Anti goth - anti gun...
Richard Markham
All about the Columbine school shootings, featuring a tame gun toting
goth with chums shooting old PC's and TV's....
No mention of how the killers aquired their weapons (via a straw
purchase), or what their teachers or parents had to say about them, but
plenty of footage from inside a goth club with Siouxsie playing on the
PA!
At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view -
except for being paranoid about Y2K and the breakdown of society - but
then he was American.
--
Richard Markham
Captain M
>
> Well that "documentary" tonight was interesting.
> All about the Columbine school shootings, featuring a tame gun toting
> goth with chums shooting old PC's and TV's....
Last night's Channel 4 news also had a report on the Denver shootings in
the light of what has since emerged about what really happened. It's now
claimed, from eyewitness evidence, that the two gunmen were probably
acting alone – there was no serious conspiracy – and moreover did not
target specific groups of students such as blacks and 'jocks': they were
firing indiscriminately on anyone they could find. Now that the witchunt
hysteria has died down somewhat and people are starting to take a cooler
and more collected look at last April's events it seems the goth/Manson
factor is rapidly diminishing in importance as a causal factor.
> At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view -
> except for being paranoid about Y2K and the breakdown of society - but
> then he was American.
I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he had to to say, especially
the bit about shooting TV sets because of all the crap put out by the
media; but then he started spouting all that survivalist stuff. But, as
you say, this was America where people tend to take this apocalypse
business far more seriously.
Captain M
Mouse
> At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view
Yeah, isn't it great how every goth featured was shown holding a gun.
Does the goth image a world of good. Then there was the lad in the
check shirt and baseball cap who 'used to dress like that, because he
liked the dreariness of goth and the association with death. Cos goths
aren't scared of death, they look forward to it.' Whoops if I'm not
careful I'll start another thread on 'what is goth'. But that's been
done to death (sorry...) already.
Fi :o)
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CiPHER
concerned. Not a single sensible one among them...
======
CiPHER
======
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www.hearnewmusic.co.uk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kevin O' Gorman
>No mention of how the killers aquired their weapons (via a straw
>purchase), or what their teachers or parents had to say about them, but
>plenty of footage from inside a goth club with Siouxsie playing on the
>PA!
And they let the police chief away with claiming that the SWAT team
"engaged" the two nutters, when they'd already been dead for 30 mins
when the first team entered the building. And they perpetuated the
myth of the whole "do you believe in God" - "Yes" <bang!> thing.
(Already a bestseller, soon to be a TV movie.)
Remember people, they're a Christian fundamentalist state - and they
have the bomb.
K.
-
--
The Love Generation failed! The Mayhem Generation is go!
Silly hex addresses are dead! Long live http://stunbunny.org/!
Fiona
Mouse <fiona.gow...@tab.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:17599f0b...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
> In article <+h4jCIAF...@markham.demon.co.uk>, Richard Markham
> <Ric...@markham.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Well that "documentary" tonight was interesting.
> <snip>
> > At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view
>
> Yeah, isn't it great how every goth featured was shown holding a gun.
> Does the goth image a world of good. Then there was the lad in the
> check shirt and baseball cap who 'used to dress like that, because he
> liked the dreariness of goth and the association with death. Cos goths
> aren't scared of death, they look forward to it.' Whoops if I'm not
> careful I'll start another thread on 'what is goth'. But that's been
> done to death (sorry...) already.
>
> Fi :o)
then saying quietly "But..."!
I was pissed off too that they focused on the "ex-goth" friend of the
killers
talking about their obsession with death and acceptance of it as if
because that was a major part of goth it could be a cause of the tragedy.
IMHO we're more into the imagery of death than the reality anyway - I've
never met
a goth who was obsessed with death itself, on the contrary I've found more
party animals, living life to the full, in goth than in "normal" circles.
Personally I'd like to postpone death for as long as possible! I even quite
like the idea of eternal life, as long as myself and all my nearest and
dearest get it and eternal youth (well, I'll settle for as youthful as I am
now, anyway) as well!
Fiona
PS As long as you're Fi and I'm Fiona we shouldn't have a "Karl, KARL, karl"
problem! You were here first so I hope I don't have to think up a name! :)
PIPALUKI
>Well that "documentary" tonight was interesting.
>goth with chums shooting old PC's and TV's....
Only in America eh ?? Actually this doesn't strike me as at all represntative
of American goths who in my experience, although a bit more serious than their
UK counterparts were generally more intelligent.
You'd think intelligence dictated that, as bill hicks once said "there is a
difference between having a gun and killing someone and NOT having a gun and
NOT killing someone". Maybe not though.
>
>No mention of how the killers aquired their weapons (via a straw
>purchase), or what their teachers or parents had to say about them, but
>plenty of footage from inside a goth club with Siouxsie playing on the
>PA!
>
I think there was an attempt to portray Gothic "society" as sick and weird
which, if we're honest, it is a bit. It certainly was never intended to be
"dominoes and a nice cup of tea" now was it ?? The siouxie track was a nice
touch althogh the general effect was a bit liike that Babycham advert from the
80's.
>At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view -
>except for being paranoid about Y2K and the breakdown of society - but
>then he was American.
I don't think you can be paranoid about the breakdown of society can you ?? I
mean even in merry olde england not that long ago we had fascists bombing soho
and Brixton- hardly utopian.
We have a society where people are reliant on technology they barely even
undestand, where people are encouraged to breed like rabbits (in the interests
of the market of course) despite rampant overpopulation and we face
enviromental catastrophe. On top of that, if you think things like rascism,
bigotry and general nastiness have gone away, think again.
Still. thats no excuse to pick up guns IMHO- in fact that will only make things
worse. If someone tommorrow put ALL the opffensive weapons on earth in a giant
rocket and flew it straight into the sun I GUARANTEE the world would be a
better place.
Wow- I'm really ranting now.
Whatever. In all the lurid speculation about the two boys at columbine I think
one bare fact was largely overlooked.
"They were pissed off. They had guns".
Not a good equation in my books
Filthy Rikky.
(The return of the ten legged graveyard groove machine)
Mouse
<Fiona....@sdlabz.com> wrote:
> PS As long as you're Fi and I'm Fiona we shouldn't have a "Karl,
> KARL, karl"
> problem! You were here first so I hope I don't have to think up a
> name! :)
I saw a post by you recently and thought 'Damn, she's using her own
name, why didn't I think of that...der', but I've always posted as
'Mouse', and usually sign off as 'Fi', so it's not a problem.
Fi :o)
One day of commuting hell left, then never again, whoopee!
pengu...@my-deja.com
"Fiona" <fiona....@sdlabz.com> wrote:
> IMHO we're more into the imagery of death than the reality anyway -
I've
> never met
> a goth who was obsessed with death itself, on the contrary I've found
more
> party animals, living life to the full, in goth than in "normal"
circles.
I *am* obsessed with death, and I feel distinctly isolated among other
goths much of the time. The pink fluffy crap and the crap pop music on
the UK scene are especially alienating. I am often disappointed at the
lack of the morbidity I had expected and hoped for when I first
encountered this subculture.
It's all gone downhill in the UK since Ian Curtis died...
AP
NP: some Valor Christian Death crap I'm reviewing.
Fiona
Mouse <fiona.gow...@tab.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> I saw a post by you recently and thought 'Damn, she's using her own
> name, why didn't I think of that...der', but I've always posted as
> 'Mouse', and usually sign off as 'Fi', so it's not a problem.
up with was either really pretentious or used by someone else. I used Circe
for a few posts but then I stopped using deja and it was too difficult to
use an alias in my newsreader. In the end I just decided to go for it -
getting flamed as me or getting flamed as an alias- if I get flamed it's
still me getting flamed! :)
Sorry, that was a bit rambling!
Fiona
Whisky Dave
PIPALUKI <pipa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991125065114...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
>
>
> Only in America eh ?? Actually this doesn't strike me as at all
represntative
> of American goths who in my experience, although a bit more serious than
their
> UK counterparts were generally more intelligent.
How did you aquire this 'knowledge'?
> >
> I think there was an attempt to portray Gothic "society" as sick and
weird
> which, if we're honest, it is a bit.
In what way?, in general we don't pay to watch people beat the shit out of
each
other and call it a sport.. We don't go to watch people killing
defenceless animals
being torn apart or shot at.
Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws ourselves
up.
>
> >At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view -
> >except for being paranoid about Y2K and the breakdown of society - but
> >then he was American.
