Religion & how parents relate it to children
ne...@gemini-it.com
Pretty much as subject. I've got a 3yr old son Luke Aidan
(which I didn't realise are both saints names !!) I've got an interest
in all different religions but I suppose I'm classed as CoE although I
always wonder about the existance of certain key figures :-) I do find
all religions of interest esp. the Celtic, Pagan and Shamanistic ones.
After reading the halloween thread I thought it might be
interesting to see how different people have had to cope with other
parents, schools, authorities, etc. after you'd made it clear which
religions/beliefs you wanted your child to follow/worship/etc.
Regards
Neil E.
Remove [removetoreply] from email address to mail me direct
Lauren
news:3dc2413c...@usenet.plus.net...
Oh good - a religious thread ! ;o)
Well, I am a militant atheist, but luckily my daughter goes to a private
school, without any formal RE, and with absolutely no 'daily act of worship
of a broader Xtian nature'.
She does learn about each festival - Divali next week, then Hannukah, then
Xmas - but just as interesting stories, which I can just about live with !
Lauren
Nicky
> interesting to see how different people have had to cope with other
> parents, schools, authorities, etc. after you'd made it clear which
> religions/beliefs you wanted your child to follow/worship/etc.
Last Parents Evening several parents brought up concerns that our
non-denominational school has moved away from teaching The Five Great Faiths
towards teaching just Christianity in the last three years.
The teachers were saying things like "I'm not disagreeing with you, but
that's what we've been instructed to teach and we have no choice."
p_rone
> <ne...@gemini-it.com> wrote
> > (which I didn't realise are both saints names !!) I've got an
interest
> > in all different religions but I suppose I'm classed as CoE
Erm.... that's "Christian".
> > After reading the halloween thread I thought it might be
> > interesting to see how different people have had to cope with
other
> > parents, schools, authorities, etc. after you'd made it clear
which
> > religions/beliefs you wanted your child to follow/worship/etc.
> Well, I am a militant atheist, but luckily my daughter goes to a
private
> school, without any formal RE, and with absolutely no 'daily act
of worship
> of a broader Xtian nature'.
Disgraceful. Why should you force your own non-belief on people.
Do you have a problem saying "Christian", or do you similarly
abbreviate the names of other religions, I wonder?
> She does learn about each festival - Divali next week, then
Hannukah, then
> Xmas - but just as interesting stories, which I can just about
live with !
I should hope you *can* live with it. You sound like a bigot.
Let's hope you don't celebrate any religious festivals, believe
in ghosts or wiches or magic, think of any afterlife/previous
life, occasionally say "Oh my God!", "Damn!" or whatever.
________________________________________________________________
Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com
Dee
"p_rone" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:200211010531...@donotreply.com...
And this is why a topic on religion is never a good idea. Maybe sex or
politics would have been safer :))
p_rone
> "p_rone" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote
> > [ snip! ]
> And this is why a topic on religion is never a good idea. Maybe
sex or
> politics would have been safer :))
There's a difference between accepting people's differences
in religion and trying to shove one's own point of view down
someone's throat.
Oh, sorry, have I changed the subject too quickly?
Politics next? Doesn't Fascist Tony remind you of Mussolini!
Erk! "Help!" quoth p_rone, faintly.
Erm.... perhaps I should, at this juncture, mention the
name Hitler.
ne...@gemini-it.com
>
>And this is why a topic on religion is never a good idea. Maybe sex or
>politics would have been safer :))
>
I thought I'd better start with a good one for my first
subject ;-)
Steve Roberts
>
> Well, I am a militant atheist, but luckily my daughter goes to a private
> school, without any formal RE, and with absolutely no 'daily act of
worship
> of a broader Xtian nature'.
>
> She does learn about each festival - Divali next week, then Hannukah, then
> Xmas - but just as interesting stories, which I can just about live with !
>
> Lauren
This is one of moderate concern to me too. I'm also an atheist, though not
in-yer-face about it (e.g. I agree with Richard Dawkins' opinions on the
whole but wish he weren't such a grinding pain in the arse about them...).
One the one hand: (esp. re Christianity) part of our culture, can't
appreciate much of literature and art without knowing about it, key figures
are powerful moral examples... and so forth -
One the other: as far as I'm concerned, based on several completely invalid
premises - existence and powers of supreme being, moral codes handed down
rather than self- or socially- generated, life after death in all its
variants... and so forth.
I guess I'll just have to wing it - like I'm doing everything else to do
with parenting!
Steve
Lauren
> private
> > school, without any formal RE, and with absolutely no 'daily act
> of worship
> > of a broader Xtian nature'.
>
> Disgraceful. Why should you force your own non-belief on people.
What people - there is no religion at school, that is the main reason I
chose it - what am I forcing on whom ? My daughter ? I'm not forcing
anything on my own daughter - I am educating her !
> Do you have a problem saying "Christian", or do you similarly
> abbreviate the names of other religions, I wonder?
Um, no - it's a standard Newsgroup thing - trolls search for Christian, so
you put Xtian and hope the trolls don't turn up, that's all. Calm down.
> > She does learn about each festival - Divali next week, then
> Hannukah, then
> > Xmas - but just as interesting stories, which I can just about
> live with !
>
> I should hope you *can* live with it. You sound like a bigot.
Hmmm. Lets say you have a child. You want it to have the education you
approve of. You chose a school that teaches a curriculum you approve of.
I have the right to be an atheist and bring my children up to be atheists.
I'm not the bigot here.
> Let's hope you don't celebrate any religious festivals, believe
> in ghosts or wiches or magic, think of any afterlife/previous
> life, occasionally say "Oh my God!", "Damn!" or whatever.
Nope, no festivals, no ghosts, no magic, no afterlife. Oh my god - a
consistent atheist !!!
Lauren
madhouse
I try to cover all modern and several ancient religions. Obviously being a
Wiccan I do teach my children about that too. My eldest son goes to several
church events but has decided himself that he doesn't like the way the
church preaches. But he had the choice.
My children never see me practising or any of my candles etc. This is
because I do not think they are old enough to really take part in anything
other than the main events throughout the year. If my children chose to
follow the same path as myself I would guide them.
I do feel that schools RE is very selective. I find old religions or
Shamanistic religions very interesting.
Thanks.
--
Lynda (daz's other half)
Derby uk.
Mum, biker, and modified car nut. :-)
***I have nothing to declare but my genius***
<ne...@gemini-it.com> wrote in message
news:3dc2413c...@usenet.plus.net...
Penny Gaines
[snip]
> We haven't got that far yet, but we're hardly at the cutting edge where I
> live. Our ND school covers pretty much everything *but* Christianity in
> class, and in service they sing the whole repertoire of "Your 1,000 best
> tunes on the tambourine":-) (There's one that goes "God said to Noah,
> build an arky arky arky".)
>
> I listen to the children read sometimes and once, when I was listening to
> a little boy with a particularly Welsh name and he was reading words like
> "chapel" and "hymn" he had no idea what they meant. Not a clue. Am I just
> getting old, or was I rash when I thought when they said "multicultural"
> they'd mean his culture as well? (Yes, I know his parents should figure in
> the story too:-(
The local school is a church school, so my kids get a basic Christian
education there. As we are (not very good at going to Church) Christians,
I'm very happy about that. However, the most important priority is the
quality of the education.
I agree that "multicultural" does seem to mean "not-Christian". I don't
know where they expect non-churchgoing kids to pick it up from. I think
it is rather non-sensical that the daily acts of worship are supposed
to be "of a broadly Christian nature", given that most teachers probably
aren't Christians themselves. It would be like a non-pagan teacher, who
has just about worked out that Halloween and Samhein(sp) are connected,
to teach paganism.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
Nicky
> > of worship
> > > of a broader Xtian nature'.
> > Disgraceful. Why should you force your own non-belief on people.
> > Do you have a problem saying "Christian", or do you similarly
> > abbreviate the names of other religions, I wonder?
The use of the 'X' is a perfectly respectable abbreviation used by
Christians and non-Christians (as in Xmas).
Tweetie Pooh
with news:3dc2413c...@usenet.plus.net:
I am a Christian and attend an evangelical church. Not a parent quite yet
but will teach child about the Christian faith and bring them up as best I
can. Like me they will have to make their own commitment to Christ (or not)
at some point in their life. The younger the better but I can't make it for
them. I became a Christian when I was 12 or so. I had had a church
upbringing but had to descide for myself.
I would wish them to attend a school with a Christian ethos but am willing
that they learn about other faiths though not to participate in them.
I would desire they are taught science properly (actually they should revert
back to separate science subjects phyics, chemistry, biology, geology etc.)
They should learn about evolution as a theory or hypothosis but also
alternatives including creation.
They should learn that because others believe differently doesn't make them
lesser. Don't simply discount things because they are different.
Carol T
> parents, schools, authorities, etc. after you'd made it clear which
> religions/beliefs you wanted your child to follow/worship/etc.
There's one thing that we can never guarantee our children, and that is that
any of us, our relatives or friends will always be there for them tomorrow.
There's no greater gift that you can give to a child than to promise them
with absolute certainty that there _will_ be someone there for them when you
are not around. Given with conviction this is to be _their_ belief not
yours, it will be their personal relationship with God.
I think that people are frightened of sharing their child, especially with
God because it means handing them over completely to the unknown. However,
if people teach their children to love God unreservedly (your faith doesn't
matter) in return the child will love and respect their parents back
unreservedly, this is a promise. To do this you have to teach the word of
God it in its purity, with wisdom and conviction, so you have to learn
yourselves.
God is with them in the beginning, He will be with them until the end. With
that knowledge they will always feel safe and secure even in their greatest
of dangers, as if they have your own arms around them they will trust in
God's embrace. They will also behave when you are not there to discipline
them because they will have a fear of Him. This is not a bad fear in the
same context as being afraid of a monster, but a fear that they will have
let Him down, in much the same way they strive to please you as parents.
My oldest children went to a non Christian school which was intent in
undoing all the years of Sunday school teaching, guides and Girls Brigade,
it was a big mistake and it darkened our lives. Our younger children go to
a Christian senior school which is a happy place that cares for their
well-being and gives them encouragement for their futures. They have after
school Christian groups, communion in their house groups, they sing hymns
and they actively promote love for one another.
Religious Education is not about being a Christian, it is simply the
foundation teaching of theology as a subject. Unfortunately it's been used
as an excuse to drop Christianity and its teachings as a way of life
_outside_ the school. Many children today don't experience the benefits of
belonging to a church community even if it's just to go to church organised
Sunday Schools and youth groups.
Being a non-believer imposes a discomfort of using a church when they are
older regardless of what religion the child might liked to have followed.
This is sad. I believe that regardless of what belief a parent has, that
every child has the right to that open door which will bring them freedoms
and securities their parents may never have experienced.
Remember, there's no greater gift anyone can give a child than to introduce
them to the person who will be at their side until the end of their days.
This is my opinion based on experience and not meant to offend anyone. God
also gave us the freewill to make our own mistakes, which is just as well
because I've made loads over the years! :o)
Carol T
madhouse
"Tweetie Pooh" <tp60...@cia.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns92BCA0ECF4...@62.253.162.105...
>
> I would desire they are taught science properly (actually they should
revert
> back to separate science subjects phyics, chemistry, biology, geology
etc.)
> They should learn about evolution as a theory or hypothosis but also
> alternatives including creation.
I was actually thrown out of sunday school for questioning my local vicar
as I told him that he wasn't really stupid enough to believe that the world
was created in a week.... I have to say that many of my peers left when I
did... as if that was incorrect then how much else was...
I went to brownies and guides..and just would always change my promises to
say GODS instead of god.. I have to say I find that most so called non faith
schools do teach way to much religion in my mind. Every morning they sing
hymms and pray, but I leave that up to my son. He plays for a local church
football team..and myself and the Vicar do have quite good chats.. He tells
me why he has his faith and I tell him mine..and we question each other...
It makes for very interesting conversations..
I do think children should be taught that Wicca is an active religion even
if it is only glossed over. And that there is no evil involved.. I find it
very hard to explain to people what I believe in because it is always being
blackend in newspapers etc. When there is child abuse, if they can blame
some occult method somewhere they will. I have met many types of Pagans
and all are as shocked as the next person that anyone can hurt a child or
anyone else. I think that a proper educated version of Paganism would help
to dispell the myths of all the media hype. I mean... most kids think that
witchcraft is something that Sabrina the teenage witch does.. My son was
gutted that it didn't work like that.
I think that alot of work needs to be done so that children do not get a
blinkered view of religion.. They should be taught all.. and allowed to make
there own choices. There are flaws in every religion and we know no more
now than we did when people arrived on this planet. We have been around for
such a short time in the evolutionary clock of this world...
They call earthquakes, tornados and other similar events acts of God...
but there just this earth doing what it does... Call it god, call it
nature.. it is all the same. If everyone could accept that it is one power
that we all choose to give a different name too then less people would die
in the name of religion..
Right.. I am going to go and stop ranting now.. but it is something I do
get annoyed about. For example... in Ireland.. that poor man getting beaten
and nailed to wood..because he believed in the same god but slightly
different. Not all chritians are bad, nor muslims or most other religions.
Our biggest threat on this planet is ourselves... well that and a huge
asteriod from space. :)
lostin1999
"Carol T" <cteas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aq7890$cqa$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Resi
I think children should be assisted to learn what it is they
desire to learn. If and when they become interested in
religion and faith (whether that be Buddhist, Christian,
Muslim etc.), that is when they should learn. However, I don't
mean they should be instructed and I think all religions
should be presented from an objective and unbiased point of
view.
Resi
Steve Roberts
> There's one thing that we can never guarantee our children, and that is
that
> any of us, our relatives or friends will always be there for them
tomorrow.
> There's no greater gift that you can give to a child than to promise them
> with absolute certainty that there _will_ be someone there for them when
you
> are not around. Given with conviction this is to be _their_ belief not
Sorry Carol, but I can't regard it in any way as a "great gift" to tell my
children something I don't myself believe to be true....
Katie (4) has asked me "what is God?" - my reply was roughly "some people
believe that the world and everything in it was made and is looked after by
someone called God. I don't believe it myself". So far she's been happy to
have it left at that; it's not a big deal for her at present. At least she
knows different people believe different things. No doubt it will get more
complex as she gets older!
Steve
(! don't want to start a lengthy religous argument, which is very unlikely
to change anyone's beliefs, faith or lack of it. The thread was about "what
do we tell our children", so this is my answer to that.)
Carol T
"Steve Roberts" <steve.roberts.@materials.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aq8ai3$3m0$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
>>>>>>>>>>>>No doubt it will get more
> complex as she gets older!<<<<<<<
Yup, there's absolutely no question about that. 4 is a good age for a simple
and pure faith.
You have to look after their heart and soul beyond the times when you are
there to tell them what you personally believe. Maybe that's when they are
about to light a match and set fire to themselves in a sneaky moment, or
when their hand reaches out for a chocolate bar they don't have money for,
when they are in need of comfort but not from a parent's hand, or even if
you die tomorrow. That's difficult without anything to give them and that's
why believers see their faith in God as a gift to their children. They may
grow up to believe that the 'religion' is not for them, but religion itself
is not God's word and is man's making.
How does a parent cope with the prospect of leaving their child with such
emptiness? Do they tell them lies and promise them that they will always be
there for them?
Without God to guard over your child evil finds the quickest route into
their life, and it 'will' pick the moment when you aren't there for them and
when you least expect it. Without the wisdom and Grace, which are the tools
they need, to help them understand the limits to your capabilities as a
parent they will turn on you for failing them. That's simply some psychology
behind normal human behaviour.
God can take it, could you when the time comes? We thought that we could
once, but when faced with the cold reality it's not true. As the parent of a
child who has had something dreadful happen I am glad that she feels that it
was the evil in man that let her down and not God because she's had the sort
of solace from church we could never have given her by ourselves.
I'm also glad that all of our children, have a lot of fun times and out of
school quality companionship, but hey, that's just a side line the church
dabbles in.
Carol T
(my opinions are based on my experiences and not meant to offend anyone)
Steve Roberts
simple
> and pure faith.
Or absence of it !
> You have to look after their heart and soul beyond the times when you are
> there to tell them what you personally believe. Maybe that's when they are
> about to light a match and set fire to themselves in a sneaky moment,....
What I hope to instill in my children is honesty and respect for honesty,
and a solid belief in the merits of working to the greatest good of all
people (and living things and landscapes and anything delicate and precious,
I guess). You don't have to have belief in a God for that; I always find it
somewhat baffling that many religious believers insist that a decent moral
code has to be related to such a belief.
> How does a parent cope with the prospect of leaving their child with such
> emptiness? Do they tell them lies and promise them that they will always
be
> there for them?
Well, for me, to tell them that there is a God would be lying. And yes, they
know (in principle at least) that I'm going to die sometime.
Steve
(could drag on a bit, this discussion. I'll chop it after this. Maybe!)
Lauren
they
> know (in principle at least) that I'm going to die sometime.
