Independent Pilot Study Report
Andrew K Fletcher
RAISED BED SURVEY
Therapeutic approach by Andrew Fletcher
(Raised the head of the bed by six inches/ 15 cm)
Interviews conducted face to face 20th-22nd June 1997
9 with people who have MS, 4 with people who have: -
Severe spinal injury =2, psoriatic arthritis =1,
Ex-terminal alcoholic =1.
(in some instances the experiences of the partners were noted)
plus 1 telephone interview with a person who has MS
1 discounted face to face interview where bed was not used over 7 months
Interviewers Mr John Simkins & Mrs Jean Simkins
(Andrew Fletcher attended some interviews as observer)
Method & Approach
Evaluation in every case and on each aspect considered is based on the
answers given by the interviewees and therefore each report amounts to a
subjective review. IN a few cases there is some more objective evidence,
e.g. reports of optical examinations and access to records of physical
recovery of the spinal injuries, psoriatic arthritis and alcoholism. Medical
reports haven not been sought but two opticians reports were supplied.
The values given to answers obtained from specific questions are based on
perceived degrees of change on using the raised bed, from the 'norms'
described for the preceding months or years. Pertinent to this approach is
the comment by one responder to a 1997 MSRC survey:- "When my MS started my
condition was considered abnormal, now MS is well established my condition
is considered normal!"
Thus changes from what had been considered 'normal' were verbally examined
for extent, depth, permanence and influence on lifestyle.
The Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre Limited- Company No.
284203-Registered Charity No. 1033731. Registered Office- 4a Chapel Hill,
Stansted, Essex CM24 8AG. Fax No. 01279 647179
Basis of assessment
This report is submitted in the knowledge that no scientific validity can be
claimed nor indeed was there ever any intention to do so. The objective was
to identify why and how people believe they have benefited, or not, and to
quantify and where possible evaluate the quality of their information about
use of the raised bed.
We have done that with 14 people, most of who have MS. What we found at
worst is generally encouraging and, in the case of certain signs and
symptoms, suggests that substantial benefits may be obtained.
We believe there is good reason to conduct further investigation into the
therapeutic value of sleeping on a bed raised by six inches / 15cm at the
head. What is at work here is not specific to multiple sclerosis but the
disease offers an excellent test-bed for investigation of affect on wide
range of symptoms. The basis of physical and sensory sign and symptom
improvement via this therapy is rooted in encouraging a body process that is
normal and essential to human life and is an integral function in every
human body.
It is our view that further work could best be done by a series of
relatively short term studies on group of people who would be subject to
detailed analyses of medical and health condition before and after the study
period, and be monitored regularly throughout.
We believe that nothing in this report is overstated. A study protocol would
benefit from taking on board much of what was learned and is reported from
this survey. The additional use of other parameters including biological
data related to blood and fluid circulation in the human body and a
whole-body approach to analysing the results, would be likely to provide a
viable objective view of this approach.
MS ONLY INTERVIEWEES
Breakdown- age, time from diagnosis, time using bed
Ages
30-39 years = 2: 40-49 =2: 50-59 =5: 60-75 =1
TIME FROM DIAGNOSIS
Range- 3 months to 26 years: Average = 11 years
TIME USING RAISED BED
3-6 months =3: 7-12 months=2: 13-18 months=5
EVALUATIONS
Key to scores and values shown below are as used throughout.
Value
(1) Change noticed at minimum level; may be spasmodic; may not continue; may
not be obvious to others.
Table 1, Second highest number of changes at this level
(2) Definite change; mostly continuous; obvious to others; sufficient to
relieve a sign/symptom to a moderate level.
Table 1, Highest numbers of changes were described at this level.
(3) Definite change with good sign/symptom relief; commented on by others;
benefit is functional ability, virtually continuous; any fall back is short
term and benefit recurs at a similar level
Table 1, Fourth highest number of changes.
(4) High level of change; very good benefit in functional ability; very
obvious to others; only occasional short-term regressions in level of
benefit.
Table 1, third highest number of changes.
(5) Exceptional change particularly with tremor and Oedema; very obvious to
others
Table 1, Only two people at this level
Table 1 All;
Overall, the analysis shows various levels of improvement over 18 different
signs/symptoms. All figures show that for every sign/symptom at least three
people (30%) have indicated a benefit at one of the five values.
Value 2 shows the largest number of indications of benefit (which may
include the same people in more than one sign/symptom).
There are three signs and symptoms with the highest number of people (7)
claiming benefits, (at various values). They are Mobility: Balance: Bladder:
Hair condition.
The second highest number (6) includes Co-ordination: Optical: Oedema/Veins:
Sleep: Wakeup: Finger/toe nails: Temperature.
The third highest number (5) includes Tremor: Spasm: Healing/Skin Quality:
Sensory Perception; Energy level: Pain.
The least number (3) includes mood swings: Endurance
TABLE 1: Improvements 10 MS People Only
Changes
1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)......All...(%)
Mobility/Balance
4...(40)...............1...(10)...2...(20).....................7...(70)
Tremor
1...(10)...2...(20)...1...(10)...............1...(10)......5...(50)
Spasm
1...(10)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)..................5...(50)
Co-ordination
2...(20)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)..................6...(60)
Skin Qual/Healing
1...(10)..................1...(10)...3...(30)...................5...(50)
Optical
2...(20)...2...(20)...2...(20)..................................6...(60)
Oedema & Veins
..............................4...(40)...1...(10)...1...(10)....6...(60)
Bladder
2...(20)...3...(30)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................7...(70)
Sensory
2...(20)...2...(20)..................1...(10)...................5...(50)
Mood Swings
2...(20)...1...(10).................................................3...(30)
Strength/Endurance
2...(20).................................1...(10)...................3...(30)
Energy Level
3...(30)..................1...(10)...1...(10)...................5...(50)
Sleep Patterns
2...(20)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................6...(60)
Wake Up
1...(10)...3...(30)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................6...(60)
Condition Nails
...............5...(50)..................1...(10)....................6...(60
)
Condition Hair
...............4...(40)...1...(10)....2...(20)...................7...(70)
Temperature
1...(10)...3...(30)...1...(10)....1...(10)...................6...(60)
Pain
...............3...(30)....................2...(20)...................5...(5
0)
Totals
26................34...........17.............20..........2..............99
Table 1
The list of signs and symptoms includes only those with 3 people or more
reporting improvements whatever the strength of those improvements.
Improvements in signs and symptoms reported by less than 3 people over all
values are listed in table 1a.
Table 1 illustrates the range of values for each of the 18 signs/symptoms,
reported by the 10 people with MS we interviewed. Each person was permitted
only one beneficial change, (horizontal axis) against any one sign/symptom.
The interviewers allocated the value.
Table 1a Improvements in signs/symptoms reported by less than three people.
General weakness = 1 person: Bowel = 2: weight change = 2: Memory = 2:
Concentration=2: Fatigue = 2: Speech = 1:
Asthma = 1: Other respiratory = 2: Circulation = 1:
We find this an interesting list, as there was very little benefit reported
in the respiratory function and related conditions. It seemed natural to
assume that these would respond very well to this particular type of
therapy. However it appeared that only three people had these conditions at
a reportable level.
Fatigue also offers food for thought, as it can be one of the root causes of
problems with memory, concentration and speech. Considered as a composite
area of benefit then the total becomes a hefty 7, and maybe the relationship
of these and the therapy could be grounds for a study that we did not have
time to do.
Notes related to table 2
There were 38 reports of no change over the full range of 18 signs/symptoms.
People reporting no change may have reported on more than one sign/symptom.
The highest number of no change reports
16 including spasm; oedema/veins; sensory; mood swings; strength/endurance;
energy level; condition of nails; temperature
9 including mobility/balance; tremor; bladder;
8 including numbness; optical.
5 including co-ordination; skin quality/healing; sleep patterns; wake up;
pain.
Perceptions of no change were a disappointment to people trying this therapy
method, a response to be expected with any failed therapy. It is our belief
that
table 2 indicates a high degree of integrity on the part of the
interviewees.
Continued deterioration
We were surprised to receive only 4 reports of MS deterioration. It was not
possible in the time available to establish much in the way of detail but as
shown in table 2 the signs/symptoms involved were :- numbness: mood swings:
Strength/endurance.
TABLE 2
NO CHANGE AND DETERIORATION
Continued Deterioration
No Change
Mobility/Balance
3...(30)
Continued Deterioration...1
Numbness
No Change...4...(40)
Tremor
No Change...3...(30)
Spasm...2...(20)
Co-ordination
No Change...1...(10)
Skin Quality/Healing
No Change...1...(10)
Optical
No Change... 4...(40)
Oedema & Veins
No Change...2...(20)
Bladder
No Change...3...(30)
Sensory
No Change...2...(20)
Mood swings
No Change...2...(20)
Continued Deterioration...1
Strength/Endurance
No Change...2...(20)
Continued Deterioration... 2
Energy Level
No Change...2...(20)
Sleep Pattern
No Change...1...(10)
Wake up
No Change...1...(10)
Condition Nails
No Change...2...(20)
Temperature
No Change...2...(20)
Pain
No Change...1...(10)
INTERVIEWS WITH 4 PEOPLE NOT HAVING MS
Although these interviewees do not have multiple sclerosis we considered it
relevant to talk with them in view of the way the therapy is thought to
influence the overall functioning of the body. It seemed reasonable to
investigate changes they experienced using the raised bed, particularly
those producing similar reports to those of the people with MS.
We saw two men who have severe spinal injuries, a lady who has psoriatic
arthritis, a male alcoholic of fifteen years addiction, whose medical
specialist had given a prognosis of death within 3 months.
Improvements were reported in twenty different signs/symptoms, each with a
value of between 1 and 5. Not every person reported on the same
signs/symptoms and some reported no change. Overall, the best responding
sign/symptom with this small group was Strength/Endurance with all 4
reporting beneficial change. (See table 3).
The second most common benefits included
Optical; Bladder; Sensory; Energy level; Sleep pattern; Wake up; Condition
of nails; Temperature.
The least responses were seen in,
Mobility/Balance, Spasm, Co-ordination, Skin Quality/Healing, Oedema, Bowel,
Weight change, Fatigue, Respiratory conditions, Pain.
No benefits were reported for
Tremor, Weakness, Mood swings, Memory, Concentration, Speech, and
Circulation.
The highest number of changes were recorded at value 2 (21) closely followed
by value 3 (19) and there were 5 changes at value 4 (see chart for details).
There were 3 reports of no-change, including Condition of hair, condition of
Nails and Optical
There were no reports of deterioration.
TIME USING RAISED BED
Non MS Interviewees
Range = 8 months to 15 months
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
TABLE 3 NON MS 4--People
Changes
1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)...All...(%)
Mobility/Balance
..............1...(25)...............................................1...(25
)
Numbness
........................................................1...(25).....1...(25
)
Spasm
..............1...(25)...1...(25)................................3...(50)
Co-ordination
..............1...(25)...............................................1...(25
)
Skin Quality/Healing
..............2...(50)...............................................2...(50
)
Optical
..............1...(25)...2...(50)................................3...(75)
Oedema & Veins
.............................................2...(50)................2...(50
)
Bladder
1...(25)...1...(25)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
Sensory
...............2...(50)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
Strength/Endurance
...............3...(75)...1...(25)...............................4...(100)
Energy Level
...............2...(50)..................1...(25)................3...(75)
Sleep Patterns
..............................2...(50)...1...(25)................3...(75)
Wake Up
...............1...(25)...2...(50)...............................3...(75)
Condition Nails
...............2...(50)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
Condition Hair
...............1...(25)...1...(25)................................2...(50)
Temperature
...............1...(25)...2...(50)................................3...(75)
Respiratory
..............................1...(25)................................1...(2
5)
Pain
..............................2...(50)................................2...(5
0)
Combined Results IN 14 People MS & NON MS
We finally combined the results for both the MS only group of ten and the
Non-MS group of 4 to give an overall analysis of the full 14 interviewees.
(See table 4).
This provides, in our view, some confirmation of the conclusion, based on
the MS only results, that there could be an autonomic function at work,
which may well be capable of influencing certain signs/symptoms.
