
| >
| >It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
| >and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
| >to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
| >the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
|
| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.

Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.

But, of course, there is one key difference between the two, diet has nothing
to do with those joining Combat 18.


| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.

Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.


| >
| >Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
| >It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
|
| You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.

I have indeed! You don't like it, but that is your problem, not mine.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:

hypothetical nonsense

>But, of course, there is one key difference between the two, diet has nothing
>to do with those joining Combat 18.


>| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.

>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.

yes yes bbc news, blar blar blar...what about what the government gets
up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
can make money. condemm this please reverend.

You appear to be arguing that
>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.


quite 'reverend'. shall we start a debate about government sponsered
violence?
people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
vivisectors do.
you get the occasional nutter, and police stitch up, and deluded
reverend for that matter. hello are you in there reverend nurse?

>| >
>| >Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
>| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>| >It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
>|
>| You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.

>I have indeed! You don't like it, but that is your pr

babylon is falling

jim.

mike

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>Or are you asking how many snails - veggies- are members of ALF?

Fascinating stuff. So the tiny, *tiny* amount of fanatics who make up
the fringe direct action group that calls itself the ALF are probably
veggie. And you think that using this microscopic sample group you can
draw conclusions as to the leanings of all veggies - even those who
choose their diet for health reasons?

Very scientific.

But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?

I bet you wouldn't find many vegans or veggies amongst their ranks, so
that leaves your argument... where exactly?

mike

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent


>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?

You tell me. But as it's almost certain that more violent acts/murders
are committed by meat-eaters than vegetarians, your 'argument' is
woefully lacking.

>It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism

>and mob violence than meat eaters. Now all we need to know is why.

You really believe this?! Based on what data? How many murders have been
committed by vegetarians in the UK recently? How many Saturday night
punch ups involve veggies? Are the football hooligan 'firms' exclusive
staffed by Linda McCartney-munchin' veggies too? (Strange then that
veggie food is almost non-existent on the terraces - do they bring their
own veggie sarnies to the matches then?)

Strange how not so long ago, veggies were being portrayed as weedy and
anaemic, and now suddenly they're all wild hoodlums....

Do I detect the airing of tedious personal prejudices here?

mike

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Oct 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/6/98
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In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18


>is estimated at around the 100 mark.

Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
Chelsea home crowd alone.

And do you *really* think that your average neo-Nazi racist is less
violent and less likely yo get involved in a punch up that an ALF
member?

Remarkable.

andy t

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
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In article <6vb6co$66u$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
mong...@gn.apc.org (achildofmuvernature) wrote:


>the alf doesn't actually exist

bollocks.

it means animal liberation frontline.
>it is an adjective.

Go learn your grammar. it is certainly NOT an adjective. (It also means
Animla Liberation Front.

>those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.

It is an organisation, with spokespersons etc.

>
>the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
>pograms.
>

>they are backed by the likes of the daily telegraph, right wing tory
>idiots etc, divide and rule remember!
>

>those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
>catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.

>the bnp have to realise that playing the war games of the mainstream
>system benefits no-one eccept the elite.


The ALF have to realise that bombings, beatings and terror tactics will
earn them the respect they deserve. none.
The thuggery displayed by the ALF is most certainly akin to that displayed
by the BNP. Brutish physical vilence against people (and their property)
with whom they disagree .

>
>i'm trying to elucidate here,

Halucinate, more likely...with some success to.

its not a game or sport, the bnp really
>frighten people.


So do the ALF with their balaclavas and terror tactics.

they try and vampire people's energy.
>the alf free sentient beings from extreme fear and torture.

and beat up scientists, vandalise property and commit criminal acts.


>
>they are the opposite basically!

Bollox. they are very similar in mindless, intolerance and attitude, not to
mention lack of realistic argument


>
>i'm not interested in accusations of insanity saying all this, i'm
>just breaking through the 'game' to reveal the reality. i know what
>its like on the street, i know what its like to be vampired. i now
>have a web connection and can fight back right into your comfortable
>homes tory twats.


Could this be a class thing?


Theo the dyslexic gnome

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <8IazTKAU...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike <mike@urb-
nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
>>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?

Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?
--
Dyslexic gnome

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <6vdodv$hg3$1...@news.gn.apc.org>, mong...@gn.apc.org wrote:

| The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:
|

| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
|

| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18

| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
| >say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
|
| hypothetical nonsense

Nope. Statistically accurate.


| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
is just
| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.
|
| yes yes bbc news, blar blar blar..

What has the BBC news got to do with anything under discussion??

| up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
| can make money. condemm this please reverend.