My 6 year old looks down on me and her grandfather, because we want to be
burnt to ashes - she is so proud of the fact that she wants to be buried in
the ground and eaten by worms, just like her grandmother !
Lauren
Tweetie Pooh
Nov 2002 10:40:00a with news:kkNx9.753$P14.92401@newsfep2-
win.server.ntli.net:
> Right.. I am going to go and stop ranting now.. but it is something I do
> get annoyed about. For example... in Ireland.. that poor man getting beaten
> and nailed to wood..because he believed in the same god but slightly
> different.
We can certainly agree there. The idea that someone is wrong because their
expression of the same faith is different is completely contrary to the
teaching of Jesus.
madhouse
"Lauren" <richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3dc80c39$0$8508$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
to have a Viking burial.. :) And can't work out why it isn't legal.. he is
most put out by it.
Carol T
"Steve Roberts" <steve.robe...@materials.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aq8urb$f29$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
I always find it
> somewhat baffling that many religious believers insist that a decent moral
> code has to be related to such a belief.<<<<<<<<
I don't believe that, but I do believe for that philosophy to work the child
has to have the deepest of love and respect for their parents at 'all'
times, therefore psychologically they take the greatest falls when they are
let down themselves. Maybe it won't be today, maybe it will be when they are
middle aged and their parent's are in their 60's, but it does happen
eventually.
You _will_ let your daughter down eventually, there's no question about
that, it's just a matter of when and how often. How does a child whose heart
is not full of forgiveness and love cope with life's continuous knocks at
them without eventually becoming bitter?
How do you stop your love becoming a reciprocal dependency, so that they
can't suffer deep hurts over any incident, and also have all their spiritual
needs met too? Even if you were to give your love unconditionally, as I am
sure you do, how do you demonstrate to your child through the way you live
and your beliefs that they shouldn't distance themselves from their own
children to avoid the let downs they themselves will have?
>>>>>>> Well, for me, to tell them that there is a God would be lying. And
yes, they
> know (in principle at least) that I'm going to die sometime.<<<<<<<<
I think that all children are aware of that, but being aware does not answer
the questions, address the hurt or bring peace when it does. Only the purest
and simplest love that's always around them can be guaranteed not to cause
them harm today or in the future, that love can't be felt anywhere but
inside them spiritually. It's like pain, just because we can't physically
feel it in another person, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that it
shouldn't be acknowledged.
You could look at another way and you could air on the side of caution; if
you were to teach her about God and acknowledge Him with some conviction how
much harm would 'you' be doing to her? You would be; introducing her to a
philosophy that has been successfully tried and tested in the teaching of
children for 2000 years (all the great faiths use the Old Testament
remember), teaching her where to find the guidance she needs for the
complex situations that may fall at her feet, teaching her about the
history of great judicial systems, and some of the earliest recorded
material of how people dealt with moral issues fitting to their time,
showing her some of the greatest mysteries of life, for example; why Psalm
22 written hundreds of years before the new Testament maybe one of the
greatest prophecies of all, or how a relatively small book of ancient words
manages to have such power over people yet free them at the same time.
You would also be giving her the tools she may need if anyone should turn to
her for help in the future, and how the caring of others through using those
tools can be turned into a gift to herself. On top of this you would be
giving her a knowledge about a subject that she may enjoy debating and
sharing with anyone of the millions of others who know about it, and a
choice to make up her own mind of course. As I said, what possible harm
could you cause her against the possibility of denying her all of this?
If you are to teach her reverence for yourself alone you must live up to her
expectations of perfection without arrogance. It's a hard one to go alone
without a loving supportive network and the help at hand. It takes the most
amazing person to do it. For so may people Jesus fits the bill better for
that role in theirs and their children's lives.
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> You could look at another way and you could air on the side of
> caution; if you were to teach her about God and acknowledge Him
> with some conviction how much harm would 'you' be doing to her?
People at some stage in their life learn about other people's
beliefs. Asking someone to acknowledge God with conviction when
they do not believe he is exists would be contradicting their
own beliefs and effectively lying to their children much in the
same way that people often misrepresent Santa. One can teach
about other people's beliefs and at the same time, inform their
child that they do not hold these same beliefs.
You are asking another person to teach Christianity as though
they were Christian when they are not.
I am certain if the situation were reversed and you were asked
to teach your children about Buddhism as though you believed
that Buddha were the supreme being, you would immediately
deny this opportunity.
Not supporting Christianity and informing your own child of this
is not denying them an opportunity in the same way that not
supporting Buddhism is not denying your child an opportunity.
We must be honest with our own children and if do not believe
in a faith, why should we present it to them as though we do?
Resi
Steve Roberts
if
> you were to teach her about God and acknowledge Him with some conviction
how
> much harm would 'you' be doing to her?
Lots, to me and to her. I would, by my lights, be telling her a great
untruth, on at least two levels: firstly that God exists, and secondly that
I follow a religious system which in fact I don't. It would be like you
telling your children, with conviction, that you are an athiest or (picks
random example) a Zoroastrian, in case they wanted to give it a serious go
later on in life.
>You would be; introducing her to a
> philosophy that has been successfully tried and tested in the teaching of
> children for 2000 years (all the great faiths use the Old Testament
> remember),...<snip> how a relatively small book of ancient words
> manages to have such power over people yet free them at the same time.
This lot comes under "history" or "cultural studies"or"philosophy" as far as
I'm concerned. Powerful stuff. Definitely part of the curriculum. I don't
have to believe
the underlying theology though, nor does she.
> You would also be giving her the tools she may need if anyone should turn
to
> her for help in the future, <snip>. As I said, what possible harm
> could you cause her against the possibility of denying her all of this?
See above.
> If you are to teach her reverence for yourself alone you must live up to
her
> expectations of perfection without arrogance. <snip> For so may people
Jesus fits the bill better for
> that role in theirs and their children's lives.
But not for me. I just have to give it a go, and so the best I can; that
means acknowledging that I can't be perfect. So what ? I don't think Katie
believes I'm perfect either! -
Steve
Lauren
> her
> > expectations of perfection without arrogance. <snip> For so may people
> Jesus fits the bill better for
> > that role in theirs and their children's lives.
>
> But not for me. I just have to give it a go, and so the best I can; that
> means acknowledging that I can't be perfect. So what ? I don't think Katie
> believes I'm perfect either! -
>
> Steve
I cannot think of anything worse than teaching your child that you are a
liar. To teach them Christianity, and to pick it apparently at random,
seeing as I am not a Christian, and they know I am not, just in case they
fancy being a Christian later in life ? Of course they'll find out about
various religions, both at school and at home, but they'll learn about them
as interesting bits of history and philosophy, and they will always be
preceded by "We do not believe this, but...."
Lauren
madhouse
>
> You could look at another way and you could air on the side of caution;
if
> you were to teach her about God and acknowledge Him with some conviction
how
> much harm would 'you' be doing to her?
I would think that any parent doing that would be doing real harm. IF
you don't believe in it. Why pretend that you do? It would be extremly
stupid. I do teach my children that I follow a ancient religion. That
doesn't mean I tell them that Christianity is a load of stories strung
together to make a religion to replace the old one.
You would be; introducing her to a
> philosophy that has been successfully tried and tested in the teaching of
> children for 2000 years (all the great faiths use the Old Testament
> remember
Mine doesn't..and many religions have there own sacred books. Ancient
Egyptians did have the three deity's though similar to the Father, son and
the Holy ghost. ( Hope I got that right, long time since I have had to
remember) I know it was Isis but I can't remember exactly what it is.. but
also in what I follow we have similar things.
Yes.. your a Christian and believe this... but no one is letting their
children down by not telling them about a god that they do not believe in.
My children do not believe in anyway shape or form that the world was
created in 7 days..( yes I know it is 6 with a day of rest) I teach my
children about the world.. continental drift. Evolution. I have also gone
as far as explaining that the earth does have a limited life span..due to
the sun and the fact that it is going to expand and take our universe with
it.
Now you could tell me that all this is all hearsay, but it is no more
than you telling me that what the bible says is true. The earth is so much
older than the people and everything else on the planet. Even the mountains
are new really compared to the actual planet. Slowly over millions and
billions of years the earth was shaped. It is still shaping now. The
Atlantic ocean gets 9cm wider every single year... we know this.. it is
measurable.
I don't think anyone can say that you are harming your children just by
not telling them about a belief.
thanks...
Carol T
> But not for me. I just have to give it a go, and so the best I can; that
> means acknowledging that I can't be perfect. So what ? I don't think Katie
> believes I'm perfect either!
Life is so simple and sweet when they are 4.
Carol T
Steve Roberts
Lauren
one asked
> me to... it's just hard not to :-)
>
> Liz
The number of times I start replying to a religious thread and then just say
noooooooooo, it's not worth it !!
It's just soo offensive they way she implied that the only alternative to
teaching your children there is a God, is teaching them that you are their
god !!!
No one ever worries about offending atheists, do they ?
Lauren
Steve Roberts
> teaching your children there is a God, is teaching them that you are their
> god !!!
>
on me (in a "gut" sense rather than the purely intellectual similar opinion
I'd had for some time) that this is where that strong internal impulse to
have a god of some kind comes from.
The big, powerful person/people who look after everything, know everything,
chase the nasties away, pick you up and love you no matter what.... all
this on a constant basis from birth. No wonder a lot of adults believe
deeply there has to be something like that for them even when they've grown
up. No doubt Freud or Jung have a thing or two to say about it.
Steve
Lauren
Well, exactly, yet it is *us* who got criticised because our children don't
need the crutch ?
Lauren
H Duffy
"LizR" <rea...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:09vksus3qg148f84i...@4ax.com...
> I was thinking about this thread earlier today & I thought I could
remember something
> recently about brain chemicals being responsible for religious faith.
Either that or
> a gene .... Anyone remember?
There is an area quite deep in the brain which, when stimulated, causes
various sensations generally linked to religious experiences; A feeling of
there being someone "present", the sort of "tunnel of light" near-death-type
stuff, and so on.
This has led some scientists to believe that religious experiences and
religious faith itself is caused by the brain and that it has some sort of
evolutionary value.
H
Steve Roberts
>
> I'd know what I was on about if my brain had any chemicals left at all:-)
>
> Liz
Put some in then! C2.H5.OH would be a good "starter for 10". Steve
p_rone
> Well, exactly, yet it is *us* who got criticised because our
children don't
> need the crutch ?
"Why should you force your own non-belief on people".
QED.
________________________________________________________________
Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com
Lauren
news:20021107121...@donotreply.com...
> Lauren wrote:
> > Well, exactly, yet it is *us* who got criticised because our
> children don't
> > need the crutch ?
>
> "Why should you force your own non-belief on people".
>
> QED.
I don't know why I'm bothering, but - what ?
Lauren
Steve Roberts
news:20021107121...@donotreply.com...
> > Well, exactly, yet it is *us* who got criticised because our
> children don't
> > need the crutch ?
>
> "Why should you force your own non-belief on people".
>
> QED.
Just what "Quod" est demonstrandum by this remark? Or am I being dim?
Steve
Danny Colyer
> I was thinking about this thread earlier today & I thought I could
remember something
> recently about brain chemicals being responsible for religious faith.
Either that or
> a gene .... Anyone remember?
A quick search of the archives at http://www.newscientist.com found an
article printed in the 21/04/01 issue headed "In search of God". It reports
evidence of an association between activity in the parietal lobe and
religious experiences. In fact, one researcher was able use a magnetic
field to induce subjects to feel "a spectral presence in the room with
them".
ISTR a more recent article linking religious tendencies to a particular
neurochemical (dopamine IIRC, or more likely serotonin). But I couldn't
find that one. The closest I found was an article from 30/06/01 headed
"Secrets of an acid head", about drug induced hallucination.
--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny )
Recumbent cycle page: http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
Carol T
"Resi" <re...@creamcow.com> wrote in message
news:3DC92A14...@creamcow.com...
> You are asking another person to teach Christianity as though
> they were Christian when they are not.
No, go back though my posts. A belief in God!
I am the first to accept that not all people who believe in God are
actually Christians. I did say that all the great faiths are founded in the
Old Testament (Jesus is not there, as of yet).
I teach my children that Queen Victoria was born in 1837 and during her
reign John Russell was one of the Prime Ministers who was a Liberal, but she
herself preferred the Conservatives. How do I know this is true?
> I am certain if the situation were reversed and you were asked
> to teach your children about Buddhism as though you believed
> that Buddha were the supreme being, you would immediately
> deny this opportunity.<<<<<<<<
If Buddha was the supreme being he would in fact be God anyway. So no, this
opportunity wouldn't be denied as Buddhism would then only be one of the
supporting religions of the existence of God. Interestingly there would be
an idyllic image of God if the Buddha was the supreme being. In which case
people would have their vision clouded and there would be people who would
be excluded by their own revulsion of the image.
Buddhism is a philosophy or 'way of life'. Philosophy is the love of wisdom.
God is not adverse to the love of wisdom, far from it, the first verses of
proverbs discusses the value of wisdom and its place in our lives, and in
many other parts of the Bible. It is not a substitute for the love of God or
having a personal relationship with God.
Buddhism teaches compassion for others as a soul reward for the individual
giving it, it asks of followers to reach an empathy for others through
wisdom. However, compassion can be arrogant if the individual giving it is
measuring its success themselves so that they can be at peace with their
faith. Spontaneous compassion through God's work does not require wisdom, it
can happen between many faiths and cross cultures, it can come from the hand
of a 4 year old or even a mentally retarded person. All that's required is a
very simple love of God.
Carol T
"madhouse" <darren...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Psgy9.1248$UM3....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That
> doesn't mean I tell them that Christianity is a load of stories strung
> together to make a religion to replace the old one.<<<<<<<<<
It's not, Jesus was a Jew, He taught what he believed was truth, that His
Jewish faith was in fact for everyone regardless of who they were, Gentiles
(non Jews) included. He did it at a time when His life was put in grave
danger. He gave evidence to the Jewish priests, and in many cases He
delivered God's power into their hands as they were enlightened to God's
work, it was then these people who carried on His work after His death.
There was nothing for them to gain pesonally at the time through putting
their life on the line after Jesus had died. At no time did He say
Christianity was a replacement for the what he was taught as a Jew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but no one is letting their
> children down by not telling them about a god that they do not believe in.
> My children do not believe in anyway shape or form that the world was
> created in 7 days..<<<<<<<<<<<<
No neither do mine, but they do understand the values behind the allegorical
teaching that's stood the test of time from the 'beginning right through
until the end' of their days. Yesterday's world put into today's language
would have been put in the bin thousands of years ago. I wouldn't expect a
science seeped explanation for creation myself in the context of each age
it's been through.
>>>>>>>>>>>>( yes I know it is 6 with a day of rest) I teach my
> children about the world.. continental drift. Evolution. I have also gone
> as far as explaining that the earth does have a limited life span..due to
> the sun and the fact that it is going to expand and take our universe with
> it.
> Now you could tell me that all this is all hearsay, but it is no more
> than you telling me that what the bible says is true.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Far from it, I can't prove that the world will end anymore than you can, but
my children have been taught about it as a future possibility. No scientist
could ever claim that they are absolutely right about what they say, as all
science can be refuted in the end, and it is certainly not written in stone.
Personally I look forward to the day scientist turn up the multitude of
missing fossils between the fishes and the man in the same profusion they
turn up dinosaur fossils. The theoretical science is there, the evidence is
a little astray as yet. The two are far from fitting ! Science actually
knows very little in the face of the changing, interrelating activities of
everything around us.
>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone can say that you are harming your children
just by
> not telling them about a belief.<<<<<<<<<
A belief in the science you know about does not fill them with the Holy
Spirit unfortunately. The philosophy is that a child needs to be taken
before God as a child to come before God as an adult. However, there are
adults who will not be consciously aware of this act and maybe there are
adults who come to God through other routes. The church, any church, needs
to be a free and comfortable place for them to go at any time in their life
and parents can help ease the discomfort in anticipation of them wanting
this choice in their future. Should they chose God along side science, or
whatever subject takes their fancy, they then have the 'choice' of giving up
God if it they so chose. No one is a prisoner in an act of faith, they are
always free to walk away at anytime.
Carol T
> For them, maybe - for the parents - no chance ! Steve
Let's say it gets more interesting and involved as they get older.
Carol T
Carol T
> It's just soo offensive they way she
'She'???? I am not actually in the third person, but I'm sure you meant no
intentional offence, any more than I would have.
"implied that the only alternative to
teaching your children there is a God, is teaching them that you are their
god !!!"
It wasn't my intention for you to read it as an implication, more a
discussion of how difficult it is to live up to perfection in a child's
eyes, a child who has nothing higher to measure against. It's hard to go it
alone in that role, it's a fact. I certainly wouldn't suggest to any parent
that they teach their child that they _are_ the child's god.
Carol T
Lauren
>
> "Lauren" <richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:3dca3be5$0$1293$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
>
> > It's just soo offensive they way she
>
> 'She'???? I am not actually in the third person, but I'm sure you meant no
> intentional offence, any more than I would have.