TABLE 4 MS & Non MS Improvements 14 People
Changes
1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)...All...(%)
Mobility/Balance
4...(28)...1...(7)...1...(7)...2...(14)...................8...(57)
Tremor
1...(7)...2...(14)...1...(7)..................1...(7)......5...(35)
Spasm
1...(7)...3...(21)...2...(14)...1...(7)...................7...(50)
Co-ordination
2...(14)...3...(21)...1...(7)...1...(7)..................7...(50)
Skin Quality/Healing
1...(7)...2...(14)...1...(7)...3...(21)..................7...(50)
Optical
2...(14)...3...(21)....4...(28)............................9...(64)
Oedema & Veins
...............................4...(28)...3...(2)...1...(7)...8...(57)
Bladder
3...(21)...4...(28)...2...(14)...1...(7)...............10...(71)
Sensory
2...(14)...4...(28)...1...(7).....1...(7).................8...(57)
Strength/Endurance
2...(14)...3...(21)...1...(7)...1...(7)...................7...(50)
Energy Level
3...(21)...2...(14)...1...(7)...2...(14).................8...(57)
Sleep Patterns
2...14...2...(14)...3...(21)...2...(14).................9...(64)
Wake Up
1...(7)...4...(28)...3...(21)...1...(7)...................9...(64)
Condition Nails
7...(50)...1...(7)...1...(7)...................................9...(64)
Condition Hair
..............5...(35)...2...(14)...2...(14)................9...(64)
Temperature
1...(7)...4...(28)...3...(21)...1...(7)....................9...(64)
Pain
.............3...(21)...2...(14)...2...(14)..................7...(50)
Table 4 lists 17 signs/symptoms which, with the exception of 'Mood swings',
correlate with the 18 listed in Table1. This table combines the results of
the two groups (14 people) and relates only to signs and symptoms recorded
for five people or more. (36%), as the cut off point.
CONCLUSION
In each of the Tables we have presented results in terms of numerical
strengths per sign/symptom, the related percentages of the appropriate total
of interviewees and also how each of the values benefits (1-5) points to the
corporate perception of benefits that the groups report they have obtained.
Overall we received well explained subjective reports in most instances,
firmly suggesting that people believe there are benefits, many of them
substantial, to be gained from using the raised bed as proposed by Andrew K
Fletcher.
The obvious determination of the interviewees to be as accurate as they
could with their comments was very helpful, if occasionally adding to the
time needed to complete the interview. Unfailingly, we were received with
great courtesy and interest in what we were there to do.
We carefully looked for evidence of exaggeration without finding any beyond
the normal tendency to sound positive and present a good face. Even so,
there were one or two who were clearly fearful of believing in what they
considered genuine.
There is a lot of interesting information to be obtained from our survey,
which we believe should be used to look more intensely at this therapeutic
approach. Not, it is emphasised, simply from an MS standpoint alone, but
taking into account of the autonomic function that forms the basis of Andrew
Fletcher's proposal.
Should there be a proposal for further study, there must be an adequate
protocol that includes provision for educational and training input to
patients involved, explanation of the practice of using the bed and the
general principle on which the concept is founded; frequent and effective
monitoring of each user between starting and follow-up medical examinations.
It is no secret that it is difficult for people in any project to keep to
the protocol if they are left to their own devices, without regular
encouragement to stay with it.
-
Message Board Title: "INCLINED TO SLEEP INCLINED"
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb405491
Paul Jones
It's really good to see excellant science conducted in a thorough and medodical
manner based on attempts to refute reasonable and valid hypotheses via well
designed experiments or surveys using accepted statistical tools on large
well-selected sample populations and controls......
Unfortunately this isn't it.
Cheers,
Paul
Andrew K Fletcher wrote:
> RAISED BED SURVEY
>
Barbara Edmiston
I RE-PRINT.............GOTCHA - ANDREW FLETCHER. !!!!!!!!!!
Now again, are you kidding, is this a joke a funny dream or are you
kidding.....now 1997 ?
Mega snip ..........<plus 1 telephone interview with a person who has MS> 1
just 1 just............what???????????????????????????
Once again I repeat for you and others -----------
Andrew Fletcher - I see you have changed your E-mail address - but here is
your message (told you I kept it all) on Thursday, 3 Jun 1999.
Subject: Re: Its good news for people with MS.
<Birth of a New Bed. The inclined sleep therapy concept is now incorporated>
<in a top quality bed, with a foot board built in, which is available under>
<the name of "Naturesway Sleep System", and is under application for a
"patent".>
<The incline is built into the bed and takes away the risks that are
inherent>
<in raising a flat bed, which are: <1.The difficulty of cleaning. 2. The
lack of built in> <stability. 3. The stress put on beds designed for a
horizontal position can break. 4.>
<Mattresses can slip off the base of the bed. 5. Mattresses are covered with
a> <slippery material (The Naturesway mattress is covered in a slip
resistant>
<fabric to address this problem).>
<"Naturesway Sleep System">
<The new bed goes out at exactly the same price as a traditional bed of the
same>
<quality. For example a single costs £376.00 a double costs 435.00 and a>
<King-size £699.00.>
<Andrew K Fletcher, Summer Haze, 26 Berry drive, Paignton, Devon, TQ3 3QW
UK>
You also wrote:
<How my work began In 1991 - I picked up a GCSE Biology book from a>
Boot-sale.>
(GCSE = General Certificate of Secondary Education.)
Also much later a disclaimer for the bed.
<We cannot and do not accept responsibility for any loss either by damage..>
<to property or injury, which you may feel, is due to altering your sitting>
<posture.>
You also wrote on Saturday 5, June 1999.
<During these experiments I monitored the heart and respiration rate of my
wife, our> <two teenage sons, and our three bull terriers, randomly, over
several weeks.>
Andrew also wrote.
< ..........discussion about a group of Monks in Tibet, who for some reason>
unknown> to me, have taken this scenario to the extreme, by permanently>
raising one of their> arms.....> <The inevitable consequence of this
unusual>
activity has been that the arm becomes totally useless and fossilised.>
Andrew's first post was:
<Something as simple as Sleeping on a traditional horizontal bed may be>
<causing Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's Disease, Osteoporosis,>
<Arthritis,Leg ulcers, heart conditions and many more serious medical
conditions.>
Be gone now Andrew - if sleep eludes you then go study your navel.....it has
less holes and flaws in it.
ed hill
flush... uh i mean fletch,
didja sell any beds today andy?
that's what you do for a living right?
sell slanted beds?
it's not an independant study if you sat there during the interviews as it
says you did andy. that among other things completely negates the numbers
which in themselves are too low to mean ANYTHING.
i overestimated you. (hard to avoid it really) i figured you'd have the
good sense to back off for a while. let things cool out while folks forgot
that you were trolling for easy marks who want to avoid real treatments
that are just plain hard to live with. we all want to avoid those
treatments. it's not pleasant to take a shot every day or week or coupla
days.
it hurts a bit, not much. and we get used to it. but it's tough at first.
and scary fletch. it's real scary to get DX'd with a serious illness. you
clutch at straws. even straws stuck in a pile of bullshit like your bed
idea.
you came back. and with a "study".
like i mentioned. you andy, as a man. and i mean this in the best way.
visceraly disgust me. not sure if it's your stupidity, or opportunism. but
as a man andy, yer a pretty low form of life.
sell any beds today?
you'll hook a few folks looking for "alternatives" and they'll buy your
line of crap because it's less painful than accepting reality. at least it
is in the short term. long term. the ABC's offer about the best shot at
maintaining function.
in the long run andy. the folks you convince in their desperation and
ignorance will pay for the mistake heavily. it hurts to wake up to this
andy. MS is a hard ride. it's made more bearable by real treatment and can
be slowed greatly.
but that won't diswade you andy. you splatter your utterly moronic
"studies" and the uninitiated will believe because they are too frightened
to look at the reality.
and you'll sell a few beds.
a few folks will end up in wheelchairs that otherwise wouldn't. a few will
believe you despite the absurdly flawed nature of the "study" you present.
there are interesting "alternative" treatments for MS. apitherapy may have
something to it. 4-Ap and forskolin can improve function for some. diet
can help most a bit and some a lot. there are more examples. if examined
carefully there is usually a solid scientific grounding behind these
"alternatives". they don't always get the attention of the big money folks
but there are strong arguments behind them. and they sometimes help folks
get through.
this is in contrast to your beds andy. there is no rational argument
behind them, there isn't even a believable line of bullshit andy. just
your persistantly mindless sales pitch.
and outright lies andy. did i say you are a liar? yup yer a liar.
yer a small liar andy. a bit simple and not too believable.
i remember you saying myelin is water soluble. myelin is made of fat andy.
at the MOST basic level here you are a fraud and have NO idea of what you
are talking about.
did i say mindless? nahh,you andy are a man with a mission.
sell any beds today andy?
yours in perpetuity
edward hill
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze..."
Daniel Halevy on Degas
| <include>ed's 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |
Lin&Jim
Paul Jones wrote in message <381FF4C5...@btinternet.com>...
>Andrew,
>
>It's really good to see excellant science conducted in a thorough and
medodical
>manner based on attempts to refute reasonable and valid hypotheses via well
>designed experiments or surveys using accepted statistical tools on large
>well-selected sample populations and controls......
>Unfortunately this isn't it.
You caught that too, eh?
Sheeeeeeesh........
:-)
Lin
~~ If you can't be nice, at least have the decency to be vague ~~
Lin&Jim
>Evaluation in every case and on each aspect considered is based on the
>answers given by the interviewees and therefore each report amounts to a
>subjective review. IN a few cases there is some more objective evidence,
>e.g. reports of optical examinations and access to records of physical
>recovery of the spinal injuries, psoriatic arthritis and alcoholism.
Medical
>reports haven not been sought but two opticians reports were supplied.
"Subjective review"? "Medical reports have not been sought"???
INVALID OBSERVATIONS!! NO INDEPENDANT SCIENTIFIC CORROBORATION! HOOOOONK!
NEXT CONTESTANT!!
>The values given to answers obtained from specific questions are based on
>perceived degrees of change on using the raised bed, from the 'norms'
>described for the preceding months or years.
"Perceived degrees of change"? " 'Norms' described for the preceding months
or years"?
INVALID OBSERVATIONS!! NO INDEPENDANT SCIENTIFIC CORROBORATION! HOOOOONK!
NEXT CONTESTANT!!
Dude, either you think *we* are gullible, or *you* are.
Since I, & many others in this group, have studied science & experimental
scientific methods, & you most obviously have *not*, I humbly suggest that
*you* are the gullible one.....for thinking that this hogwash actually
*means* something.
Time for a reality check, Chester. Go look in the mirror. See yerself? No?
Look DOWN. That's generally where SLIME resides.
How *do* you sleep at night, knowing that yer bilking innocent people out of
their money by practising pseudo-science? Hmmm?? Feel good about that, Bozo?
Do ya? People like you are the lowest of the low. To think that all the air
yer using could be put to better use by *real* people, instead of
scumbuckets like you.
**********************************
No, wait, I've figured it out. Yer actually a Masochist.....you HAVE to come
in here every few months for a good whipping!!! That's it!! You sick little
perv! Does yer mommy know about this abberation??
In any case, you should be ashamed of yerself. But I won't beat you any
further here.....you seem to enjoy it too much.
Get a hobby. Or a life.
Lin&Jim
Barbara Edmiston wrote
Barb:
Glad you re-printed this! Jim hadn't seen it.
His comment -
><Birth of a New Bed. The inclined sleep therapy concept is now
incorporated>
><in a top quality bed, with a foot board built in
"Damn!!! Good thing they thought of that, or people would slide right the
hell out!! Does it also come w/ seatbelts & airbags?"
:-)
alden
The only way I can understand an ex-terminal alcoholic is being a
dead alcoholic. Maybe it is just a case of semantics? Or
ignorance?
Andrew, did you attend the interview of the dead guy?
Steven
Andrew K Fletcher wrote:
>
> RAISED BED SURVEY
>
> Therapeutic approach by Andrew Fletcher
>
> (Raised the head of the bed by six inches/ 15 cm)
>
> Interviews conducted face to face 20th-22nd June 1997
>
> 9 with people who have MS, 4 with people who have: -
>
> Severe spinal injury =2, psoriatic arthritis =1,
>
> Ex-terminal alcoholic =1.
>
Molly McE
Your posts are either a complete misunderstanding of everything you've
ever read or an attempt to manipulate people with an illness that
threatens every aspect of their lives.
You have consistently refused to respond point by point to refutations
of your (mis)information. Attempts at logical, scientific discussion
are met with tantrums about our cravings for pills and needles,
rantings that everything in scientific textbooks is hogwash, and
declarations that you have discovered fundamental truths of nature that
eluded Einstein.