OK. I condemn the Indonesian leadership's condoning and supporting the action
of its troops in East Timor...not much different from ALF there
...and it's tens of thousands, not 'millions'.

|
| You appear to be arguing that
| >Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing
for him,
| >thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
|
|
| quite 'reverend'.

So you agree that Hitler was equally culpable, ergo ALF is equally culpable
for the attacks of Muslims and firebombings. Thank you, that was my point.

| shall we start a debate about government sponsered
| violence?

Is the government vegetarian? No? Oh well, no need then as it is
irrelevant to the matter in hand, although as a passing thought, one of the
most prominent vegetarian in the last government was Alan Clark. He too,
supported 'animal rights'. Alan Clark was also the man responsible for selling
Hawk fighters to the Indonesians - the same Hawk fighters which were used on
the East Timorese. Clark's response was that, if they weren't British subjects
he wasn't interested and would continues to sell Indonesia weapons. He was
also responsible for selling war materials to Saddam Hussein. ALan Clark is
a real compassionate man, he cares more for his dogs than foreigners.

| people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
| going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
| extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
| vivisectors do.

This, of course, is exaggerated lies, popular amongst the lunatic element
of ALF and animal rights. Animal experiments has brought untold benifits
to not only humans, but also other animals for the treatment of a huge
number of life threatening diseases. ALF would deny children the
right to medical treatment derived from animal experiments. But then,
ALF don't care about children, their only interest is in self-promotion.
They'd rather see a child die that a lab rat endure an injection, to them
the mere lab rat is worth more than a childs life.

[Incoherent rambling deleted]

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <9oAz7MA+...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|

| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
| >is estimated at around the 100 mark.
|

| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
| Chelsea home crowd alone.

Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
in reflected glory. Soccer fans are not in the same league as those who
have regular chats with the likes of the UVF.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <+u0T6JAu...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:


| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?

Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.

| I bet you wouldn't find many vegans or veggies amongst their ranks, so
| that leaves your argument... where exactly?

Still intact.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many


>| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>

>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18

>is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>say 100.

What convenient educated guesses. I presume you have absolutely no
evidence to back up these estimates?

>The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
>of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.

All you've proved (and I wouldn't call even that a proof) is that
membership of the ALF is a higher proportion of veggies than membership
of Combat 18 is of omnivores. This says nothing about levels of violence
in the population. I'd guess you'd find it hard to find any other groups
of veggies who are violent. Whereas, I'd have no trouble finding
evidence of other violent groups amongst the population as a whole.

Come back when you have some evidence.

>| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
>

>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just

>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that


>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.

No. I'm saying that there is a difference between condoning violence
because you believe (mistakenly or otherwise) that it is in the common
good and actually perpetrating violence. That makes Hitler evil because
of his complete disregard for human life, but does not make him a
violent man as such.

BTW, you still haven't answered my suggestion that, by your definitions,
everyone who supports a Nato air strike is violent.

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <FreR7DAO...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>, Theo the dyslexic
gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> writes

>Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?

If one more person brings up Hitler - I'm going to SCREEAAAMMMMMMM!

Nick Iredale

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <h2HYUJAS...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>| >| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of
>the ALF
>| >| >| >are veggies.
>| >| >|
>| >| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| >| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>| >| >
>| >| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>| >| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>| >| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>| >| >
>| >| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
>| >|
>| >| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
>| >| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
>| >
>| >It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
>| >and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>| >to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>| >the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
>|
>| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
>| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>
>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims

>of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
>
>But, of course, there is one key difference between the two, diet has nothing
>to do with those joining Combat 18.
>
>
>| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
>
>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
>
>
>| >
>| >Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
>| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>| >It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
>|
>| You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.
>
>I have indeed! You don't like it, but that is your problem, not mine.
>
You are talking complete and utter bollocks! You have shown _no_
evidence of anything but your own prejudices. If you do have any where
is it to be found? - publication, article, author and date please.

The only way your argument would stand up if there were only two
organisations in existence who were prepared to use violence to pursue
their ends, and that those organisations had a monopoly on acts of
violence, which they clearly don't, as the many unorganised violent acts
carried out by individuals and groups thereof show.

I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
the same foods in each person's case either).


--
Nick Iredale

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to


>| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>
>Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.

I'd say rather that the decision to join the ALF might play a part in
the decision over diet.

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <6vdodv$hg3$1...@news.gn.apc.org>, mong...@gn.apc.org wrote:
>
>| The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:
>|
>
>| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
>| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>|
>| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>| >say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
>| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
>|
>| hypothetical nonsense
>
>Nope. Statistically accurate.

