Enigma
dave
There appears to be some confusion in the media as to which Enigma machine
it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a submarine
in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
Whilst on this subject, whilst the early ones and those taken under adverse
conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the Enigma's
that would have been captured later in the war ?
dave
RN Communications Branch 1963-1974
+
David Pipes
reeserve.co.uk> writes
>There appears to be some confusion in the media as to which Enigma machine
>it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
>stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a submarine
>in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
It was an Abwehr machine, origination not made public AFAIK. See
http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/press.htm#theft
for further info.
I seem to recall there were two at BP, one which you could actually
'play on'
>
>Whilst on this subject, whilst the early ones and those taken under adverse
>conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the Enigma's
>that would have been captured later in the war ?
Destroyed to prevent them falling in to the wrong hands?
--
David Pipes
da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
Dave Page
"dave" <da...@dominosafety.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8rs6fc$8f9$3...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Sorry, it isn't me that has it
>
> it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
> stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a submarine
> in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
>
adverse
> conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the
Enigma's
> that would have been captured later in the war ?
In order to prevent the Germans being able to reform and reuse any equipment
in any way at the end of the war, most of them had a large hammer put
through them, AFAIK.
Dave
Jim Donaghie
Dave Page wrote in message <8rt0a9$ine$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
As for Dave's comments re German equipment being smashed up at the end of
the war, Commcen Germany at Rheindahlen was still using mainly German WWII
kit as late as 1977.
Not sure which company made them but the receive and re-perf machines were
"Drelo's", a wonderful bit of kit, Meccano for grown ups, they had a
tendency to overheat and would occasionally burst into flames in the
summertime. The printers were Heidelbergers, metal cases on solid steel
chassis, so heavy that we had to have a trolley to wheel them around the
Commcen. They looked more like one-arm bandits than printers.
Regards
Jim
Glyn Davies
David Pipes <Da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tZJ9peA5$c45...@windsorsociety.freeserve.co.uk...
> In article <8rs6fc$8f9$3...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, dave <dave@dominosafety.f
> reeserve.co.uk> writes
>
machine
> >it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
> >stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a
submarine
> >in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
> http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/press.htm#theft
> for further info.
>
> I seem to recall there were two at BP, one which you could actually
> 'play on'
> >
adverse
> >conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the
Enigma's
> >that would have been captured later in the war ?
More than one machine was captured that is for sure. On a recent
documentary it was stated that we lost the means to decipher the enigma
codes for a while because the OKH had introduced a new machine with extra
code wheels. I can't remember how they cracked that one but I have a sneaky
suspicion they half inched one of the new machines from one of those naughty
Germans.
GD
> --
> David Pipes
> da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
Glyn Davies
Jim Donaghie <jim.do...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:iksE5.24226$uq5.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> Dave Page wrote in message <8rt0a9$ine$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
> >
> >"dave" <da...@dominosafety.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:8rs6fc$8f9$3...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> Sorry, it isn't me that has it
> >>
> machine
> >> it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
> >> stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a
> submarine
> >> in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
> >>
> >adverse
> >> conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the
> >Enigma's
> >> that would have been captured later in the war ?
> >
> equipment
> >in any way at the end of the war, most of them had a large hammer put
> >through them, AFAIK.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >> dave
> >> RN Communications Branch 1963-1974
> >> +
> >>
> There was at least one Enigma machine at RAF Locking in the 1980's.
>
> As for Dave's comments re German equipment being smashed up at the end of
> the war, Commcen Germany at Rheindahlen was still using mainly German WWII
> kit as late as 1977.
The NAAFI at Rheindalen was still selling WWII sandwiches as well.
Dave Page
> "Drelo's", a wonderful bit of kit, Meccano for grown ups, they had a
> tendency to overheat and would occasionally burst into flames in the
> summertime. The printers were Heidelbergers, metal cases on solid steel
> chassis, so heavy that we had to have a trolley to wheel them around the
> Commcen. They looked more like one-arm bandits than printers.
>
> Regards
>
> Jim
Sorry, I should have been more specific!
I meant equipment which had a strategic value - stuff like radio equipment,
enigmas etc.
Not all was smashed though, a few bits survived
Dave
Peter Parry
<da...@dominosafety.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Whilst on this subject, whilst the early ones and those taken under adverse
>conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the Enigma's
>that would have been captured later in the war ?
Many were destroyed when nearly all the equipment and records from
Bletchley Park were destroyed at the end of the war.