Not a smidgeon more than you would. You are female, aren't you ? So what is
wrong with 'she' ?
> "implied that the only alternative to
> teaching your children there is a God, is teaching them that you are their
> god !!!"
>
> It wasn't my intention for you to read it as an implication, more a
> discussion of how difficult it is to live up to perfection in a child's
> eyes, a child who has nothing higher to measure against. It's hard to go
it
> alone in that role, it's a fact. I certainly wouldn't suggest to any
parent
> that they teach their child that they _are_ the child's god.
>
> Carol T
You said it again - unless you tell your child there is a god, you will have
to be the "....perfection in a child's eyes, a child who has nothing higher
to measure against..." i.e a god replacement - i.e. their God.
I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to tell my children I am perfect.
They know I can be silly, angry, or just plain wrong. They know I am a
person. They also know that this is as good as it gets. There is no god.
I have always found it immensely comforting that I am doing what I can to do
the right thing - that I am being the best person I can - *because* it is
the right thing, even though I will soon be just ashes sprinkled in the
Thames.
If I thought there was anyone up there watching and judging me - that I was
trying to do 'right' for some wrathful God who cheerfully smites us down and
lets us gas, poison, shoot and dissect each other - well how insignificant
does that make me ? A puppet - a nothing.
Lauren
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In this town
> one "faith" secondary has 4 places a year for children from other faiths,
and don't
> even bother phoning for the prospectus if you don't believe in god.
Imagine if we
> started a school and had 4 places for religious children, but Christians
needn't
> bother applying!<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You should have phoned for a prospectus and you could have applied for a
place for your child. Christian schools will hear with a fair and open mind
your reasons for believing that your child will benefit from the way they
teach and from having a place at the school. You mustn't assume that they
would discriminate against your child for not being a Christian.
They might have concerns for your child's welfare if you are unlikely to
allow her/him to socialise during after school activities, as good peer
relationships are ultimately very important in successful teaching. They
wouldn't want your child to be unhappy at all, that's not the point of
Christian teaching methods.
One of our church's most active and devoted members couldn't get his
children into the church school, this was despite an appeal supported by
senior clergy. The school itself will be guided by prayer in their decision
making alongside discussions about the individual child's future. Believe me
there is more time and consideration given to every single applicant to a
church school than the state will ever give and every child will be prayed
for.
Anyway, why would anyone want to send their child to a school that they feel
has nothing to give and that they won't fit into, that doesn't make sense.
If what a church school has to give is success then much of that success is
through the way they teach and support the family's way of life and
religious values. Would you give your child a box of chocolates and expect
them to be content with the wrapping only?
Please don't be put off applying for any school that you feel will be of
most benefit to your child, whether it's a state school or a church school.
Carol T
Carol T
> >>>>>>>>>perfection in a child's eyes, a child who has nothing higher
> to measure against..." i.e a god replacement - i.e. their God.<<<<<<<<
To tell a child that you are not perfect, you have to teach them what
perfection is for them to grasp an understanding of it. After that you take
them beyond yourself. As you are already a great person in their eyes you
are in effect telling them that there is someone much greater than you are
out there. Which 'human' would you place on that pedestal as a measure of
perfection for your child and why?
>>>>>>>> They also know that this is as good as it gets. There is no
god.<<<<<<<<<<<
How did you prove to them that there is no God?
> If I thought there was anyone up there watching and judging me - that I
was
> trying to do 'right' for some wrathful God who cheerfully smites us down
and
> lets us gas, poison, shoot and dissect each other -
Freewill ultimately results in some harm to others. To take away freewill to
stop that harm would be a conflict within a loving relationship. You do not
control and restrain what you love and at the same time expect unconditional
love back, it simply wouldn't work in a 2 way relationship. Hence what we
do, what is in our environment, and what harms us is all the productivity of
mankind's free hand, not God's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>well how insignificant
> does that make me ? A puppet - a nothing.<<<<<<<<<<<
No person is insignificant, each and everyone of us has a significant effect
on the other in some way. It's impossible _not_ to be insignificant.
Carol T
(this is my own opinion and not meant to offend anyone)
H Duffy
>
> "Lauren" <richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:3dcaf5b4$0$13368
>
> > >>>>>>>>>perfection in a child's eyes, a child who has nothing higher
> > to measure against..." i.e a god replacement - i.e. their God.<<<<<<<<
>
> To tell a child that you are not perfect, you have to teach them what
> perfection is for them to grasp an understanding of it. After that you
take
> them beyond yourself. As you are already a great person in their eyes you
> are in effect telling them that there is someone much greater than you are
> out there. Which 'human' would you place on that pedestal as a measure of
> perfection for your child and why?
Why do you need to place anyone on a pedestal in order to teach your kids
that you're not perfect? Why not just explain that nobody's perfect, that
everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but that we should all try to do out best
to be good people anyway?
> >>>>>>>> They also know that this is as good as it gets. There is no
> god.<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> How did you prove to them that there is no God?
You do't; there's no need to. If they decide, as they grow up, that they
believe in od and want to follow a religion, that's their choice.
Just to throw this question back at you, how do _you_ prove to _your_
children that there _is_ a God?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>well how insignificant
> > does that make me ? A puppet - a nothing.<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> No person is insignificant, each and everyone of us has a significant
effect
> on the other in some way. It's impossible _not_ to be insignificant.
"No person is insignificant" ... "It's impossible _not_ to be
insignificant"? Have I misunderstood, or are you directly contradicting
yourself?
H
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> "Resi" <re...@creamcow.com> wrote in message
> news:3DC92A14...@creamcow.com...
> > You are asking another person to teach Christianity as though
> > they were Christian when they are not.
> No, go back though my posts. A belief in God!
A believer of Christ is referred to as a "Christian". This does
not mean they must belong to a church or practise in the religious
sense. However, if you would like me to rephrase, "You are asking
another person to teach a belief in God as though they believed in
God themselves".
> I teach my children that Queen Victoria was born in 1837 and
> during her reign John Russell was one of the Prime Ministers
> who was a Liberal, but she herself preferred the Conservatives.
> How do I know this is true?
If you are uncertain as to the truth of your teachings, let your
child know this. Perhaps you could begin your sentence with
"It is my understanding based on a book/word of mouth etc. that
the following is a fact but this could be untrue".
> > I am certain if the situation were reversed and you were asked
> > to teach your children about Buddhism as though you believed
> > that Buddha were the supreme being, you would immediately
> > deny this opportunity.<<<<<<<<
> If Buddha was the supreme being he would in fact be God anyway.
> So no, this opportunity wouldn't be denied as Buddhism would then
> only be one of the supporting religions of the existence of God.
> Interestingly there would be an idyllic image of God if the Buddha
> was the supreme being. In which case people would have their vision
> clouded and there would be people who would be excluded by their
> own revulsion of the image.
You're avoiding the statement. If you did not believe that
Buddha were the supreme being, you would not want to preach
Buddhism to your children.
> Buddhism is a philosophy or 'way of life'. Philosophy is the
> love of wisdom. God is not adverse to the love of wisdom, far
> from it, the first verses of proverbs discusses the value of
> wisdom and its place in our lives, and in many other parts of
> the Bible. It is not a substitute for the love of God or
> having a personal relationship with God.
I will not entertain a discussion on your beliefs. My point
is simply that you asked people to lie to their children.
What you asked people to do was not very well thought through.
> Buddhism teaches compassion for others as a soul reward for the
> individual giving it, it asks of followers to reach an empathy
> for others through wisdom. However, compassion can be arrogant if
> the individual giving it is measuring its success themselves so
> that they can be at peace with their faith. Spontaneous compassion
> through God's work does not require wisdom, it can happen between
> many faiths and cross cultures, it can come from the hand of a 4
> year old or even a mentally retarded person. All that's required
> is a very simple love of God.
Again, this is your belief but not necessarily the beliefs of
others. Respect that other people have different beliefs and
that they will not lie to their children to uphold your beliefs.
Resi
Resi
Lauren wrote:
> You said it again - unless you tell your child there is a god, you
> will have to be the "....perfection in a child's eyes, a child who
> has nothing higher to measure against..." i.e a god replacement -
> i.e. their God.
I agree. I did not believe in any "God" as a child. I did not
expect anyone to take the role of God. I did not expect my
parents to be perfect. Even most of the people who do believe
in God today, did not look up to God as children.
> I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to tell my children I am
> perfect. They know I can be silly, angry, or just plain wrong.
> They know I am a person. They also know that this is as good as it
> gets. There is no god.
And that is perfectly natural.
Resi
H Duffy
> On Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:04:38 -0000, "H Duffy" <hester...@psy.ox.ac.uk>
wrote:
> >There is an area quite deep in the brain which, when stimulated, causes
> >various sensations generally linked to religious experiences; A feeling
of
> >there being someone "present", the sort of "tunnel of light"
near-death-type
> >stuff, and so on.
> >This has led some scientists to believe that religious experiences and
> >religious faith itself is caused by the brain and that it has some sort
of
> >evolutionary value.
>
> I suppose it encourages us to breed. Many religions seem to encourage the
creation of
> new customers in this way:-) I doubt that's it though, not really direct
cause and
> effect. Probably a way of keeping us alive and half-way sane when we were
sitting in
> a damp cave on a day like today, gnawing a mammoth-burger and trying to
stop the kids
> fighting.
Yep, I think it's entirely possible that it helps to create social bonds,
which encourage us to support and help each other, thus helping us to
survive and breed more.
Of course, it's also possible that it's entirely "accidental" and that it
isn't in any way useful, like the appendix...
H
Tweetie Pooh
01:45:33p with news:6pfnsu87u5uagk5le...@4ax.com:
> With ice and a slice:-)
>
> Liz
> P.S. That might be what caused the problem in the first place:-)
> ~~
> lizex"at"blueyonderdotcodotuk
>
Ice and lemon in a glass of 1989 burgandy -- shudder!!
Jenn
<cteas...@hotmail.com> writes
>Anyway, why would anyone want to send their child to a school that they feel
>has nothing to give and that they won't fit into, that doesn't make sense.
>If what a church school has to give is success then much of that success is
>through the way they teach and support the family's way of life and
>religious values. Would you give your child a box of chocolates and expect
>them to be content with the wrapping only?
>
>Please don't be put off applying for any school that you feel will be of
>most benefit to your child, whether it's a state school or a church school.
>
>Carol T
In my area the two "best" schools are both faith schools. They have the
nicest atmosphere, the best ofsted reports, the best sat results and
parents of the children there seem happiest with the standard of their
education. They are also the two smallest schools, which I feel is a
big factor in their success. Those were my reasons for wanting DS to go
there if possible.
We applied in good time (by DS's first birthday), when we got the list
of criteria for consideration early this year (or was it late last
year?) it stated that there were 35 places available, and then gave the
criteria for consideration for those places. We were required to
provide a "faith leader" who could confirm that either parent had
attended religious celebration at least 3 out of 4 weeks for the last
five years. The criteria were something like :
Both parents have attended CofE church at least 3 out of 4 weeks for the
last 5 years.
One parent has attended CofE church at least 3 out of 4 weeks for the
last 5 years.
Both parents have attended One of CofE churches at least 3 out of 4
weeks for the last 3 years.
One parent has attended CofE church at least 3 out of 4 weeks for the
last 3 years.
Both parents have attended allied Christian faiths churches at least 3
out of 4 weeks for the last 5 years.
One parent has attended allied Christian faiths churches at least 3 out
of 4 weeks for the last 5 years.
Both parents have attended allied Christian faiths churches at least 3
out of 4 weeks for the last 3 years.
One parent has attended allied Christian faiths churches at least 3 out
of 4 weeks for the last 3 years.
The both / one for one year cofe, cafc. Then both / one 5,3,1 year
other faith as confirmed by faith leader, THEN sibling in the school (I
was amazed it was so low on the list). Then came disabilities requiring
a school near to home for either child or parent, and finally they asked
for other reasons you feel important in their considerations.
The accompanying letter made it clear that these would be looked at in
the order given, and there was a from for the faith leader to complete
(and a note saying no-one would be considered without it under the first
x criteria.)
Given the schools both stand clearly at the top of the tree
educationally here they are both hugely over subscribed - I doubt that
they even get to criteria 2, let alone to the bottom of the list!
--
Jenn
UK
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>>> You are wrong. I phoned a local church primary and the head told
me my child wouldn't
> get in unless he was a catholic. They're over-subscribed and, as they're a
catholic
> school, they deal with this by not admitting non-catholics at all.
<<<<<<<<<<
Catholics are Christian's too and have the same Christian values as Cof E
schools. There is no reason for the board of Governors to not hear you out.
I would certainly take it further than the phone and ask for an interview
with the head so that I could put my case forward, even to the point of
requesting to see a Governor.
>>>>>>>>>> Here it's strictly a points system. You have to prove regular
church attendance for 3
> years for the parents and 2 years for the child ... minimum.<<<<<<<<<<
Even with a points system it is ultimately down to how the parent and child
present their individual case. We had a boy in our junior school whose
parent's had never put foot into the church, but he got a place in the
church senior school on his own love of God, and it was much against his
parent's original wishes because they believed it would be too expensive and
a hassle for them.
The church are wise to parents who become Christian's in the 12 months +
prior to their child starting senior school, they are even aware of people
who are prepared to put in a long stint too. I suspect that there are
similar happenings in other faith schools, although it's a little difficult
to suddenly become a Jew. It's perfectly acceptable for a family to be
Christian and to have their worship in their own homes and then get into a
church school, but it's a desire that comes across spiritually when they
apply. These families will have no points at all for attending church.
>>>>>>>>>>>>The point is, that in a city with failing schools
> and the government breathing down the neck of the LEA, places at one of
the few
> decent secondary schools are being allocated not by the appropriateness of
the
> education offered to the child in question, but on the parents' choice of
lifestyle.
> It's a scandal, it doesn't happen in the USA or in mainland Europe and it
shouldn't
> happen here.<<<<<<<<<<<
But if the school is a Christian school supported by Christian funding and
love then surely it's their prerogative to be concerned with a child's
lifestyle over their educational abilities ? I can't really make sense of
your argument. To me people sometimes seem to imply that they only want the
part of Christianity that will benefit their child, which is also the very
thing they also want to deny. As all children across the country work to a
National Curriculum and teachers have to hold education degrees to the same
standards the _only_ difference can possibly be the Christian way of life
and their belief in God that is supporting the school. In which case a non
Christian would want to run a mile and certainly not be bitter that they
couldn't get into the school, regardless of how decent they consider it to
be. If their non-Christian values are strong their child will thrive just as
well in other schools and they will have more benefit from not being placed
in a conflicting situation between home and what their peers believe.
If the largest school in our district is turning out the best results
overall as a result of choosing their children and families by their love of
God then what's wrong in it and why should the education aspect of the other
schools in the area not be as good?
>>>>>>>>> To me, the meat and veg of school life is the maths, English,
geography etc etc. The
> gravy is the music, art etc. Religion should be the sugar with the coffee
... an
> optional "vice" that remains in the personal realm<<<<<<<<<<<
That's funny, because my Christian friends and I would put that whole list
the other way around.
I am glad that you won't be put off applying, but if your child doesn't get
a place please don't think that someone has judged your child of lesser
worth than a child from a Christian family. I don't think that just
believing it is a decent school is enough to support your application
though.
Carol T
Carol T
"Jenn" <je...@shadowdale.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3MQKTGAv...@shadowdale.demon.co.uk...
> In article <aqeu7c$33b$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>, Carol T
> In my area the two "best" schools are both faith schools.
It is often true across the country.
>>>>>>>>>They are also the two smallest schools, which I feel is a
> big factor in their success. Those were my reasons for wanting DS to go
> there if possible.<<<<<<<<<<<
In our county the faith school is the largest school in the county and one
of the largest Christian schools in the country, they still do extremely
well and the children are very happy. Pastoral care is very good inside and
outside school hours and they take their responsibilities to children in
difficulty seriously too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the schools both stand clearly at the top of the tree
> educationally here they are both hugely over subscribed - I doubt that
> they even get to criteria 2, let alone to the bottom of the
list!<<<<<<<<<<<
But they will not put an educationally gifted child above a child with a
good case for attending the school on their faith values alone. So there is
no reason for them to be at the 'top of the tree' as they are 'more' likely
to take a child who may have difficulties than any other school. If their
faith is what has put them at the top of the tree, then it will be their
faith that keeps them there, educational achievements are consequential..
In some areas religious organisations will put in considerable amounts of
time, money and devotion in setting up a school without any inclination on
how the children that go there will perform educationally. It is their
religious values that are at the top of their agenda.
However, there's nothing to stop non faith parents getting together and
doing the same thing. Although at some point they would need some common
values to keep themselves unified in their aims of ensuring that the school
grows for future generations.
Carol T
Carol T
"H Duffy" <hester...@psy.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aqg6rj$9nd5v$1...@ID-124468.news.dfncis.de...
> Why do you need to place anyone on a pedestal in order to teach your kids
> that you're not perfect?