Statistically, it proves only (subject to your dubious guestimates) that
vegetarians are more likely to be members of the ALF than a random
member of the public is to be a member of Combat 18. As I have said
already, it proves nothing statistically about the likelihood of the two
groups to be involved in violence.

>| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
>is just
>| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.
>

>| up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
>| can make money. condemm this please reverend.
>
>OK. I condemn the Indonesian leadership's condoning and supporting the action
>of its troops in East Timor...not much different from ALF there
>...and it's tens of thousands, not 'millions'.

In which case, you should also condemn the activities of BAe and the
British government in allowing arms sales to Indonesia which are used
for the above mentioned violence.


>| shall we start a debate about government sponsered
>| violence?
>
>Is the government vegetarian? No? Oh well, no need then as it is
>irrelevant to the matter in hand,

Not at all irrelevant because you cannot prove anything without
establishing that the incidence of violence for vegetarians is greater
than for the population as a whole. Thus anything which shows that the
population as a whole has a predisposition for violence is relevant to
the argument.

>although as a passing thought, one of the
>most prominent vegetarian in the last government was Alan Clark. He too,
>supported 'animal rights'. Alan Clark was also the man responsible for selling
>Hawk fighters to the Indonesians - the same Hawk fighters which were used on
>the East Timorese. Clark's response was that, if they weren't British subjects
>he wasn't interested and would continues to sell Indonesia weapons. He was
>also responsible for selling war materials to Saddam Hussein. ALan Clark is
>a real compassionate man, he cares more for his dogs than foreigners.

Yet again, you fall for the mistake of using a single case as evidence
for a trend.

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <HPO9OHAI...@square-sun.demon.co.uk>, Nick Iredale
<n...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes

>I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
>changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
>allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
>as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
>the same foods in each person's case either).

If you really want to look at links between diet and violence, you
should look carefully at artificial food additives. There are plenty of
examples of food additives causing anti-social behaviour amongst
children - tartrazine springs to mind.

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <52Fe0lAb...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|

| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
| >
| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
| >say 100.
|

| What convenient educated guesses. I presume you have absolutely no
| evidence to back up these estimates?

Combat 18 has been well researched in the past by various media organisations
including TV documentaries detailing their links with Northern Ireland
terrotist groups like the UFF and UVF. Their numbers of hardcore are as well
established, at around 100, as media estimates for membership of the IRA.
Similarly, the numbers involved in ALF hardcore activities have been ascertained
and has appeared in the media at various times. If you dispute those numbers,
take it up with the media, not me.

|
| >The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
|

| All you've proved (and I wouldn't call even that a proof) is that

| membership of the ALF is a higher proportion of veggies than membership
| of Combat 18 is of omnivores.

No. What I've shown is that veggies are 9 times more likely to join a
violent organisation than omnivores.

| >
| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
is just

| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
| >Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing
for him,
| >thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
|

| No. I'm saying that there is a difference between condoning violence
| because you believe (mistakenly or otherwise) that it is in the common
| good and actually perpetrating violence. That makes Hitler evil because
| of his complete disregard for human life, but does not make him a
| violent man as such.

Erm no. Those two don't follow. Hitler believed that the erradication of Jews
was for the common good - that makes him just as culpable as those he ordered
to do the killing. In my book, I see no difference between the two. The
culpability is equally shared - the paymaster is no less culpable of a murder
than the hit man.

|
| BTW, you still haven't answered my suggestion that, by your definitions,
| everyone who supports a Nato air strike is violent.

That's because it is a contrived red herring of the sort Duhg would float.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <HPO9OHAI...@square-sun.demon.co.uk>, Nick Iredale
<n...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| >
| You are talking complete and utter bollocks! You have shown _no_
| evidence of anything but your own prejudices. If you do have any where
| is it to be found? - publication, article, author and date please.

I believe Peter Brooks posted about 170 of them. Feel free to
consult them in your library.

| I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
| changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
| allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
| as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
| the same foods in each person's case either).

Fascinating - but we aren't discussing allergens.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <8QQ$tAANm1...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|

| >| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
| >| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
| >
| >Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
| >play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
|
| I'd say rather that the decision to join the ALF might play a part in
| the decision over diet.

I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
to rationalise one's diet choice.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

mike

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <+u0T6JAu...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
>| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>
>Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.

So what? Still doesn't prove a thing between your ludicrous supposed
link between a veggie diet and a predilection for violence.

Most BNP-ers are meat eaters. So are most criminals. So are most child
molesters. So is most of the UK.

So what?