Until you are capable of answering, point by point, without hysterics,
you are a vile little bed salesman masquerading as a scientist. Ed's
right -- you are an obscenity.
Again: The human circulatory system is pump-driven. That pump, the
human heart, functions in zero-gravity.
-Molly McEvilley
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
ed hill
just a thought.
since you prove yourself to be entirely full of shit in matterd of
science.
is that how you do business andy?
if a customer, someone you've sucker'd into actually buying a slanted bed
has a problem, do you give 'em a runaround like you are us?
do you change the subject when an owner of one of your products complains?
just wondering andy?
so, ya sell any beds today buddy?
yours in perpetuity
ed
Sam Duffett
< ..........discussion about a group of Monks in Tibet, who for some reason>
unknown> to me, have taken this scenario to the extreme, by permanently>
raising one of their> arms.....> <The inevitable consequence of this
unusual>
activity has been that the arm becomes totally useless and fossilised.>
Subject aside, Amar Bharti of india has had his arm raised and an angle of
90 degreees for 26 years.
the gesture is a mark of respect for the Hindu god Shiva
so now you know!
Sam
Lin&Jim
alden wrote in message <38206F16...@swbell.net>...
>OK, I do not profess to be as bright as you but......
>
>The only way I can understand an ex-terminal alcoholic is being a
>dead alcoholic. Maybe it is just a case of semantics? Or
>ignorance?
>
>Andrew, did you attend the interview of the dead guy?
I took it to mean that, he's an ex-alcoholic...if he would have *still* been
an alkie, he would've eventually died....but now that he's no *longer* an
alkie, he's also no longer in danger of dying at anytime in the forseeable
future.
Pickled, perhaps?
:-)
Lin (pass the rotgut...)
Kip King
yes, recovered yes, ex no.
Sam Duffett
Kip King <wod...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38214B44...@home.com...
Was this person an 'Ex-terminal alcoholic' during the study?
If so, then can we reliably assume that the subject slept at the right end
of the bed? (Does sleeping on the inverse incline make things worse?)
Sam
Andrew K Fletcher
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb405491
Ask yourself, what drives the pump? You don't get ow't for now't!
See also "increased veinous return"
How does circulation start inside a developing birds egg when it is in place
long before there is a heart / pump! = Circulation 1st then the heart
develops. What drives this initial circulation of fluids? Perpetual motion,
perhaps not? Perhaps gravity might just be responsible after all?
> Again: The human circulatory system is pump-driven. That pump, the
> human heart, functions in zero-gravity.
>
> -Molly McEvilley
The heart does function in micro gravity, it has never been tested in zero
gravity, which would involve a considerable amount of travel away from all
planets. However immediately one enters microgravity conditions, metabolism
drops, circulation drops, the heart rate decreases in beats by 12 per
minute. Furthermore the heart decreases in size the longer a person stays in
space. muscular atrophy neurological deterioration and osteoporosis are just
a few of the problems encountered during manned space flight. And to top
this NASA and the former USSR Space programme have used prolonged
"Horizontal bedrest to reproduce identical deterioration of the human body
on perfectly fit people!
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network
*
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>
Message Board Title: "INCLINED TO SLEEP INCLINED"
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb405491
Andrew K Fletcher
disappoint the group, but you are totally wrong if you think this study is
just about selling beds. Do feel free to ask anyone on the message board if
I have tried to sell them a bed. You might also want to ask them how I am
supposed to get a bed to such far off distant places as Southern California.
The shipping costs alone would, I am sure, prevent such sales. One last
point, If selling beds was my sole objective, would I have given away the
zero cost method of acheiving the benefits from over five years of my life?
When you insult me, you also insult the people who post their reports on the
message board, and I do take exception to this. To call me a liar is to call
everyone involved in this vital research a liar. I suggest you read the
message board and send the individuals an email and ask them if they are
sure as to the accuracy of their posts.
Message Board Title: "INCLINED TO SLEEP INCLINED"
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb405491
I have sold lots of people on the inclined bed therapy though and guess
what, the only costs have been those incurred by me on the Internet? I doubt
whether I will be winning salesman of the year when I give the information
away for zip, in return for help with my study.
I apologise for trying to do this on half a shoestring budget, I agree that
a proper controlled trial is required and as John Simkins states in his
report further investigation is required. But do it I must and I have zero
time for those not interested. I just concentrate on helping
those who want help. So if you, like the minority here, want to ignore my
discovery, the choice entirely is yours.
I have helped thousands of people with multiple sclerosis to claw back lost
bodily function! Whether you like the idea or not, you have no excuse for
not trying such a simple zero cost experiment. If I am eventually proved
correct in you eyes, then I ask you to simply pass on the results by sending
in a report. If you don't notice changes, then send in a note saying this is
bullshit and I will add it to the study results, so what do you have to
lose?
By the way, Fletch is the name used by my closest friends, including my
wife, but you won't get round me that easy!
ed hill <eh...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:FKML6...@world.std.com...
>
> flush... uh i mean fletch,
>
> didja sell any beds today andy?
>
> that's what you do for a living right?
> sell slanted beds?
Nope again, I don't sell beds for a living. Its true that I am trying to
introduce a new bed in the UK Market, I will one day perhaps, when I have
proved this simple and obvious intervention, sell many thousands of beds. If
you think that I will
drop this because of the infantile behaviour shown to me on this message
board you are mistaken. While your attempts to throw mud at me do prevent a
few people from sending for the free
information. Yes! totally free information, many people are writing to me
every week asking if they can join the study. A few even post their
improvements on a message board, which is run and set up by a lady, whom I
have never met, in the States.
What should be happening here is that a group of people who would really
enjoy ripping my theory to bits should all sleep on an inclined bed for a
couple of months and then you would all have sufficient ammunition to blow
my work to bits. But you won't, its easier to throw mud.
It is absolutely absurd to defend a flat bed when conventional science has
already proved that horizontal bedrest causes many serious health problems
and even leads to death in some cases. You sleep flat because your bad was
made flat and for no other reason. Science does not even enter your decision
to purchase a bed, so why do you cast doubt on something you know nothing
about?
Sleep well on this
Andrew
Authors--------Germain F. Guell A. Marini J.F.
Institution----- Aix-Marseille 11 Universite, UFR STAPS 163, Marseille,
France
Title------------ Muscle strength during bedrest, with and without exercise
as a countermeasure.
Source---------European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational
Physiology. 71(4):342-8,1995.
Abstract-------Bedrest is known to be a useful experimental model for
simulating weightlessness and studying its effect on human skeletal muscle
activity. We therefore conducted a study in which 12 healthy male subjects
underwent 28 days of continuous exposure to a 6 degrees head down bedrest.
Our main objective was to test a set of preventative countermeasures for
maintaining the stability of the human body. Of the subjects 6 performed
deadlifts in the supine position for 30 to 45 minutes each day. The
isometric were performed for 5-30 s at 90, 120 and 150 degrees knee angles
and isokinetic training at speeds of at 30 and 150 degrees,, s-1. In vivo
quadriceps muscle strength was measured under controlled experimental
conditions with a commercial dynamometer. The hypothesis that intense daily
isometric and isokinetic leg exercise and lower body negative pressure
(LBNP) might serve to maintain muscle strength under conditions of
weightlessness was tested. Of the subjects 6, who did not perform any
exercise, served as the control population under conditions of simulated
weightlessness.
The results showed that a significant reduction (p < or = 0.0001) in the
muscle force [ -10. 3 (SD 6.7%)] occurred in the control group, whereas no
significant changes were observed in the trained group [+3.9 (6.8%)]. From
these studies we conclude that intense muscle training and LBNP constitute
efficient countermeasures to compensate for the biomechanical effects of
weightlessness on human lower limbs and to limit other factors such as
cardiovascular deconditioning.
Authors--------Traon A.P. Vassuer P. Arbaeille P. Guelle A. Bes A.
Gharib C.
Institution----- MEDES, Institut de Medecine et de Physiologic Spatials,
Toulouse, France.
Title------------ Effects of 28 day head down tilt with and without
countermeasures on lower body negative pressure responses
Source---------Aviation Space & Environmental Medicine. 66(10:952-91, 1995
Oct.
Abstract------- This study was performed to determine the effects of 28 day
head down tilt = (HDT)- (simulated weightlessness) on cardiovascular
responses to orthostatic stress induced by lower body negative pressure =
(LBNP) (before during and after HDT) and + 60 degrees head up tilt (before
and after HDT ) in 12 subjects. Half of them underwent counter measures =
(CM) of regular muscular exercise Isometric and isokinetic training) and
LBNP sessions (-30 mm Hg) as generally performed during spaceflight; the
other six were a control group (C). The countermeasure effect on the
orthostatic responses to LBNP and tilt test was assessed by studying the
changes after HDT in the two groups.
Essentially, blood pressure was maintained in group (CM) in the tilt test
after HDT (MBP at the end of the tilt vs . baseline value: + 16% (CM). LBNP
and muscular exercise may have contributed to this improvement. One of the
probable contributing factors is the relative conservation of plasma volume,
at the end of HDT, in group (CM) (-2.2%), compared to group (C) (-11.2%).
Transcranial dopplar (TDC) recordings of middle cerebral artery (MCA)
velocities permitted indirect evaluation of cerebral blood flow changes
during the orthostatic tests. MCA velocities decreased significantly
although slightly (-7 to -12%) during LBNP sessions without changes along
the HDT showing that the cerebral circulation was well preserved in each
group. On the other hand, subjects undergoing presyncopal symptoms presented
a drop in MCA velocities, suggesting a decrease in cerebral blood flow.
Authors-------Durnova G.N. Burkovskaia TE. Voraotnikova E.V. Kaplanskil
A.S. Arustamov O.V.
Title------------[The effect of weightlessness on fracture healing of rats
flown on Biosatellite Cosmos-2044]. [Russian]
Original title-Vliianie nevesomosti na zazhivienie perelomov kostei ukrys,
eksponirovannkyh na biosputnike "Kosmos -2044"
Source---------Kosmicheskaia Biologiia I Aviakosmosmicheskaia Meditsina.
25(5):29-33, 1991 Sep-Oct.
Abstract-------Two days before launch of the biosatellite Cosmos -2044 five
rats were exposed to surgical intervention: their fibulas were cut
bilaterally. The purpose was to study the effect of microgravity on bone
fracture healing. Histologically and histomorphometrically it was
demonstrated that haling was inhibited: as a result, bone callus was poorly
developed and bone fragment consolidation was inadequate. An increase in the
relative volume of osteoid and a simultaneous decrease in the number and
activity of osteoblasts point to mineral disorders of newly formed bone in
microgravity. Study of untreated tibia showed that exposure to microgravity
led to osteoporosis of proximal metaphyses. This osteoporosis was produced
by inhibited neoformation and enhanced resorption of bone. Comparative
analysis of injured fibula and untreated tibia of rats exposed to real
microgravity for 14 days or tail suspended demonstrated similarity of
changes. This indicates that tail suspension can be viewed as an adequate
simulation of microgravity with respect to changes in hind limb bones.
Authors--------Natochin IuV. Serova LV.
Institution-----
Title------------ [Water salt Homeostasis in Rats during spaceflight].
[Russian]
Original title-Vodno-solevoi gomeostaz u krys v usloviiakh kosmicheskogo
polets.
Source---------Aviakosmicheskaia I Ekologicheskaia Meditsina. 29(4):41-7,
1995.
Abstract-------The paper generalised the results of a series experiments
aimed at studying liquid and electrolytes contents in various organs and
tissues of rats following three-week space flights (SF). The results
ascertain high reliability of the water-salt homeostasis maintaining system,
which ensures stable water and electrolytes amounts in the majority of
animal tissues in SF. The following alterations appear to be of great
significance : deduced potassium levels in the heart ventricle tissues in
male rats after short-duration (7-9days) exposure in SF, zero-G-induced
degradation of the body ability to bind potassium at injection of isotonic
solution (KC) into the stomach; redistribution of potassium ions between
mother and developing foetuses in space experiments with pregnant animals.
Simulated experiments showed similar shifting of potassium ions in the
mother foetus system may be due not to weightlessness exclusively but other
impacts, I.E. they are not specific.
Authors--------Drummer C. Heer M, Dressendorfer RA. Strasburger CJ.
Gerzer R.
Institution----- Medizinishe Klinik, Klinikum Innenstadt, Universitat
Munchen.
Title------------ Reduced natriuresis during weightlessness.