>
> I don't think you can be paranoid about the breakdown of society can you
??
Seems some are.
> I
> mean even in merry olde england not that long ago we had fascists bombing
soho
> and Brixton- hardly utopian.
But more utopian than the USA perhaps lets see 1998, 31 people killed
illegaly by guns in the UK.
In the USA 9000+
can't remeber exact stats it was around 30 UK & 9000 US
And yes I do know the US has about *5* the population of UK.
How many of the colombin toye shootings have there been in the UK
around 3 or 4 I thin. In the US, well I remember 4 or 5 since the columbin
one
and I've not scoured the papers for them.
> We have a society where people are reliant on technology they barely even
> undestand, where people are encouraged to breed like rabbits (in the
interests
> of the market of course) despite rampant overpopulation and we face
> enviromental catastrophe. On top of that, if you think things like
rascism,
> bigotry and general nastiness have gone away, think again.
I'll agree with that.
> Still. thats no excuse to pick up guns IMHO- in fact that will only make
things
> worse. If someone tommorrow put ALL the opffensive weapons on earth in a
giant
> rocket and flew it straight into the sun I GUARANTEE the world would be a
> better place.
It's certainly create a good market for gun manufacters. ;-)
> Whatever. In all the lurid speculation about the two boys at columbine I
think
> one bare fact was largely overlooked.
>
> "They were pissed off. They had guns".
>
> Not a good equation in my books
Agreed.
PIPALUKI
>
>How did you aquire this 'knowledge'?
By going to the US several times and talking to people. It's actually my
opinion that Yanks as a general rule ARE better educated and more intelligent
than us Brits... it's just that we tend to stereotype them as dumb. Trust me ,
they're not
OK- you can never generalise,. but one way of putting it is that far more
Americans seem to go on to higher education. .
.>> I think there was an attempt to portray Gothic "society" as sick and
>weird
>> which, if we're honest, it is a bit.
>
>In what way?, in general we don't pay to watch people beat the shit out of
>each
>each
>other and call it a sport.. We don't go to watch people killing
>defenceless animals
>being torn apart or shot at.
>
No we don't- but from a "Normal perpective" gothic subculture IS deviant. I'm
not saying I hold this perspective its just that personally I don't subscirbe
to Goth being a backwood nostalgia hippy bullshit trip with a perky smile on
it's face and nice 80's values.
Try the orginal decadents and the romantics of the victorian and edwardian
periods, they flaunted their behaviour aware of it's political impact becuase
confirmity relies on uniformity. And it worked- people remember Wilde and Byron
more than Kitchener and Stanley.
Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
nutshell ??
I was trying to say that the truth about (IMHO) goth is that it IS antisocial,
transgressive and so on. I think your right to say that , as a rule, we don't
get our jollies from hurting people but perhaps that may, in itself, be
regarded as deviant I might (humbly) suggest.
Put it a another way. I personally have no urge to see what I am regarded as
"acceptable" by people I have no respect for.
>Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws ourselves
>up.
I don't agree. Maybe not OD'ing but certainly indulging. I hate to get all "Al
Crowley" on your ass but I think we've kind of replaced decadence with dabbling
in the UK. I dunno- it's like Dennis Leary said- you always hear about the BAD
drug / drink experiences but never the GOOD ones.
And personally I may have had more of the latter than the former, I may not.Hey
shit it's MY choice.
Filthy Rikky
Mouse
"Fiona" <Fiona....@sdlabz.com> wrote:
> In the end I just decided to go
> for it -
> getting flamed as me or getting flamed as an alias- if I get
> flamed it's
> still me getting flamed! :)
Yep. I originally posted as mouse cos I wanted to be anonymous and it
was my nickname at uni. But no chance of being anonymous on upg.
Unless you're a complete hermit.
> Sorry, that was a bit rambling!
Don't worry about it, there's really no point me replying to this
anyway, except I'm pissed cos I've been in the pub since 1pm. Got to do
it all again tomorrow... shame eh? :o)))
Fi :o)
Sciamachy
<fiona.gow...@tab.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>Yeah, isn't it great how every goth featured was shown holding a gun.
>Does the goth image a world of good. Then there was the lad in the
>check shirt and baseball cap who 'used to dress like that, because he
>liked the dreariness of goth and the association with death. Cos goths
>aren't scared of death, they look forward to it.'
So... am I alone in being shit-scared of dying? I mean, pain & stuff
I'm not exactly into but have been known to suffer in silence, but the
concept of not existing at all, that all that I'll ever do or amount
to ultimately will be nothing. I know it's inevitable and all, but I
still don't want to do it.
Matt
Richard Markham
<pipa...@aol.com> writes
>
>>Well that "documentary" tonight was interesting.
>>All about the Columbine school shootings, featuring a tame gun toting
>>goth with chums shooting old PC's and TV's....
>
>of American goths who in my experience, although a bit more serious than their
How do you work that one out?
>
>>At least the goth guy was well spoken and put a good point of view -
>>except for being paranoid about Y2K and the breakdown of society - but
>>then he was American.
>
>I don't think you can be paranoid about the breakdown of society can you ?? I
>mean even in merry olde england not that long ago we had fascists bombing soho
>and Brixton- hardly utopian.
Yeah, but I didn't start a weapons cache....
Brits seem to take just about anything in their stride - except the
French that is.... ;-)
Perhaps i should order an extra pint'er for the millenium, you know,
just in case....
>
>We have a society where people are reliant on technology they barely even
>undestand, where people are encouraged to breed like rabbits (in the interests
>of the market of course) despite rampant overpopulation and we face
>enviromental catastrophe. On top of that, if you think things like rascism,
>bigotry and general nastiness have gone away, think again.
>
>Still. thats no excuse to pick up guns IMHO- in fact that will only make things
>worse. If someone tommorrow put ALL the opffensive weapons on earth in a giant
>rocket and flew it straight into the sun I GUARANTEE the world would be a
>better place.
>
>Wow- I'm really ranting now.
You said it.......
>
>Whatever. In all the lurid speculation about the two boys at columbine I think
>one bare fact was largely overlooked.
>
>"They were pissed off. They had guns".
>
>Not a good equation in my books
>
>Filthy Rikky.
>(The return of the ten legged graveyard groove machine)
--
Richard Markham
Jodi
>We have a society where people are reliant on technology they barely even
>undestand, where people are encouraged to breed like rabbits (in the interests
>of the market of course) despite rampant overpopulation and we face
>enviromental catastrophe. On top of that, if you think things like rascism,
>bigotry and general nastiness have gone away, think again.
Erk.
I agree with Ricky.
The world really is coming to an end.
Jodi
--
as a matter of fact, I do own the dance floor
PIPALUKI
>Erk.
>
>I agree with Ricky.
>
>The world really is coming to an end.
50 years tops say I. Filthy von Nostradamus they used to call me*
Filthy Rikky
*Actually I think it was something along the lines of "oi you arrogant bastard"
but I could be mistaken again.
Tom Sulston
> It's all gone downhill in the UK since Ian Curtis died...
Yeah, from somewhere all these bloody goths appeared........ ;-)
--
Tom Sulston ICQ# 31612067 Mr_Tom on #agf
- http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~bsumq -
Not bitchy, just snobbish and intolerant
Ash
>Well that "documentary" tonight was interesting.
>All about the Columbine school shootings, featuring a tame gun toting
>goth with chums shooting old PC's and TV's....
I was a little annoyed at the set of jocks.
They all just contradicted themselves there;
First one "There was no bullying."
Second "They bullied us, we bullied them."
Third. "We bullied them, only as much as everyone else."
Well make up your damn minds kids.
--
Ash.
Jennie Kermode
>IMHO we're more into the imagery of death than the reality anyway - I've
>never met a goth who was obsessed with death itself, on the contrary I've
>found more party animals, living life to the full, in goth than in
>"normal" circles.
I've found that the goths I know are generally more familiar
with death - the death of friends and relatives, or illnesses and suchlike
making a point of thier own mortality - than the average person is; or, at
any rate, they're more willing to admit to that. I think there's more
_recognition_ of death among goths, but that doesn't mean that anyone is
looking forward to it. Furthermore, I'd say that awareness of one's
mortality provides all the more reason to live life to the full.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk/jennie jen...@innocent.com
Pete Scathe
>
>So... am I alone in being shit-scared of dying? I mean, pain & stuff
>I'm not exactly into but have been known to suffer in silence, but the
>concept of not existing at all, that all that I'll ever do or amount
>to ultimately will be nothing. I know it's inevitable and all, but I
>still don't want to do it.