If you want to play with an Enigma there is a free small program
downloadable at:-
http://www.adelheid.demon.co.uk/enigma.html
which reproduces the way they worked.
--
Peter Parry
ex RAF Regt
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk
Doug Shore
<jim.do...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>Dave Page wrote in message <8rt0a9$ine$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>>
>>"dave" <da...@dominosafety.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:8rs6fc$8f9$3...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>> Sorry, it isn't me that has it
>>>
>>> There appears to be some confusion in the media as to which Enigma
>machine
>>> it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
>>> stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a
>submarine
>>> in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
>>>
>>> Whilst on this subject, whilst the early ones and those taken under
>>adverse
>>> conditions are of great historic interest, what happened to all the
>>Enigma's
>>> that would have been captured later in the war ?
>>
>>In order to prevent the Germans being able to reform and reuse any
>equipment
>>in any way at the end of the war, most of them had a large hammer put
>>through them, AFAIK.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>> dave
>>> RN Communications Branch 1963-1974
>>> +
>>>
>There was at least one Enigma machine at RAF Locking in the 1980's.
It was still there in 94 when I was Instructing there and It was
featured on the edition of the Antiques Roadshow that was filmed there
I guess in 97/98
>
>As for Dave's comments re German equipment being smashed up at the end of
>the war, Commcen Germany at Rheindahlen was still using mainly German WWII
>kit as late as 1977.
>Not sure which company made them but the receive and re-perf machines were
>"Drelo's", a wonderful bit of kit, Meccano for grown ups, they had a
>tendency to overheat and would occasionally burst into flames in the
>summertime. The printers were Heidelbergers, metal cases on solid steel
>chassis, so heavy that we had to have a trolley to wheel them around the
>Commcen. They looked more like one-arm bandits than printers.
>
>Regards
>
>Jim
>
>
Doug.
M.J.Powell
variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
No. The beauty of the Enigma system was that even if you had a machine
you couldn't decode a message without the 'start' position.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Steve
> David Pipes <Da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:tZJ9peA5$c45...@windsorsociety.freeserve.co.uk...
> suspicion they half inched one of the new machines from one of those
naughty
> Germans."
>
> GD
> > --
> > David Pipes
> > da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
>
>
his unlocked car overnight
Steve
Glyn Davies
M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DXFifaAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <8rtn62$asl$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Glyn Davies <glyn@lothian
> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >
> you couldn't decode a message without the 'start' position.
There was definitely a mod done on it though to increase the number of
wheels. I'm totally certain of it.
>
> Mike
> --
> M.J.Powell
David Pipes
writes
>
>> David Pipes <Da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:tZJ9peA5$c45...@windsorsociety.freeserve.co.uk...
>> suspicion they half inched one of the new machines from one of those
>naughty
>> Germans."
>>
>> GD
>> > --
>> > David Pipes
>> > da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
>>
>>
>his unlocked car overnight
>
>Steve
points to the correct author, Glyn Davis.
Thanks.
BTW, the four rotor machine introduced on U-boats on 1/2/42 was
'cracked' by Hut 8's codebreakers on 12/12/42 helped by the fact that
the four rotor machines on the U-boats had to communicate with the three
rotor machines on some shore stations. They used their machines with a
three rotor set up which Bletchley Park was able to decypher. From there
they were able to find the settings for the fourth rotor.
--
David Pipes
da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
dave
"dave" <da...@dominosafety.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8rs6fc$8f9$3...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Sorry, it isn't me that has it
>
> it is that was stolen. One report said that it was the original version
> stolen in Poland in AFAIR 1938 or the one taken by the RN from a submarine
> in 1941. So which one was it that was taken. ??
Many thanks for the interest people
I have now received a "definitive" reply via today's Times (2) page 3 with a
two page article on the subject - haven't read it all yet but it does say it
was an Enigma312 built for Germian Military intelligence. "....is
exceptionally precious. Its unusual keyboard made it one of only two of its
kind in existence"
Comes back to what happened to all the others made - feel it is exceedingly
unlikely there were only two ever made (would have made for highly
unbreakable messages) wonder who had all the production information us, the
yanks or the russians.
dave
"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:baj6us0pdk485tar9...@4ax.com...
> If you want to play with an Enigma there is a free small program
> downloadable at:-
>
> http://www.adelheid.demon.co.uk/enigma.html
>
> which reproduces the way they worked.
thanks for that Peter will give it a try tonight, but I must bite my tongue
due to the Official Secrets Act, although that is probably a load of crap
now we know what Chief Petty Officer Walker of the USN passed to the
Russians
dave
RN Communications Branch 1963 -1974
+
David Pipes
variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>There was definitely a mod done on it though to increase the number of
>wheels. I'm totally certain of it.