How would you explain who is perfect to them and what perfection is? Is it
good enough to say strive to be like me, your parent, and then on the other
hand tell them you are far from perfect. Christian children are taught to
strive to live as Jesus would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not just explain that nobody's perfect, that
> everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but that we should all try to do out
best
> to be good people anyway?<<<<<<<<<<<<
Religion teaches much the same thing, except that God is perfection and His
word is the basis for a good way of life.
> > How did you prove to them that there is no God?
>
> You do't; there's no need to. If they decide, as they grow up, that they
> believe in od and want to follow a religion, that's their
choice.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
They can be interested in Maths and find a book in the library by following
their nose, but without that book in their hand, and a good and inspiring
teacher to show them the value of this tool they would have to be a truly
gifted child to make any more of their interest. Having faith and owning a
Bible is no different and it is quite a struggle sometimes.
How is your child going to make the 'choice' of following the philosophy
behind any passages in the Bible if s/he never hears it, let alone gets the
opportunity to discuss it with others? Deep down you must know that you are
not really giving them any choice at all.
>>>> Just to throw this question back at you, how do _you_ prove to _your_
> children that there _is_ a God?<<<
We don't have to, we see it in things they do, things they say, questions
they ask and so forth. Whilst they might have a great struggle sticking to
the requirements of the text in today's world, there's no question or
struggle about the writer of them.
>>>>>>>>>Have I misunderstood, or are you directly contradicting
> yourself?<<<<<<<<
No, I miss typed, sorry. Everyone is significant to the life of each other.
Here's a lot of choice for those who are interested
http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html
Carol T
Lauren
>
> "H Duffy" <hester...@psy.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:aqg6rj$9nd5v$1...@ID-124468.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > Why do you need to place anyone on a pedestal in order to teach your
kids
> > that you're not perfect?
>
> How would you explain who is perfect to them and what perfection is? Is
it
> good enough to say strive to be like me, your parent, and then on the
other
> hand tell them you are far from perfect. Christian children are taught
to
> strive to live as Jesus would.
Snowflakes are perfect. The Headingly test in 1981 was perfect. People are
not, and never can be - and this is OK. I absolutely say "strive to be like
me - a person who is doing their best - which is admirable". And what are
Christian children taught in Northern Ireland ?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not just explain that nobody's perfect, that
> > everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but that we should all try to do out
> best
> > to be good people anyway?<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Religion teaches much the same thing, except that God is perfection and
His
> word is the basis for a good way of life.
God is perfection. A just and benevolent God. He does no worng. His Son died
for us, so that we will sin no more. Just read about Auschwitz.
> How is your child going to make the 'choice' of following the philosophy
> behind any passages in the Bible if s/he never hears it, let alone gets
the
> opportunity to discuss it with others? Deep down you must know that you
are
> not really giving them any choice at all.
I would be heartbroken if my children decided to follow any religion, I
would feel I had failed them - as, I'm sure, you would if your children
rejected *your* teaching.
> >>>> Just to throw this question back at you, how do _you_ prove to _your_
> > children that there _is_ a God?<<<
>
> We don't have to, we see it in things they do, things they say, questions
> they ask and so forth. Whilst they might have a great struggle sticking to
> the requirements of the text in today's world, there's no question or
> struggle about the writer of them.
"We don't have to, we see it in things they do" ? Major eye-watering cop-out
! If you guys invent a God, it is up to you to prove He exists.
Oh, Christians give me tooth ache !
But at least they just get very concerned for me, they don't blow us both up
! Well, these days anyway, don't mention the South American babies who were
baptised and murdered to go straight to heaven.
And never mention the Spanish Inquisition - it wasn't all comfy cushions !
Lauren
madhouse
they are perfectly happy with it..
Science gives me all I need.
"Carol T" <cteas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aqepk5$ei6$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
Nick Upson
> But if the school is a Christian school supported by Christian funding and
> love then surely it's their prerogative to be concerned with a child's
> lifestyle over their educational abilities ? I
but it isn't. Unless this is a private Christian school, which I don't think
it is from the descriptions, they are paid by the government to educate.
So our taxes pay for christian-biased teaching.
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> How would you explain who is perfect to them and what perfection
> is? Is it good enough to say strive to be like me, your parent,
> and then on the other hand tell them you are far from perfect.
I don't think a point of comparison is necessary.
> Christian children are taught to strive to live as Jesus would.
First of all, there is no external body who decides who is a
Christian and who is not. The only thing tying all Christians
together is an overall belief and a basic set of values. Beyond
this, you then experience a whole spectrum of people from your
Sunday Christians at one end of the scale who have never picked
up a bible in their life yet go to Church routinely every Sunday
and call themselves a Christian to the other end of the scale
including prophets, evangelists, faith healers etc. who are very
active in their faith and belief. Per the spectrum as described
above, certainly people towards the latter end of the spectrum
are striving to live as Jesus but there are probably just as many
who would have no idea how Jesus would act in a particular
situation at the other end of the spectrum.
The bible teaches to not be disrespectful to your body (body
is a temple) yet the vast majority of people calling themselves
Christians are eating junk including genetically modified foods,
taking drugs and dangerous synthetic medications including
vaccinations etc. The vast majority of Christians aren't
particularly involved in their child's education and then wonder
why their child has grown up with such "worldly" views. The
bible instructs that the head of family is responsible for the
family yet most families sub out this responsibility to the
State or some other form of commercial institution at the first
opportunity.
Every Christian has a different interpretation of what it means
to be Christian and so while each individual may strive to teach
their child to live as Jesus would, how many of them truly succeed?
> They can be interested in Maths and find a book in the library by
> following their nose, but without that book in their hand, and a
> good and inspiring teacher to show them the value of this tool
> they would have to be a truly gifted child to make any more of
> their interest.
I think you're overstating the role of the educational teacher.
I think there are times where a more knowledgeable source can
assist but most experts in their field are self taught and this
applies right across the board from artists to engineers. Most
of the directors and CEO's of Fortune 500 companies didn't even
graduate from school.
> Having faith and owning a Bible is no different and it is quite a
> struggle sometimes.
Owning a bible is a struggle?
> How is your child going to make the 'choice' of following the
> philosophy behind any passages in the Bible if s/he never hears
> it, let alone gets the opportunity to discuss it with others?
> Deep down you must know that you are not really giving them any
> choice at all.
Most people in this thread and most people in general are exposed
to different philosophies and belief systems during their childhood
and adult life. It would be very difficult for a child to get
through their entire childhood without learning about various
religions.
If atheist parents were to expose their children to Christianity,
they would expose their children to other religions and belief
systems also which is counter to your objectives. If a parent
did not believe in God, it seems illogical that they would ONLY
teach their child about one philosophy. It seems more likely
that they would teach their children about multiple philosophies.
This is what I would do.
Resi
H Duffy
>
> "H Duffy" <hester...@psy.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:aqg6rj$9nd5v$1...@ID-124468.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > Why do you need to place anyone on a pedestal in order to teach your
kids
> > that you're not perfect?
>
> How would you explain who is perfect to them and what perfection is?
If they know the difference between being good and being bad, between
getting it right, and making a mistake, then that's all you need. You teach
them to try their best to be good,a nd to get it right, all the time. And at
the same time, you teach them that no-one is perfect (I really don't
understand why you think children need a template of perfection), and that
mistakes can be forgiven.
> Is it
> good enough to say strive to be like me, your parent, and then on the
other
> hand tell them you are far from perfect.
It's realistic, at any rate.
> Christian children are taught to
> strive to live as Jesus would.
So teach them to do the same,; you don't actully have to say "Jesus really
was the son of God", you just teach them to be the best person that they can
be.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why not just explain that nobody's perfect, that
> > everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but that we should all try to do out
> best
> > to be good people anyway?<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Religion teaches much the same thing, except that God is perfection and
His
> word is the basis for a good way of life.
Well, _some_ of his words. What do you do about the bits of the Bible where
God smites people mercilessly, or encourages his chosen people to kill and
rape?
> > > How did you prove to them that there is no God?
> >
> > You do't; there's no need to. If they decide, as they grow up, that they
> > believe in od and want to follow a religion, that's their
> choice.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> They can be interested in Maths and find a book in the library by
following
> their nose, but without that book in their hand, and a good and inspiring
> teacher to show them the value of this tool they would have to be a truly
> gifted child to make any more of their interest. Having faith and owning a
> Bible is no different and it is quite a struggle sometimes.
There are plenty of examples of goodness in the world that don't depend on
the Bible. To suggest that it's not possible, or even not easy, to be a good
person without religion is an insult to all the good, non-religious people
out there, myself included.
> How is your child going to make the 'choice' of following the philosophy
> behind any passages in the Bible if s/he never hears it, let alone gets
the
> opportunity to discuss it with others? Deep down you must know that you
are
> not really giving them any choice at all.
Children shuld learn a bit about _all_ the major religions. But they don't
have to be indoctrinated. And to say that being pushed towards Christianity
gives them more of a choice than _not_ pushing them towards Cristianity is
just silly.
> >>>> Just to throw this question back at you, how do _you_ prove to _your_
> > children that there _is_ a God?<<<
>
> We don't have to, we see it in things they do, things they say, questions
> they ask and so forth. Whilst they might have a great struggle sticking to
> the requirements of the text in today's world, there's no question or
> struggle about the writer of them.
For you, maybe. What about for the children?
H
Carol T
"Nick Upson" <ni...@upsonuk.com> wrote in message
news:VA.0000105...@upsonuk.com...
> In article <aqhksm$s5a$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>, Carol T wrote:
> but it isn't. Unless this is a private Christian school, which I don't
think
> it is from the descriptions, they are paid by the government to educate.
Yes, all schools bar private are paid by the Government, and faith schools
also receive a substantial amount over and above that from the church +
money from some parents and sometimes old students. But every non faith
parent could fund raise and give money to their school if they wish, so the
money the government are paying is irrelevant as it is for the 'basic'
education of all children.
As I pointed out the 'ONLY' aspect of a faith school that non faith parents
want is the very aspect that inspires the children, teachers and parents to
work together to make their school successful.
> So our taxes pay for Christian-biased teaching.<<<<<<<<
But that can't be a problem to someone of non faith because they don't want
the bias for their child at all, so they don't need to apply or feel
cheated. I don't feel cheated by not getting my child into a Muslim,
Catholic or Jewish school and I certainly don't think that the school
shouldn't get the same per head as a none faith school.
In fact non faith parents may be _more_ fortunate in managing to get their
child in a non faith school than someone with deep faith has of getting
their child into an over subscribed faith school. Where is the fairness in
that, because it's extremely though for a Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc..
child to have their way of life challenged day in day out in a non faith
school?
Carol T
Carol T
>>>>>>>>>>>and this is OK. I absolutely say "strive to be like
> me - a person who is doing their best - which is admirable".<<<<<<<<<
And what next, when they look around and see other humans doing better than
you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what are
> Christian children taught in Northern Ireland ?<<<<<<<<<
Christian's don't fight, people who want a label for their aggression might.
As World Muslim leaders quickly pointed out, the people who flew into the
Twin Towers in America weren't followers of their true faith. You have no
reason to doubt them, their faith isn't hidden any more than Christianity
is.
>>>>>>>> God is perfection. A just and benevolent God. He does no worng. His
Son died
> for us, so that we will sin no more. Just read about Auschwitz.<<<<<<<<
And are you saying that those responsible for Auschwitz had a deep belief in
God? People who have a fear of God do not murder and maim.
>>>>>>>> I would be heartbroken if my children decided to follow any
religion, I
> would feel I had failed them - as, I'm sure, you would if your children
> rejected *your* teaching.<<<<<<<
Why would you be heart broken?
My eldest daughter has refused to go to church for a number of years now. I
don't think that we've failed her and I'm certainly not heart broken about
it, disappointed, but not heart broken, it's her choice and always has been.
I see her handing her little girl over freely to people to take her to the
local Sunday School. I asked her about this and she said she wanted her to
have the knowledge to make the choice and then said that she wanted her to
grew up knowing about Jesus. When I said, but you claim you don't believe,
she said that it didn't mean that she wasn't glad to have grown up with Him
around me.
She has a choice and in her efforts to disprove Him she's learnt a
considerable amount about many different religions too.
>>>>>>> "We don't have to, we see it in things they do" ? Major eye-watering
cop-out
> ! If you guys invent a God, it is up to you to prove He exists.<<<<<<<<
He's not _a_ God, He's _the_ God.
>
> Oh, Christians give me tooth ache !<<<<<<<<<<
Collectively there are many more people of different faiths who believe in
one God than there are people who don't. I think that you'd better make
plenty of dental appointments :o)
Carol T
Carol T
>>>>>>>> Science gives me all I need.<<<<<<<<<<
What's fulfilling your children's needs?
You are a true late comer to science compared to God. Science is finite it
has no account, nor will it be able to understand, time, or the beginning
and the end of all life and it's intrinsic qualities.
Carol T
Carol T
> The bible teaches to not be disrespectful to your body (body
> is a temple) yet the vast majority of people calling themselves
> Christians are eating junk including genetically modified foods,
> taking drugs and dangerous synthetic medications including
> vaccinations etc.
The Bible also teaches that God gives us freewill and the freedom to be
'guided' by His Word. Hence, there will always be Christian people who let
their children grow up with a desire for worldly goods simply because they
are 'free' to chose. However, when they grow up, each one will have some
understanding of the philosophy that they can make a choice for themselves.
>>>>>> Every Christian has a different interpretation of what it means
> to be Christian and so while each individual may strive to teach
> their child to live as Jesus would, how many of them truly succeed?<<<<<
Those who live as they are taught get nearer than those who don't.
>>>>>>> Most people in this thread and most people in general are exposed
> to different philosophies and belief systems during their childhood
> and adult life. It would be very difficult for a child to get
> through their entire childhood without learning about various
> religions.<<<<<<<<<<
About? Or the Word of God?
>>>>>>>>> If atheist parents were to expose their children to Christianity,
> they would expose their children to other religions and belief
> systems also which is counter to your objectives. <<<<<<<<<
Have I objected to other faiths who believe in God, I don't remember? I
think that you are reading into things a little.
Carol T
Danny Colyer
> >>>>>>>> Science gives me all I need.<<<<<<<<<<
> What's fulfilling your children's needs?
Well, probably not religion. Having been brought up a Christian, I always
found religion deeply unsatisfying as a way of explaining the world around
me. My needs for explanation only really started to be fulfilled as a
teenager, when my level of science education far surpassed that of my
parents.
Sadly, I suspect few people are scientifically literate enough for science
to really fulfil the needs of they or their children.
> You are a true late comer to science compared to God. Science is finite it
> has no account, nor will it be able to understand, time, or the beginning
> and the end of all life and it's intrinsic qualities.
Some things are, alas, inherently unknowable. Religion cannot explain any
of these things any more satisfactorily than science (actually I find
scientific theories of time, the beginning and the end of all life and its
intrinsic qualities much more satisfying than religious theories).
Of course, science searches for evidence and scientific theories are updated
based on the available evidence. The limitations of scientific knowledge
are readily acknowledged and the boundaries constantly pushed against.
Religion, OTOH, tends to say "Oh, this explanation has worked for the last x
thousand years, who needs any more evidence than this book of Chinese
whispers?" There seems to be no attempt to push against the boundaries of
knowledge - after all, if it's all explained by the Bible, what's going to
change? What naturally curious child can accept that?
I believe that fairy stories, particularly those with a moral message and
those central to our culture, are important in a child's development. So
Jenny will grow up with the same Bible stories that I used to read (although
I might leave the 40 days in the wilderness for a bit later - that story
terrified me when I read it in my Childrens' Bible at 4 years old). But
when she starts to ask deep and meaningful questions about life, the
universe and everything, she'll get the simplified versions of the
scientific answers that I dearly wish my own parents had been able to
provide.
--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny )
Recumbent cycle page: http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
Carol T
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:50:01 +0000 (UTC), "Carol T"
<cteas...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Jenn" <je...@shadowdale.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:3MQKTGAv...@shadowdale.demon.co.uk...
> >> In article <aqeu7c$33b$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>, Carol T
> >
> >> In my area the two "best" schools are both faith schools.
> >
> >It is often true across the country.
>
So do faith schools in general unless they are 100% private, in which case
they are open to everyone anyway who has a big bank account. They still have
to take the children in their catchments area (just as other schools do).
Families of faith tend to move into the area though so to other parent's it
seems to be offset when actually there's no difference in intake rules.
Usually the extra places are subsidised by the church itself and donations
from previous students (i.e. the people attending the church donate
throughout their lives) At our school it has just over 20% of the school
places funded by the church, this added to the number of children whose
families have moved into the area and those who are already Christian's
makes the school appear to be more selective than it actually is. This is
probably true of most faith schools.
However, there is no reason for a non faith family to move into an area with
close religious ties to their church/es and then qualify for a catchments
place. However, their children will also be growing up amongst a peer group
who tend to be deeply involved in actives related to church life, even those
like brownies and Scouts in the area are likely to attend the church.