Source---------Clinical Investigator. 71 (9):678-86, 1993 Sep.
Abstract-------The kidney response to weightlessness was measured in one
volunteer during a one week space mission. Shortly after entering
microgravity and later during the mission, consecutive urine sampling
periods were monitored, covering in total about fifty percent of the
inflight time. Preflight references were a sequence of ground-based
experiments, which evaluated body fluid metabolism with different degrees of
standardisation. Additional variables, such as circadian rhythms and
cortisol-associated stress; were also monitored. In contrast to current
hypotheses, the volunteer showed a pronounced reduction in natriuresis and
diuresis during the entire spaceflight, despite a considerable weight loss.
For the first time, the urinary excretion of the renal natriuretic peptide
urodilatin was also measured. Both, during the preflight experiments and
during weightlessness, close correlation's between urodilatin excretion and
sodium excretion were observed. However, the correlation between natriuresis
and urodilatin was considerably altered during weightlessness. We conclude
that the loss of body weight during spaceflight is not related to an
increased renal fluid loss and that urodilatin might counteract the decrease
in renal excretion observed in weightlessness.
Authors--------Bernardi M. Trevisani F. Fornale L. Di Marco C.
Gasbarrini A. Baraldini M. Ligabue A. Gasbarrini G.
Institution---- Patalogia Spaciale Medica I, University of Bologna, Italy.
Title------------Renal sodium handling in cirrhosis with assites: mechanisms
of impaired natriuretic response to reclining.
Source---------Journal of Hepatology. 21(6): 1116-22, 1994 Dec.
Abstract-------We recently showed that patients with compensated cirrhosis
can dispose of their fluid overload while reclining. In contrast, patients
with ascites fail to develop supine-induced natriuresis. To assess the
effect of reclining on renal sodium handling in patients with advanced
cirrhosis and the mechanisms blunting natriuresis in this situation, renal
function and plasma concentrations of atrial natriuretic factor, aldosterone
and norepinephrine were evaluated in 10 nonazotemic patients with cirrhosis
and ascites and 10 healthy controls standing for 2 hours and reclining for 2
hours. While standing, all patients showed marked sodium retention and
significantly elevated plasma atrial natriuretic factor levels, aldosterone
and norapinephrine. Glomerular filtration rate did not differ from healthy
controls. The reclining increased renal sodium excretion in both groups, but
this change was far less marked in patients: Natriuresis only rose to the
control range in two of them. An increase in atrial natriuretic factor and a
depression of plasma aldosterone and norepinephrine was seen in both
controls and patients. In the latter despite the greater change in atrial
natriuretic factor aldosterone, the aldosterone to atrial natriuretic factor
ratio, which was inversely correlated with natriuresis during both standing
and reclining remained significantly elevate. In the two patients who
achieved normal natriuresis during reclining, reclining was associated with
both the normalisation of the aldosterone/atrial natriuretic factor ratio,
and with an increase in glomerular filtration rate. The supine-induced
increase in atrial natriuretic factor was not only preserved but was even
enhanced in cirrhosis with ascites.
Registry numbers 51-41-2 (Norepinephrine. 52-39-1 (Aldosterone).
&440-23-5 (Sodium). 85637-73-6 (Atrial Natriuretic Factor).
Authors--------Gerbes AL. Pliz A. Wernze H. Jungst D.
Institution----- Medizinische Klinik II, Klinikum Grosshadern,
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitat Munchen.
Title----------- Renal sodium handling, neurohumoral systems in patients
with cirrhosis in sitting posture : effects of spironolactone and water
immersion.
Source---------Clincal Investigator. 71 (11):894-7, 1993 Nov.
Abstract--------Renal sodium handling, neurohumoral systems, and systemic
hemodynamics were investigated under baseline conditions in sitting posture
in 10 healthy subjects, 11 patients with cirrhosis without, 10 patients with
cirrhosis with ascites. Furthermore, the effects of head out of water
immersion, 1 week spironolactone administration, on the combination was
assessed in the two groups of patients. Patients Without ascites exhibited a
significant increase in plasma norapinephrine concentration and a tendency
towards an increase in plasma aldosterone concentration. Patients with
ascites had a significantly lower mean arterial blood pressure despite
significant reduction of urinary sodium excretion and fractional sodium
excretion as well as an increase in plasma aldosterone, and norepinephrine
concentration. In patients with ascites the increase in renal sodium
excretion and fractional sodium excretion following water immersion or
spironolactone was clearley augmented by the combination of the two
maneuvers. The same pattern was observed in patients without ascites. Our
findings (a) underscore the importance of studying hemodynamics, renal
function, and neurohumoral systems also in upright posture, (b) suggest a
role of sympatico-adrenergic activation and proximal sodium retention in
preascetic patients, and (c) are compatible with vasodilation hypothesis of
ascites formation.
Registry numbers 0 (Neurotransmitters). 51-41-2 (Norepinephrine).
52-01-7 (Spironolactone). 7732-18-5 (water).
Authors--------
Institution-----
Title------------
Source---------
Abstract-------
Authors--------Frey MA. Maeder TH. Bagian JP. Charles JB. MeshanRT.
Institution----- US Army, Madigan Army Medical Centre, Tacoma, Washington
98493.
Title------------ Cerebral blood velocity and other cardiovascular responses
to 2 days head down tilt.
Source---------Journal of Applied Physiology. 74(1) :319-25, 1993 Jan.
Abstract-------Spaceflight induces a cephalad redistribution of fluid volume
and blood flow within the human body, and space motion sickness, which is a
problem during the first few days of spaceflight, could be related to these
changes in fluid status and in blood flow of the cerebrum and vestibular
system. To evaluate possible changes in cerebral blood flow during simulated
weightlessness, we measured blood velocity in the middle cerebral artery
(MCA) along with retinal diameters, intracellular pressure, impedance
cardiography, and sphygmomanometry on nine men (26.2 +/-6.6 yr) morning and
evening for two days during continuous ten degrees head down tilt (HDT).
When subjects went from seated to head down bed rest, their heart rate and
retinal diameters decreased, and intravaocular pressures increased. After 48
h of HDT, blood flow velocity in the MCA was decreased and thoracic
impedance was increased, indicating less fluid in the thorax. Percent
changes in blood flow velocities in the MCA after 48 h HDT were inversely
correlated with percentage changes in retinal vascular diameters. Blood flow
velocities in the MCA were inversely correlated (intersubject) with arterial
pressures and retinal vascular diameters. Heart rate, stroke volume, cardiac
output, systolic arterial pressure, and at times pulse pressure and blood
flow velocities in the MCA were greater in the evening. Although cerebral
blood velocity is reduced after subjects are head down for 2 days, the
inverse relationship with retinal vessel diameters, which have control
analogous to that of cerebral vessels, indicates cerebral blood flow is not
reduced.
Authors--------Yamaguchi M. Hoshi T.
Institution----- Laboratory of metabolism and Endocrinology, Graduate School
of Nutritional Sciences, University of Shizuoka, Japan.
Title------------ Simulated weightlessness and bone metabolism:
Gravitational stimulation enhances insulin sensitivity.
Source---------Research in Experimental Medicine. 192(5):345-53, 1992.
Abstract-------The effect of simulated weightlessness on bone metabolism was
investigated in skeletal unloading for 4 days. Skeletal unloading was
designed using the model for hind limb hang in rats.
Skeletal unloading with hind lib hang caused a significant decrease of
alkaline phosphatase activity, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) content, and
glucose consumption in the femoral-diaphyseal tissues were cultured in the
presence of insulin (10(-8) M), the hormone produced a significant increase
of alkaline phosphatase activity and decrease of glucose consumption in the
femoral -diaphyseal tissues obtained from normal rats. This hormonal effect
was not seen in the femoral diaphysis but in the calvaria of rats with
skeletal unloading. However, insulin effect was seen in the femoral
diaphysis obtained at 3 days after the removal of skeletal unloading.
Meanwhile, the presence of other bone-regulating factors (10(-8) M
parathyroid hormone [1-34] and 10(-4) M zinc sulphate) revealed an
appreciable effect on alkaline phosphatase activity in the femoral diaphysis
from rats with skeletal unloading. These results suggest that gravitational
stimulation can directly enhance a specific insulin sensitivity in the
regulation of bone metabolism.
Authors--------Englemann U. Krassnigg F. Schill WB.
Institution----- Department of Dermatology and Andrology, Justus Liebig
University Glessen, Germany,
Title------------ Sperm motility under conditions of weightlessness
Source---------Journal of Andrology. 13(%):433-6, 1992 Sep-Oct.
Abstract-------The aim of this study was to determine the differences in
motility of frozen and thawed bull spermatozoa under conditions of
weightlessness compared with ground conditions. The tests were performed
within a series of scientific and technological experiments under
microgravity using sounding rockets in the technologische Experiments Unter
Schwerelosigkeit (TEXUS) program launched in Kiruna, North Sweden. Using a
computerised sperm motility analyser, significant differences were found in
sperm motility under microgravity, compared with sperm under gravitational
conditions on earth. Computer analysis showed alterations in straight line
and curvilinear velocity, as well as in linear values. The amount of
progressively motile spermatozoa, including all spermatozoa with a velocity
>20 microns/second, increased significantly from 24% +/- 7.6% in the
microgravity test. In conclusion, there is strong evidence that gravity
influences sperm motility.
Authors--------Sulzman FM. Ferrero JS. Fuller CA. Moor-Ede MC. Klimovitsky
V. Alpatov AM.
Institution----- Division of Life Sciences, National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, Washington, DC 20546.
Title------------Thermoregulatory responses of rhesus monkeys during
spaceflight.
Source---------Physiology & Behaviour. 51(3):585-91, 1992 Mar.
Abstract-------This study examines the activity, auxiliary temperature
(T(ax)), and ankle skin temperature (Tsk of two male rhesus monkeys exposed
to microgravity in space, The animals were flown on a Soviet biosatellite
mission (COSMOS 1514). Measurements on the flight animals, as well as
synchronous flight controls, were performed in the Soviet Union. Additional
control studies were performed in the U.S. to examine he possible role of
metabolic heat production in the T(ax) response, observed during the
spaceflight. All moneys were exposed to a 24 h light -dark cycle (LD 16:8)
throughout these studies. During weightlessness, T(ax) in both flight
animals was lower that on earth. The largest difference (0.75 degree C)
occurred during the night. There was a reduction in mean heart rate and Tsk
during flight. This suggests a reduction in both heat loss and metabolic
rate during spaceflight. Although circadian rhythms in all variables were
present during flight, some differences were noted. For example, the
amplitude of the rhythms in Tsk and activity were attenuated. Furthermore,
the T(ax) and activity rhythms did not have precise 24.0hour periods and may
have been externally desynchronised from the 24-h LD cycle. These data
suggest a weakening of the coupling between the internal circadian
pacemaker and the external LD.
Authors--------Shultz H. Hillebrecht A. Keremaker JM. Ten Harkel AD.
Beck L. Baisch F. Meyer M.
Institution----- Max-Planck-Institute for Experimental Medicine, Gottingan,
Germany.
Title------------ Cardiopulmonaryfunction during ten days of head down tilt
bedrest.
Source---------Acta Physiologica Scandinavica. Supplimentum. 604:23-32,
1992
Abstract-------Pulmonary and cardiovascular responses to simulated
weightlessness, i.e. six degrees head down tilt bedrest (HDT) were
investigated in six healthy male volunteers (mean age 26 years). Pulmonary
diffusing capacity, functional; residual capacity, pulmanary capillary blood
flow, and lung tissue volume were measured by inert gas re-breathing. Heart
rate and mean arterial blood pressure were obtained from finger blood
pressure readings using a plethysmographic technique (Finapress). The short
term (20 min) response to HDT consisted of a 22% increase in pulmonary blood
flow, and 13 % and 31% falls in blood pressure and heart rate relative to
standing. Functional residual capacity fell by 33%, while lung tissue volume
increased insignificantly. Subsequent measurements during ten days of HDT
and 5 days of recovery revealed no further changes in lung volume, lung
tissue volume, or blood pressure. However, diffusing capacity fell gradually
and remained 4%-5% below baseline values after the 7th day of bedrest and
during recovery (p less than 0.05). Pulmonary blood flow decreased by 16%
during HDT and recovered partially within the following five days (p less
than 0.05). We conclude that during and after simulated weightlessness,
marked alterations in cardiovascular function and marginal affections of
gass exchange can be demonstrated already at rest. They may be considered as
contributing factors to orthostatic and exercise intolerance observed after
space flight.