The Lorenz SZ40 had twelve wheels.
--
David Pipes
da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
Glyn Davies
> >> news:tZJ9peA5$c45...@windsorsociety.freeserve.co.uk...
********************************************************
> >>" I can't remember how they cracked that one but I have a sneaky
> >> suspicion they half inched one of the new machines from one of those
> >naughty
> >> Germans."
> >>
> >> GD
*********************************************************
> >> > --
> >> > David Pipes
> >> > da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
> >>
> >>
> >Perhaps some senior officer (probably Luftwaffe) left it on the train or
in
> >his unlocked car overnight
> >
> >Steve
> Please take care with quote attributes. I wrote none of the above; 'GD'
> points to the correct author, Glyn Davis.
No it doesn't. Only the part I have highlighted was written by me. BTW my
name is spelt DAVIES :-)
>
> Thanks.
>
> BTW, the four rotor machine introduced on U-boats on 1/2/42 was
> 'cracked' by Hut 8's codebreakers on 12/12/42 helped by the fact that
> the four rotor machines on the U-boats had to communicate with the three
> rotor machines on some shore stations. They used their machines with a
> three rotor set up which Bletchley Park was able to decypher. From there
> they were able to find the settings for the fourth rotor.
At least that corroborates my claim about the fourth wheel.
Glyn Davies
> In article <8rvr4o$q15$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Glyn Davies <glyn@lothian
> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
> >There was definitely a mod done on it though to increase the number of
> >wheels. I'm totally certain of it.
> The Lorenz SZ40 had twelve wheels.
Well there you go then.
Sgt.wilson
> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >
> you couldn't decode a message without the 'start' position.
>
> --
> M.J.Powell
Visited BP last year and have just started to read Robert Harris' "Enigma".
Know it's a work of fiction, but can anyone help with the coded dedication
'for Gill and for Holly and Charlie
QXQF VFLR TXLG VLWD PRUA'
I only ever QRU IMI !
M.J.Powell
variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:DXFifaAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <8rtn62$asl$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Glyn Davies <glyn@lothian
>> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> you couldn't decode a message without the 'start' position.
>
>wheels. I'm totally certain of it.
Yes, some had/used 3, some 4 and some 5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Glyn Davies
> In article <8rvr4o$q15$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Glyn Davies <glyn@lothian
> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >
> >M.J.Powell <mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:DXFifaAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
> >> In article <8rtn62$asl$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Glyn Davies
<glyn@lothian
> >> variety.fsnet.co.uk> writes
> >> >
> >> you couldn't decode a message without the 'start' position.
> >
> >There was definitely a mod done on it though to increase the number of
> >wheels. I'm totally certain of it.
>
> Yes, some had/used 3, some 4 and some 5
*puffs out chest* told you so ;-)
>
> Mike
> --
> M.J.Powell
dave
"Sgt.wilson" <Sgt.w...@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:39e4d...@news1.vip.uk.com...
> I only ever QRU IMI !
ZBO3 K
lesd...@crudespamtrap.utvinternet.com
<Sgt.w...@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote:
>Visited BP last year and have just started to read Robert Harris' "Enigma".
>Know it's a work of fiction, but can anyone help with the coded dedication
>'for Gill and for Holly and Charlie
>QXQF VFLR TXLG VLWD PRUA'
>I only ever QRU IMI !
>
Sorry. Can't help you but if you fancy a good non-fiction book
featuring BP, Enigma and the like, I can recommend the
mathematician Andrew Hodges' biography of Alan Turing. It's called
The Enigma of Intelligence and was published by Unwin Paperbacks
in the mid 1980s. It's brilliant.
To be honest I nearly didn't buy it when I read the blurb and
discovered that Hodges is homosexual, as was Turing (Prejudiced?
Me?) but the fact just provides an interesting insight, and the
book certainly doesn't go in for sordid descriptions of 'gay'
couplings.
Is BP worth a visit?
--
Les Dennis
No. Not that one
Please remove crude spam-trap if replying by e-mail
Glyn Davies
> ZBO3 K
RU12 ?
jockuk
it's a case of use it or loose it........I also would advise a visit as in
the future in an effort to secure funding they will most like comercialise
it abit and beter to see it in it's raw state. If you need any more info
mail me.
tom
ex-4RTR
Bill Davidson
lesd...@crudespamtrap.utvinternet.com wrote in message
<39e5faf7...@news.utvinternet.com>...