>
Oh god, I'm a goth.
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 19th December)
club info & daft haircuts: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
Fiona
Sciamachy <scia...@zoom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aX49OEu8LUCCdiqZ9Oa2OEf2a=r...@4ax.com...
> So... am I alone in being shit-scared of dying? I mean, pain & stuff
> I'm not exactly into but have been known to suffer in silence, but the
> concept of not existing at all, that all that I'll ever do or amount
> to ultimately will be nothing. I know it's inevitable and all, but I
> still don't want to do it.
what happens next. OK, maybe there is an afterlife and I'll get to be a
ghost or something :) but deep down I don't believe that.
Are atheists allowed to believe in an afterlife anyway? ;)
Fiona
Whisky Dave
> >> UK counterparts were generally more intelligent.
> >
>
> By going to the US several times and talking to people. It's actually my
> opinion that Yanks as a general rule ARE better educated and more
intelligent
> than us Brits...
Can't say I agree in really.
You only have to look at who wins the Darwin awards. :)
> it's just that we tend to stereotype them as dumb. Trust me ,
> they're not
BTW My flatmates American.
Did anyone say they were, to me it just seems that they have different
social priorities and outlook to 'us' (UK not US)
> OK- you can never generalise,. but one way of putting it is that far more
> Americans seem to go on to higher education. .
But their 'higher' education is one step down from our definiotion.
Theier higher education is more in line with our 6th form colleges
adnn old polytecnics.
>
> No we don't- but from a "Normal perpective" gothic subculture IS deviant.
Well maybe we have different views on whats deviant. ;-)
>
> Try the orginal decadents and the romantics of the victorian and
edwardian
> periods, they flaunted their behaviour aware of it's political impact
becuase
> confirmity relies on uniformity. And it worked- people remember Wilde and
Byron
> more than Kitchener and Stanley.
But what does that prove or indicate, nothing that isn't part of natural of
things.
> Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
> nutshell ??
You mean Van Goth :)
> I was trying to say that the truth about (IMHO) goth is that it IS
antisocial,
> transgressive and so on. I think your right to say that , as a rule, we
don't
> get our jollies from hurting people but perhaps that may, in itself, be
> regarded as deviant I might (humbly) suggest.
So being deviant is just a label that means goths don't do what non-goths
do.
Which doesn't mean that much all in all.
What I'me saying is if non-goths wipe their arse using ttheir right hand
does that make goths devient if the use their left hand?.
(personally I use toilet paper)
>
> Put it a another way. I personally have no urge to see what I am regarded
as
> "acceptable" by people I have no respect for.
I think I agree with that.
>
> >Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws
ourselves
> >up.
>
> I don't agree. Maybe not OD'ing but certainly indulging. I hate to get
all "Al
> Crowley" on your ass but I think we've kind of replaced decadence with
dabbling
> in the UK.
Maybe, but it seems that we[1] spend more time trying to copy Americian
values.
>I dunno- it's like Dennis Leary said- you always hear about the BAD
> drug / drink experiences but never the GOOD ones.
I though that was a bill Hicks quote.
[1] Not me or most people I know.
>
>
your.i...@susx.ac.uk
>
>g
>
>Are atheists allowed to believe in an afterlife anyway? ;)
>
mean you don't accept 'there are more things in heaven and earth than
are dreamt of in our philosophy"
but you have no grounds for believing there is.
Samantha (living like there *is* no tomorrow)
Jodi
>Maybe, but it seems that we[1] spend more time trying to copy Americian
>values.
>[1] Not me or most people I know.
So true. If the British really hate American culture and values so
much, why is this country as overrun with Burger Kings, McDonalds,
out-of-town malls, etc? It's getting to be that I know more Americans
that won't go near any of these establishments than Brits...
Sure, the Americans can take their money and start new branches, but
last time I checked, we aren't forced to use this stuff.
nothing
jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk picked up a chunky crayon and scribbled...
> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:41:32 -0000, Whisky Dave wrote:
>
> >Maybe, but it seems that we[1] spend more time trying to copy Americian
> >values.
>
> >[1] Not me or most people I know.
Me either.
> So true. If the British really hate American culture and values so
> much, why is this country as overrun with Burger Kings, McDonalds,
Don't count me in that list! I haven't been to a McBastards in over 15
years ever since I found out that some of the money piped back to the
States was then re-directed back into the coffers of the 'political'
arm of (at least one) well-known terrorist organisation.
> Sure, the Americans can take their money and start new branches, but
> last time I checked, we aren't forced to use this stuff.
So I don't.
--
nothing
PyroJames
Jennie Kermode <jen...@skinner.demon.co.uk> wrote
> Fiona <Fiona....@sdlabz.com> wrote:
> >IMHO we're more into the imagery of death than the reality anyway - I've
> >never met a goth who was obsessed with death itself, on the contrary I've
> >found more party animals, living life to the full, in goth than in
> >"normal" circles.
>
> I've found that the goths I know are generally more familiar
> with death - the death of friends and relatives, or illnesses and suchlike
> making a point of thier own mortality - than the average person is; or, at
> any rate, they're more willing to admit to that. I think there's more
> _recognition_ of death among goths, but that doesn't mean that anyone is
> looking forward to it. Furthermore, I'd say that awareness of one's
> mortality provides all the more reason to live life to the full.
>
> Jennie
>
The "living life to the full" approach suggests to me that there is a strong
recognition of mortality. Along the line of "eat, drink and be merrry for
tomorrow we die". Although I wouldn't say that I was obsessed with death, I
think that I give it a lot more thought than most of the people I know. I
would also suggest that many viewing this thread from outside Goth would
find the casual nature of the discussion somewhat odd.
For me the living life to the full is a recognition that I am not immortal
and that I do not know how long I am going to live. I have no plans to
hinder my enjoyment of today in order to plan for ten years time, becuase I
may well be dead by then. I undertake quite a lot of high risk activity, not
though a death wish but for adventure and pushing myself to my limits, I
guess.
I am certainly not looking forward to death, but unlike an earlier comment
about immortality, I would hate to live forever, no matter how many new
experiences you could have and people you could meet, I feel that you would
eventually become bored or schizophrenic if exposed to life for too long. At
times I still feel that death would remove some of the trauma of everyday
existence and that the trauma of death itself for me is not a problem
(although it would be for those around me). The problem is that I would miss
out on so many other things that I want to do in the meantime. Ten years
ago, when I felt I had little to look forward to, it was only those around
me that kept me going.
--
PyroJames
Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets.
Blackbird
>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:41:32 -0000, Whisky Dave wrote:
>
> >Maybe, but it seems that we[1] spend more time trying to copy Americian
> >values.
>
> >[1] Not me or most people I know.
>
> much, why is this country as overrun with Burger Kings, McDonalds,
> last time I checked, we aren't forced to use this stuff.
>
Well, apart from the fast food chains (which, incidentally, you'll find
a lot of people on this newsgroup actively boycott anyway.. even if its
just because the food stinks) I think a lot of younger people are fed so
much americana in the media they have trouble differentiating the two
countries anyway (despite some interesting divergence in politics
between the two). And then people moan on about the ECU stripping the
UK of its cultural identity when the turgid US economy has been allowed
to strip it nearly all away anyway.
--
Guy
"To err is human, but to foul things up completely requires a computer"
hollyhollyholly
<fiona....@sdlabz.com> wrote:
> >Are atheists allowed to believe in an afterlife anyway? ;)
> >
> humm yeah...just because you don't believe in a theistic God doesn't
> mean you don't accept 'there are more things in heaven and earth than
> are dreamt of in our philosophy"
Wouldn't that be agnosticism, then?
-holly
___o
i come old friend from hell tonight across the rotting sea ... ___o
hollyhollyholly...holly@nodens.physics.ox.ac.uk____o
your.i...@susx.ac.uk
>
>Did anyone say they were, to me it just seems that they have different
>social priorities and outlook to 'us' (UK not US)
>
hum yeah, like their politics is all right of uk conservative...
>But their 'higher' education is one step down from our definiotion.
>Theier higher education is more in line with our 6th form colleges
>adnn old polytecnics.
>
Americans at Sussex say it's more like school over there and they find
uk universty hard work...
>>
>> No we don't- but from a "Normal perpective" gothic subculture IS deviant.
>
>Well maybe we have different views on whats deviant. ;-)
>
Being deviant is becoming so generally acceptable it's lost it's meaning,
the kind of stuff you have to do to be thought really odd is quite
extreme.