Authors-------- ten Harkel AD. Baisch F. Karemaker JM.
Institution----- Department of Medicine, Univ. of Amsterdam Academic Medical
Centre, Netherlands.
Title------------ Increased orthostatic blood pressure variability after
prolonged head down tilt.
Source---------Acta Physiologica Scandinavica. Supplementum. 604:89-99,
1992
Abstract-------The effect of simulated weightlessness on orthostatic blood
pressure regulation was evaluated with passive 70 degrees head up tilt (HUT)
after 10 days of six degree head down tilt (HDT). Six healthy male
volunteers were studied. Continuous recording of finger blood pressure (BP)
was obtained non invasively with a Finapress TM edice. Instantaneous heart
rate (HR) was derived from the electrocardiogram. To Quantify orthostatic BP
variability, a fast fourier transform (FFT) of the beat by beat BP-and
RR-interval values was performed. Control HR before HUT after the 10-day HDT
period was increased, probably due to an arousal state of the test subjects.
The change in BP induced by HUT was not influenced by 10 days' HDT, in
contrast to the HR rise which increased from 24 + /-2 Beats /min to 41 +/-7
beats/min (p less than 0.05). After HDT the total variance can be ascribed
to BP oscillations with a frequency of around 0.1Hz. In three subjects
transient HR decelerations during HUT after HDT were observed. Analysis of
the relationship between BP and HR in the transients showed that each HR
decrease was preceded by a BP increase above normal, these HR decelerations
seemed therefore, to be an effect of the vagal part of the arterial
baroreflex and did not necessarily signal an impending vasovagal syncope.
The present study indicates that although 10 days of HDT did not influence
absolute blood pressure ,responses to 70 degrees HUT, BP was maintained by
an increased sympathetic activity, reflected by an increased HR response and
an augmented variance in BP around 0.1Hz.
Authors--------Lathers CM. Charles JB.
Institution----- NASA/Johnson Space Centre, Space Biomedical Research
Institute, Houston, Texas.
Title------------Orthostatic hypotension in patients, bed rest subjects, and
astronauts. [review]
Source---------Journal of Clinical pharmacology. 34(5) ; 403-17, 1994 May.
Abstract-------Orthostatic hypotension after even short space flights has
affected a significant number of astronauts. Earlier treatment used oral
sympathomimetic ephedrine hydrochloride alone or with "Head-up" bed rest.
Authors--------Grigoriev AT. Morukov BV. Vorobiev DV.
Institution----- Institute of Biomedical Problems, Ministry of Health,
Moscow, Rusia.
Title------------ Water and electrolyte studies during long term missions
onboard the space stations SALUT and MIR. [Reveiw]
Source---------Clinical Investigator. 72(3):169-89, 1994 Feb.
Abstract-------This contribution summarises the results of investigations of
water-electrolyte metabolism and its hormonal regulation conducted in
cosmonauts who performed long term space flights (from 18 to 366 days)
aboard the space stations SALUT and MIR and compares them with the results
obtained during various NASA flights. The role of the kidneys in ion
metabolism regulation was assessed by various salt-load tests before and
after flights. In addition, the results of a five year long space flight and
of medical experiments performed during the 237 day-and 241 day missions by
the physicians and cosmonaut researchers Atkov and Polyakov are reviewed in
detail. In spite of interindividual variations, metabolic, and endocrine
studies during prolonged space flights showed a reduction in body mass,
usually with a reduction in body water and electrolytes and considerable
changes in hormone concentrations and urinary hormone excretion. These
changes reflect the process of extended adaptation to a new environment. It
is likely that shifts in electrolyte metabolism in weightlessness are
primarily due to metabolic changes, that diminish the tissue ability for
ion retention, and to concomitant changes in the endocrine status. The
postflight examinations revealed changes in fluid-electrolyte metabolism and
in the function of the kidneys which indicated a hypohydration status and a
stimulation of hormonal systems responsible for homeostasis in order to
readapt to the normal gravitation . Postflight decline in osmotic
concentration of urine in cosmonauts was accompanied by an altered response
to antidiuretic hormone and was probably caused by changes in the functional
state of the kidneys. We conclude that detailed knowledge of the alterations
in water-electrolyte metabolism and its hormonal regulation on different
stages of space flight are important prerequisites for the development of
countermeasures to space deconditioning and thus for increased human
efficiency in space.
Authors--------Krasnov IB.
Institution----- Institute of Biomedical Problems, Moscow, Russia.
Title------------ Gravitational neuromorphology. [review]
Source---------Advances in Space Biology and Medicine. 4:85-110, 1994.
Abstract-------This review shows that morphological studies of the central,
peripheral and autonomic nervous system of animals exposed to altered
gravity yield data which are extremely significant for our understanding of
the mechanisms of adaptation of the nervous system, and of the mammalian
organism as a whole, to increased and decreased loading Neuromorphological
studies, correlating structure and function, indicate a decreased activity
in weightlessness for spinal ganglia neurons of the hypothalamic nuclei
producing arginine vasopressin and growth hormone releasing factor.
Structural changes of the somatosensory cortex and spinal ganglia suggest a
decreased afferant flow to the somatosensory cortex in microgravity. The
results characterise the mechanisms of structural adaptation to a decreased
afferant flow in microgravity by the neurons in the hemisphere cortex and
brain stem nuclei. There is also morphological evidence for an increased
sensitivity of the otolith apparatus and for the development of a
hyponoradrenergic syndrome in weightlessness. These studies have shown that
both microgravity and the simulation of microgravity effects by tail
suspension -induced structural changes in the large neurons of lumbar spinal
ganglia and motoneurons of the lumbar spinal cord, which occur under
conditions of nerve cell hypoactivity. The structural changes, and
consequently the development of neuron hypoactivity, are expressed more
extensively after microgravity than after tail suspension for the same
length of time. The influences of microgravity and hypergravity on animals
is expressed by opposing changes in nervous tissue structure in the spinal
ganglia, spinal cord, and nodulus of cerebellar vermis. These changes
indicate neuron hypoactivity under microgravity and neuron hyperactivity
under (2 G.) Morphological assessment of the functional state of other
structures of the brain under hypergravity will require further study. Can
all structural changes which occurr in nerve tissue under microgravity or
under hypergravity be explained on the basis of increased or decreased
activity of its structural elements? The Presently available data regarding
the correlation of structure and functional state of cells in brain and
spinal cord suggest an affirmative answer. Ultrastructural studies of the
nodular cortex of the cerebellum in rats after different duration of space
flights provide what appears to be a convincing example. However, it should
be pointed out that the criteria for the morphological assessment of the
functional state of single nerve cells will certainly be different from
those groups of neurons connected in a nerve cell network.
[references: 69]
Authors--------Gerstenbrand F. Muigg A.
Institution----- Universitatsklinik fur Neurologie, Innsbruck.
Title------------Raumfahrtmedizin und life sciences in space
Source---------Weiner Medizinische Wachenschrift. 143(23-24):582-4, 1993
Abstract-------These results are important for medical application on
patients. In real microgravity, disturbances of motor performances,
co-ordination of movements, accuracy of movements, muscle function as well
as structural changes in muscles, Spinal reflexes and the control of
vestibular system on eye movements are also afflicted. Higher brain
functions, especially associative reactions, critical abilities, memory, as
well as high control, geometric and arithmetic analysis and its
reproduction, at last speech production, writing and reading are decreased,
vegetative disorders, bone decalcification, primary muscular atrophy occurr
as well as changes in sleep-wake regulation and diminishing of vigility.
Disturbances of blood and body fluid circulation are further effects of
manned space flight.
Several problems of space adaptation can be studied using the bed rest model
in special labartories.
Authors--------Cogoli A. Bechler B. Cogoli-Greuter M. Criswell SB.
Joller H. Joller P. Hunzinger E. Muller O.
Institution------Space Biology Group, ETH Technopark, Zurich, Switzerland.
Title------------Mitogenic signal transduction in T lymphocytes in
microgravity.
Source---------Journal of Leukocyte Biology. 53(5):569-75, 1993 May.
Abstract-------The activation of cononavalin A Con A of human peripheral
blood lymphocytes (PBLs) in the presence of monocytes as accessory cells was
investigated in cultures exposed to microgravity conditions in Spacelab.
Activation of T cells was measured as incorporation of [3H]thymidine into
DNA, secretion of interleukin-2 (IL-2), and interferon -gamma, and
expression of IL-2 receptors. Whereas, as discovered in earlier experiments,
the activation of re-suspended T cells is strongly inhibited, activation of
cells attached to microcarrier beads is more than doubled in microgravity.
The results suggest that the depression of the activation in re-suspended
cells may be attributed to a malfunction of monocytes acting as accessory
cells. In fact, although the ultrastructure of re-suspended monocytes is not
altered in microgravity, the secretion of IL-1 is strongly inhibited. Our
data suggests that (1) IL-2 is produced independantly of IL-1, (2) IL-1
production is triggered only when monocytes (and lymphocytes?) adhere to
microcarriers, (3) the expression of IL-2 receptors depends on IL-1, and
(4) provided sufficient IL-1 is available, activation is enhanced in
microgravity. Finally, cultures of re-suspended PBLs and monocytes in
microgravity constitute a complete and natural system in which monocytes are
not operational. This may be useful for studies of the role of accessory
cells and celll-cell interactions in T lymphocyte activation.
Authors--------Le Blanc A. Rowe R. Schneider V. Evans H. Hedrick T.
Institution----- Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX 77030, USA.
Title------------Regional muscle loss after short duration spaceflight.
Source---------Aviation Space & Environmental Medicine, 66(12):1151-4, 1995
Dec
Abstract-------BACGROUND : Muscle strength and limb girth measurements
during Skylab and Appollo missions suggest that loss of muscle mass may
occur as a result of spaceflight. Extended duration spaceflight is important
for the economical and practical use of space. The loss of muscle mass
during spaceflight is a medical concern for long duration flights to the
planets, or extended stays aboard space stations. Understanding the extent
and temporal relationships of muscle is important for the development of
effective spaceflight countermeasures. HYPOTHESIS. We hypothesized that
significant measurable changes in muscle volume would occur in Shuttle crew
members following 8 days of weightlessness. METHODS : MRI was used to obtain
the muscle volumes of the calf, thigh and lower back before and after the
ATS-47 Shuttle mission. RESULTS : Statistical analysis demonstrated that the
soleus-gastrocnemius (-6.3%), anterior calf (-3.9%), hamstrings (-8.3%),
Quadriceps (-6.0%) and intrinsic back (=10.3%) Muscles were decreased, p <
0.05, compared to baseline, 24 hours after landing. At 2 weeks post
recovery, the hamstrings and intrinsic lower back muscles were still below
baseline, p < 0.05.
CONCLUSIONS : These results demonstrate that even short duration spaceflight
can result in significant muscle attrophy.
Beck
<3821c...@news1.cluster1.telinco.net>...
>Nope, didn't sell any beds to anyone on the Internet ever!!!
Blah, blah, blah, and yadda, yadda yadda! My GOSH this guy is long
winded!!!!!!! And PLEASE don't feel the need to respond Andrew!
I had to laugh when reading some of this though..............I have a
waterbed, I don't know what you would have to use to jack up one end of it
and then wouldn't my mattress roll out like a big balloon!? No thanks, not
interested!
What a hoot!!