We have a non faith school that now specialises in music not far from us
which is quite successful, it also has extra funding from a number of places
in the form of grants and donations. It was once one of the schools no one
wanted their child to attend and in about 5 years it has turned its fortunes
around by becoming a centre of excellence for music. Looking for a school
that specialises is another way of focusing the child and getting them into
a better school if it's only results you want. My niece went to a city
technology school which was sponsored by local businesses and did extremely
well there. They have particular criteria for choosing their children and
although the school is technology based it's not necessarily technological
wizards they aim for, nor does having one child in the school guarantee a
place for other children from the same family.
Those schools which tend to take the more disruptive students also tend to
have nothing to offer over and above basic education and they end up with
floating places for those children who haven't managed to get into schools
of their parent's choice. It's these schools that make it seem as if they
are having no choice in the children they have when in fact this is not the
case.
Even the poorer achieving schools have pupils that turn out top grades
across the board. As I said the teachers all have educational degrees
regardless of where they teach and work. If faith makes for better quality
teaching then maybe there's something in faith some non parent's have yet to
acknowledge on behalf of their children.
Personally if I wasn't interested in the religious aspect of a school I
would be looking around and considering what other schools have to offer in
the way of specialisation. At the end of the day it's what's best for the
child's well-being that's important, not necessarily the best educational
results.
Carol T
Carol T
> >to take a child who may have difficulties than any other school.
>
Yup, our school also runs the largest special needs centre in the county and
the children integrate nicely to the daily life of the school.
>>>>>>>> 1) The children with the most difficulties are often children "in
care", who are
> highly unlikely to qualify under church attendance rules.<<<<<<<<
Nothing soothes the savage beast in a children like God does. Also our
church school was built especially for the children of the local orphanage
and many children who go now are the grandchildren, great grandchildren of
those children who didn't move on from the area.
>>>>>> 2) Other children with difficulties come from chaotic homes, have
poor nutrition, etc
> etc ... and are unlikely to qualify.<<<<<<<<
Every child whose parents are dedicated in their faith have equal
opportunity to attend a faith school. It has nothing to do with money diet
or otherwise. The church even pay the transport fees from all over the
county regardless of what parents can afford.
>
> The schools which are "more" likely... (see above) are those which have to
take all
> comers. Some of these schools have built up a good reputation for their
work with
> special needs pupils, and so get more of them.<<<<<<<<<
As I said we have the largest special needs in the area which also means
that the school are taking a great number of non Christian children who have
special needs.
>
> >If their faith is what has put them at the top of the tree, then it will
be their
> >faith that keeps them there, educational achievements are consequential..
>
> Surely you are not claiming that intelligence is linked to religious
faith!<<<<<<<<<<
No, not all all. It's what keeps the children happy and focused and if they
have a problem it's what they use alongside their teacher to put it into
God's hands. The general good and united atmosphere around the school
squashes distension too and helps maintain a high standard in school and at
home. Also discipline values tends to by synchronised with the school and
home. It has nothing to do with intelligence at all. As I said educational
achievements are a _consequence_ of all of this central focus.
>>>>>>>>>>
> Nope. They are selecting on things like consistent parenting, stable home
life etc,
> that's what does the trick for them.<<<<<<<<<<
I think that you'll find that there's more to it than this and these
attributes are just a throw off of the parent's religious values.
>>>>>>>>>> I think we could probably rustle some up. Just off the top of my
head (and copying
> the mechanics from our local RC school)..
>
> 90% of children to come from 2-parent homes.
> Minimal ethnic diversity.<<<<<<<<<<<<
If you went into the church you will probably find that these stats reflect
the church family life in general, just as would be so in a Muslim, Jewish
or other faith school. One of my best friends is single, she has 3 children
at school and when she moved into an upper class area where she was told by
the local LEA quite categorically that they would have to go to 3 different
schools which would all be in the local catchments area within 3 miles
apart. She was in floods of tears because she wanted them to go to the same
school as life would be awful trying to get them to 3 different places, and
because she wanted them to go to a Christian school because she didn't want
their Christian values eroded. At one point she even considered home
teaching.
We put aside what the LEA said and all the disputes with Social Services and
school heads, and decided that the church school was still the best to meet
their needs. Then we prayed for the places, asked friends to pray too and
wrote to the school governors explaining to them everything that had
happened with the LEA, her past life and her desperate need to have her
children in a Christian school. After they met her and her children they
made the places with extra funding from the church. She's still single,
still very broke but the children are being educated with the values she
wants for them. The school have discovered that 2 of them are musically
gifted, possible the younger one too, and they now support her with their
music tuition, and that is the loss of all the other schools in the area who
looked down on them.
Carol T
Danny Colyer
> You are profoundly ignorant of modern theology if you really believe
> that.
That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Although theology is a subject
which I find fascinating, and I miss the theological discussions that I used
to have with my religious housemates at university, it's not something that
I've considered useful enough to be worthy of my limited time over the last
10 years or so.
I did go through a religious phase between the ages of about 3 and 16, and I
made a point of studying theology in some depth towards the end of that
period (like Charles Darwin, I had some difficulty reconciling my religious
beliefs with my scientific beliefs, so I felt it necessary to learn as much
as possible about both).
> You would appear to have the same depth of knowledge of religion as
> you ascribe to your parents of science.
Well, I can hardly take offence at that, since I didn't ascribe any depth of
science knowledge to my parents. I simply stated that my level of science
education far surpassed theirs. Hardly surprising when they didn't have the
opportunity to continue full time education beyond O'levels, but supported
me through 4 science A'levels and a BSc.
FWIW my level of knowledge probably surpassed theirs around the time I
started studying for GCSE's, since my education was 20 years more up to date
than their O'level studies. Their scientific knowledge is probably a little
above average, I would say that my religious knowledge is greater.
Lauren
news:6hheem....@news2.kororaa.com...
> The entity currently known as Danny Colyer wrote:
>
> > Religion, OTOH, tends to say "Oh, this explanation has worked for
> > the last x thousand years, who needs any more evidence than this
> > book of Chinese whispers?" There seems to be no attempt to push
> > against the boundaries of knowledge - after all, if it's all
> > explained by the Bible, what's going to change?
>
> that.
Surely religious stories cannot change - it is The Truth. Modern theology is
a rather oxymoronic !
Lauren
Carol T
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:29:10 +0000 (UTC), "Carol T"
<cteas...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just think, my son would have had to live every day with
> a bunch of children who are firmly convinced they are better than him. I
could have
> fought and pushed him into a school .... umm if I had to fight to get him
in, just
> how welcome would we *ever* have been? <<<<<<<<<
Essentially children's well-being is the most important and peer
relationships are paramount, so you are right it might no have been the best
school for him anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chances of getting in on appeal at any of the better
> schools are very slim indeed. The faith schools will not look at anyone on
appeal who
> does not fit the church attendance requirements.<<<<<<<<<
You must not work on assumption and fight for your child's future for all
you are worth. Doing this alone is a visible demonstration of your desire to
support your child's education. Maybe you should get together with other
parents and make a conscience decision to make one of the failing schools a
better place to be starting with your son's year. With new fired and
'sustained' enthusiasm you'd be surprised how quickly the staff will pick up
on it.
>>>> Good for him. The emphasis in this city, however, is on the parents'
church
> attendance first and foremost. If he'd lived here he wouldn't have got
in.<<<<<<<
The church will take care of a child who has chose it to be its guiding
parent regardless of where they live. I live in a city BTW.
> > It's perfectly acceptable for a family to be
> >Christian and to have their worship in their own homes and then get into
a
> >church school, but it's a desire that comes across spiritually when they
> >apply. These families will have no points at all for attending church.
>
> Then they won't get into a church school in this city. End of
story.<<<<<<<<<<
Try putting that assumption to your local Bishop and I think that you'll
find different. You see, people tend only to hear of those who shout loudest
because they didn't get what they want. A city church school will be meeting
the needs of the whole county and you don't always hear of those harbouring
the private joy that their children will be educated with the guidance they
wanted.
> >But if the school is a Christian school supported by Christian funding
and
> >love then surely it's their prerogative to be concerned with a child's
> >lifestyle over their educational abilities ?
>
> Come off it. You know how these schools are funded. Out of our taxes, just
like any
> other state school.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You mean just like the schools that specialise in art, music, drama,
technology, all of which have the basic educational allowance for each
child. Only private schools are not state funded.
>>>>>>>> To put it simply, I'm hacked off at paying for schools that my
child is "banned"
> from. The reason they get better results is that "faith" schools are
allowed to
> select and other schools are not. <<<<<<<
Move into the allocated catchments area then, it would be worth considering
as an option for any school you decide on.
>>>>>>>>>> If all schools were allowed to select on parents' lifestyle, and
if that was what we
> wanted in this country ... fine. It just hacks me off that the selection
criteria
> have to be hidden behind a smokescreen .... it's divisive to say the
least, but it's
> oh so much easier to hide what's going on.<<<<<<<<<<
Nothing's hidden, why don't you contact the local church and discuss the way
you feel with your vicar. You don't need to be a Christian to discuss
education with the clergy and the way you are feeling about it. They _do_
have concerns for the welfare of all the children in their area, not just
those going to the local church school. You might even be surprised and
discover that there are clergy on the Board of Governors of many non faith
schools too and in some cases the church also give some funding.
>>>>>>>>> >To me people sometimes seem to imply that they only want the
> >part of Christianity that will benefit their child, which is also the
very
> >thing they also want to deny.
>
> I don't want any part of Christianity, thank you.<<<<<<<<<<<
Then why are you feeling the way you do about your local church schools, it
simply doesn't make sense?
> >As all children across the country work to a
> >National Curriculum and teachers have to hold education degrees to the
same
> >standards the _only_ difference can possibly be the Christian way of life
> >and their belief in God that is supporting the school.
>
> Nope, they select. That's how they do it. <<<<<<<<<
Nooo, the National Curriculum is the same for every school except private
schools, it's even published in libraries so that parents can follow it if
they want. Your child will be guarenteed the same educational content at
what ever school you select.
> Half right. Certainly, our child is thriving at his school. He would
thrive even more
> at a selective school. <<<<<<<
Children thrive where the feel most confident and comfortable, sometimes
that's not always schools that select like the old grammar schools did.
Perhaps you could try one of the many scholarships that the private schools
offer if you are in a city?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The 11+ was not the answer, but it was a small part of the
> answer. Children (all children) need to go to a school that is appropriate
to their
> need for an education. Full stop. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ahhhh, and that is why we have faith schools, because they meet the need of
a community of people who see it as an essential part of their children's
education, just as music is to those children who go to the school in our
area that specialises in that.
>>>>>>>We don't need schools that select on shoe size, eye
> colour, or special schools for the children of VW-drivers, and we don't
need special
> schools for religious groups either.<<<<<
My children do, I don't want them educated in a non faith school. We went
down that route with my older children and it clashed with our lifestyle far
too much. All that would happen if we were to have all same standard schools
is that people who follow the same faiths would move into the same
catchments areas to ensure that their children are educated with the people
they have been growing up with.
>>>>>>>>>> >and why should the education aspect of the other
> >schools in the area not be as good?
>
> Because the other schools have to take children on a
fisrt-come-first-served basis.<<<<<<<<<
But if the children are going to the faith school first and foremost then
it's the _faith_ that they are effectively attracted to because that's what
is sustaining the school.
>>>>>>>>>> They can't turn down a child just because his single-mother is a
crack addict <or
> whatever> .... They have to take that child and try to educate him/her.
They can't
> just walk past on the other side.<<<<<<<<<<
I disagree, if a single mother of a child who was on crack went to the
governors with a good case she is going to looked on favourably, especially
if she is making an attempt to change her way of life with God's help.
However, in such cases other social organisations of the church are likely
to be involved with the family, in this case the child's education is a
little part of a whole and would be supported.
>>>>>>>> >That's funny, because my Christian friends and I would put that
whole list
> >the other way around.
>
> Then you're mixing "school" up with a different word. School is about
education. You
> know, facts and skills and that sort of thing.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No I'm not God leads children to beautiful music and other educational
gifts, and the place/platform to hear it an share with other people who
genuinely care, which leads to children feeling good about themselves, and
then leads to a determination to succeed in life. And when they have
succeeded in what ever they do, or failed come to that, there is a whole
community they grew up with that cares too, and so it goes on and on. It
should be as much a choice for a parent of faith to opt into a faith system
as it is yours to not be part of one.
> Don't worry. I think we'll probably go out-of-county. Frankly, with what
I've seen of
> these faith-school kids recently, their schools could be turning out baby
Einstein's
> and I still wouldn't want my child to go there.<<<<<<<<<<<
Children who travel get very tired and miss out on other out of school
activities. They are also taken out of their peer group so it's worth
considering the down side of travelling. I hope that whatever school you
settle on for your child will be a positive experience for him. Sometimes
children go their own way regardless of what aspirations their parents have
for them and can be very cross about their parent's choice which can be a
let down for the parent. The world can't be made of brain surgeons (we don't
actually need them very often) and not many children will come anywhere near
the realm of Einstein, who incidentally was turned down by an education
establishment. The most important thing is that they are happy, feel loved,
cared for, and that they think they are achieving in your eyes, and the rest
will follow. To a child education is not their primary objective of being
in a school.
Try not to be cross about the faith schools, they are not a place you would
have chosen anyway, so the way they operate is irrelevant. The criteria of
other schools are _more_ suited to your needs by the sound of it
Carol T
Carol T
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:20:16 -0000, "Lauren"
<richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com>
> They do, you know. Or do you think they've finally stopped? Fingers
crossed, eh:-)
> Oh, I just remembered, they've taken up crucifixion. Did you see the pics
in last
> week's paper?
Which paper ?
Carol T
Carol T
"Danny Colyer" <da...@jugglersafety.net> wrote in message
news:aqqsmo$2fq$4...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Religion cannot explain any
> of these things any more satisfactorily than science (actually I find
> scientific theories of time, the beginning and the end of all life and its
> intrinsic qualities much more satisfying than religious
theories).<<<<<<<<<
Enlighten me please to your fulfilment because I am going to find this
interesting indeed.
>>>>>>>> Of course, science searches for evidence and scientific theories
are updated
> based on the available evidence. The limitations of scientific knowledge
> are readily acknowledged and the boundaries constantly pushed
against.<<<<<<<<<<
There's no clash between religion and Science as far as I am aware.
Religious people who are also very good scientists do not think that
religion replaces science or vice versa. It's only scientists who have no
faith who think God needs to be worthy of their time _before_ they have
discovered who He really is through the tried and tested method of studying
the Scriptures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There seems to be no attempt to push against the boundaries of
> knowledge - after all, if it's all explained by the Bible, what's going to
> change? What naturally curious child can accept that?<<<<<<<<<<<<
It's not about 'pushing the boundaries of knowledge' Reaching a deeper
understanding of life and Spiritual fulfilment maybe, which in turn leads to
having intellectual pathways opening up for some people, especially curious
children.
>>>>>>> I might leave the 40 days in the wilderness for a bit later - that
story
> terrified me when I read it in my Childrens' Bible at 4 years old).
<<<<<<<<<<<
Why did it frighten you? It was a Spiritual battle between the darker side
of human nature (evil) and purity. Jesus was a very intelligent man and at
that point in the desert He is likely to have spent many hours deliberating.
The advantage of setting Himself aside and being alone would have meant that
He had the strength to resist all temptations whilst He prayed for guidance
and enlightenment. Remember that he had already been singled out publicly by
a man, John the Baptist, who attracted people from all over the kingdom in
his fame. With this acknowledgment of His destiny Jesus could have used his
wisdom and power over people to gather up great armies of men to wipe out
all those who disagreed with Him.
Mathew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" (NKJ)
For the scientists there is a warning there that the Devil (the evil in man)
can dangle a carrot with seemingly rich rewards, even after long periods of
dedicated research. Glory that comes speedily is short lived and will not
necessarily earn you a place of respect in the history books.
Take a long thoughtful look at the discovery of some genes and consider the
tiny part of the 'shopping list' that has been identified and played with by
scientists, and how they wallow in this _tiny_ bit of information as if each
of them have personally played the part. They chose to be oblivious, on
behalf of us the public, to the true complexities of the tunes that genes
play whilst they have interacted with the environment, mother, father, the
past and present in the split seconds at conception.
As I said, "You are a true late comer to science compared to God. How can
you be fulfilled by such a tincy wincey aspect of the work of His hand when
there is so much more?
>>>>>>>>>>>>I dearly wish my own parents had been able to
> provide.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Are you saying that your parent's ignorance is because of their faith? Do
you not think that without faith they might still have been ignorant to
scientific matters? Maybe without some guidance from the morality of those
scriptures you might have ended up in prison, or something comparable, and
worlds away from understanding any science at all.
Carol T
Carol T
> Surely religious stories cannot change - it is The Truth. Modern theology
is
> a rather oxymoronic !
The Bible is dynamic which is why it has stood the test of time and many
generations of inquisition and insult. God has _always_ been modern to each
generation oddly enough, we won't be on the other hand.