>>
>
>> Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
>> nutshell ??
>
>You mean Van Goth :)
>
mixing art into the mainstream intellectual culture (I think
decadence is already there)is the way forwards...(as most of what is
explainable is being worked on by science, philosophers should look to
surrealism to express the unexplainable...)
>> I was trying to say that the truth about (IMHO) goth is that it IS
>antisocial,
I have to say I can see it only as purely social..what is a goth
without other goths? just a person in too much make up and strange
clothes.
.
>> Put it a another way. I personally have no urge to see what I am regarded
>as
>> "acceptable" by people I have no respect for.
>
>I think I agree with that.
>
me too...but then how do you judge who to respect? someone has to give
us a measure to work by (well, ok, you can try to decide each action
ex vacuo but it sort of gets a bit wearing)...I certainly don't judge
this on appearance only (or at least try not to)
>>
>Maybe, but it seems that we[1] spend more time trying to copy Americian
>values.
>
>>I dunno- it's like Dennis Leary said- you always hear about the BAD
>> drug / drink experiences but never the GOOD ones.
>
I've heard some good ones, but that doesn't make me want to do lots of
drugs...(I just like to have fun...this tends to be less costly
without chemical assistance) I don't think drugs are innately Goth
anyway. Just a part of going clubbing in general.
>
>[1] Not me or most people I know.
definitely not me.
Samantha
Alex Page
ho...@nodens.physics.ox.expungethisbit.ac.uk (hollyhollyholly) wrote:
> Wouldn't that be agnosticism, then?
Yes. If you're not sure, or haven't made up your mind, you're
agnostic. IMO Atheism isn't just a disbelief in the Xian God or other
religions, it's a total disbelief in religion in general. That's why I
tend to capitalise it, because I don't see why it shouldn't be
afforded the same respect as other faiths.
Although Nihilism's fun to try - refusing to believe *anything*.
Beating your head against a wall until you lose consciousness because
you refuse to accept that what people told you about beating your head
against walls is *such* fun...
Alex
--
"We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you... so we're going to tell you."
- The Irony Badgers
MancGoff: http://www.gothicdreams.net/grimoire
Alex Page
> Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
> nutshell ??
No, baby, this is goth in a nutshell:
"Help, help, I'm in this nutshell! What a ridiculous and futile
concept. Everyone knows you don't get nutshells this big. What a
depressing so-called-comic moment this is. I'm going to listen to Joy
Division and mope."
Blackbird
>
> On 25 Nov 1999 14:31:54 GMT, pipa...@aol.com (PIPALUKI) wrote:
>
> > Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
> > nutshell ??
>
> No, baby, this is goth in a nutshell:
>
> "Help, help, I'm in this nutshell! What a ridiculous and futile
> concept. Everyone knows you don't get nutshells this big. What a
> depressing so-called-comic moment this is. I'm going to listen to Joy
> Division and mope."
Nice to see someones in fine form on a friday afternoon...
Jodi
>In article <81lo53$1ln$1...@beta.qmw.ac.uk>, "Whisky Dave" <d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>Did anyone say they were, to me it just seems that they have different
>>social priorities and outlook to 'us' (UK not US)
>>
>hum yeah, like their politics is all right of uk conservative...
All their mainstream politics, yeah
>
>>But their 'higher' education is one step down from our definiotion.
>>Theier higher education is more in line with our 6th form colleges
>>adnn old polytecnics.
>>
>
>Americans at Sussex say it's more like school over there and they find
>uk universty hard work...
I had no problems when I did my third year at Leeds (and I don't think
Canadian universities are that different from American ones). And I was
on a course where all the English people had at least one A at A level.
I think it depends what sort of university they go to in the States -
for the most part the Americans on my exchange programme at Leeds didn't
have any problems but they came from places like North Carolina at
Chapel Hill which aren't quite Harvard but close enough.
>>>
>>> No we don't- but from a "Normal perpective" gothic subculture IS deviant.
>>
>>Well maybe we have different views on whats deviant. ;-)
>>
>Being deviant is becoming so generally acceptable it's lost it's meaning,
> the kind of stuff you have to do to be thought really odd is quite
>extreme.
And not worth the effort, for the most part.
Dave (Exile)
> > > humm yeah...just because you don't believe in a theistic God doesn't
> > > mean you don't accept 'there are more things in heaven and earth than
> > > are dreamt of in our philosophy"
holly:
> > Wouldn't that be agnosticism, then?
Alex:
> Yes. If you're not sure, or haven't made up your mind, you're
> agnostic. IMO Atheism isn't just a disbelief in the Xian God or other
> religions, it's a total disbelief in religion in general. That's why I
> tend to capitalise it, because I don't see why it shouldn't be
> afforded the same respect as other faiths.
Or looked at another way, No.
Just because something's not covered by human experience, science or philosophy
doesn't make it religion, or even deity-related. It is possible to be
atheistic - roughly interpreted as "not accepting the existence of any deity"
and still believe in matters which are commonly thought of as "supernatural" or
"paranormal", which are both IMO terms humankind has invented to make itself
feel more complacent about things it can't explain logically by
compartmentalising them. I have had personal experience of things which, had I
not experienced them myself, I would have dismissed as not possible - but I
still consider myself to be an atheist.
> Although Nihilism's fun to try - refusing to believe *anything*.
> Beating your head against a wall until you lose consciousness because
> you refuse to accept that what people told you about beating your head
> against walls is *such* fun...
Well, so you say... obviously I can't believe you though ;-)
-------
Dave
next Exile: Saturday 4th December
web site http://www.drischmi.dircon.co.uk/exile
Dave (Exile)
> >> I was trying to say that the truth about (IMHO) goth is that it IS
> >antisocial,
>
> I have to say I can see it only as purely social..what is a goth
> without other goths? just a person in too much make up and strange
> clothes.
Hmm, I have to disagree with that one. I knew virtually no other goths for the
best part of a decade (admittedly I didn't exactly seek them out), but for me
it was always more about my personal direction in creative and spiritual
development rather than having people to go out clubbing with (not that I went
out clubbing much anyway).
Alex Page
<dris...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> Alex:
> > IMO Atheism isn't just a disbelief in the Xian God or other
> > religions, it's a total disbelief in religion in general.
> Just because something's not covered by human experience, science or philosophy
> doesn't make it religion, or even deity-related. It is possible to be
> atheistic - roughly interpreted as "not accepting the existence of any deity"
> and still believe in matters which are commonly thought of as "supernatural" or
> "paranormal"
I don't see how these two contradict each other... it's possible to
believe in the paranormal without attatching religious significance to
the things you witness, hence Atheism and the paranormal are not
mutually exclusive.
I don't believe in God. I don't believe in ghosts. But I think there
are things we can't explain.
HiRez
> Don't count me in that list! I haven't been to a McBastards in over 15
> years ever since I found out that some of the money piped back to the
> States was then re-directed back into the coffers of the 'political'
> arm of (at least one) well-known terrorist organisation.
Hm. Dead Granny?[1]
Was this not some confusion over IRA (Irish Republican Army) and IRA
(Individual Retirement Account)?
--
J "BICBW" H-R
[1] Cix-speak for 'Urban legend'
Dave (Exile)
> > Just because something's not covered by human experience, science or
philosophy
> > doesn't make it religion, or even deity-related. It is possible to be
> > atheistic - roughly interpreted as "not accepting the existence of any
deity"
> > and still believe in matters which are commonly thought of as
"supernatural" or
> > "paranormal"
Alex:
> I don't see how these two contradict each other... it's possible to
> believe in the paranormal without attatching religious significance to
> the things you witness, hence Atheism and the paranormal are not
> mutually exclusive.
Er, that was what I was saying, wasn't it? Unless I've missed something... I
was commenting that accepting "paranormal" or unexplained phenomena was nowt to
do with religion and therefore not agnosticism (posts by nothing/hatty)... this
is beginning to get confusing ;-)
Of course, some things which appear to be paranormal have perfectly normal
explanations, like the time I was convinced my car had magically developed its
own interior smoke machine, but in fact I just had the air con down too low...
shame really :-(
Aidan Skinner
>and still believe in matters which are commonly thought of as "supernatural" or
>"paranormal", which are both IMO terms humankind has invented to make itself
Something which exists cannot, by definition, be "supernatural", if it
exists it's natural in one way or another. I could see an argument for
it being applied to elements which don't occur naturally (those ones
at the right of the bottom row of the periodic table) but even then
I'd probably dispute it.