-------BECK-------
Faith Ends Where Worry Begins
ed hill
andrew or "flush" if i may....
bringing out a new line of beds in the U.K. huh?
nobody is throwing "mud" or rotten vegetables at you.
we're simply pointing out that you are a light weight, a moron, and a
liar.
you DID say in an earlier post that the myelin sheath dissolves in water.
you DID say that if you could just "stir" the spinal fluid it would heal
the lesions.
myelin is made of FAT you idiot!
and the CSF circulates on its own!
you don't know what you are talking about. so you type reams of crap to
cover the lies.
am i being to ambiguous here?
if what you posted were just put up as opinion then so be it. but you
lie in your long winded diatribes. you clain scientific validity by
writing reams of halfwit claptrap.
we are posting things that you consider insulting because you are
attempting to misinform the chronically ill. and are using a pseudo
scientific babble to do it.
the problem with your reference to the NASA study using bed bound
volunteers is that unlike normal folks those in the study NEVER LEFT THE
BEDS. it's a pretty well known study "flush".
it was the enforced inactivity that caused the problems flush. not the
angle of the bed.
as you say, you are bringing out a new line of beds in the U.K.
i wish you all the luck in the world. as a matter of fact i hope you are
so successful as to eliminate your need to attemp to victimize the
chronically ill.
and that i exactly what you are doing here flush. you are lying to folks
who don't have rescources to waste on bullshit like your beds. we need to
focus on things that are proven to help.
people come to this group looking for emotional and technical help living
with this illness from others who have the disease.
you have no understanding of the illness.
you offer no real emotional support.
and you lie in order to promote your idiotic line of slanted beds.
yours are not ALTERNATIVE TREATMENTS. they are simply lies.
maybe you've even convinced yourself flush.
if so i suggest a remedial class in basic science covering scientific
method.
as a man you are that small obscenity seen all to frequently that can no
longer understand when he's gone from doing business to simply lying to
anyone who'll listen in hopes of stealing a buck.
and as long as you post here you will be made to look exactly like the
idiot you are flush.
yours ad infinitum
edward hill
Lin&Jim
Andrew K Fletcher wrote
>When you insult me, you also insult the people who post their reports on
the
>message board, and I do take exception to this. To call me a liar is to
call
>everyone involved in this vital research a liar. I suggest you read the
>message board and send the individuals an email and ask them if they are
>sure as to the accuracy of their posts.
Well, Chester, since everyone in here already *knows* you've changed email
addresses at *least* once, it's entirely possible all yer wonderful
testimonials could have been posted by YOU! Most servers *I'm* familiar w/
allows a person up to about 5 email addy's each. Doesn't take a genius to
set up a message board & send yerself mail.
>I doubt
>whether I will be winning salesman of the year when I give the information
>away for zip, in return for help with my study.
Must be frustrating for yer bosses....do *they* know what a weasel you are,
too?
So if you, like the minority here, want to ignore my
>discovery, the choice entirely is yours.
"MINORITY"????
Yeah....the profusion of glowing fan mail on this ng alone attests to yer
brilliance & credibility.....uh-huh....right....
>I have helped thousands of people with multiple sclerosis to claw back lost
>bodily function!
How dramatic!! Author, author!!
Whether you like the idea or not, you have no excuse for
>not trying such a simple zero cost experiment.
Yes we do.....it has no basis in scientific fact!!! It's a waste of time!!
It's a fantasy you've obviously convinced yerself that even YOU believe!!!
It's a scam, & a transparant one at that!!! Bereft of life, it rests in
peace!!! This....is a bullshit theory!!!
If I am eventually proved
>correct in you eyes, then I ask you to simply pass on the results by
sending
>in a report. If you don't notice changes, then send in a note saying this
is
>bullshit and I will add it to the study results, so what do you have to
>lose?
It's bullshit, & all we have to lose is your presence in this ng. So go away
already.
>It is absolutely absurd to defend a flat bed when conventional science has
>already proved that horizontal bedrest causes many serious health problems
>and even leads to death in some cases.
So, a question I asked before, that you didn't answer (like sooooo many
others you don't answer)....How long did YOU sleep in a flat bed before
dreaming up this theory of yours?? HUH??? Or were you born & raised in a
tree? Fact is, if you slept in a flat bed before your 16th birthday, you
have just as much of a chance of developing MS as the rest of us, Chester.
Cos sleeping on an angle has NOTHIN to do w/ it. This is a *fact*, unlike
the fantasy you come in here & spew.
And, since we're still looking for you to answer some simple questions
here - a feat you've managed to avoid up until now - please explain away all
the millions of people through history who slept in a flat bed & lived to
ripe old ages, w/ no major health problems. Hmmm? Got any explanation for
them? No? Didn't think so...
You sleep flat because your bad was
>made flat and for no other reason. Science does not even enter your
decision
>to purchase a bed, so why do you cast doubt on something you know nothing
>about?
And why do you continue to quote "pseudo-science" in an attempt to cover yer
ass & avoid answering legitimate questions? Cos yer BOGUS & you know it! Cos
you still believe some guillible person will come in here & swallow yer
swill!!
Ain't gonna happen while there are people in here w/ a grip on reality,
Chester....
So why don't you scurry along & peddle yer bullshit somewhere else? I still
hold that yer a masochistic little worm who lives to be punished, & that's
the only reason you come in here.
I'm not gonna help you get yer rocks off anymore. Until I read something
outta you that holds any water scientifically, you can just go get spanked
by someone else. You are a waste of my, & everyone else's, time & effort,
intellectual lightweight that you are.
Lin
Molly McE
>really enjoy ripping my theory to bits should all sleep on an inclined
>bed for a couple of months and then you would all have sufficient
>ammunition to blow my work to bits. But you won't, its easier to throw
>mud.
In all seriousness, and making every attempt to refrain from
mud-slinging just because it's fun:
Despite that fact that you've long since convinced me beyond a shadow
of a doubt that you have little or no understanding of basic biology,
chemistry, anatomy, or physics, it did occur to me to wonder a few
months ago if there might be something to the idea of sleeping inclined
-- whether or not you were able to understand or explain the mechanism.
In the interest of fairness, therefore, I elevated the head of my bed 6
inches. I slept like that for 3 months. While I did not suffer any
ill effects and got used to the angle, neither did I experience any
improvement, and in fact had an exacerbation after about 10 weeks.
My experience is anecdotal and doesn't prove or disprove anything. The
point is *not* that any of us suspect that sleeping inclined is
dangerous -- the point is that you don't know what you're talking
about. You are a purveyor of misinformation (to put it mildly).
One of the things that we can do for one another in the name of
'support' is prevent the spread of misinformation. Do I enjoy
insulting you? Well, yes I do. Do I have any purpose in doing so
other than my own "infantile" amusement? Well, actually, yes, I do.
You post a lot of crap, accompanied by study citations. You use a lot
of words that might be unfamiliar to people who haven't spent much time
studying the human body. I don't want anyone to have to mistake that
for valid information -- because it's not. I don't want anyone to have
to get on that rollercoaster of hope/fear/excitement/disappointment
that accompanies a so many experiences with snake oil and
relapsing/remitting illnesses -- life is hard enough.
I suspect that you are mentally ill. Perhaps that's unkind, but it's
not a joke -- I do not believe that your intentions are malicious, at
least. You are an irritation, a joke, a disturbance, a great
opportunity for target practice, and I so wish that you would shut up
and go away.
-Molly McEvilley
Kate Murphy
>the problem with your reference to the NASA study using bed bound
>volunteers is that unlike normal folks those in the study NEVER LEFT THE
>BEDS. it's a pretty well known study "flush".
>
>it was the enforced inactivity that caused the problems flush. not the
>angle of the bed.
Ed,
I just read a study that encouraged the disabled and elderly who were
fatigued to SIT in a chair rather than lie in bed. I'm trying to do
that in an effort to keep as fit as possible.
Kate
fairman2
to Andrew Fletcher's study results. I guess it is all too common to shoot
down what we don't understand. Well, I for one of the many, many MSers have
been so thankful to Andrew and the help I received from him & his gravity
study. And I didn't have to buy a bed to have wonderful relief. We just put
our head of the bed up 6" on blocks and my life changed in many ways. From
the first night on, I finally was able to sleep through the night, didn't
have bathroom visits that had been running 3-5 pr night, woke up very
refreshed and rested. Didn't have the feeling of stiffness, and unable to
make my limbs work. Almost unable to walk. Was using a cane before the bed,
now I don't need one. I wasn't able to sleep in a bed for 2 yrs, had to use
the couch and now this bed has made my body much stronger and able to get in
and out of bed and turn over without help. I wish the best for all of you
and for those that question, "Does It Help, or Doesn't It"?, will never know
without trying it for FREE. Just raise the head of your own bed up on 6"
blocks or boards or phone books. Give it a fair shake. Go read the message
boards and see what others are saying about their experience.
http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb405491
God Bless you all. I'm sorry this has captured your insecurities,
hostilities, or turned into your joke, instead of your help. You'll never
know unless you try, at least it won't cost you $$$$$$$ and you can do it in
your own home and don't have to drive somewhere for some treatment. Oh,
also, forgot, It helps your feet stay warm. I slept in socks my entire life,
until I started sleeping on the bed. You only need a sheet, not tons of
blankets. Your metabolism goes faster and keeps you warm.
Again, Thank You Andrew, at least it helps me and many others.
ed hill
uhhh fairman2 or andy or whatever name you use.
PLEASE! i beg of you.
stop spamming this newsgroup.
people come here often in pain and fear looking to talk with others
who live with the disease.
fletch. if you want to set up a message board and fill it with
testimonials penned in the wee hours under other names, more power to ya.
at least then you'll leave small children alone.
but must you bug us here?
this is a support group for sick people. that is people with MS.
you are certainly a sick person. but as you've said yourself, you will
never get MS. well that being the case. and since no lie of yours will
ever go unrefuted on this group. why not go away?
we've established that you are at least a compulsive liar.
you've been here time and again with the same tired pitch that nobody's
buying.
there are a lot of places for you to hock your slanted beds andy. why not
go to them and leave this place alone. it's not meant for commerce and
that in the end is all you are about no matter what you say to the
contrary.
fletch, there are thousands of companies and purveyors of herbal and OTC
remedies that out of common decency leave medical support groups alone.
some admittedly log in now and then but soon realize that they like you
are unwelcome and being here reflects badly on them as it does you.
it's just bad business if nothing else.
and stop with the homespun testimonials andy. it's too dunb even for you.
and don't "take exception" to me unless you want to do it in person.
yours in perpetuity
ed
st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk
wrote:
>I don't understand why you people are being so negative and verbally abusive
>to Andrew Fletcher's study results.
I'm neither "negative or verbally abusive" about any potential
treatments for MS but I am very skeptical about all treatments because
I've yet to try one that has had any positive effect.
In the case of raising the bed I find that it has had no effect on my
MS symptoms. My wife had serious acid reflux so we were sleeping in a
raised bed for months before Andrew Fletcher related it to MS. The
acid reflux problem has now been cured by H.pylori treatment so we no
longer have a raised bed. My MS did not get any better in a raised bed
and has not got any worse since sleeping in a flat bed.
Steve
--
Steve Wolstenholme
Neural Network Applications for Windows
http://www.tropheus.demon.co.uk
Andrew K Fletcher
This conspiracy to sell something for nothing has eluded me, perhaps you
might try to explain what exactly I am trying to do, you obviously see some
hidden agenda in the post you replied to, which incidentally is an
independent attempt at reasoning with the unreasonable.
Thank you for posting fairman2, we shall have our day soon!
Kind regards
Andrew
ed hill <eh...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:FKrHu...@world.std.com...
>
> uhhh or andy or whatever name you use.
Bonny65865
<gravit...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Ask yourself, what drives the pump? You don't get ow't for now't!
Perhaps you might get a slight increase of stress causing a small
release of stress hormones over the months. A kind of mini steroid
effect! Possible, or not?
ed hill
you sell slanted beds. that's what you do. that's what you are trying to
sell through this addled spamming of an otherwise excellent support group.
and you are genuinly unique in your mindless persistence and utter lack of
scruples. you even write your own absurdly gushing testemonials.
duh
"Andrew K Fletcher" <gravit...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Hi Ed
>This conspiracy to sell something for nothing has eluded me, perhaps you
>might try to explain what exactly I am trying to do,
not a conspiracy. just you andrew. you make beds and as barb posted
earlier quoting you. you make slanted beds. this incessant spamming of
this and other groups is a benighted attempt to create a market for those
beds.
> you obviously see some
>hidden agenda in the post you replied to, which incidentally is an
>independent attempt at reasoning with the unreasonable.
i posted several questions to you as have others in an attempt to engage
you in a real dialog about what you are trying to say here.
you have never answered those questions andrew. you merely change the
subject. it's childish.
and i really do understnd what you are saying andrew. i have several
propeller beanies on my head at any given time and i suspect i can keep up
with you.
you should be more careful about the studies though, one refuted what you
are saying rather directly and many were simply not germain to your
statements.
>Thank you for posting fairman2, we shall have our day soon!
fairman2 looks a lot like something you wrote yourself andrew. you set up
a "board" and have been filling it with self penned "testemonials".
that'd worrk better if you made them a bit less gushing.