Carol T
'Fuzzy logic' is oxymoronic as well :-)
Steve Roberts
off-topic and off-group. The thread was about "how one relates religion to
children"...
It's shifted to a discussion about the truth or otherwise of religion and
Christinaity. I don't think this n/g is the place for that... nor will all
our entrenched attitudes be changed by these exchanges. I think we all now
know where the various contributors are coming from?
Let's drop it. Save our bandwidth!
Steve
Carol T
"Steve Roberts" <steve.robe...@materials.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aqtgql$gae$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
> ... errr ... Carol and co. - I think this whole discussion has got a bit
> off-topic and off-group. The thread was about "how one relates religion to
> children"...
It obviously relates to schooling for some, very much so by some of the
concerns expressed over 'seemingly' better educational arenas for children
from families of faith.
As it's impossible to separate belief from the reasons those children have
these places in the first place I don't see how the topic can be otherwise
approached.
As school is a big part of children's lives I think that religious and non
religious families have a right to let each other know how they feel about
its part in education and 'pushing back the boundaries of knowledge'
Sometimes there is a consensus that religion is a 'topic', this is true in a
non faith school. However in a faith school it is a way of life, and if that
way of life improves general standards of education and behaviour it has to
be considered as a big element in children's upbringing.
Children are capable of being quite philosophical. Can you think of any
other area of their life where they can have a chance to learn, think and
practice applying the depth of philosophy found in faith systems?
This is >>UK people parent's.<< How have today's UK children been better off
for their parents letting go of their religious values in favour of nothing,
commercialism or things like witchcraft ? I think that's a good question
worthy of an answer. Especially in light of some parent's claiming that
faith schools are amongst the top with their educational results.
Carol T
Danny Colyer
> Enlighten me please to your fulfilment because I am going to find this
> interesting indeed.
That's a meaningless request. What did you want to know?
> It's only scientists who have no
> faith who think God needs to be worthy of their time _before_ they have
> discovered who He really is through the tried and tested method of
studying
> the Scriptures.
Quite right. I do not have faith. Faith is, IMHO, an extremely bad thing.
To quote Dawkins: "[faith] means blind trust, in the absence of evidence,
even in the teeth of evidence."
While I have to respect the beliefs of others, such faith appears foolish in
the extreme to me. It runs too far against my deeply held belief in the
importance of thinking for oneself.
> >>>>>>> I might leave the 40 days in the wilderness for a bit later - that
> story
> > terrified me when I read it in my Childrens' Bible at 4 years old).
> <<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Why did it frighten you? It was a Spiritual battle between the darker side
> of human nature (evil) and purity.
Obvious to an adult, but not to a 4 year old. One of the great evils of
Christianity (IMHO) is the use of hell and the devil to scare people into
submission. Thankfully my parents were not religious enough to make use of
it, but we still attended church and Sunday school at that point, so I would
doubtless have picked up a fear of the devil there.
That story, more than any other, features the devil as a real,
physical being. To a 4yo Christian child, it's a scary monster story
featuring the ultimate scary monster. So what if good triumphs? The
monster's still there at the end of it all.
> Are you saying that your parent's ignorance is because of their faith? Do
> you not think that without faith they might still have been ignorant to
> scientific matters?
I repeat, at no point did I suggest any ignorance on the part of my parents.
I simply stated that my scientific education far surpassed theirs.
Neither of my parents is ignorant to scientific matters, and my mother is
certainly far more scientifically literate than the average Briton.
> Maybe without some guidance from the morality of those
> scriptures you might have ended up in prison, or something comparable, and
> worlds away from understanding any science at all.
I find that suggestion offensive. Regardless of religious considerations,
my parents are good people who gave me the moral guidance that they saw fit.
The fact that many of those moral guidelines coincide with those of
Christianity is coincidental and irrelevant.
It is a simple fact that a religion will not become widely accepted within a
society unless it provides moral guidance consistent with the needs of that
society. That's why major religions tend to give much the same moral
guidelines. Morality does not require religion, religion requires morality.
Christianity works for you, I don't have a problem with that. But it's not
for everyone, it's not for me and I don't believe it benefited me as a
child. To return to my original point, and to stay on topic, why do you
feel that the needs of Madhouse's children (who you have presumably never
met) cannot be met by science without religion?
I quote the post which you responded to drawing me into this thread:
> But I do not believe in a god FULL STOP, And neither do my children..and
> they are perfectly happy with it..
> Science gives me all I need.
--
madhouse
>
> "Lauren" <richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:3dd14333$0$13374$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
>
>
> > Surely religious stories cannot change - it is The Truth. Modern
theology
> is
> > a rather oxymoronic !
>
>
>
> The Bible is dynamic which is why it has stood the test of time and many
> generations of inquisition and insult. God has _always_ been modern to
each
> generation oddly enough, we won't be on the other hand.
this world... And there have been beliefs around before that. So how can
you say that we are wrong to believe in science over religion. Science has
been around just as long..as has developed alongside religion. Science is
just understanding the way things work, why they work. I am not saying that
your wrong..all I am saying is that it is a new religion still... I know it
is older than the bible but there are still many older religions that are no
less important. Many people..( not matter if you think it is strange) still
worship the moon, the trees....etc... this was done right down through the
ages....
"God" to me is a name some people choose to give the power of nature...
that is what I believe in.... but I can not believe a being of any sort gave
me life.. or can take it away.. My destiny is in my own hands... Yes.. I
was brought up as a Wiccan... but even that to me seems a bit of hand. I
celebrate in my own way. I only believe in what I can see..( I believe in
ghosts, ufo's and a conspiracy theory, hehehe) I think if I had to say
there was one thing I believed in it would have to be old Alchemy.
Now to me it doesn't matter what name you give to the powers that be...
whether that be the electrons flying round creating things... or it be lots
of gods sitting up in a cloud on top of Mt Olympus... or it be "God" as many
modern day religions call it.. Some people believe in nothing.... but the
fact is we are all right.... As it is right for us... That is the problem of
religion today.... Many people want to convert everyone to there way of
thinking.... I do not go to church as I choose not to.. My children choose
not to... I do not have prayers in my house as I don't feel they are
important... If the kids wanted to they could.
The Bible is a book,..some history, some fiction but it is a system of
belief... The Koran is the same.. The Aztecs had religious writings...as did
the Egyptians.... it is something to help people to get through there day..
It is something they turn to when they are scared... But it isn't black and
white... it isn't as solid as stone.. Hence religion is always changing...
Even Christianity has changed... or all us poor women would be seen and not
heard...
The witch trails were not to get rid of evil women that were cursing
people... It was to show women there place... it was also an attempt to stop
the wise women and midwifes from being relied on so much...and last but not
least.. it was to try and convert people forcibly from the older
religions...
I don't have all the answers but then again if I did... I would be
worshipped.. :) So for now I keep searching. I keep an eye on news.. I like
finding out what the nearest asteroid is to earth... I like finding out
about how species are evolving... etc etc....
That's my two pence worth.
Nick Upson
> This is >>UK people parent's.<< How have today's UK children been better off
> for their parents letting go of their religious values in favour of nothing,
> commercialism or things like witchcraft ? I think that's a good question
> worthy of an answer. Especially in light of some parent's claiming that
> faith schools are amongst the top with their educational results.
How about rephrasing the above so it is not insulting. People can have
religious values without being christian. "Things like witchcraft" -
witchcraft, is often considered a Pagan religion, in particular Wicca.
There are religious values and religious beliefs and it is perfectly possible
to say "I like the values of religion X but I don't share their beliefs"
Ferger
> How have today's UK children been better off
> for their parents letting go of their religious values in favour of
> nothing, commercialism or things like witchcraft ?
Oh please. It's precisely that kind of failure to separate religious
beliefs from a need to ignorantly evangelise that turns these discussions
into christianity vs. the rest.
--
F (who has had no truck with any religion, ever, but is happy to conduct
himself on the basis of a stringent moral code that he worked out all by
himself)
Carol T
> In article <aqtlvu$8te$1...@venus.btinternet.com>, Carol T wrote:
> How about rephrasing the above so it is not insulting. People can have
> religious values without being christian. "Things like witchcraft" -
> witchcraft, is often considered a Pagan religion, in particular Wicca.
Having come from a town that is rife in Witchcraft I can tell you now that
it does nothing but damage children and all those involved. Whilst there is
undoubtedly those who are fundamentally good people, there is nothing in
witchcraft that guides children philosophically or otherwise. It attracts
people who are fascinated by all things evil, and even those involved can
not keep them away. Those who want to get out of it have no where to turn
except to those who have helped them to take part in things above their
heads. It is no accident that the school in that town is the worst in our
county, has the highest truancy, a whole bunch of children who care only for
themselves and who believe that anything they want they should get the
second they want it. Some of them are not adverse to threatening other
children with the things their parents dabble in either.
Any religion that parent's feel a need to carry out in secret needs to be
considered long and hard. Any religion that is based on secret writings,
secret words, 'degrees' and instils power on individual people is not a
religion at all but a cult. Children are far from stupid and they are also
born pure in Spirit, they know when something isn't right and they have deep
inner conflicts with it.
Children who have a deep faith live in harmony with others, they do better
at school, they are unlikely to get into trouble, they will follow the
guidance given to them by their elders, they are often very motivated, very
caring children, they are more aware of the needs of others and they will be
happier. Nowhere is any of this more evident than with in the school
environment. Yes, there are children who go to faith schools who struggle
with these values, but generally their behaviour falls into line with the
other children in time.
Carol T
Raingoddess
what Wicca really means? Or simply in slamming it because it's not what you
believe? If you are seriously committed to understanding what Wiccans
believe, I am willing to discuss it, as you seem to be woefully uninformed.
See my comments below.news:ar5vhk$aop$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
>
> Having come from a town that is rife in Witchcraft I can tell you now that
> it does nothing but damage children and all those involved.
How would you feel if I descibed my town as *rife with Christians* in this
same scathing tone, and implied that I felt it damaged children? You appear
to write with very little understanding of Witchcraft, as you term it. Are
you not aware that many people would descibe Wicca (and other forms of
paganism) as their religion, that it is as important to them as your
Christianity is to you? If so, then I feel your stance here is offensive.
I doubt very much that you would refer to Islam or Hinduism in such a way.
The world is a mess, and the only way forward, I feel, is better
understanding and tolerance between religions. You've shown little of
either in this post.
Whilst there is
> undoubtedly those who are fundamentally good people, there is nothing in
> witchcraft that guides children philosophically or otherwise.
I disagree. If, by witchcraft you mean Wicca and not some botched-together
ideas you have gleaned from Buffy, horror movies and Christian
scaremongering leaflets, it has much to offer children and adults. It
fosters a respect for others, for the environment and for the self.
It attracts
> people who are fascinated by all things evil, and even those involved can
> not keep them away. Those who want to get out of it have no where to turn
> except to those who have helped them to take part in things above their
> heads.
Of course there are some people attracted to paganism that are disturbed.
But this applies equally to any religion - we've all heard too many stories
about priests who've abused their position. I think you're buying too much
into the tabloid image of *witchcraft* and have little real knowledge of the
nature of Wicca. You're associating the whole thing with raising the dead,
cults and brainwashing. This is not consistent with most Wiccans'
experience. Of course there have been cases documented where people abused
their power - but stop and think a moment - David Koresh claimed to be a
CHRISTIAN, didn't he? There's good and bad in every religion.
It is no accident that the school in that town is the worst in our
> county, has the highest truancy, a whole bunch of children who care only
for
> themselves and who believe that anything they want they should get the
> second they want it.
This is a matter concerning the school and its lack of success. I doubt any
school fails due to the religion of it's pupils, it's more likely to do with
the quality of teaching, the facilities and the general atmosphere and
attitude to learning. I somehow doubt you could PROVE it is linked to the
number of students who are pagan, and I am interested to know how you know
how many pagan students there actually are. Incidentally, my children, who
are aware of my beliefs, are all doing very well academically and socially.
Some of them are not adverse to threatening other
> children with the things their parents dabble in either.
>
Some children of any religious denomination are not adverse to threatening
others. It's called bullying. It happens everywhere, in faith and
non-faith schools. it shouldn't, but it does.
> Any religion that parent's feel a need to carry out in secret needs to be
> considered long and hard. Any religion that is based on secret writings,
> secret words, 'degrees' and instils power on individual people is not a
> religion at all but a cult.
<sigh> Here I believe you've really shown the extent of your ignorance
about Wicca. Many people who are pagan feel unable to be open about their
beliefs because of such ill-informed, incorrect and intolerant attitudes as
yours. A few facts for you in the hope of incresing your understanding -
1. Not all wiccans are involved in covens, many are solitary. Many do not
go through any kind of inititation in the way you imagine. People are not
generally forced or co-erced into embracing Wicca, they come to it
themselves as it is not an evangelising religion. I have read about people
in cults being unable to leave - BUT in all denominations, not just pagan
ones. I do not defend any organisation that seeks to keep people against
their will.
No thinking person would.
2. Wiccan literature is now widely available. Check out your local
bookstore and you will probably find a wide range. There is much less
secrecy now than in the past. Previously things were kept secret for many
reasons, one of them due to legal implications.
3. Wicca teaches that individuals have power, yes. But that means EVERY
individual. This is not a bad thing, IMO, it releases people from the fear
of a religious leader and allows them to take control of their own life,
without the need for absolution from a priest etc. In my experience Wicca
is not a religion based on fear in any way.
4. *Evil* for most Wiccans, does not come into it. If you mean that
Wiccans are devil worshipping, blood-sacrificing monsters, you are
completely wrong. Wiccans do not believe in *Satan* - that is a Christian
notion.
Children are far from stupid and they are also
> born pure in Spirit, they know when something isn't right and they have
deep
> inner conflicts with it.
I agree that children are not stupid. However they can easily be led into
stupid and intolerant attitudes by their parents. In my experience pagans
are much more tolerant of the religion of others than you have been here,
and are happy for their children to decide for themselves. This is
certainly the case in my family. My eldest daughter's beliefs differ from
mine, she goes to a local church, but we are able to respect each others'
views and be happy for one another. The younger children have yet to
decide, but whichever way they go is fine by me. I don't feel that I need
them to agree with everything I think/say/believe, and if I did, I feel this
would say an awful lot about me and my insecurities. I don't know what's
right for everyone, but I know what's right for me. Along with many
Wiccans, I believe there is no One True Way.
>
> Children who have a deep faith live in harmony with others, they do better
> at school, they are unlikely to get into trouble, they will follow the
> guidance given to them by their elders, they are often very motivated,
very
> caring children, they are more aware of the needs of others and they will
be
> happier. Nowhere is any of this more evident than with in the school
> environment.
All of the above could apply equally to a child who has been raised with
pagan values.
Yes, there are children who go to faith schools who struggle
> with these values, but generally their behaviour falls into line with the
> other children in time.
Ah, conforming! This is a whole different can of worms!
Carol, if you feel so strongly about this subject, I strongly recommend you
read some books on Wicca or other pagan religions, and work out where your
opinions are factually incorrect. Of course there are extremists in any
religion, but if you were to read, for example, Wicca, A Guide for the
Solitary Practitioner by Scott Cunningham, I think you might see that you
have nothing to fear from the vast majority of Wiccans. You might even
begin to see how pagan attitudes can add to the life of a community.
You might also like to check out the pages on Wicca and other religions at
Beliefnet, or at http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
Don't misunderstand me, Carol, I am very glad for you that you have found
the right religion for you, but I do wish you would take the time to explore
the facts, and perhaps then you would feel as happy for me.
Lynne
darren giles
> Having come from a town that is rife in Witchcraft I can tell you now that
> it does nothing but damage children and all those involved. Whilst there
is
> undoubtedly those who are fundamentally good people, there is nothing in
> witchcraft that guides children philosophically or otherwise. It attracts
> people who are fascinated by all things evil, and even those involved can
> not keep them away.
As a practising. "Witch" I would love to know what makes you qualified to
say that it is evil. How can anything with a golden rule of "DO WHAT YOU
WILL BUT HURT NO ONE" Be evil. It is ignorance like that which causes
people that have nothing to do with true witchcraft( your words not mine) to
be labelled in with us. It is based on the same things that you believe as
a Christian. I was initiated at 7..( same as a christening.) I was taught
about how we all supported each other..And the reason why it is normally
kept secret is because narrow minded people like yourself, spread nasty
little rumours about sacrifices,child abuse etc. There are child abuses in
every walk of life. This is a sad fact of life. Yet I am discouraged from
openly admitting my religion in life due to the fact that people may think
that it makes me a bad person. It is onions like yours that drive a valid
religion like Wicca underground as you get judged without even being given a
chance.
I find your statement very slanderous and without any background. Now
everything I will say about Christianity I have actually gone to the trouble
of finding out. Rather than just using narrow minded comments.
I am just doing an essay on the Witchtrails at present and I was going to
put as my conclusion that society has moved on from the dark ages.. Sadly it
seems that there are still those that don't.