Or are you *really* so wildly unscientific as to base your assertions on
the actions of a tiny, *tiny* group of fanatics?

mike

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <9oAz7MA+...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
>| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
>| Chelsea home crowd alone.
>
>Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
>in reflected glory.

How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
'hangers on' there are supposed to be?

You keep throwing around these figures for the supposed membership of
the ALF and Combat 18, yet seem strangely reluctant to name your sources
for these figures.

Richard Vialls

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

>I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.

There is no need for mob violence etc. in order to rationalise the
decision to become a vegetarian/vegan. It's just a matter of personal
choice based on personal beliefs/opinions. There are, of course, a small
number of individuals who become extremists - but then you don't need to
be veggie to be an extremist.

Which brings me back to a point which you've yet to answer - namely why
are you so keen to spread this strange idea that vegetarians are
inherently more likely to be violent? Your motivation for this crusade
(which you seem to have taken over from Peter Brooks) is a little
obscure - or is it all just a troll?

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <sJcnzHAN...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes

| >In article <9oAz7MA+...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
| ><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|
| >| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
| >| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
| >| Chelsea home crowd alone.
| >
| >Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
| >in reflected glory.
|
| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?

Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
like UFF and UVA in Ireland.

Hope this helps.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Richard Vialls

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
>| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
>
>Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
>like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
>
>Hope this helps.

Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
many people this is.

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <dyCXFcAH...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
|

| >I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
|
| There is no need for mob violence etc. in order to rationalise the
| decision to become a vegetarian/vegan.

Of course not, however there are those who will and end up joining the
ALF to that end. There's no such parallel for those omnivores who join
Combat 18, their diet is just not a factor in their choice, it's the colour
of their neighbour's skin. But I've said all this before, why are you going
round in circles again?

| Which brings me back to a point which you've yet to answer - namely why
| are you so keen to spread this strange idea that vegetarians are
| inherently more likely to be violent?

Who says I'm keen? I made a simple observation and you leapt in with a
challenge to produce evidence and numbers, so I did. How is this being 'keen'
to spread anything when all I am doing is responding to your requests? This
is all of your making, don't blame me for it!

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

mike

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.

Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
violence, isn't it?

But if you think focussing on the microscopically small subset of
fanatics that make up the ALF is doing your argument any good, don't let
me stop you.

Just don't expect to gain any credibility in the process.

Mike
PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?

Ian G Batten

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
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In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,


mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?

I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
that a useful debate?

ian
--

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mike

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>Who says I'm keen? I made a simple observation and you leapt in with a
>challenge to produce evidence and numbers,
>so I did.
>
I must have missed that. What firm evidence have you produced to support
your claims about the number of members of both Combat18 and the ALF and
what their diets are?

Mike

mike

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <sJcnzHAN...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>|
>| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
>| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
>
>Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
>like UFF and UVA in Ireland.

Ah. So you reckon that just being racist, violent and into football
isn't enough to get you into Combat18, and only those with 'documented
links with terrorists' can be classed as the 'hardcore'?

Ignoring for the moment your entirely arbitrary definition of
'hardcore', perhaps you could produce some sources for these 'documented
links', particularly in relation to the numbers of these hardcore types
and their hangers on?

I trust you also have some similar definitions and figures for the ALF?
>
>Hope this helps.

Not really. You've just made up your own definition of 'hardcore' in
relation to football, so it's pretty meaningless.

mike

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <6vg5im$b3r$1...@ftel.ftel.co.uk>, Ian G Batten
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes

>
>In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
>mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
>> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
>
>I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
>ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
>eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
>that a useful debate?

And apart from Hitler, how many other veggie mass-murderers can you
cite? One?

And meat eating ones....? How many do you want?

But you're quite right of course, it is indeed a totally fatuous
comparison, but in the face of Nits' ludicrous premise about veggie
violence it almost begins to seem sensible.

Nick Iredale

unread,
Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <dyCXFcAH...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>|
>| >I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
>|
>| There is no need for mob violence etc. in order to rationalise the
>| decision to become a vegetarian/vegan.
>
>Of course not, however there are those who will and end up joining the
>ALF to that end. There's no such parallel for those omnivores who join
>Combat 18, their diet is just not a factor in their choice, it's the colour
>of their neighbour's skin.

The colour of their neighbours skin is not a factor in that choice at
all, their bigoted attitude to it is.
--
Nick Iredale Leeds
Chainsaw sculpture - Wooden books - Pictures

http://www.square-sun.demon.co.uk

Nick Iredale

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <8QQ$tAANm1...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls

><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>| >| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
>| >| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>| >
>| >Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>| >play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
>|
>| I'd say rather that the decision to join the ALF might play a part in
>| the decision over diet.
>
>I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.