It's one of those words which is misused so horribly that it really
gets on my nerves.
- Aidan
--
http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk/aidan/
http://www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/WebSoc/~9704075s/
"I could always suspend a few hundred accounts and watch what happens"
Pete Scathe
>Samantha wrote:
>
>> >> I was trying to say that the truth about (IMHO) goth is that it IS
>> >antisocial,
>>
>> I have to say I can see it only as purely social..what is a goth
>> without other goths? just a person in too much make up and strange
>> clothes.
>
>Hmm, I have to disagree with that one.
Likewise, if only to chip in that "What is a goth?" is almost as futile
a question as "What is goth?".
Pete Scathe
>
>Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws ourselves
>up.
>
Eh?
(if you can do that, I'm in trouble...)
Pete Scathe
> I haven't been to a McBastards in over 15
>years
Likewise, though for me it's more a case of vegetarian ethics...
Dave (Exile)
> Something which exists cannot, by definition, be "supernatural", if it
> exists it's natural in one way or another. I could see an argument for
> it being applied to elements which don't occur naturally (those ones
> at the right of the bottom row of the periodic table) but even then
> I'd probably dispute it.
>
> It's one of those words which is misused so horribly that it really
> gets on my nerves.
If you notice, I did actually place inverted commas around the word
"supernatural"... but even so I think you're being a bit pedantic here - what I
meant was clear enough. Many words don't bear close analysis when dissected -
they are a means of communication, not a rigid specification.
You seem to be considering existence in material terms. I'm talking about
things that exist but have no material presence, ie. energies (and yes, I do
know the Theory of Relativity and sufficient quantum mechanics, but read on).
I'm particularly thinking of energies which human science would dictate cannot
exist, or at best is unable to explain. I'm not sure the ToR etc. would apply
to these. Incidentally, these things are IMO far more "natural" than some of
the results produced by modern science (synthesized elements and genetic
modification are extreme examples). They have been around far longer and have
not been developed by mankind, who most would agree have become very far
removed from "nature" in the sense I am referring to. Yes, if you want to be
pedantic, you could say genetic engineering etc. is "natural" as it is a are
results of human evolution, but I don't think that it's particularly helpful to
do so - it would just be using definitions of words to cloud the issue. The
point that some things are beyond explanation by human science still remains,
regardless of what words are used to express it.
Anyway, this has all gone a bit OT for a goth newsgroup, so I'll leave it
there.
"How do we tell the people in the white coats
enough is enough?"
NMA - White Coats
Jodi
>nothing <not...@CHEESE.bigfoot.com> wrote
>
>> I haven't been to a McBastards in over 15
>>years
>
>Likewise, though for me it's more a case of vegetarian ethics...
..and if I did eat meat, I wouldn't eat that!
When I started this thread, I didn't mean to imply that people on here
actually eat at McDonalds - I was referring to the population at large.
The bloody things are everywhere and there's always huge queues.
Also please note that I am Canadian and therefore have a lifetime's
worth of practice at ranting about people swallowing American culture
wholeheartedly. One of the reasons I moved over here was that there was
some resistance. That was 10 years ago and things have changed a lot
though.
Sciamachy
wrote:
>Sure, the Americans can take their money and start new branches, but
>last time I checked, we aren't forced to use this stuff.
Quiet right, but OTOH, companies from the US have an advantage in the
mainly US-dominated mass media. People from all over the world have
perceptions of the British as cold, unsmiling people, until they come
here and meet us. Where do they get these perceptions if they haven't
met us? Hollywood films are one very large factor. As English actors
seem only to be able to get parts as cold-hearted killers, criminals,
etc, we look bad in the eyes of people from other countries. It's
irritating and annoying to have Americans constantly shoving this bad
image of ourselves down our necks. You might say that we have a choice
- don't watch the films, but the market dominance of Hollywood's
product, with their ability to spend amounts equivalent to a small
country's defence budget on special effects alone, have reduced the
British film industry to a pathetic state, forced to go to large media
companies, often based in the US, for funding. Hence the fact that
even in UK-made films we have the obligatory American hero or heroine.
If you accept that the US film industry has an influence over those
who view the films, you must be able to see that there are huge
opportunities therein for advertising, product placement and so forth.
America practically invented the concept of marketing. If your product
is more visible, has a glamourous image, is used by the childhood
heroes of the target population, and due to aggressive pricing
strategies, is cheaper than the home-grown product, it is not long
before the home-grown product is bought out by the US competitor, or
is merely driven out of business. Then the prices can come up.
Actually, in the case of McDonalds food and Gap clothing, these are
more expensive than the home-grown equivalents in many cases. Now, I
could be wrong about this but ISTR that when McDonalds first came to
this country, they were selling a handful of french fries for the same
price (about 60p IIRC) as a large bag of chips from the local chip
shop. Gap's current prices are in some cases nearly twice that of
their US stores, taking into account exchange rates and so on.
However, both McDonalds and Gap have enormous advertising budgets,
financed centrally. Although each McDonalds store is a franchise and
therefore if it fails, it's no skin off McDonalds Corporation's nose,
their advertising is done for them by McDonalds Corp. Thus a business
which individually, on the franchise level, has only as much funding
as the local chip shop, has many, many more times the advertising
clout. The adverts themselves are aimed primarily at getting kids to
pester their parents to get them McDonalds, and small children are
very much susceptible to advertising.
A person's identity used to be about what he or she /did/ - they were
a coalminer, a farmer, a lorry driver, a doctor or whatever. This
seems to have been replaced by what they /have/ - they're a person
with a mansion, a house, a flat, a car, a motorbike etc. More recently
still, they are what brands they own: a Ferarri driver, a Skoda driver
- they wear Gap, they wear Versace, they wear M&S. The quality of the
goods themselves matters less than the illusion of the kind of
lifestyle ownership of particular brands as opposed to other brands
confers - an illusory lifestyle that is put about by the advertising
campaigns of the companies that sell the products.
I've nothing against American people, but the situation regarding US
cultural imperialism makes me spit. It's globalisation without respect
for local diversity. I read today about a film they're making of Ted
Hughes' "The Iron Man", a story I read when I was a small
boy.(http://www.irongiant.com) Hughes, a Yorkshireman, famous for his
stark, wild poetry, wrote "The Iron Man" as a story to comfort his
kids after the suicide of their mother and his wife, Sylvia Plath. The
story is of a lonely farm-boy, Hogarth, who discovers an immense Iron
Man. The Iron Man doesn't have any explicit origin - he just emerges
from the Sea, covered in rust, and with his eyes blazing with some
internal fire. There is very little about the Iron Man that displays
human characteristics - he doesn't smile, talk or anything. He just
eats tractors, which gets the locals to set a trap for him. The new
film has taken the bare bones of this, and stripped away the stark
beauty of it. The Iron Man falls from Outer Space into an American
town, where he is befriended by a kid called Hogarth, whose mum is a
waitress at a diner, and who has a Beatnik friend played by Harry
Connick Junior. The Iron Man smiles, laughs, and displays all sorts of
human characteristics. I despair. I wonder if the Egyptians feel like
this when they watch their kids watch "Prince of Egypt" and accept the
Disney version of their own history as having more value than the real
thing.
(Apologies to any Americans whose toes I may have trodden on - it's
not you individually or personally, it's the whole economic set-up and
situation I object to)
Matt
Sciamachy
wanted to be God) wrote:
>i wish theyd take up some of the newer chain type foodie outlets that
>do more healthy alternatives like wraps and bagels etc....
>
>the only wraps i ever see are prechilled ones in boots/services with
>meat fillings.
Actually, Barnet has a "Canadian Bagel Experience" which does
absolutely divine bagels, freshly-made on the premises.
(and before anyone takes issue about my earlier rant and calls me a
hypocrite, they are a fairly small chain and as far as I'm concerned
are not even close to the kind of socioeconomic monster that McDonalds
et al represent to me)
Matt
Kevin O' Gorman
>ODing on music?
>Eh?
Yep, that's the first symptom.
K.
-
--
The Love Generation failed! The Mayhem Generation is go!
Silly hex addresses are dead! Long live http://stunbunny.org/!
Tom Sulston
> Also please note that I am Canadian and therefore have a lifetime's
> worth of practice at ranting about people swallowing American culture
> wholeheartedly. One of the reasons I moved over here was that there was
> some resistance. That was 10 years ago and things have changed a lot
> though.
Fear not, there are small pockets of real-ale guzzling,
marmite-munching, cricket watching (hmmm, another total collapse
/again/) cultural snobs dotted about the place. :)
--
Tom Sulston ICQ# 31612067 Mr_Tom on #agf
- http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~bsumq -
Not bitchy, just snobbish and intolerant
Whisky Dave
Jodi <jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3840de7...@news.demon.co.uk...
> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 05:45:35 +0000, Pete Scathe wrote:
>
> >nothing <not...@CHEESE.bigfoot.com> wrote
> >
> >> I haven't been to a McBastards in over 15
> >>years
> >
> >Likewise, though for me it's more a case of vegetarian ethics...
>
>
> ..and if I did eat meat, I wouldn't eat that!
I haven't for around 3 years but I think I had a spice bean burger at
Burger
king this year, I wished I hadn't though.
>
> Also please note that I am Canadian and therefore have a lifetime's
> worth of practice at ranting about people swallowing American culture
> wholeheartedly. One of the reasons I moved over here was that there was
> some resistance. That was 10 years ago and things have changed a lot
> though.
True, now we're all labeled racists if we try to protect or stand up for
British values.
nothing
god...@twisted.org.uk picked up a chunky crayon and scribbled...
> Jodi wrote:
>
> >
> >So true. If the British really hate American culture and values so
> >much, why is this country as overrun with Burger Kings, McDonalds,
> >that won't go near any of these establishments than Brits...
> >
> i wish theyd take up some of the newer chain type foodie outlets that
> do more healthy alternatives like wraps and bagels etc....
Bagels with cream cheese... <drool>
> the only wraps i ever see are prechilled ones in boots/services with
> meat fillings.
Or some bizarro chilli or curry concoction which is far too hot for my
sensitive tastes. And they cost a fortune.
> the UK has such a vast market for healthier fast food, yet what do we
> get? subway, where everything is just grossly unexciting, wendys...
> etc.
>
> >Sure, the Americans can take their money and start new branches, but
> >last time I checked, we aren't forced to use this stuff.
>
> i only resort to mcdonalds these days if im starving cos fries are
> about the only fast food left on my acceptable fast food plan.
I suppose that expanded polystyrene is considered veggie... ;)
--
nothing
Whisky Dave
Alex Page <grim...@twisted.gothicdreams.net> wrote in message
news:383ea959...@news.mcc.ac.uk...> > Mix art with decadence and you can get some stunning results. Goth in a
> > nutshell ??
>
> No, baby, this is goth in a nutshell:
>
> "Help, help, I'm in this nutshell! What a ridiculous and futile
> concept. Everyone knows you don't get nutshells this big.
But you can get very small goths. :)
Whisky Dave
Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CqUKQeAM...@scathe.demon.co.uk...
> Whisky Dave <d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote
> >
> >Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws
ourselves
> >up.
> >
> ODing on music?
>
> Eh?
>
> (if you can do that, I'm in trouble...)
Maybe you're close but not that close. :)
You know about religion.
I mean there are some people that only have one main topic of conversation,
football, music, computers, 'art' trainspotting.
It;s not just drugs that make people miss out on the other parts of life.
Rob Ingram
god...@twisted.org.uk (The Girl who wanted to be God) writes:
> i only resort to mcdonalds these days if im starving cos fries are
> about the only fast food left on my acceptable fast food plan.
So in the country that invented the chippy you'd rather eat the scrawny
reheated McDonalds American things? Proper chips are almost healthy,
McDonalds fries certainly aren't.
Rob.
PIPALUKI
>But you can get very small goths.
Little Alex chap from Slimes ??
FilthY Rikky
NP: "Cathy"- Altered States.
Pete Scathe
>Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>ODing on music?
>
>>Eh?
>
>Yep, that's the first symptom.
>
and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
Pete Scathe
>
>Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:CqUKQeAM...@scathe.demon.co.uk...
>> Whisky Dave <d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote
>> >
>> >Any studid acts such as ODing on drink, drugs, music only screws
>ourselves
>> >up.
>> >
>> ODing on music?
>>
>> Eh?
>>
>> (if you can do that, I'm in trouble...)
>
>Maybe you're close but not that close. :)
Oh good...
>You know about religion.
>
>I mean there are some people that only have one main topic of conversation,
>football, music, computers, 'art' trainspotting.
...students? :)
>It;s not just drugs that make people miss out on the other parts of life.
>
True.
Graham Clark
> But no chance of being anonymous on upg.
> Unless you're a complete hermit.
Dont' knock it. It works for me.
G.
--
Next Calling : 30th November
12345678902234567890323456789042345678905234567890623456789072345678908234567890
Miriam McDonald
> (Apologies to any Americans whose toes I may have trodden on - it's
> not you individually or personally, it's the whole economic set-up and
> situation I object to)
<snip Matt's comments>
There's always going to be one culture more dominant than another, though
- in the nineteenth century it was a free-for-all between the British,
French and Germans. In the first century it was the Romans (in Europe, at
any rate). If you distance yourself, it's kind of funny to watch we Brits
getting in a stew about cultural imperialism, given that we have been
among the worse culprits in the past.
US culture will not always be dominant. It will die down, and our culture
will retain elements of it, but it won't swamp us entirely any more than
the British swamped India or the Russians did Estonia. Then we'll have
something else to influence us. China, perhaps, or India. Quick! Take the
good bits from the US while it lasts ;-)
Mim
Paul Kinsler
>> But no chance of being anonymous on upg.
Oh yeah? Hands up everyone who's met me then.
#Paul
Marc Elston
>
> US culture will not always be dominant. It will die down, and our culture
> will retain elements of it, but it won't swamp us entirely any more than
> the British swamped India or the Russians did Estonia. Then we'll have
> something else to influence us. China, perhaps, or India. Quick! Take the
> good bits from the US while it lasts ;-)
>
I wish we'd get influenced more by the Japanese, though. Just imagine how
wonderfully eccentric the nation would be if the best parts of English and
Japanese culture were put together.
--
Now taking lots of antibiotics so I don't rave and foam at the mouth :)
Kevin O' Gorman
>Then you start sprouting long black hair, all your clothes turn black
>and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
I just had the strangest vision of a pervy werewolf coalman.
Now if he'd been singing of Mount Abora I'd've been sorted.
Alex Page
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Then you start sprouting long black hair, all your clothes turn black
> and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
<Carter>You Goth Bastard! You Goth Bastard!</Carter>
Actually, that would be an amusing reworking to do... as long as you
matched it with musical talent (sorry, Libertina!)
Alex
--
"We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you... so we're going to tell you."
- The Irony Badgers
MancGoff: http://www.gothicdreams.net/grimoire
PyroJames
> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:19:19 +0000, Pete Scathe
> <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Then you start sprouting long black hair, all your clothes turn black
> > and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
>
> <Carter>You Goth Bastard! You Goth Bastard!</Carter>
>
Your liver gives up,
You wear a little black cape,
And without any warning at all,
You're suddenly a Goth Bastard!
--
PyroJames
Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets.
Whisky Dave
Miriam McDonald <miriam....@futurenet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3843B3C1...@futurenet.co.uk...
>
> <snip Matt's comments>
> There's always going to be one culture more dominant than another, though
> - in the nineteenth century it was a free-for-all between the British,
> French and Germans. In the first century it was the Romans (in Europe, at
> any rate). If you distance yourself, it's kind of funny to watch we Brits
> getting in a stew about cultural imperialism, given that we have been
> among the worse culprits in the past.
Although there's not many cultures that haven't done a similar thing.
I do get a bit pissed off at people who expect me to pay for the crimes
of my forefathers. How many people get prosecuted for the crimes of there
father.
> US culture will not always be dominant. It will die down, and our culture
> will retain elements of it, but it won't swamp us entirely any more than
> the British swamped India or the Russians did Estonia. Then we'll have
> something else to influence us. China, perhaps, or India. Quick! Take the
> good bits from the US while it lasts ;-)
OK I'll get my Star Trek tapes together, that leaves everything else for
the rest of you, I'm ouua here :-)
Whisky Dave
Marc Elston <marce...@nospam.netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3843b...@einstien.netscapeonline.co.uk...
>
> I wish we'd get influenced more by the Japanese, though. Just imagine how
> wonderfully eccentric the nation would be if the best parts of English
and
> Japanese culture were put together.
Sushi in batter , chips, ketchup and onion vinigar
Now that's what I call a joining of cultures ;-)
>
Whisky Dave
> Kevin O' Gorman <spi...@maths.tcd.ie> wrote
> >Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >>ODing on music?