There are many flaws in all religions basically because it is a mad made
concept. So each to there own..and really don't slag off someone else's
religion before you actually know what your talking about. And yes. I am
proud of who I am and what I am.. but it doesn't mean I believe totally in
what my parents taught me. But I believe in what I see in front of my face.
I believe in ghosts due to having a chat with my granddad who died while my
mum was carrying me. ( I was 4) and I had never seen a picture till years
later..
I believe in the power of NATURE...and I believe in the power of the moon.
The last being because it is responsible for the tides etc...
--
Lynda (daz's other half)
Derby uk.
Mum, biker, and modified car nut. :-)
***I have nothing to declare but my genius***
Raingoddess
"darren giles" <darren...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XOLB9.10920$B92.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
that being initiated at 7 was the right thing, that you fully understood
what was happening and was involved? Were you given a choice? I often
wonder about the whole issue of any kind of initiation/christening/baptism
of young children and babies, and whether it would be better to wait until
the child is of an age to fully appreciate what's going on and to make a
personal choice.
I'd be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions, too. Do any of us
really have a right to determine our childrens' religion at such a young
age?
Lynne
Lauren
feel
> that being initiated at 7 was the right thing, that you fully understood
> what was happening and was involved? Were you given a choice? I often
> wonder about the whole issue of any kind of initiation/christening/baptism
> of young children and babies, and whether it would be better to wait
until
> the child is of an age to fully appreciate what's going on and to make a
> personal choice.
> I'd be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions, too. Do any of us
> really have a right to determine our childrens' religion at such a young
> age?
>
> Lynne
Of course we have the right to determine our childrens' religion - or lack
of it - we are their parents !
I am not going to teach her that all religions are equally valid, even
though I will teach her factually about them as interesting philosophical
theories. I won't teach her about them all and allow her to choose.
I will not teach her all languages and allow her to decide which one to
speak either. We are entitled - and surely, we are only able - to teach our
children what we believe.
The only question is how hard to push it. You have to pitch it just right so
that the teenage rebellion only goes so far, and then they swing back. Don't
push it so much that you push them away !
I will teach her to be an atheist, but without telling her just how much I
loathe all organised religion, in case it makes one religion or another
other look interesting !
Lauren
darren giles
"Raingoddess" <ly...@rainydaygods.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ar87j0$nn9$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> In a vague attempt to get this thread back on-topic --- Darrren, do you
feel
> that being initiated at 7 was the right thing, that you fully understood
> what was happening and was involved? Were you given a choice?
It is actually Lynda, Darrens other half here that wrote the post. Daz is
a happy atheist. I went to church too...and made the choice myself.( I was
a very grown up 7) I never ever do anything I don't want to do. So for me
it was a personal choice.
I am happy to give my children that same choice. I do not let them see me
practise but that is because I do not need the distractions. I think that
you are right though about if having to be a childs personal choice. I may
have only been 7 at the time.. but it was right for me..and I felt
comforatble with it. I differ from my mother though as I prefer to practise
solitary.. This is mainly as I have many issues with any structured
religion.. mine included and prefer to believe in my own version. As I am
sure many people from many other relgions do. It is a personal thing to me
and I wouldn't want to impose my religion on anyone... least of all my
children. If my children asked to be initiated then I would happily arrange
it. IF they wanted to be christenend, I would attempt it but I would find it
hard due to me having not been christenend.
I think religion should be a personal choice rather than something that
is expected of you. My dad was c of e and I was sent to sunday school. It
never felt right...so I learned what my mum believed in and that felt a much
better fit. I guess I can not believe that one person has the monopoly on
power and I know that I can be who and what I want to be. I need no god to
help me there.
But I also don't think that Carol is wrong in believing in Jesus...that is
her choice and belief. Where she is wrong is in her assumptions about a
religious belief in which she has no understanding.
Thanks
news@nospam
> Pretty much as subject. I've got a 3yr old son Luke Aidan
>(which I didn't realise are both saints names !!) I've got an interest
>in all different religions but I suppose I'm classed as CoE although I
>always wonder about the existance of certain key figures :-) I do find
>all religions of interest esp. the Celtic, Pagan and Shamanistic ones.
>
> After reading the halloween thread I thought it might be
>interesting to see how different people have had to cope with other
>parents, schools, authorities, etc. after you'd made it clear which
>religions/beliefs you wanted your child to follow/worship/etc.
>
Hi (again),
I think I launched into a massive bees nest when I put this
subject on, but I must be honest and say that it's created a very
interesting thread, even if it has gone off-topic a few times.
Just out of curiousity though, again off topic, but how many
people are happy with their religion, we've all seen CarolT go off at
anything that isn't christian, and even though I disagree with several
of her posts, I respect that she has the honesty to say it as she sees
it, even though several people say she is seeing it incorrectly. I
don't believe in God as such, although I must admit at difficult times
I have prayed (bereavment, etc.) We did get married in a CoE church
and the vicar FORCED (I joke not) the wife to convert from catholicism
before he would consider marrying us. He wouldn't even confirm we
could get married on the date we wanted even after 9 months in case
someone else wanted the time we wanted. He MADE us go to church every
Sunday (at least once every 2 weeks) saying we needed to be on a
church electoral roll. We had a house in the village we now live in,
but we where converting the house from a derelict state so we couldn't
live there. He told us that any lies we told WOULD be found out due to
the fact that our postman was the church organist and people living a
couple of doors away where on the church council, and to be totally
honest if it wasn't for the fact the the wife really wanted a church
wedding in the village I would have told him in no uncertain terms
what I thought of him. In my opinion he really took the joy out of our
wedding process, is that a christian act ? We thought that the fact we
wanted to get married should have been enough for a vicar to welcome
us with open arms. The vicar also refused to marry people who where
divorced or widowed, or who had had children before marriage, and in
most cases couples living together before marriage.
He hid all this behind a "it's the rules" line, yet we had
lots of friends who got married in different churches sometimes in
different countries (ie. not England for my English friends) and the
vicars weclomed them with open arms and where simply glad that the
couples wished to marry.
Anyway, back to the thread(ish), I have the personal belief
that there is a god, is basically you are your own god, you are your
own universe, you are your own person. I thank my parents for giving
me life, not a diety (sp?) that allows millions of people to suffer
needlessly from hunger, war, disease. I have a very scientific
philosophy to life, so I find the whole 'world created in 6 days'
approach very unplausable. I've never had dealing with 'paranormal',
ghosts, etc. although that sort of stuff runs in the family (my uncle
used to be chairmain or president of the BUFOS, and my cousin is a
leading expert on paranormal (so I've heard!!). I didn't come from a
religious background, I went to Sunday school once, and only went to
church for weddings, christenings and funerals. I do err towards
Pagan/Shamanistic as a preferable religion, but I like aspects from
most of the religions I've read about, I like the philosophy of the
Far East, the animal side of the Shamanism (Hawk, Tiger and Pheonix
are my guides, if anyone is interested, according to my friend
Harrison).
My parents always brought me up to understand good and evil,
and although I did a lot of naughty things as a child, I always
steered away (and managed to steer most of my friends away) from
harmfu, illegal, etc activivites.
At the end of the day I think I will basically teach Luke (and
any others we have) to respect other people, races, creeds, etc. I
will try to instil my thoughts on right and wrong and I will encourage
him to read about as many religions as possible and to try and get him
to be as tolerant of other peoples beliefs as possible.
Basically I will try my best, nothing more and nothing less. I don't
feel anymore can be asked of me (or of course his mother)
Many thanks for everyone's opinions, answers, thoughts, etc.
Regards
Neil E.
Remove [removetoreply] from email address to mail me direct
Raingoddess
> Of course we have the right to determine our childrens' religion - or lack
> of it - we are their parents !
I appreciate what you're saying Lauren, but in my view, being the parent
does not give me the right over the child to make such a personal decision.
(I'm not being provocative, just stating another view.) I'm of the opinion
that children (in fact people generally) belong to themselves only.
>
> I am not going to teach her that all religions are equally valid, even
> though I will teach her factually about them as interesting philosophical
> theories. I won't teach her about them all and allow her to choose.
>
> I will not teach her all languages and allow her to decide which one to
> speak either. We are entitled - and surely, we are only able - to teach
our
> children what we believe.
The language issue is somewhat different, as we live in a culture where
there is one main language spoken nationally. Granted there are other
languages in use, but English is the standard one, which will allow a child
to be understood by pretty much all. The same cannot be said for religion
in the UK in 2002. It's also not necessary to have *any* religion - but
some form of language is almost essential. I don't think the two things are
comparable.
>
> The only question is how hard to push it. You have to pitch it just right
so
> that the teenage rebellion only goes so far, and then they swing back.
Don't
> push it so much that you push them away !
That sounds very reasonable, and sensible for anyone who is going to guide
their child in a particular direction.
> I will teach her to be an atheist, but without telling her just how much I
> loathe all organised religion, in case it makes one religion or another
> other look interesting !
>
>
Lauren
LOL! I can see your point. However as an atheist, I guess you wouldn't be
having any kind of ceremony which asserts her atheism! You're talking more
of a general way of bringing her up, rather than having a service or ritual
etc which in some way *dedicates* her to that philosphy. That's where I
have a problem with christenings etc, to me it's stating something on a
child's behalf, which in most cases, it is as yet incapable of deciding for
itself.
L
>
>
Raingoddess
Carol's right (and everyone else's!) to decide for themselves. I also feel
that should extend to my children. Like you, I'm a solitary, I find the
idea of practising with others restrictive for me.
I'm training to be a counsellor at the moment, and am focussing on an
approch called Person-Centred Therapy which emphasises the need to be
non-directive with clients. This means NOT giving advice or suggesting what
should be discussed in a session, etc, but letting the client dictate the
agenda, the pace, and so on. According to the person-centred theory, much
of the disturbance people suffer comes from "conditions of worth" placed
upon them by parents, peers, school, society and so on. I can certainly
relate to this, and am anxious to avoid placing an additional burden on my
children by expecting them to conform to any kind of religion. The same
applies to career choice and many other issues. For me, allowing my
children to have this freedom of choice is another way to promote their
individuality.
(I have a feeling I accidentally mailed this to you rather than posting it
here first, sorry!)
Lynne
Penny Gaines
[snip]
> In a vague attempt to get this thread back on-topic --- Darrren, do you
> feel that being initiated at 7 was the right thing, that you fully
> understood
> what was happening and was involved? Were you given a choice? I often
> wonder about the whole issue of any kind of initiation/christening/baptism
> of young children and babies, and whether it would be better to wait
> until the child is of an age to fully appreciate what's going on and to
> make a personal choice.
> I'd be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions, too. Do any of us
> really have a right to determine our childrens' religion at such a young
> age?
I haven't read most of this thread...
Baptism can refer to either of two different Christian ceremonies,
depending on the denomination of the person concerned.
In a Church of England church, baptism refers to infant baptism. The
parents/godparents affirm that they "turn to Christ" and "renounce evil",
and that they will bring the child up in a Christian way. I can't remember
the theology of it off-hand, but the child hasn't made any commitment
themself. The aim is to introduce the child to the "church family".
Later, the child will make their own commitment when they get confirmed:
now they are promising that they will do these things themselves. You
can't be confirmed without being baptised, but these can be done at the
same time. Some churches will baptise an adult without confirming them at
the same time.
In a Baptist church, you get adult baptism. The adult makes their
own commitment.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> "Resi" <re...@creamcow.com> wrote in message
> news:3DCD3578...@creamcow.com...
> > The bible teaches to not be disrespectful to your body (body
> > is a temple) yet the vast majority of people calling themselves
> > Christians are eating junk including genetically modified foods,
> > taking drugs and dangerous synthetic medications including
> > vaccinations etc.
> The Bible also teaches that God gives us freewill and the freedom
> to be 'guided' by His Word. Hence, there will always be Christian
> people who let their children grow up with a desire for worldly
> goods simply because they are 'free' to chose. However, when they
> grow up, each one will have some understanding of the philosophy
> that they can make a choice for themselves.
Yes but this does not really cover what I was saying.
> >>>>>> Every Christian has a different interpretation of what it means
> > to be Christian and so while each individual may strive to teach
> > their child to live as Jesus would, how many of them truly succeed?<<<<<
> Those who live as they are taught get nearer than those who don't.
So long as they are taught correctly or have interpreted correctly.
> >>>>>>> Most people in this thread and most people in general are exposed
> > to different philosophies and belief systems during their childhood
> > and adult life. It would be very difficult for a child to get
> > through their entire childhood without learning about various
> > religions.<<<<<<<<<<
> About? Or the Word of God?
Both. I am not Christian. I have been exposed to Christianity
my whole life including going to religious schools, reading the
bible and discussing Christianity with family and friends. The
degree of exposure would vary but the information is there if
one is interested enough to research themselves. If they are not
interested enough, I don't think it should be thrust on them
anyway.
> >>>>>>>>> If atheist parents were to expose their children to Christianity,
> > they would expose their children to other religions and belief
> > systems also which is counter to your objectives. <<<<<<<<<
> Have I objected to other faiths who believe in God, I don't
> remember? I think that you are reading into things a little.
Other faiths full stop, not just faiths that believe in God.
Resi
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> there is nothing in witchcraft that guides children philosophically
> or otherwise.
There are many many many "things" in this world that do not guide
people philosophically, spiritually or otherwise. Perhaps Santa
is a common example.
> It attracts people who are fascinated by all things evil,
Children are interested in a range of things. Children love
performing saonces, watching horror movies and "getting scared".
I don't think this means they are attracted to evil.
> has the highest truancy,
I think this is irrelevant. However, perhaps that is something
to do with the fact that the children did not volunteer to go
to school but are forced.
Resi
Lauren
>
> "Lauren" <richard.the...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:3dd7dedc$0$13374$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com..
> > Of course we have the right to determine our childrens' religion - or
lack
> > of it - we are their parents !
>
> I appreciate what you're saying Lauren, but in my view, being the parent
> does not give me the right over the child to make such a personal
decision.
> (I'm not being provocative, just stating another view.) I'm of the
opinion
> that children (in fact people generally) belong to themselves only.
But I am an atheist, so I find religion ridiculous at best, dangerous at
worst. I think it is important to teach my children about the dangers, but I
also think I have the right to teach my children what I 'believe' in, in the
expectation that they will 'believe' the same.
I believe Tottenham will win the Premiership one day, I believe all gods are
just made up stories, I believe Donny Osmond will top the charts again, I
believe Richard III was much maligned, I believe that portrait painting is
pointless since the camera was invented.
All trivial beliefs, but all mine to pass on to my children.
Only religious people think religion is important enough to worry about.
IMNSHO !
Lauren
Carol T
> How would you feel if I descibed my town as *rife with Christians*
Well if you were to use it in the same context as I did the term Witchcraft
you would say "rife with Christianity". It doesn't actually bother me at
all, why should it? Rife simply means widespread, endemic, predominant,
common etc..
> Of course there are some people attracted to paganism that are disturbed.
> But this applies equally to any religion - we've all heard too many
stories
> about priests who've abused their position.
Priests who are paedophiles are not Christians, they are just people who are
attracted to positions they can _use_ to be left alone with children. The
same as they are found in Social Services in top positions and the teaching
profession. If your organisation has lone children's activities you will
also find paedophiles there too. They have nothing to do with the philosophy
of the Scriptures or Christianity. They are not attracted by the teachings
of God, but the lure of prey.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Many people who are pagan feel unable to be open about their
> beliefs because of such ill-informed, incorrect and intolerant attitudes
as yours. A few facts for you in the hope of incresing your
understanding -<<<<<<<<<<
If all you do is pure and for the good of all then you certainly don't need
to fear bringing anything you do out into the open. Your beliefs should free
you, even in the face of what others think.
>>>>>>>>>>>I have read about people
> in cults being unable to leave - BUT in all denominations, not just pagan
> ones. I do not defend any organisation that seeks to keep people against
> their will.<<<<<<<<<<<
I wasn't referring to keeping people literal prisoners. Those people who are
evil who do get involved in Witchcraft don't know where to turn or what to
do to undo what they have been up to. Obviously those who feel they have
done no wrong are not going to be amongst them.
> 3. Wicca teaches that individuals have power, yes. But that means EVERY
> individual. <<<<<
In order for someone to have power they have to disempower someone else
somewhere down the line, that is fundamentally wrong and disrespectful of
the rights of others. Even doing something as simple as casting a spell,
which are not intended to harm, is an attempt to exercise power over other
individuals, i.e. to; live better than others, be more wealthy, be more
beautiful, have psychic knowledge, have wishes granted and so forth. A
desire for such power is egotistical and certainly not a basis for teaching
children to be righteous.
>>>>>>>>>Wiccans do not believe in *Satan* - that is a Christian
> notion.<<<<<<<<<
Satan is derived from the Semitic route stn, meaning to "obstruct", in
Hebrew "to rove" and in Arabic to "burn". It's simply the personification of
evil.
Satan refers to a member of God's council who objected to the appointment of
Joshua. This of course is the Old Testament and common to all the great
faiths.
Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the
angel
of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 3:2 And
the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that
hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the
fire? (NKJ)
>>>>>>>>I believe in ghosts due to having a chat with my granddad who died
while my
mum was carrying me. <<<<<<<<<<<
Necromancy is not a good thing. You are inviting the dead without truly
knowing what demons you have before you. Once you experience or learn
something that disturbs you it cannot be taken away from your mind. Then
what you have learned can live alongside you and your family to their
detriment for generations to come. Thus, something seemingly
harmless/fun/comforting now can become hurtful, it has the power to mess
with your mind, and in some cases it can become very dangerous.
God's wisdom is not there to harm you, but to guide you through using His
Words to understand the reasons things are the way they are. You have
already been misled by other believers of your organisation through their
inappropriate focus on the place satan has in Christianity, as I have shown
you. Your written belief is swallowed up in this focus too, it should be
able to stand firm on its own merits.
Christianity is not practiced in Christian schools by focusing on witchcraft
as a justification, nor through over emphasising the role of evil.
Carol T
Carol T
> As a practising. "Witch" I would love to know what makes you qualified
to
> say that it is evil.
I said that it attracts those who are fascinated by all things evil, and
whether you like it or not it can be used in VERY evil ways by the wrong
people. What I have said is fact. It is their perception that it is
attractive by its promised content, not mine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nd the reason why it is normally
> kept secret is because narrow minded people like yourself, spread nasty
> little rumours about sacrifices,child abuse etc.<<<<<<<<<<<<
If _other_people spread rumours like that it is 'because' what you do you
keep hidden, not because of anything anyone accuses your members of. You are
also trying to convince someone who has experienced quite close to home the
harm witchcraft can be used for. If you are not ashamed at what you do you
will bring it out into the open, you will set up churches to spread your
word and to help those people who have been captivated by the darker side of
meddling in something they don't understand and can't control, but don't
know how to get out of.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yet I am discouraged from
> openly admitting my religion in life due to the fact that people may think
> that it makes me a bad person. <<<<<<<<<<
You will remember that I said "whilst there is undoubtedly good people".
Now why do you think that people think you are a bad person, if it is those
who are drawn to what you are doing that give you that reputation then maybe
your organisation should be addressing it. Your religion should free you,
even in the face of grave danger, to openly admit what you believe to
anyone.
>>>>>>>>> I find your statement very slanderous and without any
background. <<<<<<<<<
"Any religion that parent's feel a need to carry out in secret needs to be
considered long and hard. Any religion that is based on secret writings,
secret words, 'degrees' and instils power on individual people is not a
religion at all but a cult. Children are far from stupid and they are also
born pure in Spirit, they know when something isn't right and they have deep
inner conflicts with it."
I am baffled as to how you equated the above statement to child abuse??????
I find it quite interesting really because both you and Lynne have taken
that statement to be referring to wicca alone and yet I was generalising as
a _warning_ to all parents in the newsgroup, it could be applied to many
different organisations. (note I started the statement with 'any' )
Carol T
Dennis Here
Lauren wrote in message -
>I will teach her to be an atheist, but without telling her just how much I
>loathe all organised religion, in case it makes one religion or another
>other look interesting !
Not sure that atheism can be taught. I should think it has to be a
conclusion someone makes after due consideration of a number of religions.
Personally, I would rather teach my children how to think for themselves
rather than what to think.
Dennis
Dennis Here
Raingoddess wrote in message ...
>I'd be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions, too. Do any of us
>really have a right to determine our childrens' religion at such a young
>age?
I see my role as a parent as one of guidance rather than trying to determine
my sons roles in life.
This includes religion, unfortunately my youngest son's school has other
ideas and takes no account of anyone other than Catholic. Problems looming
soon.
He is only six and due to visiting a number of museums has a good
understanding of Darwin's theory of evolution. He is now querying his
teacher about Adam and Eve!
Dennis
Raingoddess
>
YOU SAID:
> Well if you were to use it in the same context as I did the term
Witchcraft
> you would say "rife with Christianity". It doesn't actually bother me at
> all, why should it? Rife simply means widespread, endemic, predominant,
> common etc..
Carol, you seem to be very good at cutting and pasting to suit yourself! I
actually asked how you'd feel if I were to say it in the same scathing tone?
Let me remind you that your original sentence was -
"Having come from a town that is rife in Witchcraft I can tell you now that
it does nothing but damage children and all those involved." Put in ints
full context, it sounded pretty scathing to me.
YOU SAID:
> Priests who are paedophiles are not Christians, they are just people who
are
> attracted to positions they can _use_ to be left alone with children. The
> same as they are found in Social Services in top positions and the
teaching
> profession. If your organisation has lone children's activities you will
> also find paedophiles there too. They have nothing to do with the
philosophy
> of the Scriptures or Christianity. They are not attracted by the teachings
> of God, but the lure of prey.
I won't argue with that there are people willing to abuse their position
everywhere. There are people who claim to be Wiccan who do harm others -
but probably far less than you imagine, as you don't seem to fully
understand the nature of Wicca itself. And whilst on the subject -
I don't know what *organisation* you are referring to. I've already stated
that I practice my beliefs as a solitary. There is no central Wiccan
authority, nothing similar to the Vatican or the General Synod which
co-ordinates Wicca
- as you'd know if you bothered to research these things. If you see a
strange man on tv wearing what looks like a red dressing gown and claiming
to be the High Priest of British Witches, you can rest assured he does *not*
represent me, or any other serious Wiccan I know!
YOU SAID:
> If all you do is pure and for the good of all then you certainly don't
need
> to fear bringing anything you do out into the open. Your beliefs should
free
> you, even in the face of what others think.
I think I've already convered this. I have never said I was *in the broom
closet* personally, in fact my beliefs are widely known among my family and
friends. I am aware though, of many people who can't be as open, but I
don't expect you to understand, you've not been in that position. However,
it is true that in certain places even today, to stand up and openly say you
are Wiccan would be very dangerous. Such is still the way of the world,
unfortunately. I'm fortunate that I live in a tolerant place, those who
know are fine with my beliefs and I have no need to hide them. But equally
you won't find me or many other pagans playing the bodhran outside
Sainsbury's and calling others to come and join us. As I said before, I'm
not an evangeliser. I am perfectly happy to describe what I do though..
just ask politely.
YOU SAID:
I wasn't referring to keeping people literal prisoners. Those people who are
evil who do get involved in
Witchcraft don't know where to turn or what to
> do to undo what they have been up to. Obviously those who feel they have
> done no wrong are not going to be amongst them.
I also wasn't referring to literal prisoners. So tell me, do those who
abuse children under the guise of Christian service know "where to turn" -
unless it is for help in covering up the misdoings? There have been many
cases publicised where this was the case - but again, I don't tar all
Christians with this brush. I just feel it's an irrelevant argument.
YOU SAID:
> In order for someone to have power they have to disempower someone else
> somewhere down the line, that is fundamentally wrong and disrespectful of
> the rights of others. Even doing something as simple as casting a spell,
> which are not intended to harm, is an attempt to exercise power over other
> individuals, i.e. to; live better than others, be more wealthy, be more
> beautiful, have psychic knowledge, have wishes granted and so forth. A
> desire for such power is egotistical and certainly not a basis for
teaching
> children to be righteous.
Again, I disagree. I don't do an awful lot of what you would call casting
spells, (not all Wiccans do) but any I might cast would have been very
carefully considered first to ensure (as far as possible) that they harm
NONE.
For me, there is no sense of competition with others, as you imagine. I
certainly don't cast spells for such trivial things as beauty! Again, I
recommend you find out what REAL Wiccans do, rather than watching films like
The Craft! To clarify my idea of *power* (on which we seem to have
completely different ideas) - I believe that people (all people!) have
incredible power over their own lives, in what they decide to do, how they
behave, how they choose to treat others, and so on. Striving to reach my
own full potential, striving to be a kinder, more considerate person, does
not, for me, involve any disempowering of others. I fundamentally disagree
with you here, and am interested as to how you see that my attempting to be
the best I can has any detrimental effect on anyone else.
YOU SAID:
> Satan is derived from the Semitic route stn, meaning to "obstruct", in
> Hebrew "to rove" and in Arabic to "burn". It's simply the personification
of
> evil.
>
> Satan refers to a member of God's council who objected to the appointment
of
> Joshua. This of course is the Old Testament and common to all the great
> faiths.
>
> Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before
the
> angel
> of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 3:2
And
> the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD
that
> hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of
the
> fire? (NKJ)
Thanks for that. I was simply stating that satan is not recognised by
Wiccans. Satanists.. yes. Wiccans.. no.
They are NOT the same thing.
LYNDA SAID!!!!!:
> >>>>>>>>I believe in ghosts due to having a chat with my granddad who died
> while my
> mum was carrying me. <<<<<<<<<<<
YOU SAID:
> Necromancy is not a good thing. You are inviting the dead without truly
> knowing what demons you have before you. Once you experience or learn
> something that disturbs you it cannot be taken away from your mind. Then
> what you have learned can live alongside you and your family to their
> detriment for generations to come. Thus, something seemingly
> harmless/fun/comforting now can become hurtful, it has the power to mess
> with your mind, and in some cases it can become very dangerous.
>
At least try and get the attributions right! This was not my comment, it
was Lynda's, and as such I'll leave it to her to discuss it with you.
YOU SAID:
> God's wisdom is not there to harm you, but to guide you through using His
> Words to understand the reasons things are the way they are. You have
> already been misled by other believers of your organisation through their
> inappropriate focus on the place satan has in Christianity, as I have
shown
> you. Your written belief is swallowed up in this focus too, it should be
> able to stand firm on its own merits.
I'm now not sure if this is aimed at Lynda or myself, but if it's me, then I
thank you for your concern, but I do not feel I have been misled by anyone.
I wasn't introduced to Wicca by anyone, I found it myself after careful
research of different pagan religions. I'd also ask you to respect my right
to my own choice of religion, as I do yours and stop with the conversion
tactics. They really are a waste of your time, you know. ;-)
YOU SAID:
> Christianity is not practiced in Christian schools by focusing on
witchcraft
> as a justification, nor through over emphasising the role of evil.
I'm heartened to hear it. That means an awful lot has changed in recent
times.
My offer stands, if you are interested in knowing what I do as a practising
Wiccan, I am perfectly happy to discuss it with you, and I doubt there is
much there that will cause you offence or sleepless nights. You have only
to ask, but somehow I doubt you will - it might mean you have to revise your
opinions somewhat.
L
Raingoddess
YOU SAID:
If you are not ashamed at what you do you
> will bring it out into the open, you will set up churches to spread your
> word and to help those people who have been captivated by the darker side
of
> meddling in something they don't understand and can't control, but don't
> know how to get out of.
Set up churches? Why? Because it is what *you* understand? Wicca has
never been run that way, and there are many who wouldn't wish it to be. I
can't see it is the place of members of other religions to dictate this!
There are plenty of Wiccans around today who are willing to be open about
their beliefs, and who will happily tell you what they do at certain times
of year, or at full moon. I'm one of them. A simple search of the internet
will reveal a lot, as will a trip to the bookshops as previously stated. I
think you are failing to understand the full individuality of Wicca, or the
fact that the way Lynda celebrates Yule, Samhain or the Esbat may be
completely different to the way I do. There are probably things we have in
common, but if you attempted to set up a church and tried to accommodate all
the variants, you'd be up against an impossible task. Could you unite all
the Christian variants under one roof? I think not.
Add to this the vast number of solitaries like myself, who simply don't
*want* to practice with others. That is our right, just as it is a
Christian's right to pray at home and never go to a church service. It's
not necessarily about secrecy, just about what feels right for the
individual. I, for one, am not ashamed of what I do or believe.
There are increasing numbers of pagan/Wiccan events being held publicly -
meetings, conferences, etc. There are groups who meet to talk and
socialise, and many of these advertise openly on the internet and in
relevant publications. The secrecy is diminishing, albeit slowly, and I am
glad. Our beliefs are beginning to be recognised in mainstream papers,
magazines and so on, and without the tabloid nonsense and scaremongering
we've had to endure for too long. There are several Wiccan and pagan
newsgroups around too, most of which are subject to troll invasions but
which also have a good level of discussion going on.
Perhaps more could be done to help those who get into the kind of difficulty
you describe. I don't know, as I've never come across anyone personally who
has, in a Wiccan group. I believe there are organisations who will attempt
to help those involved with cults (of all descriptions) who want out. Every
responsible book and website on Wicca carries advice and a warning about
being cautious when getting involved with groups - but this really applies
to any religious organisation and not just Wicca. It's common sense. I
suppose by not being an organised religion in the sense you know it, Wicca
is open to criticism and accusation for not *policing* itself, but I think
most mature pagans accept enough personal responsibility to think about
their safety, and would rather that Wicca retained its current "form."
<large amounts of snippage>
YOU SAID:
> I find it quite interesting really because both you and Lynne have taken
> that statement to be referring to wicca alone and yet I was generalising
as
> a _warning_ to all parents in the newsgroup, it could be applied to many
> different organisations. (note I started the statement with 'any' )
This is simply supposition on your part.. I did NOT take it that you were
referring *only* to Wicca, but as it is the religion I practice, it's the
one I can post about with some knowledge. I feel your comment above is a
fudge, to avoid looking intolerant of Wicca, although the rest of your posts
on the subject suggest that you are exactly that. You didn't exactly cite
any other examples. You've already stated that you've had some kind of bad
experience close to home, and I feel that this may be unfairly colouring
your opinions of "Witchcraft" generally.
I fear this thread is now wildly off-topic. I don't wish to upset others in
the group by continuing this here if that's not what's wanted. I am,
however, perfectly happy to continue this debate with you (and anyone else
who cares to join in) here or by e-mail, but I have a spamtrap in place, so
please
let me know on group.
L
Resi
Carol T wrote:
> Priests who are paedophiles are not Christians, they are just
> people who are attracted to positions they can _use_ to be left
> alone with children. The same as they are found in Social Services
> in top positions and the teaching profession. If your organisation
> has lone children's activities you will also find paedophiles there
> too. They have nothing to do with the philosophy of the Scriptures
> or Christianity. They are not attracted by the teachings of God,
> but the lure of prey.
I think there are some double standards happening here. Paedophiles
are not Christian? What if they were Christian and then later became
paedophiles? If people do not follow the teachings of God, are they
not Christian? I ask you because most "Christians" do not follow the
teachings of God.
> If all you do is pure and for the good of all then you certainly
> don't need to fear bringing anything you do out into the open.
> Your beliefs should free you, even in the face of what others
> think.
I do not think there is anything wrong with privacy. This is
the same tact the State uses when they want to increase searching
powers... "nothing to fear, nothing to hide". I would not
presume that if someone is private or not wanting to share their
beliefs, ways of life, ethics, person, posessions etc., that they
have something to fear or they must be doing something "wrong".
Resi
H Duffy
>
> "darren giles" <darren...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:XOLB9.10920$B92.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> > As a practising. "Witch" I would love to know what makes you qualified
> to
> > say that it is evil.
>
> I said that it attracts those who are fascinated by all things evil, and
> whether you like it or not it can be used in VERY evil ways by the wrong
> people. What I have said is fact. It is their perception that it is
> attractive by its promised content, not mine.
Surely the same is true of Christianity? We could all make long lists of
genuinely evil people who professed to be Christians, and indeed of people
who committed evil acts in the name of Christianity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yet I am discouraged from
> > openly admitting my religion in life due to the fact that people may
think
> > that it makes me a bad person. <<<<<<<<<<
>
> You will remember that I said "whilst there is undoubtedly good people".
>
> Now why do you think that people think you are a bad person, if it is
those
> who are drawn to what you are doing that give you that reputation then
maybe
> your organisation should be addressing it. Your religion should free you,
> even in the face of grave danger, to openly admit what you believe to
> anyone.
And yet early Chirstians hid in caves and kept their religion a secret. Come
to that, some Christian denominations have had to hide their faith at
various points in history, and indeed in some countries, Christians _still_
practice in secret.
> >>>>>>>>> I find your statement very slanderous and without any
> background. <<<<<<<<<
>
>
> "Any religion that parent's feel a need to carry out in secret needs to be
> considered long and hard. Any religion that is based on secret writings,
> secret words, 'degrees' and instils power on individual people is not a
> religion at all but a cult. Children are far from stupid and they are also
> born pure in Spirit, they know when something isn't right and they have
deep
> inner conflicts with it."
>
> I am baffled as to how you equated the above statement to child
abuse??????
I don't equate that statement with child abuse, but I still think it's
ignorant and offensive. What you have described fits pretty much _any_
religion in its early stages, and many religions in later stages too. Your
statement makes me think that you not only don't know a lot about
non-Christian religions, but that you also don't know much about
Christianity either.
> I find it quite interesting really because both you and Lynne have taken
> that statement to be referring to wicca alone and yet I was generalising
as
> a _warning_ to all parents in the newsgroup, it could be applied to many
> different organisations. (note I started the statement with 'any' )
Do you include Christianity in this then?
H