>Kind regards
>Andrew
now please stop spamming this group. nobody beleives you. you won't engage
real discussion. you are essentially using the resources of listserve
members here to promote your idiocy.
go away andrew. if other groups feel "open minded" enough to want you then
wonderful. it's a match made in... well i'd rather not say.
but without a willingness to engage meaningful discussion, you are not
welcome here.
you are actually one of the best arguments i've seen for a moderated
group. not something i'd welcome under almost any conditions.
GO AWAY
ed
>ed hill <eh...@world.std.com> wrote in message
Peter Parry
>I had to laugh when reading some of this though..............I have a
>waterbed, I don't know what you would have to use to jack up one end of it
>and then wouldn't my mattress roll out like a big balloon!?
I think you have to buy the optional water bed accessory pack
consisting of a 5kW refrigeration system to cause the water to enter
a hyper charged homeostatic state whereupon the molecules act
together in a friendly fashion to persuade each other through group
interaction to remain within the self agreed confines of the inclined
sleeping area.
To avoid getting frostbite from the block of ice you are advised to
actually sleep on the floor next to the bed.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk
tom
I've found that to find motive is the best way to explain a persons
behavior. Self agrandizement is the motive most likely here IMHO. Self
delusion is often co-existant. Did a voice in your head tell you about
raising beds ? I have MS and rely on my good friends to give me reality
checks all the time. Cognative dissodence is ever lurking with the
emotional rollercoaster MS can provide. I;m a bit of a voyeur and have
greatly enjoyed watching your mental masturbation .
"I get by with a little help from my friends"
Tom
Hi Ed
This conspiracy to sell something for nothing has eluded me, perhaps you
might try to explain what exactly I am trying to do, you obviously see some
hidden agenda in the post you replied to, which incidentally is an
independent attempt at reasoning with the unreasonable.
Thank you for posting fairman2, we shall have our day soon!
Kind regards
Andrew
Julian Eastwood
One day upon the Stair
I met a man upon the stair
I met that man again today
I really wish he'd go away.!!
Andrew K Fletcher <gravit...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:381ff...@news1.cluster1.telinco.net...
>
> RAISED BED SURVEY
>
> Therapeutic approach by Andrew Fletcher
>
> (Raised the head of the bed by six inches/ 15 cm)
>
> Interviews conducted face to face 20th-22nd June 1997
>
> 9 with people who have MS, 4 with people who have: -
>
> Severe spinal injury =2, psoriatic arthritis =1,
>
> Ex-terminal alcoholic =1.
>
> (in some instances the experiences of the partners were noted)
>
> plus 1 telephone interview with a person who has MS
>
> 1 discounted face to face interview where bed was not used over 7 months
>
> Interviewers Mr John Simkins & Mrs Jean Simkins
>
> (Andrew Fletcher attended some interviews as observer)
>
> Method & Approach
>
> Evaluation in every case and on each aspect considered is based on the
> answers given by the interviewees and therefore each report amounts to a
> subjective review. IN a few cases there is some more objective evidence,
> e.g. reports of optical examinations and access to records of physical
> recovery of the spinal injuries, psoriatic arthritis and alcoholism.
Medical
> reports haven not been sought but two opticians reports were supplied.
>
> The values given to answers obtained from specific questions are based on
> perceived degrees of change on using the raised bed, from the 'norms'
> described for the preceding months or years. Pertinent to this approach is
> the comment by one responder to a 1997 MSRC survey:- "When my MS started
my
> condition was considered abnormal, now MS is well established my condition
> is considered normal!"
>
> Thus changes from what had been considered 'normal' were verbally examined
> for extent, depth, permanence and influence on lifestyle.
>
>
>
>
>
> The Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre Limited- Company No.
> 284203-Registered Charity No. 1033731. Registered Office- 4a Chapel Hill,
> Stansted, Essex CM24 8AG. Fax No. 01279 647179
>
>
>
> Basis of assessment
>
> This report is submitted in the knowledge that no scientific validity can
be
> claimed nor indeed was there ever any intention to do so. The objective
was
> to identify why and how people believe they have benefited, or not, and to
> quantify and where possible evaluate the quality of their information
about
> use of the raised bed.
>
> We have done that with 14 people, most of who have MS. What we found at
> worst is generally encouraging and, in the case of certain signs and
> symptoms, suggests that substantial benefits may be obtained.
>
> We believe there is good reason to conduct further investigation into the
> therapeutic value of sleeping on a bed raised by six inches / 15cm at the
> head. What is at work here is not specific to multiple sclerosis but the
> disease offers an excellent test-bed for investigation of affect on wide
> range of symptoms. The basis of physical and sensory sign and symptom
> improvement via this therapy is rooted in encouraging a body process that
is
> normal and essential to human life and is an integral function in every
> human body.
>
> It is our view that further work could best be done by a series of
> relatively short term studies on group of people who would be subject to
> detailed analyses of medical and health condition before and after the
study
> period, and be monitored regularly throughout.
>
> We believe that nothing in this report is overstated. A study protocol
would
> benefit from taking on board much of what was learned and is reported from
> this survey. The additional use of other parameters including biological
> data related to blood and fluid circulation in the human body and a
> whole-body approach to analysing the results, would be likely to provide a
> viable objective view of this approach.
>
>
>
> MS ONLY INTERVIEWEES
>
> Breakdown- age, time from diagnosis, time using bed
>
> Ages
>
> 30-39 years = 2: 40-49 =2: 50-59 =5: 60-75 =1
>
> TIME FROM DIAGNOSIS
>
> Range- 3 months to 26 years: Average = 11 years
>
> TIME USING RAISED BED
>
> 3-6 months =3: 7-12 months=2: 13-18 months=5
>
>
> EVALUATIONS
>
> Key to scores and values shown below are as used throughout.
>
> Value
>
> (1) Change noticed at minimum level; may be spasmodic; may not continue;
may
> not be obvious to others.
>
> Table 1, Second highest number of changes at this level
>
> (2) Definite change; mostly continuous; obvious to others; sufficient to
> relieve a sign/symptom to a moderate level.
>
> Table 1, Highest numbers of changes were described at this level.
>
> (3) Definite change with good sign/symptom relief; commented on by others;
> benefit is functional ability, virtually continuous; any fall back is
short
> term and benefit recurs at a similar level
>
> Table 1, Fourth highest number of changes.
>
> (4) High level of change; very good benefit in functional ability; very
> obvious to others; only occasional short-term regressions in level of
> benefit.
>
> Table 1, third highest number of changes.
>
> (5) Exceptional change particularly with tremor and Oedema; very obvious
to
> others
>
> Table 1, Only two people at this level
>
> Table 1 All;
>
> Overall, the analysis shows various levels of improvement over 18
different
> signs/symptoms. All figures show that for every sign/symptom at least
three
> people (30%) have indicated a benefit at one of the five values.
>
> Value 2 shows the largest number of indications of benefit (which may
> include the same people in more than one sign/symptom).
>
> There are three signs and symptoms with the highest number of people (7)
> claiming benefits, (at various values). They are Mobility: Balance:
Bladder:
> Hair condition.
>
> The second highest number (6) includes Co-ordination: Optical:
Oedema/Veins:
> Sleep: Wakeup: Finger/toe nails: Temperature.
>
> The third highest number (5) includes Tremor: Spasm: Healing/Skin Quality:
> Sensory Perception; Energy level: Pain.
>
> The least number (3) includes mood swings: Endurance
>
>
>
> TABLE 1: Improvements 10 MS People Only
>
> Changes
> 1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)......All...(%)
>
> Mobility/Balance
>
> 4...(40)...............1...(10)...2...(20).....................7...(70)
>
> Tremor
> 1...(10)...2...(20)...1...(10)...............1...(10)......5...(50)
>
> Spasm
> 1...(10)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)..................5...(50)
>
> Co-ordination
> 2...(20)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)..................6...(60)
>
> Skin Qual/Healing
> 1...(10)..................1...(10)...3...(30)...................5...(50)
>
> Optical
> 2...(20)...2...(20)...2...(20)..................................6...(60)
>
> Oedema & Veins
> ..............................4...(40)...1...(10)...1...(10)....6...(60)
>
> Bladder
> 2...(20)...3...(30)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................7...(70)
>
> Sensory
> 2...(20)...2...(20)..................1...(10)...................5...(50)
>
> Mood Swings
>
2...(20)...1...(10).................................................3...(30)
>
> Strength/Endurance
>
2...(20).................................1...(10)...................3...(30)
>
> Energy Level
> 3...(30)..................1...(10)...1...(10)...................5...(50)
>
> Sleep Patterns
> 2...(20)...2...(20)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................6...(60)
>
> Wake Up
> 1...(10)...3...(30)...1...(10)...1...(10)...................6...(60)
>
> Condition Nails
>
...............5...(50)..................1...(10)....................6...(60
> )
>
> Condition Hair
> ...............4...(40)...1...(10)....2...(20)...................7...(70)
>
> Temperature
> 1...(10)...3...(30)...1...(10)....1...(10)...................6...(60)
>
> Pain
>
...............3...(30)....................2...(20)...................5...(5
> 0)
>
> Totals
>
26................34...........17.............20..........2..............99
>
> Table 1
>
> The list of signs and symptoms includes only those with 3 people or more
> reporting improvements whatever the strength of those improvements.
> Improvements in signs and symptoms reported by less than 3 people over all
> values are listed in table 1a.
>
> Table 1 illustrates the range of values for each of the 18 signs/symptoms,
> reported by the 10 people with MS we interviewed. Each person was
permitted
> only one beneficial change, (horizontal axis) against any one
sign/symptom.
>
> The interviewers allocated the value.
>
> Table 1a Improvements in signs/symptoms reported by less than three
people.
>
> General weakness = 1 person: Bowel = 2: weight change = 2: Memory = 2:
> Concentration=2: Fatigue = 2: Speech = 1:
>
> Asthma = 1: Other respiratory = 2: Circulation = 1:
>
> We find this an interesting list, as there was very little benefit
reported
> in the respiratory function and related conditions. It seemed natural to
> assume that these would respond very well to this particular type of
> therapy. However it appeared that only three people had these conditions
at
> a reportable level.
>
> Fatigue also offers food for thought, as it can be one of the root causes
of
> problems with memory, concentration and speech. Considered as a composite
> area of benefit then the total becomes a hefty 7, and maybe the
relationship
> of these and the therapy could be grounds for a study that we did not have
> time to do.
>
>
>
>
>
> Notes related to table 2
>
> There were 38 reports of no change over the full range of 18
signs/symptoms.
>
> People reporting no change may have reported on more than one
sign/symptom.
>
> The highest number of no change reports
>
> 16 including spasm; oedema/veins; sensory; mood swings;
strength/endurance;
> energy level; condition of nails; temperature
>
> 9 including mobility/balance; tremor; bladder;
>
> 8 including numbness; optical.
>
> 5 including co-ordination; skin quality/healing; sleep patterns; wake up;
> pain.
>
> Perceptions of no change were a disappointment to people trying this
therapy
> method, a response to be expected with any failed therapy. It is our
belief
> that
>
> table 2 indicates a high degree of integrity on the part of the
> interviewees.
>
> Continued deterioration
>
> We were surprised to receive only 4 reports of MS deterioration. It was
not
> possible in the time available to establish much in the way of detail but
as
> shown in table 2 the signs/symptoms involved were :- numbness: mood
swings:
> Strength/endurance.
>
> TABLE 2
> NO CHANGE AND DETERIORATION
>
> Continued Deterioration
>
> No Change
> Mobility/Balance
> 3...(30)
>
> Continued Deterioration...1
>
> Numbness
> No Change...4...(40)
>
> Tremor
> No Change...3...(30)
>
> Spasm...2...(20)
>
> Co-ordination
> No Change...1...(10)
>
> Skin Quality/Healing
> No Change...1...(10)
>
> Optical
> No Change... 4...(40)
>
> Oedema & Veins
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Bladder
> No Change...3...(30)
>
> Sensory
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Mood swings
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Continued Deterioration...1
>
> Strength/Endurance
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Continued Deterioration... 2
>
> Energy Level
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Sleep Pattern
> No Change...1...(10)
>
> Wake up
> No Change...1...(10)
>
> Condition Nails
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Temperature
> No Change...2...(20)
>
> Pain
> No Change...1...(10)
>
>
> INTERVIEWS WITH 4 PEOPLE NOT HAVING MS
>
>
>
> Although these interviewees do not have multiple sclerosis we considered
it
> relevant to talk with them in view of the way the therapy is thought to
> influence the overall functioning of the body. It seemed reasonable to
> investigate changes they experienced using the raised bed, particularly
> those producing similar reports to those of the people with MS.