> >
> >>Eh?
> >
> >Yep, that's the first symptom.
> >
> and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
Don't worry it's only considered a terminal condition
once you start running your own club.
opps.
Steve Slimelight
--
"In the middle of the night, you don't know what I'm thinking,
but the stars still sparkle and shine
Seems like all of the time, our boat was slowly sinking,
and you didn't even seem to mind
Now all I want to do is sleep..."
DJ Steve (Slimelight Club, London) URL: http://www.slimelight.com
Revolution By Night are sponsored by inflatable penguins ltd.
Paul Kinsler
> Paul Kinsler wrote: "Oh yeah? Hands up everyone who's met me then."
>
> me
Ooo, I've met the great S.Slimelight :). Apparently. Damned if
I know where though... sure you haven't mistaken me for somebody
else?
#Paul
Pete Scathe
>Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>Then you start sprouting long black hair, all your clothes turn black
>>and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
>
>
(http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/pete85.htm)
>Now if he'd been singing of Mount Abora I'd've been sorted.
>
Indeed. Yes. Sorry?
Pete Scathe
>> >
>> >>Eh?
>> >
>> >Yep, that's the first symptom.
>> >
>> and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
>
>once you start running your own club.
>
>opps.
>
(I haven't had the lobotomy yet...)
Pete Scathe
>> and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
>
>
Yup- seeing as it isn't an 80s pop song, it might even get my blessing!
> as long as you
>matched it with musical talent
Now that could be the difficult part...
Captain M
<snip>
> US culture will not always be dominant. It will die down, and our culture
> will retain elements of it, but it won't swamp us entirely any more than
> the British swamped India or the Russians did Estonia. Then we'll have
> something else to influence us. China, perhaps, or India.
It looks like US culture, or more specifically US-centred transnational
corporational culture, will be dominant for a long time to come. This
juggernaut continues to hurtle across the world with ever growing
momentum, crushing all before it, and nobody can work the brakes.
The World Trade Organization (WTO) is at this very moment convening in
Seattle with the explicit aim of removing what few effective restraints
remain in the multinationals' path. Among the 'barriers to free trade'
which the delegates to this conference are clamouring to remove are
protection for the world's forests from the voracious appetites of the
logging companies, controls on pollution and resistance from countries
trying to preserve their cultures. It's not just a few crusties who are
over there protesting, but a broad range of individuals and groups from
across the world who are deeply concerned at the transnationals' all
conquering activities. Unfortunately, there's a depressing sense of
certainty that resistance is futile and everything will end up being assimilated.
The 'globalization' banner so beloved by our politicians effectively
means the imposition of a monoculture across the planet – the high
streets from London to Lima to Lagos will all sport the same names and
brands. All power will be vested in the likes of Coca-Cola, Muckdonalds
and Disney or a handful of individuals such as Murdoch and Gates:
individual nations and governments will mean very little.
Perhaps something else will indeed come along and replace the corporate
monoculture, but probably only after the world has fallen apart as the
dominant multinationals fight it out between themselves over control of
dwindling natural resources. World War III and perhaps even nuclear
armageddon may be fought by competing commercial concerns rather than by
rival superpower countries.
Captain M (spreading doom and despondency as always, but hey it's nearly
Christmas, the prospect of which always makes me depressed)
Dave (Exile)
> Whisky Dave <d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote
> >
> >Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:m0jIGyCH...@scathe.demon.co.uk...
> >> Kevin O' Gorman <spi...@maths.tcd.ie> wrote
> >> >Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >> >>ODing on music?
> >> >
> >> >>Eh?
> >> >
> >> >Yep, that's the first symptom.
> >> >
> >> and you have this odd desire to hang around goth clubs?
> >
> >once you start running your own club.
> >
> >opps.
> >
> Well, I'm not a club manager yet so I'm not quite there!
*shuffles about furtively*
> (I haven't had the lobotomy yet...)
If your PA guys were as reliable as our last lot, you'd need replacement
fingernails as well...
> (Next Resurgence: 19th December)
Latest count for my section of the London convoy is 4...
-------
Dave
next Exile: Saturday 4th December
web site http://www.drischmi.dircon.co.uk/exile
Steve Slimelight
reviews for Low Life fanzine then I met you at the Bristol Mauretania in
1993 when my band at the time played there, and the said person also
wrote a review of said gig which appeared in said fanzine.
Either that or they had the same name as you, or since I'm remembering
this off the top of my head, I've got the name wrong in which case I am
mistaking you for someone else!
or something...
Steve.
--
DeepFix
<d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>True, now we're all labeled racists if we try to protect or stand up for
>British values.
What exactly are 'British values'?
DeepFix www.destroy.co.uk ICQ: 31621818
'He let it ring 5 times, then hung up. His buyer
for the 3 megabytes of hot RAM in the Hitachi wasn't
taking calls.' - W. Gibson - Neuromancer - 1983
Paul Kinsler
> On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:09:41 -0000, "Whisky Dave"
They aren't "exactly" anything. They're a sort of amorphous
cloud of vaguely related stuff that is often self contradictory,
as they are a compendium of values held by the various people
of British nationality. They differ, however, from French values,
Russian values, or other sorts of national values in a way that
can seem sort of convincing, but which is hard to pin down.
#Paul
Paul Kinsler
> if you are the Paul Kinsler who used to live in Bristol and [..]
Not me! :-p
#Paul, anonymously.
PIPALUKI
>What exactly are 'British values'?
1. "It.s more than my job's worth mate"
2. "Still, at least they gave us Curry"
3. "That Steve off Eastenders, 'e's evil e is"
4. "You wait half an hour and then three come along at once"
5. "I only read it for the sport"
6. "Steps are great but I prefer the Spice Girls"
7. "innit"
8. "I pay your wages young man"
9. "bloody weather"
10. "This train will now be terminating at the next station"
Filthy Rikky
NP: Type O Negative: "world coming down"
PIPALUKI
>> if you are the Paul Kinsler who used to live in Bristol and [..]
>Not me! :-p
>
I think you an I are the only ones left from those days Steve... other than
Pete Scathe obviously.
We're from the pre-perkian era.
Filthy Rikky
Saiira
But Steve is an honorary perky goth.......even if he is old and past it
:oP
Saiira
^..^
"Don't you find it even remotely worrying that the fish are swimming
over the cat like that?"
Lily
>1. "It.s more than my job's worth mate"
>
>2. "Still, at least they gave us Curry"
>
>3. "That Steve off Eastenders, 'e's evil e is"
>
>4. "You wait half an hour and then three come along at once"
>
>5. "I only read it for the sport"
>
>6. "Steps are great but I prefer the Spice Girls"
>
>7. "innit"
>
>8. "I pay your wages young man"
>
>9. "bloody weather"
>
>10. "This train will now be terminating at the next station"
11. "I fought the war for the likes of you"
Lily - Spooky Scouse
********************
http://www.mockingbird.clara.net
********************************
Sciamachy
<miriam....@futurenet.co.uk> wrote:
>There's always going to be one culture more dominant than another, though
>- in the nineteenth century it was a free-for-all between the British,
>French and Germans. In the first century it was the Romans (in Europe, at
>any rate). If you distance yourself, it's kind of funny to watch we Brits
>getting in a stew about cultural imperialism, given that we have been
>among the worse culprits in the past.
I quite agree, although you can't blame me for objecting to it any
more than you could blame the Indians under British rule for wanting
rid of us. It's still a form of imperialism. What's more, with the US
media product, we the customers are continually being told how crap we
are. You wouldn't take that in a shop, but then, you'd expect there to
be other shops you could go to. It's like the situation with credit
"checks" and contract mobile phones - because they all treat you like
a pariah if say you moved house a year or two ago, and then again a
few months ago, you have no choice but take the crap they hand you or
abstain completely.
>US culture will not always be dominant. It will die down, and our culture
>will retain elements of it, but it won't swamp us entirely any more than
>the British swamped India or the Russians did Estonia. Then we'll have
>something else to influence us. China, perhaps, or India. Quick! Take the
>good bits from the US while it lasts ;-)
I'm quite looking forward to China being the dominant thing. Actually,
no. I've just thought: whilst we were being the dominant culture back
in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, we were also absorbing much
of the cultures we were dominating. We got things like yoghurt,
curries, sushi, dim sum, Zen, Taoism and so on from people outside our
own culture - an absolute shedload from the Indian subcontinent,
elements of vocabulary from Africa, Asia, even as far as the South-Sea
Islands. If another culture dominates us, it's like a voice in a crowd
that's so loud you can't hear anyone else hardly at all. And because
the other cultures of the world are experiencing the same thing from
the same source, their voices may soon become replaced by the same one
we hear emanating from America. It's a lack of balance. Whilst we
dominated certain areas in the 19th century, we were balanced out by
the French, Germans, Dutch, and others. There doesn't seem to be the
same thing now as there was then to balance things out.