Are you serious?

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/7/98
to
Richard Vialls <rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <FreR7DAO...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>, Theo the dyslexic
>gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> writes

>>Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?

>If one more person brings up Hitler - I'm going to SCREEAAAMMMMMMM!

>Richard Vialls (please replace nospam with demon for email & WWW)


>Black Cat Electronics - contract electronics design
>Bodrwyn, Cerrigceinwen, Bodorgan, Phone: +44(0)1407 720717
>Anglesey, LL62 5EF, UK. Email: rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk
> Web: http://www.blakcat.nospam.co.uk

look kids, your falling into the 'reverends' game. the alf and combat
18 are very very different.

difficult to see perhaps from cosy living room. but look at it this
way.

would an alf peson attack a homeless person no
would combat 18/fascist? quite likely.

mathatma gandi was a vegetarian.

which church do belong to 'reverend'


andy t

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
In article <6vdodv$hg3$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
mong...@gn.apc.org (achildofmuvernature) wrote:

>quite 'reverend'. shall we start a debate about government sponsered
>violence?

Not on this ng, matey

>people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
>going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
>extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
>vivisectors do.

Please explain the bombings and beatings by your lot who are interesetde in
"relieving the pain of sentient beings".

>you get the occasional nutter, and police stitch up, and deluded
>reverend for that matter.

you sure do and the ara/alf mob seem to have more than their fare share.


andy t

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
In article <9oAz7MA+...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>And do you *really* think that your average neo-Nazi racist is less
>violent and less likely yo get involved in a punch up that an ALF
>member?

certainly less likely to commit arson and bombings, it seems.

Both seem equally adpt at spouting out clap-trap literature, tho.


MIke Warren

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
mike wrote:

> But you're quite right of course, it is indeed a totally fatuous
> comparison, but in the face of Nits' ludicrous premise about veggie
> violence it almost begins to seem sensible.
>
> Mike
>

Im confused. (yeah yeah..I know;)Earlier this year I remember Peter
Brookes arguing that veggies tended to violent acts and Nitty was
arguing AGAINST him.....maybe Peter managed to make him change his
mind?. Its a mystery isnt it;).
Anyway its quite obvious that Veggies are no more prone to violence
than meat-eaters. I bet John Hartson isnt veggie!.
Mike Warren.


Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >

| >I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
|

| Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
| don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
| violence, isn't it?

What? You mean like that noted vegetarian, Adolph Hitler? Or the cattle truck
chasers down the channel ports over the last few years?

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
In article <+C3fZxAQ...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >|

| >| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
| >| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
| >
| >Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
| >like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
| >

| >Hope this helps.
|
| Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
| many people this is.

I already have. Around 100 to 150 as widely reported in the media.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
In article <FreR7DAO...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>, Theo the dyslexic gnome
<holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <8IazTKAU...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike <mike@urb-
| nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> writes


| >In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| >.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >

| >>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
| >>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
| >>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
| >>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?


|
| Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?

Indeed, as is Alan Clark. Other 'noted' vegetarians include Saddam Hussein,
the late Ayatollah Khomeni and Gen Pinnochet in Chile. Ghandi is the
exception to the trend.

Veggies like to play down Hitler's vegetarianism by pretending that he had
some ailment which prevented him eating meat, but you only have to look at
some of the edicts he put out regarding the treatment of animals and the
management of the countryside. The Nazi Party were the first green party. Is
it a spooky co-incidence that the country in which the Greens are most
prominent is the one where the Nazis once ruled?

There was a story about the weekly banquets Hitler held for his honoured
'friends' in which only vegetarian food was served.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

Rev. Timothy N Nurse

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98
to
In article <e13rMBAi...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| In article <6vg5im$b3r$1...@ftel.ftel.co.uk>, Ian G Batten
| <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
| >

| >In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
| >mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| >> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
| >> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
| >
| >I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
| >ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
| >eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
| >that a useful debate?
|
| And apart from Hitler, how many other veggie mass-murderers can you
| cite? One?

Saddam Hussein, General Pinnochet...oops, that's two. Did I mention Khomeni?
Does Alan Clark count as a mass-murderer? He was responsible for thousands
of deaths in East Timor. Peter Sutcliff was a veggie. Don't think Fred
West was, though.

| And meat eating ones....? How many do you want?

Well, since there's a 10:1 population advantage for omni's you'd probably
need 50 just to match statistically. Of course if you want a simple body
count on the grand scale, there's no way omni's can match the veggie record
1/10th of the population kills as many as the other 90%.

--
CamARAB
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm

achildofmuvernature

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Oct 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/8/98