>
> We saw two men who have severe spinal injuries, a lady who has psoriatic
> arthritis, a male alcoholic of fifteen years addiction, whose medical
> specialist had given a prognosis of death within 3 months.
>
> Improvements were reported in twenty different signs/symptoms, each with a
> value of between 1 and 5. Not every person reported on the same
> signs/symptoms and some reported no change. Overall, the best responding
> sign/symptom with this small group was Strength/Endurance with all 4
> reporting beneficial change. (See table 3).
>
> The second most common benefits included
>
> Optical; Bladder; Sensory; Energy level; Sleep pattern; Wake up; Condition
> of nails; Temperature.
>
> The least responses were seen in,
>
> Mobility/Balance, Spasm, Co-ordination, Skin Quality/Healing, Oedema,
Bowel,
> Weight change, Fatigue, Respiratory conditions, Pain.
>
> No benefits were reported for
>
> Tremor, Weakness, Mood swings, Memory, Concentration, Speech, and
> Circulation.
>
> The highest number of changes were recorded at value 2 (21) closely
followed
> by value 3 (19) and there were 5 changes at value 4 (see chart for
details).
>
> There were 3 reports of no-change, including Condition of hair, condition
of
> Nails and Optical
>
> There were no reports of deterioration.
>
>
>
> TIME USING RAISED BED
>
> Non MS Interviewees
>
> Range = 8 months to 15 months
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
>
> TABLE 3 NON MS 4--People
>
> Changes
> 1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)...All...(%)
>
>
> Mobility/Balance
>
..............1...(25)...............................................1...(25
> )
>
> Numbness
>
........................................................1...(25).....1...(25
> )
>
> Spasm
> ..............1...(25)...1...(25)................................3...(50)
>
> Co-ordination
>
..............1...(25)...............................................1...(25
> )
>
> Skin Quality/Healing
>
..............2...(50)...............................................2...(50
> )
>
> Optical
> ..............1...(25)...2...(50)................................3...(75)
>
> Oedema & Veins
>
.............................................2...(50)................2...(50
> )
>
> Bladder
> 1...(25)...1...(25)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
>
> Sensory
> ...............2...(50)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
>
> Strength/Endurance
> ...............3...(75)...1...(25)...............................4...(100)
>
> Energy Level
> ...............2...(50)..................1...(25)................3...(75)
>
> Sleep Patterns
> ..............................2...(50)...1...(25)................3...(75)
>
> Wake Up
> ...............1...(25)...2...(50)...............................3...(75)
>
> Condition Nails
> ...............2...(50)...1...(25)...............................3...(75)
>
> Condition Hair
> ...............1...(25)...1...(25)................................2...(50)
>
> Temperature
> ...............1...(25)...2...(50)................................3...(75)
>
> Respiratory
>
..............................1...(25)................................1...(2
> 5)
>
> Pain
>
..............................2...(50)................................2...(5
> 0)
>
>
> Combined Results IN 14 People MS & NON MS
>
> We finally combined the results for both the MS only group of ten and the
> Non-MS group of 4 to give an overall analysis of the full 14 interviewees.
> (See table 4).
>
> This provides, in our view, some confirmation of the conclusion, based on
> the MS only results, that there could be an autonomic function at work,
> which may well be capable of influencing certain signs/symptoms.
>
> TABLE 4 MS & Non MS Improvements 14 People
>
> Changes
> 1...(%)...2...(%)...3...(%)...4...(%)...5...(%)...All...(%)
>
> Mobility/Balance
> 4...(28)...1...(7)...1...(7)...2...(14)...................8...(57)
>
> Tremor
> 1...(7)...2...(14)...1...(7)..................1...(7)......5...(35)
>
> Spasm
> 1...(7)...3...(21)...2...(14)...1...(7)...................7...(50)
>
> Co-ordination
> 2...(14)...3...(21)...1...(7)...1...(7)..................7...(50)
>
> Skin Quality/Healing
> 1...(7)...2...(14)...1...(7)...3...(21)..................7...(50)
>
> Optical
> 2...(14)...3...(21)....4...(28)............................9...(64)
>
> Oedema & Veins
> ...............................4...(28)...3...(2)...1...(7)...8...(57)
>
> Bladder
> 3...(21)...4...(28)...2...(14)...1...(7)...............10...(71)
>
> Sensory
> 2...(14)...4...(28)...1...(7).....1...(7).................8...(57)
>
> Strength/Endurance
> 2...(14)...3...(21)...1...(7)...1...(7)...................7...(50)
>
> Energy Level
> 3...(21)...2...(14)...1...(7)...2...(14).................8...(57)
>
> Sleep Patterns
> 2...14...2...(14)...3...(21)...2...(14).................9...(64)
>
> Wake Up
> 1...(7)...4...(28)...3...(21)...1...(7)...................9...(64)
>
> Condition Nails
> 7...(50)...1...(7)...1...(7)...................................9...(64)
>
> Condition Hair
> ..............5...(35)...2...(14)...2...(14)................9...(64)
>
> Temperature
> 1...(7)...4...(28)...3...(21)...1...(7)....................9...(64)
>
> Pain
> .............3...(21)...2...(14)...2...(14)..................7...(50)
>
>
> Table 4 lists 17 signs/symptoms which, with the exception of 'Mood
swings',
> correlate with the 18 listed in Table1. This table combines the results of
> the two groups (14 people) and relates only to signs and symptoms recorded
> for five people or more. (36%), as the cut off point.
>
> CONCLUSION
>
> In each of the Tables we have presented results in terms of numerical
> strengths per sign/symptom, the related percentages of the appropriate
total
> of interviewees and also how each of the values benefits (1-5) points to
the
> corporate perception of benefits that the groups report they have
obtained.
>
> Overall we received well explained subjective reports in most instances,
> firmly suggesting that people believe there are benefits, many of them
> substantial, to be gained from using the raised bed as proposed by Andrew
K
> Fletcher.
>
> The obvious determination of the interviewees to be as accurate as they
> could with their comments was very helpful, if occasionally adding to the
> time needed to complete the interview. Unfailingly, we were received with
> great courtesy and interest in what we were there to do.
>
> We carefully looked for evidence of exaggeration without finding any
beyond
> the normal tendency to sound positive and present a good face. Even so,
> there were one or two who were clearly fearful of believing in what they
> considered genuine.
>
> There is a lot of interesting information to be obtained from our survey,
> which we believe should be used to look more intensely at this therapeutic
> approach. Not, it is emphasised, simply from an MS standpoint alone, but
> taking into account of the autonomic function that forms the basis of
Andrew
> Fletcher's proposal.
>
> Should there be a proposal for further study, there must be an adequate
> protocol that includes provision for educational and training input to
> patients involved, explanation of the practice of using the bed and the
> general principle on which the concept is founded; frequent and effective
> monitoring of each user between starting and follow-up medical
examinations.
>
> It is no secret that it is difficult for people in any project to keep to
> the protocol if they are left to their own devices, without regular
> encouragement to stay with it.
>
> -
Helen Williams
from "Julian Eastwood" <juliane...@cwcom.net> contains these words:
> Apologies to the author who I forget:
> One day upon the Stair
> I met a man upon the stair
> I met that man again today
> I really wish he'd go away.!!
I met a man upon the stair
But when I looked he wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
I wish that man would go away.
(think the author was that wee scottish chappie who wrote about
ghoulies and ghosties and long-legged beasties, but not sure)
Cheers,
Helen W:)
Susan Luce
told that you are having a little trouble with cognitive (not "cognative")
skills right now. "Agrandizement" is not an English word. Neither is
"dissodence". If you get sexual gratification from reading about a slanted
bed, then you're having a little trouble with more than cognitive skills.
Create positive, not negative energy. Cheers!
Karen Buzzell
be making fun of people's spelling. For some of us typing is a real chore.
Kay
Simon
babbled:
> "Agrandizement" is not an English word.
Admittedly Tom's missing a hyphen and the second 'g', but
self-aggrandizement is most definitely in the Oxford English
dictionary (with either a 'z' or an 's').
>...."dissodence".
This one I'll grant you <g> - though it shouldn't really be beyond
anyone to get his meaning (dissonance), particularly since the pairing
of cognitive and dissonance is found fairly often, and "cognitive
dissonance" has its own definition as a mass noun .
>Create positive, not negative energy.
By posting about someones spelling ability and suggesting that they're
having cognitive difficulties? by asserting that incorrectly spelt
words don't exist?
If you're going to post spelling corrections for every error and/or
typo in these or any other newsgroups then you'll be very busy indeed.
Of course, your entire post could have been a subtly humourous
pastiche of a troll, in which case I apologise for my lack of
understanding as I missed it entirely.
Simon
tom
that you were able to decipher my incorrect spelling, but my sarcasm about
mental masturbation may have been too vague. Cognitive dissodence is a
term coined in the 1950's that pertains to emotional states causing
self-delusion (blinders). I think good friends should offer constructive
criticism to each other and I think have a good grasp of the obvious, but
thank you for pointing it out to me. If you're interested in what gives me
sexual gratification, I'll be glad to respond to a formal request. Now I
must go to the doctor to have my tongue removed from my cheek. (not that
cheek..it's the one above the chin).
Will my final grade be forthcoming soon ?
its hard to be humble when you haven't done anything.
Susan Luce <sl...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:80d5ao$8...@journal.concentric.net...
> Tom, I don't know you so am not your good friend, but IMHO you need to be
> told that you are having a little trouble with cognitive (not "cognative")
> skills right now. "Agrandizement" is not an English word. Neither is
> "dissodence". If you get sexual gratification from reading about a slanted
> bed, then you're having a little trouble with more than cognitive skills.
> Create positive, not negative energy. Cheers!
>
Susan Luce
It was refreshing to read Simon's post, not because I enjoyed being
chastised for degrading Tom's English, but because Simon is obviously an
educated and/or a very bright man, albeit somewhat caustic. He may be the
only one who grasped my point, i.e., not that there were spelling errors in
Tom's post, but that in my opinion, it was wrong to perpetuate the slanted
bed criticism when this is a forum for all kinds of alternative treatments.
Tom was nitpicking and I was nitpicking back at him. It indeed was a
"pastiche". But regarding the "troll" descriptive, I'll choose the
Scandinavian definition.
BTW, aggrandize is a word standing alone. And Tom's intention with
"dissodence" did not escape me. Now let's return to discussing alternative
treatments for MS and leave the semantics for another day.
Tom, I sincerely appreciate your gracious response and your humor.
Susan in MI
sl...@concentric.net
Simon <x...@y.com> wrote in message
news:382b2f0a...@news.btinternet.com...
> On 10 Nov 1999 17:15:04 PST, "Susan Luce" <sl...@concentric.net>
> babbled:
>
> > "Agrandizement" is not an English word.
> Admittedly Tom's missing a hyphen and the second 'g', but
> self-aggrandizement is most definitely in the Oxford English
> dictionary (with either a 'z' or an 's').
>
> >...."dissodence".
> This one I'll grant you <g> - though it shouldn't really be beyond
> anyone to get his meaning (dissonance), particularly since the pairing
> of cognitive and dissonance is found fairly often, and "cognitive
> dissonance" has its own definition as a mass noun .
>
> >Create positive, not negative energy.
Paul Jones
The mistake that has been made here, and it is understandable, is that Fletch
posted to multiple MS mewsgroups - not just the alternative one. When people
reply, if they are not careful, then they reply to all the newsgroups that
Flotch originally posted. The mistake is not your's, Tom's or Simon's but
Flatch's. Within the bounds of alt.support.mult-sclerosis Tom was perfectly
right to flame Flutch, because he was talking garbage.
Cheers,
Paul
tom
I sure didn't intend to insult or inflame anyone..(well maybe just
you-know-who). I just wanted to offer my opinion (with a little humour
about possible motives for some of the "Cures" runnin' round. You have
left me with good vibes for the weekend...Thank You !
Tom B. in Nashville
trying to be humble
Susan Luce
Fletch, Flotch, Flatch, Flutch. This is getting to be a bit too much.
Tom, Simon, Susan and Paul. My MS mind can't comprehend it all.
Paul, is this a "mewsgroup" because we are being so catty?
Paul Jones <Paul_...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:382C6E2E...@btinternet.com...
Susan Luce
andrewk...@gmail.com
I do hope you will find time to listen to this interview and the others on the new IBT website. http://inclinedbedtherapy.com
Radio interview: https://youtu.be/kldTMZ4UyFI