Matt
Sciamachy
wrote:
>The World Trade Organization (WTO) is at this very moment convening in
>Seattle with the explicit aim of removing what few effective restraints
>remain in the multinationals' path. Among the 'barriers to free trade'
>which the delegates to this conference are clamouring to remove are
[snippety]
Bingo - couldn't have put it better myself, though not for want of
trying.
Matt
Kevin O' Gorman
>DeepFix <des...@btinternet.com.delete> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:09:41 -0000, "Whisky Dave"
>> What exactly are 'British values'?
>They aren't "exactly" anything. They're a sort of amorphous
From my personal experience, traditional *English* values basically
involve simultaneously despising and fearing the Irish. But I
only rarely get this reaction from an english person under the age
of 40, so here's hoping you can stamp it out in the next generation
or two.
HiRez
>
> Whisky Dave wondered:
>
> >What exactly are 'British values'?
[ ... ]
Ten of f-ing things I f-ing hate about f-ing London.
Well done. You've distilled everything small-minded, spiteful, stupid
and cheerfully passive-agressive about this shite-arse little country
and its twatty, tourist-infested, ugly crapital.
Though you missed out "Still, mustn't grumble" and the
fuckwitted-classes lickspittle devotion to those Hanoverian bastards who
really should be decorating lamp-posts by now.
Tell me again. Why on *earth* do I live here?
--
J "Really quite annoyed" H-R
Kevin O' Gorman
>the French, Germans, Dutch, and others. There doesn't seem to be the
>same thing now as there was then to balance things out.
The next age is the Ice-cream Age, easily licked.
K. "Name that tune in two"
zog...@home.com
Pete Scathe
>> >
>> Well, I'm not a club manager yet so I'm not quite there!
>
>*shuffles about furtively*
>
since I'm not a licensee or anything!
>> (I haven't had the lobotomy yet...)
>
>If your PA guys were as reliable as our last lot, you'd need replacement
>fingernails as well...
>
Believe me, I've had enough trouble with PAs before!
It's when the smoke starts coming out you've got to worry!
>> (Next Resurgence: 19th December)
>
>Latest count for my section of the London convoy is 4...
>
Yay! Cool!
Paul Kinsler
> 11. "I fought the war for the likes of you"
And generally speaking they did and all. It's just a shame
for them that they didn't realise at the time they were
fighting the war to allow people the chance to turn into
weirdo's. ;-)
#Paul
Tal
<snip>
>fuckwitted-classes lickspittle devotion to those Hanoverian bastards who
>really should be decorating lamp-posts by now.
I love it. The politicians have _such_ a beautiful scam going here.
Most of the UK actually seems to have your attitude. Me, I'd like to
kick the fuckers who actually screw our country over. You know, the
ones WITH power... not those poor bastards whom you so delicately
refer to.
Tal
Steve Slimelight
> >
> > ><st...@slimelight.com> wrote:
> > >> if you are the Paul Kinsler who used to live in Bristol and [..]
> >
> > >Not me! :-p
> > >
> >
> > I think you an I are the only ones left from those days Steve... other > than Pete Scathe obviously.
> >
> > We're from the pre-perkian era.
>
> But Steve is an honorary perky goth.......even if he is old and past it
> :oP
There's a fair few older than me my dear!!!!!! :-P
Such as our dear Mr Scathe and Loki to name but two.
S.
PyroJames
Tal <t...@irkar.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:384942b3...@news.demon.co.uk...
Two men, both in media related fields.
Bill f****** Gates
Rupert f****** Murdoch.
--
PyroJames
Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets.
nothing
des...@btinternet.com.delete picked up a chunky crayon and
scribbled...
> What exactly are 'British values'?
The pound (lb), the stone (st), the Pound (£) and the hundredweight
(cwt)? :)))
--
nothing
nothing
t...@irkar.nospam.demon.co.uk picked up a chunky crayon and
scribbled...
> On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 23:37:55 +0000, HiRez <hi...@netcity.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >fuckwitted-classes lickspittle devotion to those Hanoverian bastards who
> >really should be decorating lamp-posts by now.
>
> I love it. The politicians have _such_ a beautiful scam going here.
> Most of the UK actually seems to have your attitude. Me, I'd like to
> kick the fuckers who actually screw our country over. You know, the
> ones WITH power... not those poor bastards whom you so delicately
> refer to.
I reckon there should be a law to the effect of 'any person that wants
to be involved in politics is obviously of unsound mind and therefore
shouldn't be allowed to get involved.'
Saying that, I don't quite know how politicians should be chosen.
Maybe picked out of a phone book by a monkey with a pin? We could do
worse...
--
nothing
PyroJames
The Girl who wanted to be God <god...@twisted.org.uk> wrote in message
news:385862fe...@news.demon.co.uk...
> PyroJames wrote:
>
> >Two men, both in media related fields.
> >
> >Bill f****** Gates
> >
> >Rupert f****** Murdoch.
>
> accepting what you cant change.
*reels*
*reads it again*
*reels again*
Whao! That's getting a bit deep init? =:)
But as far as things I can/can't change go, I am stuck with Dear Mr Gates,
because he has a bit of a momopoly running, and although I don't subscribe
to Dear Mr Murdoch's brainwashing, I do live in a society that does. It
just makes me what to have less and less to do with that society. Hence a
goth living in the academic world, or not living in normal society at all
when I get the chance. Oh and being nice to the little people of course. :)
>
> dont let your lives be filled with hate of others, just accept that
> they will always be around and fill your life with appreciation for
> that which is still beautiful in our world. Dont be consumed with
> anger... fight it with kindness and love and standing up for the
> little people in the world. :)
>
*staggering around mentally drunk from such wisdom*
Hey, you don't do counselling do you? I could do with a nice friendly,
understanding counsellor to take me away from reality. :)
>
> ....god, do i sound like ive been taking mushrooms or something?
>
Yes.
> ive not yet had me brekkie, honest!
>
Do I want to know what your breakfast involves?
PyroJames
nothing <not...@CHEESE.bigfoot.com> wrote in message
<snip>
>
> I reckon there should be a law to the effect of 'any person that wants
> to be involved in politics is obviously of unsound mind and therefore
> shouldn't be allowed to get involved.'
>
Beeblebrox (sp?) mean everything to you? :)
nothing
J.Ke...@SPAMcranfield.ac.uk picked up a chunky crayon and
scribbled...
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I reckon there should be a law to the effect of 'any person that wants
> > to be involved in politics is obviously of unsound mind and therefore
> > shouldn't be allowed to get involved.'
> >
> Have you been reading Douglas Adams a bit too much perhaps? Zaphod
> Beeblebrox (sp?) mean everything to you? :)
Erm... no. I listened to the radio show when I was young(er)...
Why, is it something he's likely to have said? And with which head?
:)
--
nothing
PyroJames
> Upon the e-scroll of <38468...@news.cranfield.ac.uk>,
> J.Ke...@SPAMcranfield.ac.uk picked up a chunky crayon and
> scribbled...
> >
> > Beeblebrox (sp?) mean everything to you? :)
>
> Erm... no. I listened to the radio show when I was young(er)...
>
> Why, is it something he's likely to have said? And with which head?
> :)
>
themselves elected President of the Galaxy is the least fit to rule it",
hence the result that the galaxy is ruled by a hermit in a small shed who
doesn't believe that the galaxy exists! And Zaphod just exists to draw
attention away from those who realy have the power.
And yes I have been reading far too much Douglas Adams. I admit it.
Whisky Dave
DeepFix <des...@btinternet.com.delete> wrote in message
news:38464dfc...@news.btinternet.com...
> On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:09:41 -0000, "Whisky Dave"
>
> >True, now we're all labeled racists if we try to protect or stand up for
> >British values.
>
Being able to have black coffee, golliwogs on your jam jar,
being able to hold the union jack without being called racist.
The right to set the laws in our own country that othersd must adhere
to. It's all a bit nebuluoius we have lost so much including being proud to
British is no longer allowed.