>On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:32:09 +0100, "Sgt.wilson"
><Sgt.w...@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Visited BP last year and have just started to read Robert Harris'
"Enigma".
>>Know it's a work of fiction, but can anyone help with the coded dedication
>>'for Gill and for Holly and Charlie
>>QXQF VFLR TXLG VLWD PRUA'
>>
>featuring BP, Enigma and the like, I can recommend the
>mathematician Andrew Hodges' biography of Alan Turing. It's called
>The Enigma of Intelligence and was published by Unwin Paperbacks
>in the mid 1980s. It's brilliant.
>
>To be honest I nearly didn't buy it when I read the blurb and
>discovered that Hodges is homosexual, as was Turing (Prejudiced?
>Me?) but the fact just provides an interesting insight, and the
>book certainly doesn't go in for sordid descriptions of 'gay'
>couplings.
>
>Is BP worth a visit?
>
>--
The authoritative work on ciphers from the Caesars till modern times was
written by Robert Kahn ("The Codebreakers") round about 1964. It was
considered so damaging that the UK slapped a 'D' notice on it and the NSA
prohibited its publication in the USA. It was serialised in 'Der Spiegal',
and thus became public domain. Whilst not part of our official course
syllabus at the R Signals Cipher School, "The Codebreakers" was somehow
available for those who were interested, at least when I was there in 1967.
Kahn mentions the Enigma in his book. I find it puzzling that we are so
interested in Enigma nowadays when it was public knowledge 35 year ago.
True, it was a triumph of intellect, but that had already been accepted
privately during WW2 and publicly afterwards - that is, after: '"The
Codebreakers".
Why are we discussing this now when we ought to know all about it?
BD
Bill Davidson
Bill Davidson
Bill Davidson
Bill Davidson
David Pipes
<bi...@davidsonw.fsnet.co.uk> writes
<Snip>
>Kahn mentions the Enigma in his book. I find it puzzling that we are so
>interested in Enigma nowadays when it was public knowledge 35 year ago.
In 1968 I was at The North Buckinghamshire College of Education at
Bletchley or, to be more precise, at Bletchley Park, in the same brick
buildings used by the codebreakers during the war - I lived in A Block.
I don't recall anyone knowing of the origins of the buildings or what
went on there. It's only been in the last five years or so that I've
become aware of the work done at BP.
>True, it was a triumph of intellect, but that had already been accepted
>privately during WW2 and publicly afterwards - that is, after: '"The
>Codebreakers".
But the book wasn't widely available, was it? I was abroad in the mid-
sixties so a bit out of touch.
>
>Why are we discussing this now when we ought to know all about it?
_Because_ we know all about it, we are able to discuss it - it would be
difficult to discuss something we know nothing of;-)
--
David Pipes
da...@pipeline35.fsnet.co.uk
Ray Watson
trap.utvinternet.com writes
<snip>
>
>Is BP worth a visit?
>
Well worth a visit IMO. A little difficult to find the entrance though.
Last time I was there I didn't see any sign pointing in its direction
and the gate is at the end of a street roadsigned as a cul de sac.
>--
>Les Dennis
--
Ray Watson - Northants - UK
lesd...@crudespamtrap.utvinternet.com
Bill Davidson
David Pipes wrote in message ...
The point I was trying to make was that the "Codebreakers" is the work that
all modern day writers and TV programme producers draw from but they never
give it credit. Kahn's book was a seminal work and caused a storm in certain
circles when it was published. If my memory serves me correctly, Kahn was an
ex-CIA analyst.
The book has been available through the public library service for more than
30 years. The fact that Enigma is of interest now has more to do with the
Internet and TV, and is a criticism of how we educate and inform ourselves
nowadays. Bletchley Park, Enigma, and the Purple Machine had been public
knowledge for decades before recent 'revelations' via TV.
I await a TV exposé of how Kasinsky's transposition solved the Viginiere
cipher. Who were they? Request Kahn's book through your local library and
find out, or wait for the TV programme!
BD
Peter Parry
<bi...@davidsonw.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>The authoritative work on ciphers from the Caesars till modern times was
>written by Robert Kahn ("The Codebreakers") round about 1964.
An excellent bibliography of such books can be found at:-
http://www.garatshay.org.uk/bibliography.htm
--
Peter Parry
ex RAF Regt
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk